Cloak has essentially been removed from the game

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane

Yeah because it's balanced when one ability performs 3 different roles: Armor buff, AoE DoT and also magelight. As perfectly balanced as streak.

Rhygam

Oh the tears of nightblades ^^
Oh also: any nightblade, actually capable, would know, it was a buff. Less abilitys pull you out now. but heeeeeeey, its always the others

MadeInVN

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane

Yeah because it's balanced when one ability performs 3 different roles: Armor buff, AoE DoT and also magelight. As perfectly balanced as streak.

If you want to go that route then it’s perfectly balanced when Surprise Attack performs 4 different roles: Armor Buff, Armor Debuff, Stun, & also deals 7-10k spammable damage. As perfectly balanced as cloak which also buffs armor, guarantees a crit heal or crit dmg, suppresses single target DoTs, and is an on demand LoS ability.

-Sarcasm off-

rbfrgsp

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

The best thing is, with being able to start a gank with a guaranteed Uppercut crit with vampire bonus to weapon damage and dealing damage from 3 skills, 1 medium attack, 1 light attack all within 1 GCD makes Cloak worth it for me.

Which is why they should have looked at the slight OP synergy with vampirism rather than nerf the Nightblade toolkit.

If vampirism weapon damage buff applied only to vampire line skills, it would be abused far less. As it is, it synergise HARD with Cloak, so the "problem solvers" reworked Cloak rather than the root cause of the problem.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane and Destro Ult can no longer be used to reveal cloaked enemies. It makes no sense, and forces you into even more narrow and build-warping tools if you want to actually fight a NB.

Yes it is ridiculous isn't it? High cost, high risk, or high skill demand skills have become worse against cloak. Meanwhile, if you just spam acid spray or spin2win, you're fine.

They have immunities almost completely the wrong way around for cloak. It should be broken by floor AoE and demand the NB plays with skill to manually evade these things. And it should work against single target and direct damage spammables to force ez -moders to take on a bit more challenge.

NagualV

I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists. I genuinely mean that, I would like an explanation. I have seen videos of highly skilled magblades who actually end up using dark cloak.

It also amazes me that sorcs who vehemently defend streak/bol(which I think is fine) turn around and say cloak is overtuned/OP. The logic they use to defend streak/bold somehow doesnt seem to apply to cloak. It sounds the same to me .

Nightblades are not hard to counter in this game. But you have to know how. The same applies to sorcs.

rbfrgsp

Rhygam wrote: »

Oh the tears of nightblades ^^
Oh also: any nightblade, actually capable, would know, it was a buff. Less abilitys pull you out now. but heeeeeeey, its always the others

Totally wrong. The changes are a buff if you're new to Nightblade, because it lets you walk in red (ie: play badly). If you took the time to play then that "buff" is valueless because you already know how to handle your character without taking free, telegraphed damage.

Meanwhile, the negates and evasions for low level spammable attacks has become flakier than ever and more randomised. It makes all combat dumb luck whether your skill combo works or not. Randomisation = low skill.

Stx

Cloak was already too powerful, and it got buffed in waking flame, not nerfed.

They also buffed reveal spells, but they are still very expensive.

MadeInVN

NagualV wrote: »

I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists. I genuinely mean that, I would like an explanation. I have seen videos of highly skilled magblades who actually end up using dark cloak.

It also amazes me that sorcs who vehemently defend streak/bol(which I think is fine) turn around and say cloak is overtuned/OP. The logic they use to defend streak/bold somehow doesnt seem to apply to cloak. It sounds the same to me .

Nightblades are not hard to counter in this game. But you have to know how. The same applies to sorcs.

I mained stamblade for 7 months and got alliance rank 32, magsorc for 6 months then converted to stamsorc main for 3 years and got alliance rank 50. I've done all types of PvP on both NB and Sorc, from dueling to 1vX, small scale to large scale, Cyrodiil to BG, and even ganking. I think I'm qualified enough to answer your question.

Magblade actually does very well in group PvP as a bomber. You'll often see full damage bombblades in an organized ball group. However, it consistently ranks near the bottom of PvP tier list for solo PvP because it lacks 2 key things:

1) A good class burst heal
2) A reliable burst combo

Most magicka classes have a good class burst heal. Necros have Resistant Flesh, Templars have Honor of the Dead, DKs have Coagulating Blood, Sorcs have Twilight. Wardens are an exception as their burst heals aren't as powerful, but they still have a burst heal. Meanwhile, magblades have none, so when they get bursted to near death, they have no way to escape the execute phase. Good magblades will usually block shade with HoTs rolling, but if they have several DoTs on them it's pretty easy to execute through their HoTs and block. Most good magblades nowadays have transitioned to melee builds though because it's better. They can play like a stamblade, while having much better heals with Dark Cloak + Rapid Regen + Blessing of Restoration (which is actually a very good universal burst heal for magicka classes).

Most magicka classes also have a reliable burst combo. Necros can time Blastbones with their ultimate, Templars can time Purifying Light with Crescent Sweep and Puncturing Sweeps on top of all their AoE DoTs, DKs can time Flames of Oblivion with Molten Whip and Leap, Sorcs can time Haunting Curse with Crystal Frag, and Wardens can time Shalks with their ultimates. The key point here is all of these classes have some form of delayed burst to time with other abilities. Magblades however, don't have any. All their damage aren't delayed, so by the time they setup a combo, their opponent has already evaded it.

These are the reasons why Magblade is so bad right now. All ZOS has to do is give them a good class burst heal and make Relentless Focus a true delayed burst ability, then magblade will actually be good.

Now moving on to Cloak. It isn't insanely overpowered, but extremely stacked compared to other abilities. You press one button and get 5 different things:

1) A 100% chance to crit your next heal or direct dmg ability
2) A 6s armor buff which increases to 9s if you run the standard 5-2 setup
3) An instant 3s LoS that can only be broken by direct AoE dmg or stealth detection
4) A budget "purge" as it suppresses single target DoTs
5) An extra slot as you don't need to slot an armor buff ability like other classes

The only ability that can closely match Cloak right now is Streak. You press one button and get 4 different things:

1) A 15m gap closer
2) A 15m distance creator
3) An irresistible AoE stun
4) An AoE direct dmg with a slightly low tooltip (1-3k) that acts as a soft NB counter

Both abilities are very stacked, but Streak cannot match Cloak in terms of utility for solo PvP. However, it outclasses cloak in group utility. So depending on the situation, I can say Cloak > Streak or Streak > Cloak. I think people who think 1 ability is more OP than the other are just not playing all aspects of PvP.

If you play other classes, then you might find both Cloak and Streak to be extremely annoying. Would I say they are OP? No, because those abilities were designed to compensate for Sorc and NB lacking good heals. Would I say they are annoying? Definitely, because I have to either slot an ability that is usually useless against other classes, or use a potion that isn't as strong as other ones, just to counter these two abilities. Basically, I have to go out of my way to counter these two classes, which becomes an annoyance. Again, this is something ZOS can totally address by giving people more useful counters. Personally, I would prefer ZOS to just buff Sorc and NB's healing so they don't have to rely on Cloak or Streak. They are homogenizing everything, so they might as well do that with Sorc and NB.

Hope that answers your question

Raeyleigh

NagualV wrote: »

I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists.

Long story short its because they have no viable burst heal and cannot pressure a kill.

1. Since healing ward was gutted it has become almost impossible to recover from low hp in open world without having a shade set up behind los.

2. Unless you outright oneshot them you cannot kill anyone decent. A couple of dodgerolls and theyre back to full hp. Other classes have undodgeable or even unblockable skills or can cancel an executioner for a kill. Stamblades dont experience that pain in the same way.

Stamblade and Magsorc are basicly vastly superior versions of magblade.

Zekka

The question was "why magblade is considered bad if cloak is so strong " and the reason is: mobility.
A stamblade can dodge roll once or twice then cloak and next thing you know they are on the other side of the map, meanwhile a magblade cloaking right in front of you you know damn well that they are still right in front of you so it's easy to pull them out of cloak. That's because a stamblade can wear 3 swifts, ring of the wild hunt, use steed mundus and still have enough killing power to drop anything that isn't a meta stam bruiser.

And magblade isn't bad everywhere, last duel tournament I watched final was between a magdk and a magblade (using dark cloak and shade).

NagualV

I appreciate you all that took time to answer my question. Do you all feel that if magblade was given a good burst heal, it would push them into OP territory? Cloak/burst heal? Would it be beneficial to give them a good burst heal THEN give cloak the "ramping cost" treatment?

It sounds like cloak cannot overcome the lack of a burst heal or the assasinswill/swallow soul/soul harvest "dodgeability" issue.

Stx

My healing on magblade feels strong even though it's just dark cloak Rapid regen and leeching strikes.

I think the lack of a proper burst combo hurts the most. I mainly kill players with consistent damage and finish with my spectral arrow. Trying to do an incap into arrow just doesn't work very often because by the time the global is up from incap, they will have broken free and are blocking or dodging. At least experienced players.

Alchimiste1

cloak change felt like a buff to me, it was extremely consistent. It'll probably feel like nerf if you are dueling a full damage dot dk but for any other situation your ability to kite and be more elusive is better.

Hotdog_23

MadeInVN wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists. I genuinely mean that, I would like an explanation. I have seen videos of highly skilled magblades who actually end up using dark cloak.

It also amazes me that sorcs who vehemently defend streak/bol(which I think is fine) turn around and say cloak is overtuned/OP. The logic they use to defend streak/bold somehow doesnt seem to apply to cloak. It sounds the same to me .

Nightblades are not hard to counter in this game. But you have to know how. The same applies to sorcs.

I mained stamblade for 7 months and got alliance rank 32, magsorc for 6 months then converted to stamsorc main for 3 years and got alliance rank 50. I've done all types of PvP on both NB and Sorc, from dueling to 1vX, small scale to large scale, Cyrodiil to BG, and even ganking. I think I'm qualified enough to answer your question.

Magblade actually does very well in group PvP as a bomber. You'll often see full damage bombblades in an organized ball group. However, it consistently ranks near the bottom of PvP tier list for solo PvP because it lacks 2 key things:

1) A good class burst heal
2) A reliable burst combo

Most magicka classes have a good class burst heal. Necros have Resistant Flesh, Templars have Honor of the Dead, DKs have Coagulating Blood, Sorcs have Twilight. Wardens are an exception as their burst heals aren't as powerful, but they still have a burst heal. Meanwhile, magblades have none, so when they get bursted to near death, they have no way to escape the execute phase. Good magblades will usually block shade with HoTs rolling, but if they have several DoTs on them it's pretty easy to execute through their HoTs and block. Most good magblades nowadays have transitioned to melee builds though because it's better. They can play like a stamblade, while having much better heals with Dark Cloak + Rapid Regen + Blessing of Restoration (which is actually a very good universal burst heal for magicka classes).

Most magicka classes also have a reliable burst combo. Necros can time Blastbones with their ultimate, Templars can time Purifying Light with Crescent Sweep and Puncturing Sweeps on top of all their AoE DoTs, DKs can time Flames of Oblivion with Molten Whip and Leap, Sorcs can time Haunting Curse with Crystal Frag, and Wardens can time Shalks with their ultimates. The key point here is all of these classes have some form of delayed burst to time with other abilities. Magblades however, don't have any. All their damage aren't delayed, so by the time they setup a combo, their opponent has already evaded it.

These are the reasons why Magblade is so bad right now. All ZOS has to do is give them a good class burst heal and make Relentless Focus a true delayed burst ability, then magblade will actually be good.

Now moving on to Cloak. It isn't insanely overpowered, but extremely stacked compared to other abilities. You press one button and get 5 different things:

1) A 100% chance to crit your next heal or direct dmg ability
2) A 6s armor buff which increases to 9s if you run the standard 5-2 setup
3) An instant 3s LoS that can only be broken by direct AoE dmg or stealth detection
4) A budget "purge" as it suppresses single target DoTs
5) An extra slot as you don't need to slot an armor buff ability like other classes

The only ability that can closely match Cloak right now is Streak. You press one button and get 4 different things:

1) A 15m gap closer
2) A 15m distance creator
3) An irresistible AoE stun
4) An AoE direct dmg with a slightly low tooltip (1-3k) that acts as a soft NB counter

Both abilities are very stacked, but Streak cannot match Cloak in terms of utility for solo PvP. However, it outclasses cloak in group utility. So depending on the situation, I can say Cloak > Streak or Streak > Cloak. I think people who think 1 ability is more OP than the other are just not playing all aspects of PvP.

If you play other classes, then you might find both Cloak and Streak to be extremely annoying. Would I say they are OP? No, because those abilities were designed to compensate for Sorc and NB lacking good heals. Would I say they are annoying? Definitely, because I have to either slot an ability that is usually useless against other classes, or use a potion that isn't as strong as other ones, just to counter these two abilities. Basically, I have to go out of my way to counter these two classes, which becomes an annoyance. Again, this is something ZOS can totally address by giving people more useful counters. Personally, I would prefer ZOS to just buff Sorc and NB's healing so they don't have to rely on Cloak or Streak. They are homogenizing everything, so they might as well do that with Sorc and NB.

Hope that answers your question

If you gave NB a burst heals then you need to eliminate cloak since that is the reason, they don’t have a burst heal in the first place.

Sorcerer has a great burst heal in Twilight Matriarch it’s a better heal then most. It cost 1000 less then Honor The Dead not counting the free damage and LOS issues it gives the Sorcerer. Sure, you must double bar it, but they do get extra benefits in return for that requirement not counting the extra double heal at full strength which is a great group utility.

As far as cloak my biggest problems with it is the suppression of single target DoTs. Which it should not in my opinion, but ZOS could not figure how to code it, so it doesn’t take a NB out of cloak every tick. Instead ZOS choose just to suppressed them. Plus, it just makes sense that AOE’s damage abilities should also cause damage on the NB. I’m fine with it not taking them out of cloak like direct damage abilities but it shouldn’t negate them altogether either.

NB do also have a delayed type burst skill they can use in Grim Focus and its morphs. When you have it ready it is a good burst type skill, but it suffers the same as the other base classes compared to the 2 new classes.

Stay safe everyone and ZOS please fix the green tree micromanaging

cHIIMEERa

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane

Yeah because it's balanced when one ability performs 3 different roles: Armor buff, AoE DoT and also magelight. As perfectly balanced as streak.

You forgot speed

divnyi

MadeInVN wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's completely idiotic that abilities like Hurricane

Yeah because it's balanced when one ability performs 3 different roles: Armor buff, AoE DoT and also magelight. As perfectly balanced as streak.

If you want to go that route then it’s perfectly balanced when Surprise Attack performs 4 different roles: Armor Buff, Armor Debuff, Stun, & also deals 7-10k spammable damage. As perfectly balanced as cloak which also buffs armor, guarantees a crit heal or crit dmg, suppresses single target DoTs, and is an on demand LoS ability.

-Sarcasm off-

Didn't say anything about those skills, they are legitimately good because of all those factors.

Stx wrote: »

Cloak was already too powerful, and it got buffed in waking flame, not nerfed.

They also buffed reveal spells, but they are still very expensive.

Buff on reveal spells (especially those that was 6m) worth more than all the convenience changes imo. I currently play NB without cloak and I am able to find and kill all the gankers that don't kill me in first GCD. Yes it costs a lot, but ultimately costs less than you would spend spamming attacks on tanky character, because NBs die in 2-3 hits.

mikey_reach

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

I honestly have no idea what does/doesn't pull me out of cloak anymore. Could've sworn I got pulled out by Caltrops the other day but sometimes it just seems like a complete gamble.

It makes sense they probably threw caltrops over your head. The initial attack from caltrops is aoe direct which pulls nb, but once its on the floor its a dot so it does not pull you from invis.

Xeniph

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

I'm still waiting for an experienced player to explain to me why if cloak is so Insanely god powered, why magblade consistently ranks at the bottom or near the bottom of pvp tier lists. I genuinely mean that, I would like an explanation. I have seen videos of highly skilled magblades who actually end up using dark cloak.

It also amazes me that sorcs who vehemently defend streak/bol(which I think is fine) turn around and say cloak is overtuned/OP. The logic they use to defend streak/bold somehow doesnt seem to apply to cloak. It sounds the same to me .

Nightblades are not hard to counter in this game. But you have to know how. The same applies to sorcs.

I mained stamblade for 7 months and got alliance rank 32, magsorc for 6 months then converted to stamsorc main for 3 years and got alliance rank 50. I've done all types of PvP on both NB and Sorc, from dueling to 1vX, small scale to large scale, Cyrodiil to BG, and even ganking. I think I'm qualified enough to answer your question.

Magblade actually does very well in group PvP as a bomber. You'll often see full damage bombblades in an organized ball group. However, it consistently ranks near the bottom of PvP tier list for solo PvP because it lacks 2 key things:

1) A good class burst heal
2) A reliable burst combo

Most magicka classes have a good class burst heal. Necros have Resistant Flesh, Templars have Honor of the Dead, DKs have Coagulating Blood, Sorcs have Twilight. Wardens are an exception as their burst heals aren't as powerful, but they still have a burst heal. Meanwhile, magblades have none, so when they get bursted to near death, they have no way to escape the execute phase. Good magblades will usually block shade with HoTs rolling, but if they have several DoTs on them it's pretty easy to execute through their HoTs and block. Most good magblades nowadays have transitioned to melee builds though because it's better. They can play like a stamblade, while having much better heals with Dark Cloak + Rapid Regen + Blessing of Restoration (which is actually a very good universal burst heal for magicka classes).

Most magicka classes also have a reliable burst combo. Necros can time Blastbones with their ultimate, Templars can time Purifying Light with Crescent Sweep and Puncturing Sweeps on top of all their AoE DoTs, DKs can time Flames of Oblivion with Molten Whip and Leap, Sorcs can time Haunting Curse with Crystal Frag, and Wardens can time Shalks with their ultimates. The key point here is all of these classes have some form of delayed burst to time with other abilities. Magblades however, don't have any. All their damage aren't delayed, so by the time they setup a combo, their opponent has already evaded it.

These are the reasons why Magblade is so bad right now. All ZOS has to do is give them a good class burst heal and make Relentless Focus a true delayed burst ability, then magblade will actually be good.

Now moving on to Cloak. It isn't insanely overpowered, but extremely stacked compared to other abilities. You press one button and get 5 different things:

1) A 100% chance to crit your next heal or direct dmg ability
2) A 6s armor buff which increases to 9s if you run the standard 5-2 setup
3) An instant 3s LoS that can only be broken by direct AoE dmg or stealth detection
4) A budget "purge" as it suppresses single target DoTs
5) An extra slot as you don't need to slot an armor buff ability like other classes

The only ability that can closely match Cloak right now is Streak. You press one button and get 4 different things:

1) A 15m gap closer
2) A 15m distance creator
3) An irresistible AoE stun
4) An AoE direct dmg with a slightly low tooltip (1-3k) that acts as a soft NB counter

Both abilities are very stacked, but Streak cannot match Cloak in terms of utility for solo PvP. However, it outclasses cloak in group utility. So depending on the situation, I can say Cloak > Streak or Streak > Cloak. I think people who think 1 ability is more OP than the other are just not playing all aspects of PvP.

If you play other classes, then you might find both Cloak and Streak to be extremely annoying. Would I say they are OP? No, because those abilities were designed to compensate for Sorc and NB lacking good heals. Would I say they are annoying? Definitely, because I have to either slot an ability that is usually useless against other classes, or use a potion that isn't as strong as other ones, just to counter these two abilities. Basically, I have to go out of my way to counter these two classes, which becomes an annoyance. Again, this is something ZOS can totally address by giving people more useful counters. Personally, I would prefer ZOS to just buff Sorc and NB's healing so they don't have to rely on Cloak or Streak. They are homogenizing everything, so they might as well do that with Sorc and NB.

Hope that answers your question

If you gave NB a burst heals then you need to eliminate cloak since that is the reason, they don’t have a burst heal in the first place.

Sorcerer has a great burst heal in Twilight Matriarch it’s a better heal then most. It cost 1000 less then Honor The Dead not counting the free damage and LOS issues it gives the Sorcerer. Sure, you must double bar it, but they do get extra benefits in return for that requirement not counting the extra double heal at full strength which is a great group utility.

As far as cloak my biggest problems with it is the suppression of single target DoTs. Which it should not in my opinion, but ZOS could not figure how to code it, so it doesn’t take a NB out of cloak every tick. Instead ZOS choose just to suppressed them. Plus, it just makes sense that AOE’s damage abilities should also cause damage on the NB. I’m fine with it not taking them out of cloak like direct damage abilities but it shouldn’t negate them altogether either.

NB do also have a delayed type burst skill they can use in Grim Focus and its morphs. When you have it ready it is a good burst type skill, but it suffers the same as the other base classes compared to the 2 new classes.

Stay safe everyone and ZOS please fix the green tree micromanaging

You're completely wrong as to why cloak suppresses DOTs.

The two original morphs of cloak were-

Dark Cloak- Gain 3 seconds of invisibility AND purge 4 Dots as well as causing 4 projectiles to miss within 1 second of the cast.

Shadowy Disguise- Gain Invisibility and your next damage ability used within 3 seconds is a guaranteed Crit.

Now, back then, hardly anyone used Shadowy as it was pretty redundant when used in conjunction with Stealth crits, which were so much more powerful then they are today as well as the vast amount of available crit for the NB.

On the other hand, Dark Cloak was the go to morph for nearly every "stealthy" playstyle as it purged everything that would make cloak un-reliable. You read that right, it actually purged dots, not suppress them.

Now, somewhere about 4 years ago( maybe a bit longer) they decided the NB needed a burst heal. So they completely re-worked Dark Cloak (rip). That first Dark cloak change was amazing, in fact it was Artic Wind (Warden Health Heal), minus the damage return effect.

Though when the warden released they removed it from the NB, citing it being too powerful, and promptly gave the Warden a slightly more powerful version (go figure) Literally the same patch.

However, to compensate the NB's using Dark cloak for it's invisibility, purge and miss mechanic, they essentially combined the 2 morphs, albeit less powerful. Shadowy was the stealthy morph with suppression now and Dark lost it's invisibility but granted a burst heal.

Now as to why they never updated the tooltip, I can't say. However Cloak having dot suppression is not an error or coding mistake, it's intended.

renne

NBs so used to crying nerf they can't recognise a buff when they see one.

Xeniph

renne wrote: »

NBs so used to crying nerf they can't recognise a buff when they see one.

Now I would be carefull with blanket statements like this.

Some may see this as a buff, like stamblades that cloak and may not be integral to their build. While other this can actually be seen as a nerf.

Losing the projectile force miss aspect to Cloak can be a HUGE damage increase to some builds, especially those that don't use dodge roll as preemptive defences, like magicka nb. And before anyone cries foul or that this aspect of cloak was unintended, it was an intended mechanic since release. So, this change of cloak is an actual nerf, the impact of which is dependent upon your playstyle/spec.

I would personally call this a buff for stamina NB's and a nerf for magicka NB's.

Yes, cloak is more reliable now (sort of) and it costs less to maintain for stamina builds, while seeing little to no impact on the damage mitigation aspect since they can and usually do, roll dodge ad nauseum.

However the damage incoming will actually increase for the mageblade, with little to no benefit, since they can and usually do, spam cloak.

So as you can see it's a matter of perspective.

renne

Xeniph wrote: »

renne wrote: »

NBs so used to crying nerf they can't recognise a buff when they see one.

Now I would be carefull with blanket statements like this.

Some may see this as a buff, like stamblades that cloak and may not be integral to their build. While other this can actually be seen as a nerf.

Losing the projectile force miss aspect to Cloak can be a HUGE damage increase to some builds, especially those that don't use dodge roll as preemptive defences, like magicka nb. And before anyone cries foul or that this aspect of cloak was unintended, it was an intended mechanic since release. So, this change of cloak is an actual nerf, the impact of which is dependent upon your playstyle/spec.

I would personally call this a buff for stamina NB's and a nerf for magicka NB's.

Yes, cloak is more reliable now (sort of) and it costs less to maintain for stamina builds, while seeing little to no impact on the damage mitigation aspect since they can and usually do, roll dodge ad nauseum.

However the damage incoming will actually increase for the mageblade, with little to no benefit, since they can and usually do, spam cloak.

So as you can see it's a matter of perspective.

Yeah, if you're LITERALLY only considering the projectile force miss aspect but that's hardly the only change. Which are buffs.

Xeniph

renne wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

renne wrote: »

NBs so used to crying nerf they can't recognise a buff when they see one.

Now I would be carefull with blanket statements like this.

Some may see this as a buff, like stamblades that cloak and may not be integral to their build. While other this can actually be seen as a nerf.

Losing the projectile force miss aspect to Cloak can be a HUGE damage increase to some builds, especially those that don't use dodge roll as preemptive defences, like magicka nb. And before anyone cries foul or that this aspect of cloak was unintended, it was an intended mechanic since release. So, this change of cloak is an actual nerf, the impact of which is dependent upon your playstyle/spec.

I would personally call this a buff for stamina NB's and a nerf for magicka NB's.

Yes, cloak is more reliable now (sort of) and it costs less to maintain for stamina builds, while seeing little to no impact on the damage mitigation aspect since they can and usually do, roll dodge ad nauseum.

However the damage incoming will actually increase for the mageblade, with little to no benefit, since they can and usually do, spam cloak.

So as you can see it's a matter of perspective.

Yeah, if you're LITERALLY only considering the projectile force miss aspect but that's hardly the only change. Which are buffs.

I think you missed the point.

A properly geard/speced mageblade had ZERO issue with cloak's qwerks before that change due to having the regen and cost reduction to spam it all day.

Thus "Fixing" it was a direct nerf, when you consider all the changes as a WHOLE. Or to say it bluntly, mageblades lost more than they gained, hence the nerf statements.

Again, perspective.

renne

Nah.

rbfrgsp

Yep, he's absolutely right. Making it easier to avoid ground AoE is a dumbing down, too. Those skills *should* require manual evasion (ie: gameplay) because they have such obvious tells. "Don't tread on red" is a gameplay fundamental and should be punished for ignoring it.

Giving cloak a buff against a type of attack which shouldn't be affecting you anyway is moot. It's literally rewarding bad play because you could and should be running around the red to begin with.

MadeInVN

NagualV wrote: »

I appreciate you all that took time to answer my question. Do you all feel that if magblade was given a good burst heal, it would push them into OP territory? Cloak/burst heal? Would it be beneficial to give them a good burst heal THEN give cloak the "ramping cost" treatment?

It sounds like cloak cannot overcome the lack of a burst heal or the assasinswill/swallow soul/soul harvest "dodgeability" issue.

I would say they need a better burst damage combo first. Stamblade is still one of the top dogs for solo PvP. Melee Magblade is also much better than its ranged counterpart as it has a burst heal from resto skill line. But all variants lack a proper burst combo.

I'd say rework Relentless to have a lower tooltip but be delayed (current tooltip and delayed would be too strong). That way you can Surprise Attack into a Relentless proc like how sorcs use the Curse + Frag combo. Trust me NB would bump up at least 1 tier with that simple change.

GRXRG

Cloak is so busted right now, if you have good connection you are just immortal, one click and you completely negate a Leap casted at you for zero damage, one click and all dots you have on yourself do zero damage, one click and ignore damage of any gap-closer.

You are seeing it as a nerf because people are not stupid and almost everyone is running Camo Hunter, Inner Light and detect pots that also give stats and immovable, so they are used as main pots by 90% of top players and 50% of newbies.

The skill in itself is beyond broken, but they gave us good tools to counter it and that's what you are experiencing.

And if you rely on stealth for defense, i am sorry, but you are just a bad nightblade and you need practice.

Great nightblades use stealth only offensively to combo burst, and shade is the main op defensive skill.

Don't expect to cloak into 5 players face and then complain a Jab revealed you, you weren't supposed to be alive in a situation like that anyway.

blktauna

I've notice zero difference in cloak. I'm still pulled out by any and everything.

ResidentContrarian

NagualV wrote: »

I appreciate you all that took time to answer my question. Do you all feel that if magblade was given a good burst heal, it would push them into OP territory? Cloak/burst heal? Would it be beneficial to give them a good burst heal THEN give cloak the "ramping cost" treatment?

It sounds like cloak cannot overcome the lack of a burst heal or the assasinswill/swallow soul/soul harvest "dodgeability" issue.

Healing ward and roll works wonders on ma NB, esp. since healing ward is arguably the strongest heal in the game and NB also has the most healing potential...

The real reason why they won't get a burst heal is because there are varied builds in the game, and massive performance swings between builds in this game.

That players use the same builds or won't change how they build doesn't change the fact that someone else has or will.

That said, honestly, I wouldn't even slot a specific burst heal over healing ward even if it were available. I don't do it on my mag templar, mag DK, nor mag sorc.

Most of the times you'd use a burst heal on a mag char you are already dead if you don't have stam, and if you have stam roll+healing ward is effective enough to not bother wasting a skill slot.

If anything a burst heal on the class would only be a stam NB buff.

JinxxND

LOL

FrankonPC

rbfrgsp wrote: »

The most recent nerf to cloak essentially removes it from the game. What is the thinking behind allowing spammables to draw NB out of cloak (jabs, whirling blades, poison inject), but not ground AoE (caltrops, shalks)?

Is it just to remove all skill requirements from play and make the game as "mash one button" as possible?

Cloak was a little underpowered prior to the recent update, and now it is basically a gimped skill.

Not a nerf at all, if you look at things that used to pull you out, but don't now...it's a pretty large buff.