Is ZOS trying to annoy players and drive them away?

FlopsyPrince · September 2021

Many things in the game push players away from the game:

- Inflexible handling of many in game issues.
[snip]
- Not fixing long-term bugs.
- Not adding small and obvious quality of life issues. (Such as multi-fillet).

Yes, the obvious reply that will come is to stop playing, but that doesn't mean it is good to continually poke at the players and those involved with this forum.

Does any MMO provider really listen to its players? Not doing everything they want of course, but listening to them in a clear and relevant manner?

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Action]

Tandor · September 2021

I guess it all depends on one's approach to things in general and the game in particular. I've been around continuously since launch and none of the points you raise as issues for you has ever been a concern for me. They've added quite a lot of "QoL" improvements over the years, but of course we all have different views on such things and what constitutes an obvious improvement to one person will be a game-breaker for someone else, so they have to tread carefully.

corrosivechains · September 2021

M$ should probably take a pretty hard look at this company and clean things up a bit from the ground up.

[snip]

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Action]

gariondavey · September 2021

In b4 lock. You raise some valid concerns, OP.

kargen27 · September 2021

See this is where we differ. We get the ability to decon multiple items and refine entire stacks and I say cool this is better. You say this stinks and the game is going to die because I can't fillet all my fish.

They do listen to the players. That is why we have housing, companions and all kinds of little things that makes the game better. Sure there are still things that need attention but overall still a very good game I and many many others enjoy playing.

Sylvermynx · September 2021

The things OP says are issues for him certainly aren't issues for me. I don't know anyone personally who's leaving (one of my good friends left a year and a half ago - because he had to deal with some serious family issues; he'll be back someday, he keeps up with what goes on in the game when we talk).

Compared to other mmos I've played in the past, this one's neither better nor worse. There's a "commonality" in mmo game devs and the development cycles I think.

Psiion · September 2021

Greetings all,

After review, we would like to remind everyone that Discussion of Disciplinary Action is against the ESO Forum's Community Rules. If you have questions or would like to appeal an infraction you have received on the Forums, you can submit a ticket at https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so.

Moving forward, please keep discussion within the Community Rules.

VaranisArano · September 2021

Its worth noting that every player is going to have their personal laundry list of things that must get done in order to satisfy them.

The Devs do listen. They lurk on the forums and hear what the community says during ESO Live, and the like.

Just don't ever confuse "listening" with "doing what the playerbase demands. Or worse, "doing what I demand."

The Devs listen.

They've handled in game issues as they see fit, sometimes in accordance with player desires and sometimes not. One only has to watch a few PTS cycles to see the distinction between areas where they implement a lot of player feedback (like Companion ability in combat) and places where they didn't because it didn't fit their vision despite player demand (Companions still have a lot of limitations, like no inventory, limited ability to take direction, and no ability to wear helmets.)

And it's important to keep in mind that asking for something completely counter to the Devs' vision doesn't make them "inflexible" when they don't give you what you want. Say, for example, you want them to change event requirements so that no one ever has to go to a PvPvE zone to get them. Well, if the Devs disagree, that's not them being "inflexible." That's the Devs having their own vision for the game, which isn't going to match up directly with what you or I want.

While I suspect most players would agree that long term bugs, lag, and other performance issues need to be fixed, again, it's not like the Devs don't hear what's being said. They do, but in many cases, the fixes seem to be lengthy and major reworks of core game systems (Groupfinder and CP 2.0), shockingly persistent (this isn't the first time that deleting characters has wiped housing storage after an updatep), or apparently unable to be fixed (Cyrodiil, despite weeks of Live testing, is no closer to a solution.) It's fashionable to tell ZOS to throw some of their money at the problem, but realistically, if it problems could be solved with money, they would have.

As for small and obvious QOL stuff, well again, I think we've all got a laundry list of stuff we'd like changed. The Devs know this stuff - they lurk on the forums and see suggestion posts. Not everything makes the cut for development, and it's not like they can do everything. Just look at the Housing community sometime to see a whole list of great suggestions for how ZOS could improve that experience, or the suggestions that PVPers have for new PVP modes or how to spruce up Cyrodiil if the performance issues get fixed.

So while I've got my own list of suggestions I bring up periodically like hair dye, black hair for Altmer PCs, fixing Cyrodiil questgivers areas to better match either Resource towers or Imperial City safe zones to prevent loading screen deaths, or better quest boards in Imperial City, I really can't get worked up when the Devs don't take my suggestions.

But really:
TL;DR
The Devs listen, but they don't always do exactly what the playerbase or indeed what any individual player wants. Nor should they.

dem0n1k · September 2021

I doubt that any ZOS staff are actively wanting to push players away from the game because it's their livelyhood! Some decisions they make probably do push some players away but as many above have already said, you can't please everyone. I think the 'problem' is more that there are a certain type of player that thinks that the majority agrees with their point of view & so therefore ZOS should action on that point of view.

To me it seems that the ZOS forum mods & community ambassadors used to engage more on the forums in the past than they do now. I think this is because at the beginning of the game there was more overall positivity & a less jaded player base. If I had to face daily snark & whinging, I'd probably back away from engaging as well.

Kalle_Demos · September 2021

OP is hardly the first person to consider this possibility. Long ago, during the great Bosmer extinction, the survivors of the Sustain calamity of Red Mountain tried to warn... This conversation has arisen several times after very questionable choices deemed at best unpopular by the player base, made it through anyway despite intense criticism from paying customers. The notion expressed by the OP and weekly threads about Zos not listening didn't materialize out of nothing.

Gamerscape2007 · September 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

TL;DR
The Devs listen, but they don't always do exactly what the playerbase or indeed what any individual player wants. Nor should they.

Let me stop you there. "The devs listen? But they don't always do exactly what the playerbase want?" What? That's exactly what gotten us into this mess in the first place. When 80% of your community are giving you backlash for stuff like the Perfect arena weapon and gear with no compensation, ignoring game breaking bugs that has been reported in the pts since forever. Releasing broken Armor sets, the stagnation of skills, neglecting the pvp playerbase so much that it's on life support, and are moving on to New World. Oh yeah, they listen alright, even when the silence is damning.

But hey, they listen. Sometimes. And when they do listen, it's usually a knee jerk reaction, and take the nuclear option to said issue, or a serious band-aid fix that make the situation worst in the future.

What? You think these type of post came out of thin air? You think it's unwarranted? It's not. Nor does these people have these "Personal laundry" They want Zos to do. They just want a functioning, balanced game, and not be banned when reporting a bug. But hey, don't take my word for it. Lets look at the whole Class representative system that has completely, and utterly failed.

VaranisArano · September 2021

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TL;DR
The Devs listen, but they don't always do exactly what the playerbase or indeed what any individual player wants. Nor should they.

Let me stop you there. "The devs listen? But they don't always do exactly what the playerbase want?" What? That's exactly what gotten us into this mess in the first place. When 80% of your community are giving you backlash for stuff like the Perfect arena weapon and gear with no compensation, ignoring game breaking bugs that has been reported in the pts since forever. Releasing broken Armor sets, the stagnation of skills, neglecting the pvp playerbase so much that it's on life support, and are moving on to New World. Oh yeah, they listen alright, even when the silence is damning.

But hey, they listen. Sometimes. And when they do listen, it's usually a knee jerk reaction, and take the nuclear option to said issue, or a serious band-aid fix that make the situation worst in the future.

What? You think these type of post came out of thin air? You think it's unwarranted? It's not. Nor does these people have these "Personal laundry" They want Zos to do. They just want a functioning, balanced game, and not be banned when reporting a bug. But hey, don't take my word for it. Lets look at the whole Class representative system that has completely, and utterly failed.

I am deeply disappointed that Cyrodiil still has longstanding bugs that are not fixed, that the lag continues to cripple performance, that improving server communication meant dropping guild members from raid, and that over years of playing, Cyrodiil has only gotten worse overall and never better.

Does that mean the Devs haven't listened to my complaints joined with a legion of others' or to the many PVPers who were so fed up they voted with their feet and left?

No, it means that what they've done hasn't worked. In fact, I have suspicions that without reversing the anti-cheat measures and Stadia changes that moved a bunch of combat and character calculations server-side, we'll never again see the glory days of a working Cyrodiil. If I'm right, that goes to illustrate just how much ZOS would have to rip out and start anew - and on a practical level, I'm not sure they even can reverse some of that even if they wanted to.

Most of the changes and bug fixes are like that. Either they are big reworks that take longer than the armchair coders on the forums want them to, or they are shockingly persistent little bugs that ZOS can't seem to squash. I couldn't tell you why ZOS has a recurring problem with Chapters being available to people who didn't buy it or why there's a recurring bug linking character deletion to deleting items in housing storage. Complaints are justified, since at the end of the day, ESO does need to be a working product and the Devs bear that responsibility. That doesn't justify mudslinging at them by saying they are trying to drive players away.

When it comes to balance, this is one of the areas where the Devs and Players are most at loggerheads because the Devs need dynamic balance and constant changes in order to fuel horizontal progression and to keep the meta from stagnating. Oh, and to get players to chase after the new BIS Mythic items/sets. Players, on the other hand, usually prefer something more stable that let's them retain or gain in power every update, no matter if it means that meta keeps one class on top for multiple updates.

One of the reasons why ZOS does this is because they understand that if they get players to chase the meta and grind for gear each update, they can drag out the lifespan of the game for that player. Players start out enjoying the game and inevitably get bored/frustrated enough to quit. Chasing the meta extends that middle portion where players don't enjoy ESO quite so much as they first did, but they'll still chase after goals and meta gear, and while they might get frustrated, it takes a lot time for that frustration to mount to the point that they quit. This "rat race" of chasing the meta is not ideal from the enjoyment-seeking player's POV, but it is ideal from the POV of an MMO who wants players to be online consistently and maybe spend money while they are at it.

And so when I say that the Devs listen, but they do what they want, this is especially true in terms of balance. I feel like a lot of players forget that there's an extra dimension to "balance" that has nothing to do with actual balance but has everything to do with horizontal progression, keeping ESO from stagnating and giving people artificial goals to chase to extend their playtime.

And I'd be willing to bet that the majority of players who get so frustrated they quit can point to having spent a long time grinding in exactly that type of Horizontal Progression, hoping things would get better then realizing that they never would. ZOS does this because it works to extend most players' playtime in ESO. Why would they change it, when arguably, providing the stability players want leads to stagnation, which makes for even faster boredom and more players leaving quicker? That's a bad thing for an MMO.

Finally, while I agree that a number of complaints are justified, I find it pretty ridiculous to say that the Devs are purposefully trying to annoy players and drive them away.

That's just frustration coming out slinging insults. It's not conducive to good discussion.

WhyMustItBe · September 2021

It is possible from a philosophical point of view, when one considers the 'devs' are also human beings with generally the same patterns of thought and feeling as other human beings. They may on some level at some times do things out of a subconscious sort of resentment, or hurt feelings, if they perceive that they are being persecuted or attacked unfairly, possibly without even realizing they are doing it.

Consider, we live very much in a "forced positivism" culture. Instead of facing our problems we very often want to take the easy way out or shortcuts that make us feel good. So we say things like "we're all one" and give ourselves permission to take credit for the work of others, because they are really us after all. That way we don't have to do the work ourselves, and can be lazy, and enjoy all the rewards without any of the effort, while the people doing the work are left out to fend for themselves.

We are like Biff leeching McFly's homework in that sense. We want to feel good more than we want to do good. So, we come to behave like anything that isn't making us feel good is the ENEMY. This is subconscious. As a species we are too lazy to even analyze our own behavior enough to realize we are doing it.

We want to feel sunshine, so we demonize the weatherman for reporting the rain. We shoot the messenger.

At the same time, the messenger is often in turn the same selfish sort of person that cares only about what they have to say and how they feel, also often without really making any effort to understand why they feel that way, and without any consideration HOW they go about conveying those feelings to others, who might as well not exist, or are just a device that exists to serve ourselves, and our ego. So we just attack without any consideration of other people's feelings because we don't look at other people as people from that point of view.

Maybe if people weren't so obsessed about WHO was right and focused more on WHAT was right the world would be a less hostile place where people could engage each other thoughtfully instead of transactionally and just using each other like so many things they throw away.

Rossmann · September 2021

I believe such a million dollars company which recently bought by trillion dollars company can solve any problem-bug (put here whatever you want) as long as they want.

Thing is about if they want to spend money or not which also show us the care and value they give to game.

Parasaurolophus · September 2021

I am deeply disappointed that Cyrodiil still has longstanding bugs that are not fixed, that the lag continues to cripple performance, that improving server communication meant dropping guild members from raid, and that over years of playing, Cyrodiil has only gotten worse overall and never better.

Does that mean the Devs haven't listened to my complaints joined with a legion of others' or to the many PVPers who were so fed up they voted with their feet and left?

This means that it is technically impossible to fix performance in Cyrodiil. You expose the situation that ZoS just doesn’t care, but it’s not so, no developer will allow such serious problems for years just because he doesn’t care. PVP in eso was popular and may have remained so to this day. The most popular games in the world are PVP games and ZoS knows it. But alas, the problems seem to be very serious and deep.

Ei8htba11 · September 2021

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Many things in the game push players away from the game:

- Inflexible handling of many in game issues.
[snip]
- Not fixing long-term bugs.
- Not adding small and obvious quality of life issues. (Such as multi-fillet).
...

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Action]

I don't think many if any original coders are still with the team. There's a lot of code. What might have been easy for the original guys to find might be harder for those coming in after the fact. Then there's the consideration of what needs prioritising: Is it broken, is it exploitable, or is it merely inconvenient. Does a fix have a knock on effect and change some other gameplay element?

Driving people away? No, after all the salary the game generates pays peoples mortgages, bills etc. They'd probably like to continue doing that

VaranisArano · September 2021

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I am deeply disappointed that Cyrodiil still has longstanding bugs that are not fixed, that the lag continues to cripple performance, that improving server communication meant dropping guild members from raid, and that over years of playing, Cyrodiil has only gotten worse overall and never better.

Does that mean the Devs haven't listened to my complaints joined with a legion of others' or to the many PVPers who were so fed up they voted with their feet and left?

This means that it is technically impossible to fix performance in Cyrodiil. You expose the situation that ZoS just doesn’t care, but it’s not so, no developer will allow such serious problems for years just because he doesn’t care. PVP in eso was popular and may have remained so to this day. The most popular games in the world are PVP games and ZoS knows it. But alas, the problems seem to be very serious and deep.

And that's pretty much where I've ended up. It's clearly not that the Devs don't care that their flagship PVP zone is broken. They care. They've tried lots of things to fix it that haven't worked. They definitely know that Cyrodiil isn't what it should be and that players quit over it.

That tells me they can't fix it or the fix would be prohibitively gamebreaking. If the fix is "revert all the coding that moved calculations server-side as an anti-cheat and Stadia support measure," then I have to say I don't expect much change. So much work has been built on top of that original approach to anti-cheating that I don't even know if it can be undone or if we're looking at the equivalent of making a new game instead of something like the Dungeon Finder rework.

FlopsyPrince · September 2021

ZOS_KageW wrote: »

Greetings all,

After review, we would like to remind everyone that Discussion of Disciplinary Action is against the ESO Forum's Community Rules. If you have questions or would like to appeal an infraction you have received on the Forums, you can submit a ticket at https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so.

Moving forward, please keep discussion within the Community Rules.

Don't waste your time on that. No reasoning is given even so. Note that I did not state what it was, just the heavy-handedness I have seen here lately.

That is not discussing any moderation action, just the overall attitude. But we can't even do that and this post will probably get removed too.

Really bad attitude for a company that relies on customers.

FlopsyPrince · September 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I am deeply disappointed that Cyrodiil still has longstanding bugs that are not fixed, that the lag continues to cripple performance, that improving server communication meant dropping guild members from raid, and that over years of playing, Cyrodiil has only gotten worse overall and never better.

Does that mean the Devs haven't listened to my complaints joined with a legion of others' or to the many PVPers who were so fed up they voted with their feet and left?

This means that it is technically impossible to fix performance in Cyrodiil. You expose the situation that ZoS just doesn’t care, but it’s not so, no developer will allow such serious problems for years just because he doesn’t care. PVP in eso was popular and may have remained so to this day. The most popular games in the world are PVP games and ZoS knows it. But alas, the problems seem to be very serious and deep.

And that's pretty much where I've ended up. It's clearly not that the Devs don't care that their flagship PVP zone is broken. They care. They've tried lots of things to fix it that haven't worked. They definitely know that Cyrodiil isn't what it should be and that players quit over it.

That tells me they can't fix it or the fix would be prohibitively gamebreaking. If the fix is "revert all the coding that moved calculations server-side as an anti-cheat and Stadia support measure," then I have to say I don't expect much change. So much work has been built on top of that original approach to anti-cheating that I don't even know if it can be undone or if we're looking at the equivalent of making a new game instead of something like the Dungeon Finder rework.

What evidence do you see of this caring? I can't think of a single example. They would at least fix many long-term bugs and find a way to hit some issues, even if others remained. Nuking everyone's skills to perhaps help PvP (which is how I understand many recent changes) and to fail that is not a good example.

I doubt they could ever remove some toxic things, but they could certainly take some actions that would better show caring.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

FlopsyPrince · September 2021

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Many things in the game push players away from the game:

- Inflexible handling of many in game issues.
[snip]
- Not fixing long-term bugs.
- Not adding small and obvious quality of life issues. (Such as multi-fillet).
...

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Action]

I don't think many if any original coders are still with the team. There's a lot of code. What might have been easy for the original guys to find might be harder for those coming in after the fact. Then there's the consideration of what needs prioritising: Is it broken, is it exploitable, or is it merely inconvenient. Does a fix have a knock on effect and change some other gameplay element?

Driving people away? No, after all the salary the game generates pays peoples mortgages, bills etc. They'd probably like to continue doing that

You would think that, but it is not how it always works, especially here. Logic is not strong in many people these days.

Fixing the quest tracking in IC so it didn't route you through another base if you are AD is a clear one that has not been addressed at all. They did add a time delay to going up and down ladders, instead of fixing the reason for the need for that. The original programmers would not be needed for that fix/change.

Having support give nice answers even if they have to decline instead of being the department of "no" would help as well. I don't think I have ever have had a positive interaction with support in my 3-4 years of playing. That is not good at all.

They wouldn't do (or not do in some cases) these things if they cared about their customer's money and the contentment needed for that money.

And no, I am not saying "agree to everything the customer wants" but it is very bad now from where I am. I regret just buying 3 top Crown packs in the latest sale at this stage, along with paying all the costs to restart on the PC, including ESO+. It takes some effort to get that feeling in me. I may raise issues, but I am usually very dedicated to what I play.

VaranisArano · September 2021

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I am deeply disappointed that Cyrodiil still has longstanding bugs that are not fixed, that the lag continues to cripple performance, that improving server communication meant dropping guild members from raid, and that over years of playing, Cyrodiil has only gotten worse overall and never better.

Does that mean the Devs haven't listened to my complaints joined with a legion of others' or to the many PVPers who were so fed up they voted with their feet and left?

This means that it is technically impossible to fix performance in Cyrodiil. You expose the situation that ZoS just doesn’t care, but it’s not so, no developer will allow such serious problems for years just because he doesn’t care. PVP in eso was popular and may have remained so to this day. The most popular games in the world are PVP games and ZoS knows it. But alas, the problems seem to be very serious and deep.

And that's pretty much where I've ended up. It's clearly not that the Devs don't care that their flagship PVP zone is broken. They care. They've tried lots of things to fix it that haven't worked. They definitely know that Cyrodiil isn't what it should be and that players quit over it.

That tells me they can't fix it or the fix would be prohibitively gamebreaking. If the fix is "revert all the coding that moved calculations server-side as an anti-cheat and Stadia support measure," then I have to say I don't expect much change. So much work has been built on top of that original approach to anti-cheating that I don't even know if it can be undone or if we're looking at the equivalent of making a new game instead of something like the Dungeon Finder rework.

What evidence do you see of this caring? I can't think of a single example. They would at least fix many long-term bugs and find a way to hit some issues, even if others remained. Nuking everyone's skills to perhaps help PvP (which is how I understand many recent changes) and to fail that is not a good example.

I doubt they could ever remove some toxic things, but they could certainly take some actions that would better show caring.

[snip]

Well, the specific example I was referring to was the numerous Live tests ZOS has run in Cyrodiil trying to gather data on what could be impacting the performance issues.

Now, the tests were inconclusive, disappointing most players who hoped for an easy fix or a silver bullet. That's not what we found out. It's not an easy fix or silver bullet. It's not like lag will be fixed if ZOS bans all ball groups or removes proc sets. It's hard sometimes to see "Well, we know some things that won't work" as progress, but really we do know more than we did before the tests.

Bug fixes, now...I struggle with this one. I'm not a coders so I don't really know how hard it is to fix, say, Abnur Tharn's Main Quest from breaking if you have the Elsweyr Prologue quests active. That's stupid bug that breaks the Main Quest, and so I'd think that after two years, someone at ZOS could've fixed it. Nope. I helped someone with it yesterday.

Not being a programmer myself, I don't know why bug fixes take so long or why ZOS has bugs that reoccur patch after patch.

It frustrates me too, but not enough to quit doing the things I enjoy in ESO.

Now, I'm not going to be able to say anything to change your mind or satisfy you. You have to decide for yourself at what point your dissatisfaction warrants a break from the game or quitting outright. However, if you want to keep playing, I'd encourage you to focus on the things you do enjoy about ESO. Tying your continued enjoyment to whether or not certain specific improvements that you want happen like getting multi-fillet or ZOS removing elements of intended gameplay that you deem "toxic"...well, I've seen a number of players quit in bitterness because ZOS didn't do what they wanted.

[edited to remove quote]

FlopsyPrince · September 2021

I was a developer in a past life (cyber security now), so I know bugs aren't always trivial, but not fixing them is like not fixing broken windows. It leads to a poor view, at the least.

I am very annoyed about the topic that cannot be discussed right now, on top of all the other "no" responses I have gotten to every request for some flexibility. I am seriously considering quitting today and walking away from quite a bit of dollars (for me at least) I have in the game. I am just one player, but being slapped in the face repeatedly does not leave me with good feelings about the game.

Very poor on their part, but you can't even talk with someone real and claiming "open a ticket" is bogus. That just gets a form response.

It reminds me of the reason I will never buy another Visio TV in my life. I was an early supporter, but I had a purchase a few years back (over $1K then) that got a bad column on one side. They refused to do ANYTHING, not even offer me a discounted refurdbed unit (something that would likely cost them little to nothing). That poor response means I will never buy one of their TVs again.

I am getting to that point here. Not because they don't do all I want, but because of the responses I have gotten and their general portrayed "we don't care" attitude. The lack of a good feedback loop with them is a big part of it.

Being inflexible and hiding reasoning (on some things) is not a good way to do business.

I really want a good MMO to play and I was enjoying this, but so many things are really undermining that enjoyment. I doubt my noting this will get anyone to think, but that is one reason I opened this thread[snip].

[edited for discussing moderator action]

Shantu · September 2021

My impression is the forum is used as another tool for exposing significant bugs (whether or not they chose to act on them is another matter). Apart from managing the image created by negative posts, I never got the feeling they care much about what goes on here. That's fine. If the game bugs me enough, I go do something else. I have found that stewing about what ZOS does or doesn't do is of no practical use...unless you're just looking for a medium to vent.

FlopsyPrince · September 2021

And quitting in the middle of an event at that, me the consummate compulsive collector....

VaranisArano · September 2021

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I was a developer in a past life (cyber security now), so I know bugs aren't always trivial, but not fixing them is like not fixing broken windows. It leads to a poor view, at the least.

I am very annoyed about the topic that cannot be discussed right now, on top of all the other "no" responses I have gotten to every request for some flexibility. I am seriously considering quitting today and walking away from quite a bit of dollars (for me at least) I have in the game. I am just one player, but being slapped in the face repeatedly does not leave me with good feelings about the game.

Very poor on their part, but you can't even talk with someone real and claiming "open a ticket" is bogus. That just gets a form response.

It reminds me of the reason I will never buy another Visio TV in my life. I was an early supporter, but I had a purchase a few years back (over $1K then) that got a bad column on one side. They refused to do ANYTHING, not even offer me a discounted refurdbed unit (something that would likely cost them little to nothing). That poor response means I will never buy one of their TVs again.

I am getting to that point here. Not because they don't do all I want, but because of the responses I have gotten and their general portrayed "we don't care" attitude. The lack of a good feedback loop with them is a big part of it.

Being inflexible and hiding reasoning (on some things) is not a good way to do business.

I really want a good MMO to play and I was enjoying this, but so many things are really undermining that enjoyment. I doubt my noting this will get anyone to think, but that is one reason I opened this thread[snip].

I've had much better luck with "open a ticket" with using the in-game "Ask for Help" option. The first response email is always a key word bot, but replay to that with a reiteration of my problem has always seen me escalated to a real person.

If that weren't possible, I see help tickets get a lot more luck when players post the issue and the ticket # here in the Help section, then contact one of the Mods to make sure it's in the right place and is following the correct channels with Support whenever progress seems to stall out. It's sad, but it's true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Finally, it's usually better to try to resolve a moderation dispute via polite PMs.

[edited to remove quote]

JKorr · September 2021

dem0n1k wrote: »

I doubt that any ZOS staff are actively wanting to push players away from the game because it's their livelyhood! Some decisions they make probably do push some players away but as many above have already said, you can't please everyone. I think the 'problem' is more that there are a certain type of player that thinks that the majority agrees with their point of view & so therefore ZOS should action on that point of view.

To me it seems that the ZOS forum mods & community ambassadors used to engage more on the forums in the past than they do now. I think this is because at the beginning of the game there was more overall positivity & a less jaded player base. If I had to face daily snark & whinging, I'd probably back away from engaging as well.

The forum mods and community people have learned to not engage on the forums because of past experiences. People with their favorite "omgtehgameiscompletelyborked" complaints demand replies from forum mods. Posters ignore the fact forum mods aren't devs. Some people also treat any statement from a mod as "official" despite the fact they deal with the forums only. Community people also come in for accusations and abuse for things they have no control over. I don't think its come to the point of threats of physical violence, the way it did on the old fallout forums, but I recall threats of legal action.

You know all those people who post saying "WE DEMAND X"? Yeah, no. If ZOS did half of what those posters want, I'd be dropping the game instantly. I can, will, and have posted ideas and requests for things I'd like to see in the game. I don't usually claim to speak for every single person who plays the game. The things I'd like to see in the game would have pvpers dropping the game as fast as I would if some of their demands were added. It's a good thing they don't listen to every single demand made by people who have a narrow specialized view of what they want the game to be. Things like bug fixes are probably the only items that fit "WE WANT" criteria.

WhyMustItBe · September 2021

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

What evidence do you see of this caring? I can't think of a single example.

People see what they want to see. ZOS has recently invested significant time and resources into implementing multithreaded rendering and other performance improvements which DO make a difference. They may not address the specific problem you personally are concerned about, but saying there is not one single example is just disingenuous.

Beyond that, the whole way you go about expressing your concerns comes off as rude, accusatory, and confrontational. How can you expect ANY rational person to want to engage you when you present your arguments like someone LOOKING for a fight?

This goes to what I stated previously:

...only cares only about what they have to say and how they feel, also often without really making any effort to understand why they feel that way, and without any consideration HOW they go about conveying those feelings to others...

I'd say work on your presentation and practice presenting your concerns without being so rude and confrontational. You will get more flies with honey than vinegar. Also, don't fall into the trap where you ASSUME that presenting your concerns calmly and reasonably will just be ignored. That is a farce. It is when comments are rude and accusatory that they get ignored.

In this case, you are your own worst enemy. It is basic people skills 101.

Amerises · September 2021

Yes.

JKorr · September 2021

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I am deeply disappointed that Cyrodiil still has longstanding bugs that are not fixed, that the lag continues to cripple performance, that improving server communication meant dropping guild members from raid, and that over years of playing, Cyrodiil has only gotten worse overall and never better.

Does that mean the Devs haven't listened to my complaints joined with a legion of others' or to the many PVPers who were so fed up they voted with their feet and left?

This means that it is technically impossible to fix performance in Cyrodiil. You expose the situation that ZoS just doesn’t care, but it’s not so, no developer will allow such serious problems for years just because he doesn’t care. PVP in eso was popular and may have remained so to this day. The most popular games in the world are PVP games and ZoS knows it. But alas, the problems seem to be very serious and deep.

And that's pretty much where I've ended up. It's clearly not that the Devs don't care that their flagship PVP zone is broken. They care. They've tried lots of things to fix it that haven't worked. They definitely know that Cyrodiil isn't what it should be and that players quit over it.

That tells me they can't fix it or the fix would be prohibitively gamebreaking. If the fix is "revert all the coding that moved calculations server-side as an anti-cheat and Stadia support measure," then I have to say I don't expect much change. So much work has been built on top of that original approach to anti-cheating that I don't even know if it can be undone or if we're looking at the equivalent of making a new game instead of something like the Dungeon Finder rework.

What evidence do you see of this caring? I can't think of a single example. They would at least fix many long-term bugs and find a way to hit some issues, even if others remained. Nuking everyone's skills to perhaps help PvP (which is how I understand many recent changes) and to fail that is not a good example.

I doubt they could ever remove some toxic things, but they could certainly take some actions that would better show caring.

[snip]

Yeah...about that....

Original alpha version was third person view only. Testers complained that Elder Scrolls should have a first person viewpoint. Devs listened, the game offers first person. Players insisted playing the entire game with one character should be possible, because they didn't necessarily want to level and redo achievements on multiple characters. Devs listened, Cadwell's Silver and Gold was added. Players complained Provisioning was too complicated and convoluted, with too many ingredients that made it ridiculous and not fun. Provisioning was completely revamped. Players complained about the game restricting their characters to their own faction zones and then to Cadwell's as Silver and Gold until they were completed before they could go any and everywhere. One Tamriel happened. Craft bag. Mounts that aren't regular horses that players suggested. Players asked for companions, and Bastian and Mirri happened.

Whatever personal opinions may be held about whether things were implemented "appropriately" or not, yes they do care and listen. In some cases, the adage "be careful what you ask for" might apply. Not being the game devs and having the full picture of future plans, legal issues, system restrictions, and hardware requirements what players ask for might not be what actually happens.

[edited to remove quote]

kargen27 · September 2021

"When 80% of your community are giving you backlash for stuff"

I would guess less than one percent of the players have even bothered to offer opinions good or bad.

To another point that has been brought up a few times. A developer did try to come into the forums and ask about ideas and give general info about what they were thinking. The visceral hate thrown his way often for things unrelated to the subject he was posting about completely overshadowed any decent conversations that were taking place. After that experience I am not surprised that we do not see developers posting in the forums. Just puts a target on them.

CSose · September 2021

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

What evidence do you see of this caring? I can't think of a single example.

People see what they want to see. ZOS has recently invested significant time and resources into implementing multithreaded rendering and other performance improvements which DO make a difference. They may not address the specific problem you personally are concerned about, but saying there is not one single example is just disingenuous.

Beyond that, the whole way you go about expressing your concerns comes off as rude, accusatory, and confrontational. How can you expect ANY rational person to want to engage you when you present your arguments like someone LOOKING for a fight?

This goes to what I stated previously:

...only cares only about what they have to say and how they feel, also often without really making any effort to understand why they feel that way, and without any consideration HOW they go about conveying those feelings to others...

I'd say work on your presentation and practice presenting your concerns without being so rude and confrontational. You will get more flies with honey than vinegar. Also, don't fall into the trap where you ASSUME that presenting your concerns calmly and reasonably will just be ignored. That is a farce. It is when comments are rude and accusatory that they get ignored.

In this case, you are your own worst enemy. It is basic people skills 101.

Except the OP is not out of line or being overly rude or demanding. They're mostly just stating facts. Nothing wrong with that. Mischaracterizing their actions is a straw man.