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Okay why did ZOS think it was a good idea to introduce these sets for PvP?
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »Are the sets supposed to combat ball groups with "heal bots". Seems like it.
The problem is these sets also screw up smaller groups and introduce unhealthy gameplay. Countering ball groups with a set will never be a healthy thing at all. Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong. Things like diminishing heals as your group grows in size, capped heals, capped number of players that can be purged, etc. are much better at hurting the strength of a ball group without causing imbalance. But having an entire group completely countered by 1 person using 1 set is very broken gameplay and should not exist in the game.Edited by MadeInVN on August 29, 2021 3:21AM6 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »Are the sets supposed to combat ball groups with "heal bots". Seems like it.
The problem is these sets also screw up smaller groups and introduce unhealthy gameplay. Countering ball groups with a set will never be a healthy thing at all. Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong. Things like diminishing heals as your group grows in size, capped heals, capped number of players that can be purged, etc. are much better at hurting the strength of a ball group without causing imbalance. But having an entire group completely countered by 1 person using 1 set is very broken gameplay and should not exist in the game.
Are you saying bombers should be removed and heal caps lowered even further. 😯0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »Are the sets supposed to combat ball groups with "heal bots". Seems like it.
The problem is these sets also screw up smaller groups and introduce unhealthy gameplay. Countering ball groups with a set will never be a healthy thing at all. Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong. Things like diminishing heals as your group grows in size, capped heals, capped number of players that can be purged, etc. are much better at hurting the strength of a ball group without causing imbalance. But having an entire group completely countered by 1 person using 1 set is very broken gameplay and should not exist in the game.
That's pretty much it. In a seven-year-old game, that's plenty of time for people to have the mechanics so figured out that they're able to use them to do things within the rules that plainly could never have been intended. (Same thing with Tower Humpers and LOS. Not technically doing anything wrong, just taking advantage of the quirky way ability firing works vs how LOS work to make sure almost nothing ever lands even from someone inches behind you, which is plainly something a good designer would never have intended.) Rather than look at what in the game's mechanics makes these things possible and deal with them, they add counters to the unintended behavior behavior which are, in turn, almost instantly used in unintended (but, honestly, predictable) ways.
The way to counter ball groups is not with new, plainly-broken sets. It's for ZOS to do something about all that stacking.Edited by MasterSpatula on August 29, 2021 4:31AM"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle3 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Red_Feather wrote: »Red_Feather wrote: »Are the sets supposed to combat ball groups with "heal bots". Seems like it.
The problem is these sets also screw up smaller groups and introduce unhealthy gameplay. Countering ball groups with a set will never be a healthy thing at all. Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong. Things like diminishing heals as your group grows in size, capped heals, capped number of players that can be purged, etc. are much better at hurting the strength of a ball group without causing imbalance. But having an entire group completely countered by 1 person using 1 set is very broken gameplay and should not exist in the game.
Are you saying bombers should be removed and heal caps lowered even further. 😯
If players can effectively counter ball groups without the need for sets, then bombers won't be needed.
One of the biggest reasons why ball groups can survive is the amount of heals they stack. A 16-man ball group will have 3-4 dedicated healers constantly spamming AoE heals/support abilities. The ability for these groups to divide their human resources to counter specific aspects of the game is why they are unstoppable against unorganized groups. When you attack their healing power, you are effectively lowering their strength without breaking the game. It will still take coordination to beat that group, but it would be easier for the less organized group.
The truth is a coordinated group will always beat the one with less coordination. When 2 organized groups fight each other, the fight can look pretty balanced if both teams have good coordination and synergy. But if one group is not coordinated, then the result is often a team wipe. The same outcome happens if a ball group fights an unorganized zerg. Similar to how 1 player can take on 4-5 players with no coordination, an organized group with good coordination can take on zergs twice as big as theirs.
While I'm not against nerfing groups because I understand how difficult it can be to lead a group in large fights (believe me, I've done it and it was very very hard), I do support limiting non group cross heals. Cross healing should only be limited to groups, period.1 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭MasterSpatula wrote: »Red_Feather wrote: »Are the sets supposed to combat ball groups with "heal bots". Seems like it.
The problem is these sets also screw up smaller groups and introduce unhealthy gameplay. Countering ball groups with a set will never be a healthy thing at all. Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong. Things like diminishing heals as your group grows in size, capped heals, capped number of players that can be purged, etc. are much better at hurting the strength of a ball group without causing imbalance. But having an entire group completely countered by 1 person using 1 set is very broken gameplay and should not exist in the game.
That's pretty much it. In a seven-year-old game, that's plenty of time for people to have the mechanics so figured out that they're able to use them to do things within the rules that plainly could never have been intended. (Same thing with Tower Humpers and LOS. Not technically doing anything wrong, just taking advantage of the quirky way ability firing works vs how LOS work to make sure almost nothing ever lands even from someone inches behind you, which is plainly something a good designer would never have intended.) Rather than look at what in the game's mechanics makes these things possible and deal with them, they add counters to the unintended behavior behavior which are, in turn, almost instantly used in unintended (but, honestly, predictable) ways.
The way to counter ball groups is not with new, plainly-broken sets. It's for ZOS to do something about all that stacking.
This 100%. If for the sake of argument we assume that ball groups, tower humpers, bombers are problems like their detractors claim, the proper way to counter that is by adjusting game mechanics. Not adding more broken things to fix other broken things. This is just lazy design.1 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's not much point making a build (investing hundred's of thousands of in game gold) against sets such as these.
I don't get the release formula: 'Make it hard hitting then nerf'....just bring it out already balanced. They have statistics, they know how the game plays and the current situation of their PvP realm.
It's not closing the gap, Zos...it's just making things frustrating I imagine.
I got hit with a 13K proc this afternoon from the new magicka set and Plague Breaker is just silly too.
Mag DK with (Pariah+Bloodspawn+Burning Spellweave - Sword and board + staff front)
Should we just not bother making builds anymore, is that it?
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Blobsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Seems fairYt Channell: Blobsky
DC EU Nightblade
Owner of 'The Travelling Merchant' - Craglorn trade guild since near release!6 -
Blobsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »
The person hit by those has medium armor and 18k resists, meaning the damage 'should' be low He also has minor and major protection, 10% damage reduction from necromancer ghost and battlespirit reducing that damage, ALL of which only reduce the damage that he should take. How exactly, then, is this sort of damage acceptable to you?
If you think 18k resistance is 'a tank build' that 'trolls', I don't think I need to say much to make my point...Yt Channell: Blobsky
DC EU Nightblade
Owner of 'The Travelling Merchant' - Craglorn trade guild since near release!9 -
Sorbin✭✭✭✭Looks like another wonderful, gimmick-ridden update from ZoS, as per usual since Greymoor. I'm glad I quit the game some time ago. It isn't even good enough to justify being a New World waiting room anymore. Sad to see it continuing its descent into total stagnation, though.Edited by Sorbin on August 29, 2021 9:34PM2
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »
The person hit by those has medium armor and 18k resists, meaning the damage 'should' be low He also has minor and major protection, 10% damage reduction from necromancer ghost and battlespirit reducing that damage, ALL of which only reduce the damage that he should take. How exactly, then, is this sort of damage acceptable to you?
If you think 18k resistance is 'a tank build' that 'trolls', I don't think I need to say much to make my point...
Well like the death recap in that comment said.. Have you tried PvE?
Edited to make sure forum mods don't flag me for baiting (the screenshot says that)Edited by MadeInVN on August 29, 2021 8:59PM0 -
Blobsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »
The person hit by those has medium armor and 18k resists, meaning the damage 'should' be low He also has minor and major protection, 10% damage reduction from necromancer ghost and battlespirit reducing that damage, ALL of which only reduce the damage that he should take. How exactly, then, is this sort of damage acceptable to you?
If you think 18k resistance is 'a tank build' that 'trolls', I don't think I need to say much to make my point...
Well like the death recap in that comment said.. Have you tried PvE?
Edited to make sure forum mods don't flag me for baiting (the screenshot says that)
Not seriously since CWC, I've almost only PvPed since beta (800 days playtime). But I will until this is balanced xDYt Channell: Blobsky
DC EU Nightblade
Owner of 'The Travelling Merchant' - Craglorn trade guild since near release!1 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »
The person hit by those has medium armor and 18k resists, meaning the damage 'should' be low He also has minor and major protection, 10% damage reduction from necromancer ghost and battlespirit reducing that damage, ALL of which only reduce the damage that he should take. How exactly, then, is this sort of damage acceptable to you?
If you think 18k resistance is 'a tank build' that 'trolls', I don't think I need to say much to make my point...
I have an 18k resistance tank that trolls, so you really don't need to make your point. 18K is actually where I stop my reistance stacking, if I bother at all.
That said the damage is too high there because it certainly doesn't hit that hard for me. But its known to be bugged anyway, so attaching that to a balance argument is pretty pointless.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »
The person hit by those has medium armor and 18k resists, meaning the damage 'should' be low He also has minor and major protection, 10% damage reduction from necromancer ghost and battlespirit reducing that damage, ALL of which only reduce the damage that he should take. How exactly, then, is this sort of damage acceptable to you?
If you think 18k resistance is 'a tank build' that 'trolls', I don't think I need to say much to make my point...
I have an 18k resistance tank that trolls, so you really don't need to make your point. 18K is actually where I stop my reistance stacking, if I bother at all.
That said the damage is too high there because it certainly doesn't hit that hard for me. But its known to be bugged anyway, so attaching that to a balance argument is pretty pointless.
You mean a 18k resist build that spams roll dodge in cloak? With that armor you aren't going to tank anybody lol4 -
Blobsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »
The person hit by those has medium armor and 18k resists, meaning the damage 'should' be low He also has minor and major protection, 10% damage reduction from necromancer ghost and battlespirit reducing that damage, ALL of which only reduce the damage that he should take. How exactly, then, is this sort of damage acceptable to you?
If you think 18k resistance is 'a tank build' that 'trolls', I don't think I need to say much to make my point...
I have an 18k resistance tank that trolls, so you really don't need to make your point. 18K is actually where I stop my reistance stacking, if I bother at all.
That said the damage is too high there because it certainly doesn't hit that hard for me. But its known to be bugged anyway, so attaching that to a balance argument is pretty pointless.
You mean a 18k resist build that spams roll dodge in cloak? With that armor you aren't going to tank anybody lol
Hrothgar is scaled solely on your armor, meaning LOW armor results in LOWER Hrothgar hits. However, the mitigation in that build is NOT low - It has major protection (providing 10% mitigation) and minor protection (providing 5% mitigation). Those mitigations are the equivelant of 6600 + 3300 further resitance = 9.9k resistance equivalent and giving a total resistance equivalent of 27.9k (42.3% mitigation) which is ample to survive AND at the same time does not increase and DOES decrease the damage of Hrothgar.
To simplify that above information for a person of your experience, my friend's build should take some of the lowest possible Hrothgar damage. The reality is, of course, that the initial tooltip size, methods of buffing that damage, and bugs related to the sets cause it to deal excessively more damage than any other set in the game no matter what build a person uses.
As an example, here is the CMX of the set against a different setup, demonstrating how massively overperforming it is compared to other sets and a player's entire skill bar. What it shows is that the set is designed to remove skill from the game. If you need help understanding CMX, I am happy to help.
Edited by Blobsky on August 29, 2021 10:13PMYt Channell: Blobsky
DC EU Nightblade
Owner of 'The Travelling Merchant' - Craglorn trade guild since near release!2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »
The person hit by those has medium armor and 18k resists, meaning the damage 'should' be low He also has minor and major protection, 10% damage reduction from necromancer ghost and battlespirit reducing that damage, ALL of which only reduce the damage that he should take. How exactly, then, is this sort of damage acceptable to you?
If you think 18k resistance is 'a tank build' that 'trolls', I don't think I need to say much to make my point...
I have an 18k resistance tank that trolls, so you really don't need to make your point. 18K is actually where I stop my reistance stacking, if I bother at all.
That said the damage is too high there because it certainly doesn't hit that hard for me. But its known to be bugged anyway, so attaching that to a balance argument is pretty pointless.
You mean a 18k resist build that spams roll dodge in cloak? With that armor you aren't going to tank anybody lol
Hrothgar is scaled solely on your armor, meaning LOW armor results in LOWER Hrothgar hits. However, the mitigation in that build is NOT low - It has major protection (providing 10% mitigation) and minor protection (providing 5% mitigation). Those mitigations are the equivelant of 6600 + 3300 further resitance = 9.9k resistance equivalent and giving a total resistance equivalent of 27.9k (42.3% mitigation) which is ample to survive AND at the same time does not increase and DOES decrease the damage of Hrothgar.
To simplify that above information for a person of your experience, my friend's build should take some of the lowest possible Hrothgar damage. The reality is, of course, that the initial tooltip size, methods of buffing that damage, and bugs related to the sets cause it to deal excessively more damage than any other set in the game no matter what build a person uses.
As an example, here is the CMX of the set against a different setup, demonstrating how massively overperforming it is compared to other sets and a player's entire skill bar. What it shows is that the set is designed to remove skill from the game. If you need help understanding CMX, I am happy to help.
Ya i know about that. I think you quoted the wrong person though :P0 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭neferpitou73 wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »neferpitou73 wrote: »
Dark Convergence and Plague Breaker are similar stories. Plague Breaker in particular is obnoxious. New healers entering Cyrodiil playing in groups are going to purge out of habit and get their entire group killed. All again because ZOS couldn't find a way to balance their own mechanics.
Actually, they could and easily did with cost increase and CD on purge spam. But players decided to flood the forums with complaints and pretend that those solutions were unfair with silly counterarguments like
Purge should be strong because it takes coordination or some other form of drivel that amounted to don't nerf purge because we said so.
Now, that statement that ball groups are hard and always play with tight coordination is being put to the test with these sets and spamming purge is not the best idea in all scenarios. Guess what the result is?
Looks like the result is they can't handle it, just like they couldn't handle the increased damage from siege.
And now that they can't handle something, the sentiment is think of the poor ball groups or stacked players?
Also, if new healers entering Cyro's only job is to spam purge in a group and be effective then it is all the proof someone needs to claim the skill is overtuned and poorly thought out itself.
Without these sets, tanks and purge spam themselves are way overtuned and so are most of the sets being used. Advocate for a nerf of purge, absolute cap to damage reduction, and all the other "obnoxious" things in PvP and then I am sure no one would disagree the set is strong.
But even then, it is only strong when you happen to use one mechanic or if you are tanky. Yeah, doesn't really sound like a problem to me.
I love when people complain about purge as if people are just spamming it just to be jerks. The reason ball groups have purge spammers is that, because of siege purging is absolutely necessary in Cyrodiil. And if you don't believe me try to take a keep without it and see how far you get. Is it possible that purge is overtuned? Sure. Give it a slight nerf. But adding a set to the game that prevents people from purging is going to hurt everyone. Not just the ball groups.
What these sets are going to do is empty out Cyrodiil because noone is going to play with them in it. When people are dying because they can't purge away 6 dots from siege, they'll just leave.
The less ball groups the better.
That said these sets are laughable.Edited by grannas211 on August 30, 2021 12:53AM0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Play in organised groups that distribute tasks on several specialised players should never be punished. Yes, it is annoying. It is also what MMO combat is about - cooperation.
Restricting or countering the use of one particular effect that gets constantly spammed to counter a whole lot of enemy skills (like Purge) may be helpful for balance. Discouraging organised play is not.
And restrictions on out-of-group healing is punishing casual healers and non-organised groups much harder, to the point of making the whole Alliance thing a complete joke, and simply destroying the PvP experience of many players precisely not in ball groups. I mean, we have seen that during the "tests" in Cyrodiil, and it was terrible. (Not for ball groups, though. They were fine.)
That said, esp. Hrothgar and maybe Dark Convergence need some adjustment, or bug fixes.Edited by Varana on August 31, 2021 11:27PM2 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭Ah yes, the set that scales with the target's resistances. This was ZOS's attempt to make a counter to people that stacked over 33k resistances to try and fight back penetration and armor reduction abilities/enchantments. The set procs on immobilization and stuns so having an immovability potion is one way to counter the set. Another is stacking damage mitigation not associated with resistances like Major/Minor protection, Dragonknight's Magma Armor ultimate, and stage 3 Vampire's Undeath.
In practice though you're going to get immobilized and stunned at some point so the set is going to end up being pretty strong against the average high resist PvP build. Doesn't help it dumps that damage after a stun either, and that it hits everyone around the target to.... so if you're standing next to your team's dedicated punching bag when they get hit by this thing it's going to hurt you... a LOT!
If ZOS wanted to "Counter people who stacked resistances" either
1. Cap the resists on PVP via Battle spirit.
2. Cap the mitigation available to players instead of adding more and more 10% reductions here and there on skills and CP
3. Add new/ dynamic sources of penetration on skills/ sets.
4. Reduce Damage done penalty for every X resists over y
5. increase Oblivion damage sources
6. Do NOT add sets that can be triggered from stealth and be just as devastating to a glass cannon magblade or "PVE in PVP event runner" as they are to a full Tank or "Overpowered 40k health 40k penetration 8k WD Dragon knight".
These new sets were a Water Cooler joke that made it to live with no attention paid to the PTS feedback.
Also these sets do not stop ball groups, they just change their loadout, If ZOS hate ball groups (Armies) then just turn Cyrodiil into a PVE area and say the Three banners war peacefully decided to withdraw early from Cyrodiil and the Imperial City and leave it ..... to the Imperials who live there, King Emmeric could make a speech about not stranding Covenant citizens there and ZOS could come up with more small scale PVP modes limited to 10 players with mechanics that must be completed along the way like a PVP Dungeon or escort the scroll.3 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭Does the Plague one only proc on the purge skill, or on other sources of cleansing too?
Plague is broken, Plague procs if someone else purges you, that means Trolls and enemy spies can not only give away your location but they can now Enable the enemy to kill you.
"IT JUST WORKS" - Todd Howard2 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭grannas211 wrote: »
The less ball groups the better.
How are these sets Stopping Ball Groups?
No CP = No Proc so these sets do nothing, the game is still as broken as ever, all these sets go is cause lag and rubber banding in CP PVP as "Black Hole goes Brrrrrrrrrrrr" x 1003 -
Hexquisite✭✭✭✭Balanced
Edited by Hexquisite on September 1, 2021 12:54AMPC NA~Ethereal Traders Union~~Spicy Economics~~Tropic Thunder~~Us Ghosts~0