What type of overland would you prefer?
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Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭zelaminator wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »It's tiring to see over and over again some of the people who like it currently telling those people who want a challenge, that they are wrong or go and play some other form of content. Inverted elitists.
There is nothing wrong with choice, there is everything wrong with "don't like it - then move on because I am happy so your opinion doesn't count".
THIS.
Changing the game for everyone would be a bad idea, but giving the choice to make the game harder for some players would be perfect.
And if there is a boost of XP or slightly better gear for the "veteran overland/delves", it shouldn't matter to more casual players because those are rewards they would not have gotten anyway.
We who like it as is, are tired of the other group too.. both sides shout at the other, to find another game
Um one side definitely doesn’t tell the people happy with how things are to play another game.
Like almost always comes from people attempting to shut down any feedback / discussion about Overland being too easy to the point of unenjoyable and unengaging.4 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »The biggest issue I have with this debate is that for overland to be anything but what it currently is requires altering the very core structure of this game. That would turn this into a completely different game. If players no longer enjoy ESO, turning it into something else and taking the game others do still enjoy away from them isn't the answer.
Giving players a choice does not make ESO a completely different game - and the vast majority of people asking for an option aren’t seeking to take anything away from anyone.
If overland is altered it would change the game I love into something I would no longer be able to enjoy. People keep blaming overland enemies for being too easy when in actuality it's just that they have progressed to veteran level content, which is exactly where the challenges are and should stay.
Optional quest boss difficulty and optional debuffs are the only reasonable solutions for something that isn't a problem for the majority of players, and doesn't disrupt the base game but only affects the player using them.PCNA8 -
Kendaric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It can still be easy, bit I need to feel like I'm actually in danger when I go into dangerous areas. Or when I fight a literal sword singer vampire lord the fight needs more powerful blows coming from him. He was just a "bullet sponge" if you ignored the side mechanic. Like a target dummy with a light amount of damage getting thrown your way.
I didn't find that particular fight easy, in fact I've not beaten it yet despite several tries. Now, I know I'm not exactly a great player (being disabled doesn't help either), but I can't help but wonder... how many casual, non-CP players without access to dungeon/trial gear do actually consider that fight easy?4 -
Pauwin✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »If overland is altered it would change the game I love into something I would no longer be able to enjoy. People keep blaming overland enemies for being too easy when in actuality it's just that they have progressed to veteran level content, which is exactly where the challenges are and should stay.
The idea of having an instance with current overland difficulty and another instance with harder overland would not change the game for you, it would feel the same. It might even be better for you because the new/casual players would mostly play on the "easier" instance and all play together
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SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »If overland is altered it would change the game I love into something I would no longer be able to enjoy. People keep blaming overland enemies for being too easy when in actuality it's just that they have progressed to veteran level content, which is exactly where the challenges are and should stay.
The idea of having an instance with current overland difficulty and another instance with harder overland would not change the game for you, it would feel the same. It might even be better for you because the new/casual players would mostly play on the "easier" instance and all play together
It would affect everyone because it would divide the playerbase. New players need to interact with experienced players to learn more about the game. They also won't be able to take down World Bosses and Harrowstorms or Geysers without the help of stronger, more experienced players. So it would have a negative affect, particularly on new and low level players.PCNA5 -
moo_2021✭✭✭✭✭Can we have some public dungeons that are on the same difficulty level as group dungeon or DLC group dungeon? even veteran / hard.
It'd be fun to play with completely random players and no fixed roles.2 -
JJOtterBear✭✭✭✭Michaelkeir wrote: »To add to this, overland could be a tad more difficult, but my true gripe is that story boss’s are TOO WEAK. If anything let’s make boss’s (and mini boss’s) more powerful.
Especially the Big Bads at the end of a year long chapter. They should have some power added to them. And I’m not talking about artificial making the fight longer with the being invincible for short duration just to give you the illusion of a tougher fight. I mean add some meaningful mechanics to them, let them hit harder, let those npcs we helped during the quest lend a hand with certain mechanics, something.
I remember years ago when I first faced Molag Bal. I got my tail handed to me. I had to actually heal, dodge, and use most of my abilities just to stay alive. It was fun and exhilarating and worthy of a Daedric Prince.
i'm mostly okay with this. I agree that many bosses need some good buffing. My only gripe with this would be that it would be a lot harder for people to take down bosses in empty zones.1 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭zelaminator wrote: »As you say, impossible.. no one has proposed a suggestion that suits everyone yet
Yes there has - The game already puts players in separate instances without the player knowing it. So what people have asked is that they create an instance where Overland is harder.
Not just Nerf the Player but where the enemies are actually more dangerous and tougher. Where Elites and Story Bosses use more mechanics.
Let Beginning Players (as well as very casual players) have their instance that allows them to learn the game or enjoy it at a casual pace. Should they wish for a more challenging SOLO experience they can change the difficulty.
- Or Second Option -
Create separate difficulty instances for Delves, Public Dungeons, and Story Bosses (Main & Mini)
Both are solutions that would work. The main disagreement is “split the playerbase” when the game already does that and there is already very little reason to group up with other players besides World Bosses.
The only thing left to actually discuss is if it should reward the player more or not. - and at the end of the day that’s up to the developers not the players.
And people would/will object against more instancing/separation of the playerbase.. so no, that option would not suit everyonezelaminator wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »It's tiring to see over and over again some of the people who like it currently telling those people who want a challenge, that they are wrong or go and play some other form of content. Inverted elitists.
There is nothing wrong with choice, there is everything wrong with "don't like it - then move on because I am happy so your opinion doesn't count".
THIS.
Changing the game for everyone would be a bad idea, but giving the choice to make the game harder for some players would be perfect.
And if there is a boost of XP or slightly better gear for the "veteran overland/delves", it shouldn't matter to more casual players because those are rewards they would not have gotten anyway.
We who like it as is, are tired of the other group too.. both sides shout at the other, to find another game
Um one side definitely doesn’t tell the people happy with how things are to play another game.
So you want to tell me, that no one from the "I want it to be harder" side of the argument, has ever told another player to go find another game if they want it as it is now.?Edited by zelaminator on August 12, 2021 10:22AM1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭zelaminator wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »As you say, impossible.. no one has proposed a suggestion that suits everyone yet
Yes there has - The game already puts players in separate instances without the player knowing it. So what people have asked is that they create an instance where Overland is harder.
Not just Nerf the Player but where the enemies are actually more dangerous and tougher. Where Elites and Story Bosses use more mechanics.
Let Beginning Players (as well as very casual players) have their instance that allows them to learn the game or enjoy it at a casual pace. Should they wish for a more challenging SOLO experience they can change the difficulty.
- Or Second Option -
Create separate difficulty instances for Delves, Public Dungeons, and Story Bosses (Main & Mini)
Both are solutions that would work. The main disagreement is “split the playerbase” when the game already does that and there is already very little reason to group up with other players besides World Bosses.
The only thing left to actually discuss is if it should reward the player more or not. - and at the end of the day that’s up to the developers not the players.
And people would/will object against more instancing/separation of the playerbase.. so no, that option would not suit everyonezelaminator wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »It's tiring to see over and over again some of the people who like it currently telling those people who want a challenge, that they are wrong or go and play some other form of content. Inverted elitists.
There is nothing wrong with choice, there is everything wrong with "don't like it - then move on because I am happy so your opinion doesn't count".
THIS.
Changing the game for everyone would be a bad idea, but giving the choice to make the game harder for some players would be perfect.
And if there is a boost of XP or slightly better gear for the "veteran overland/delves", it shouldn't matter to more casual players because those are rewards they would not have gotten anyway.
We who like it as is, are tired of the other group too.. both sides shout at the other, to find another game
Um one side definitely doesn’t tell the people happy with how things are to play another game.
So you want to tell me, that no one from the "I want it to be harder" side of the argument, has ever told another player to go find another game if they want it as it is now.?
I'd imagine that people from camps have said that, but its decidedly more prevalent on one. Its akin to telling someone that asks for story mode that they shouldn't have it because you think the game is already too easy. Or telling someone in one of the weekly or semi weekly fake tank threads that the game is already so easy tanks arent necessary and you should find another game rather than ask ZOS for a reasonable solution.
Fortunately I seriously doubt that ZOS pays a lot of attention to that type of rhetoric, from either side. What it did bring to light is that it isnt merely 3-4 people. The forum poll is close, nearly tied. Its a forum poll and really only holds entertainment value anyway, but its more than a small handful of forum dwellers.
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Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »If overland is altered it would change the game I love into something I would no longer be able to enjoy. People keep blaming overland enemies for being too easy when in actuality it's just that they have progressed to veteran level content, which is exactly where the challenges are and should stay.
The idea of having an instance with current overland difficulty and another instance with harder overland would not change the game for you, it would feel the same. It might even be better for you because the new/casual players would mostly play on the "easier" instance and all play together
It would affect everyone because it would divide the playerbase. New players need to interact with experienced players to learn more about the game. They also won't be able to take down World Bosses and Harrowstorms or Geysers without the help of stronger, more experienced players. So it would have a negative affect, particularly on new and low level players.
Being categorical and extreme has always been a stumbling block for these threads. Of course, if veteran versions of overlands appear in the game, world bosses and anchors should be nerfed for normal version. Even now, bosses and anchors are a problem for new players because the zones are empty.Edited by Parasaurolophus on August 12, 2021 4:08PMPC/EU0 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭zelaminator wrote: »As you say, impossible.. no one has proposed a suggestion that suits everyone yet
Yes there has - The game already puts players in separate instances without the player knowing it. So what people have asked is that they create an instance where Overland is harder.
Not just Nerf the Player but where the enemies are actually more dangerous and tougher. Where Elites and Story Bosses use more mechanics.
Let Beginning Players (as well as very casual players) have their instance that allows them to learn the game or enjoy it at a casual pace. Should they wish for a more challenging SOLO experience they can change the difficulty.
- Or Second Option -
Create separate difficulty instances for Delves, Public Dungeons, and Story Bosses (Main & Mini)
Both are solutions that would work. The main disagreement is “split the playerbase” when the game already does that and there is already very little reason to group up with other players besides World Bosses.
The only thing left to actually discuss is if it should reward the player more or not. - and at the end of the day that’s up to the developers not the players.
And people would/will object against more instancing/separation of the playerbase.. so no,Agenericname wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »zelaminator wrote: »As you say, impossible.. no one has proposed a suggestion that suits everyone yet
Yes there has - The game already puts players in separate instances without the player knowing it. So what people have asked is that they create an instance where Overland is harder.
Not just Nerf the Player but where the enemies are actually more dangerous and tougher. Where Elites and Story Bosses use more mechanics.
Let Beginning Players (as well as very casual players) have their instance that allows them to learn the game or enjoy it at a casual pace. Should they wish for a more challenging SOLO experience they can change the difficulty.
- Or Second Option -
Create separate difficulty instances for Delves, Public Dungeons, and Story Bosses (Main & Mini)
Both are solutions that would work. The main disagreement is “split the playerbase” when the game already does that and there is already very little reason to group up with other players besides World Bosses.
The only thing left to actually discuss is if it should reward the player more or not. - and at the end of the day that’s up to the developers not the players.
And people would/will object against more instancing/separation of the playerbase.. so no, that option would not suit everyonezelaminator wrote: »martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »It's tiring to see over and over again some of the people who like it currently telling those people who want a challenge, that they are wrong or go and play some other form of content. Inverted elitists.
There is nothing wrong with choice, there is everything wrong with "don't like it - then move on because I am happy so your opinion doesn't count".
THIS.
Changing the game for everyone would be a bad idea, but giving the choice to make the game harder for some players would be perfect.
And if there is a boost of XP or slightly better gear for the "veteran overland/delves", it shouldn't matter to more casual players because those are rewards they would not have gotten anyway.
We who like it as is, are tired of the other group too.. both sides shout at the other, to find another game
Um one side definitely doesn’t tell the people happy with how things are to play another game.
So you want to tell me, that no one from the "I want it to be harder" side of the argument, has ever told another player to go find another game if they want it as it is now.?
I'd imagine that people from camps have said that, but its decidedly more prevalent on one.
Well of course it is.. everything else would be really really weird.. If we entertain the thought that one group should go find a new game, why would it be the ones liking ESO as it is now
Why would you tell a person, who likes ESOas it is, to leave it because you think it should be different
Edited by zelaminator on August 12, 2021 1:45PM3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It all comes down to this. ESO is designed so all players regardless of experience or skill can successfully quest overland. This may not be to the liking of some players, but it is what ESO is.
There are 2 choices for those who don't find this to their liking. Either adapt to ESO, or find a game that fits their playstyle. But it is not reasonable to expect ESO to adapt its core game to fit an individual player's preference. That is comparable to someone going to a Mexican restaurant then insisting that they serve spaghetti because they prefer Italian food.Edited by SilverBride on August 12, 2021 3:47PMPCNA4 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »It all comes down to this. ESO is designed so all players regardless of experience or skill can successfully quest overland. This may not be to the liking of some players, but it is what ESO is.
There are 2 choices for those who don't find this to their liking. Either adapt to ESO, or find a game that fits their playstyle. But it is not reasonable to expect ESO to adapt its core game to fit an individual player's preference. That is comparable to someone going to a Mexican restaurant then insisting that they serve spaghetti because they prefer Italian food.
Well, the game already changed once because it's community. No question they'll do that again if critical mass would be vocal enough.4 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »Well, the game already changed once because it's community. No question they'll do that again if critical mass would be vocal enough.
It changed because a lot of players were leaving. They realized that players didn't like being separated from the other 2/3 of the playerbase, or struggling through veteran zones, or being forced to group in Craglorn. And players still don't want those things.PCNA4 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »Well, the game already changed once because it's community. No question they'll do that again if critical mass would be vocal enough.
It changed because a lot of players were leaving. They realized that players didn't like being separated from the other 2/3 of the playerbase, or struggling through veteran zones, or being forced to group in Craglorn. And players still don't want those things.
You are saying that the players did not like the division of the player base. And at the same time you say that the players don't like when they have to group.PC/EU3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »You are saying that the players did not like the division of the player base. And at the same time you say that the players don't like when they have to group.
I said being forced to group in Craglorn. You couldn't even quest there without grouping.Edited by SilverBride on August 12, 2021 4:15PMPCNA2 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »Well, the game already changed once because it's community. No question they'll do that again if critical mass would be vocal enough.
It changed because a lot of players were leaving. They realized that players didn't like being separated from the other 2/3 of the playerbase, or struggling through veteran zones, or being forced to group in Craglorn. And players still don't want those things.
Not that we're in the best ESO time now. Anyway, player minds tend to change with time, some liked one thing years ago that they utterly dislike nowadays, it's normal. I liked OneTam difficulty back at the days, but enough time passed for something new to come, player skill and mindset changing. No one likes stagnation and boredom, so if there's enough of a playerbase interested in another type of instance they would absolutely do that.1 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »You are saying that the players did not like the division of the player base. And at the same time you say that the players don't like when they have to group.
I said being forced to group in Craglorn. You couldn't even quest there without grouping.
But no one says that a vet overland must necessarily require a group.PC/EU1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »Not that we're in the best ESO time now. Anyway, player minds tend to change with time, some liked one thing years ago that they utterly dislike nowadays, it's normal. I liked OneTam difficulty back at the days, but enough time passed for something new to come, player skill and mindset changing. No one likes stagnation and boredom, so if there's enough of a playerbase interested in another type of instance they would absolutely do that.
Stagnation and boredom can happen even in the best of games. Players get burned out and take breaks or try other games.
ESO attracts a lot of casual players, and the addition of Companions shows that ZoS is aware of this, and knows their playerbase.PCNA2 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »Well, the game already changed once because it's community. No question they'll do that again if critical mass would be vocal enough.
It changed because a lot of players were leaving. They realized that players didn't like being separated from the other 2/3 of the playerbase, or struggling through veteran zones, or being forced to group in Craglorn. And players still don't want those things.
Not that we're in the best ESO time now. Anyway, player minds tend to change with time, some liked one thing years ago that they utterly dislike nowadays, it's normal. I liked OneTam difficulty back at the days, but enough time passed for something new to come, player skill and mindset changing. No one likes stagnation and boredom, so if there's enough of a playerbase interested in another type of instance they would absolutely do that.
Totally agree with you. When Craglorn was released, there was no veteran dungeon yet. People didn't care about their game skill and builds. Today, it will be normal for players to unite in a group to complete the dungeon. But yes, I agree that it is better to leave the solo for quests. So Craglorn's problem was not his difficulty.PC/EU1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SWTOR has separated areas, designed for 2 or 4 players. While doing them in group is easy, soloing them is hard. World bosses can be compared to 2 player content, but there is not much for 4 players in ESO.
The heroic areas are fairly small compared to the zones themselves and I think they only have one quest. Zenimax could copy such a thing with new zones, but again it would be a very small area.
The two-man heroics are very easy a single player is equivalent to two players as the companions are more helpful in SWTOR than our new companions in ESO. Same with doing a 4-man with two players.0 -
jle30303✭✭✭✭✭
✭Overland is meant to be easy. There are difficult things in ESO: if you want more difficulty, you have plenty of opportunity to go where the difficult monsters are, instead of demanding that the difficult monsters come to where you are in the easy zones.3 -
ixthUA✭✭✭✭✭SWTOR has separated areas, designed for 2 or 4 players. While doing them in group is easy, soloing them is hard. World bosses can be compared to 2 player content, but there is not much for 4 players in ESO.
The heroic areas are fairly small compared to the zones themselves and I think they only have one quest. Zenimax could copy such a thing with new zones, but again it would be a very small area.
The two-man heroics are very easy a single player is equivalent to two players as the companions are more helpful in SWTOR than our new companions in ESO. Same with doing a 4-man with two players.
SWTOR PVE was designed with companions in mind, as they were available from start. Solo pve areas by difficulty (with companion) are harder than public dungeons solo. 2-player areas are barely possible solo (with companion), 4 player areas are impossible.0 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »colossalvoids wrote: »Not that we're in the best ESO time now. Anyway, player minds tend to change with time, some liked one thing years ago that they utterly dislike nowadays, it's normal. I liked OneTam difficulty back at the days, but enough time passed for something new to come, player skill and mindset changing. No one likes stagnation and boredom, so if there's enough of a playerbase interested in another type of instance they would absolutely do that.
Stagnation and boredom can happen even in the best of games. Players get burned out and take breaks or try other games.
ESO attracts a lot of casual players, and the addition of Companions shows that ZoS is aware of this, and knows their playerbase.
Not all casual players like companions but that's whole another talk, we will see how this feature would be progressing or was it even popular in couple of years.
Doesn't mean that the other part of the community shouldn't have an ability to do story quests or delves, at the very least, having something more than just a visual novel before them. Whole another overland instance isn't the only thing people are asking for, some of us will prefer them focusing at least on the main quest lines that should be instanced and have some difficulty variation.3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »Doesn't mean that the other part of the community shouldn't have an ability to do story quests or delves, at the very least, having something more than just a visual novel before them.
This is what overland is. It tells the story and every player has the ability to do it just as it is.PCNA1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SWTOR has separated areas, designed for 2 or 4 players. While doing them in group is easy, soloing them is hard. World bosses can be compared to 2 player content, but there is not much for 4 players in ESO.
The heroic areas are fairly small compared to the zones themselves and I think they only have one quest. Zenimax could copy such a thing with new zones, but again it would be a very small area.
The two-man heroics are very easy a single player is equivalent to two players as the companions are more helpful in SWTOR than our new companions in ESO. Same with doing a 4-man with two players.
SWTOR PVE was designed with companions in mind, as they were available from start. Solo pve areas by difficulty (with companion) are harder than public dungeons solo. 2-player areas are barely possible solo (with companion), 4 player areas are impossible.
No offense but I found most of the 2-player areas easily solable as long as one used their skills and paid attention. Have also done plenty of the 4-man areas with only two.
The black hole heroics are a great example. When it was new it was a 4-man and we used to clear that 2-man if no one else in the guild was available. Since it was nerfed to a 2-man (probably due to diminishing population) I have cleared it solo more than once. With that I do realize what one finds to be easy is challenging to another and that is life in an MMORPG.
Regardless, I think developing a small area in each new zone for a heroic type of thing would be good for ESO. However, new zones would find a dozen players filling the heroics making them easy. After players move on to something else then we could do the "heroics" with normal size groups.
and I did note that SWTOR has companions as I stated a single player is like two since they have companions. They work well if you know how to command them properly.Edited by Amottica on August 12, 2021 6:12PM0 -
Elvenheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just a thought to consider in regards to players choosing some way to debuff themselves so public dungeons can be more challenging, suppose Player A takes the debuffing food/slides the slider to the left and is having a wonderful time slowly working their way through Bad Man’s Hallows, when along comes Player B, a level 50 with 1,000+ Champion Points farming the Pale Order Ring lead who hasn’t changed the difficulty and starts running through the Hallows at top speed on a farming circuit aoeing everything. Then Player C shows up doing the same thing….3 -
zelaminator✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elvenheart wrote: »Just a thought to consider in regards to players choosing some way to debuff themselves so public dungeons can be more challenging, suppose Player A takes the debuffing food/slides the slider to the left and is having a wonderful time slowly working their way through Bad Man’s Hallows, when along comes Player B, a level 50 with 1,000+ Champion Points farming the Pale Order Ring lead who hasn’t changed the difficulty and starts running through the Hallows at top speed on a farming circuit aoeing everything. Then Player C shows up doing the same thing….
Mentioned many many many times0
