SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Me too! Hence the suggestion I have posted here and tried to defend while being accused of "just wanting better rewards" for a whole page of comments. As the dungeon example provedit does not exclusively mean unfair advantage towards those who don't use the theoretically implemented momento.
Take dungeons for example, you get better (purple) and more (higher quality chests) rewards for vet, and yet everyone still farm normal for gear because it is more time efficient. Since it is proven (by dungeons) that it will not be unfair towards those that run normal, why shouldn't vet rewards be better (quantity-wise).
Here's the problem with this solution - it's no different from saying to just wear white gear and use only a couple skills.
Many of us have tried this solution - it doesn't change the fact that the enemies themselves are incapable, limited, slow, and boring.
Nerfing ourselves doesn't solve the problem because the enemies don't have any interesting mechanics Nor are they fast enough in the first place.
The combat is designed for complete beginners, who are learning it all for the first time. That is very evident with Story Bosses.
The combat will only get more exciting and fun if in a separate instance where it is no longer for complete beginners. Where enemies and bosses use more abilities, move faster, and do more damage.
I agree that my solution is not perfect and may not appeal to all, but it is much much less work (no need to create every boss twice/trice) and it enables playing together with friends of different levels. Your preferred solution (which in all honesty very appealing) is but a pipe dream, for three reasons, one, zos stated in the past that they do not want to split player base and want everyone to play everywhere (one Tamriel), two, lots of work, three, poor server performance won't handle more complicated faster enemies.
I agree that it is unrealistic - which is why my primary hope is a reform of quest bosses to have difficulty options with real challenge. That's far more realistic and attainable.
But the "Self Nerf" for overland is not just imperfect, it is completely ineffective.
"Self Nerf" solutions are about the same as doing nothing at all. That's my point.
Difficulty slider / debuff will not work, because people can team up and get achievement / increased drop / experience.
Thing is, it is different. Example, create momentous, Call them elixir of loot (minor elixir of loot, common elixir of loot, major elixir of loot), it will higher the drop rates of things with the debuff, scaling it to the average debuff available (rounded down, so it won't be abused, works only on enemy drops, not quest rewards).
Here you go. Solution. Doesn't hurt you, since you can play without it, and lets many others enjoy the story, including the whole power fantasy thing, and it wouldn't even be that hard to implement (calculations on loot drops already exist between players, that's how gold drops calculate.
And no, the extra loot is not "you just want extra rewards" it is there to compensate for the time lost fighting stronger enemies, when I could have just killed twice trice 4 times more enemies on the base mode and get same loot drops.
Im with you on this OP. Maybe just maybe, if threads like this show up every week it is actually a valid point?
Since anyway most people who are against such a change don't even bother to try to understand and also don't want changes that wouldn't be harmful to them in any way (optional vet zones, etc.) I'll just write:
I and thousands of players want more difficult overland content[snip]. If you want to relax and don't pay attention to what you do, play the Sims or some browser-based vegetable farms.
[edited for baiting]
It did. Uh, lemme dig out the full suggestion I gave.
Thing is, it is different. Example, create momentous, Call them elixir of loot (minor elixir of loot, common elixir of loot, major elixir of loot), it will higher the drop rates of things with the debuff, scaling it to the average debuff available (rounded down, so it won't be abused, works only on enemy drops, not quest rewards).
Here you go. Solution. Doesn't hurt you, since you can play without it, and lets many others enjoy the story, including the whole power fantasy thing, and it wouldn't even be that hard to implement (calculations on loot drops already exist between players, that's how gold drops calculate.
And no, the extra loot is not "you just want extra rewards" it is there to compensate for the time lost fighting stronger enemies, when I could have just killed twice trice 4 times more enemies on the base mode and get same loot drops.
Look, there are merits on both sides of this. Both have valid points and the whole debate about rewards seems ridiculous.
Let's focus on the concept of flow for a bit. A flow state is reached, when the given challenge matches your skills. If the challenge is too difficult, you start to experience anxiety and on the other hand, if the skill level outmatches the challenge, you feel bored.
This is the essence of this problem: how could we find a suitable challenge for every players in the overland? How could the overland be comformtable for both: those who just started (have little skill) and those who have played for a long time (have a lot of skill)?
If you manage to crack this, do share. Keep in mind the players constantly learn, so their skill level constantly rises.
Frankly if they just eliminated the levelling of 1-50 and started everyone at 50 and just incorporated more skill points through quests it would be a more sensible progression, and I'm not sure anyone would even notice...
SilverBride wrote: »Frankly if they just eliminated the levelling of 1-50 and started everyone at 50 and just incorporated more skill points through quests it would be a more sensible progression, and I'm not sure anyone would even notice...
I love playing new low level characters. They are fun because they are always finding better gear and upgrading themselves, and have something to look forward to when reaching level 50.
If we were all level 50 with CP from the start it would just aggravate the perception that overland is too easy, and take away the fun leveling experience many of us enjoy.
I think the answer already exists, and has since I can remember. If you are getting destroyed by content that is too tough for you while levelling, you just do a bit more lower level content then come back a few levels later and smash the mobs that were giving you trouble.
In most other games this works pretty well, experienced players can challenge themselves by attempting higher level quests and mob fights, whereas less experienced or skilled players just hang back for a while and take on the lower level quests and mobs.
SilverBride wrote: »Frankly if they just eliminated the levelling of 1-50 and started everyone at 50 and just incorporated more skill points through quests it would be a more sensible progression, and I'm not sure anyone would even notice...
I love playing new low level characters. They are fun because they are always finding better gear and upgrading themselves, and have something to look forward to when reaching level 50.
If we were all level 50 with CP from the start it would just aggravate the perception that overland is too easy, and take away the fun leveling experience many of us enjoy.
corrosivechains wrote: »I like how the main argument against difficulty is "some of us are bad at gaming so everyone needs to be punished with boring content!"
SilverBride wrote: »I think the answer already exists, and has since I can remember. If you are getting destroyed by content that is too tough for you while levelling, you just do a bit more lower level content then come back a few levels later and smash the mobs that were giving you trouble.
This only works for games whose zones have clear cut level ranges. ESO isn't set up that way. There is no lower level content to go back to.In most other games this works pretty well, experienced players can challenge themselves by attempting higher level quests and mob fights, whereas less experienced or skilled players just hang back for a while and take on the lower level quests and mobs.
In most other games players challenge themselves with veteran dungeons and trials and other end game content that is specifically set up for this purpose. They do not go back to low level questing zones looking for a challenge.
SilverBride wrote: »
But to get back to the OP's request of more difficult overland mobs, I learned something from another thread that I wasn't aware of. If a player has CP 3600 they are able to apply these points to an alt of any level, so even a level 1 could have 3600 CP. No wonder overland appears too easy for these players.
The problem isn't with overland, it's with overpowered players. So the solution needs to address the player.
SilverBride wrote: »I think the answer already exists, and has since I can remember. If you are getting destroyed by content that is too tough for you while levelling, you just do a bit more lower level content then come back a few levels later and smash the mobs that were giving you trouble.
This only works for games whose zones have clear cut level ranges. ESO isn't set up that way. There is no lower level content to go back to.In most other games this works pretty well, experienced players can challenge themselves by attempting higher level quests and mob fights, whereas less experienced or skilled players just hang back for a while and take on the lower level quests and mobs.
In most other games players challenge themselves with veteran dungeons and trials and other end game content that is specifically set up for this purpose. They do not go back to low level questing zones looking for a challenge.
He's right though. Most other games do have overland zones made for different level characters, so if you want more challenge, you just skip sidequests and go on to the next zone while under-levelled.
ESO, compared to many other mmos actually has really good overland zones and questlines, its just a damn shame that what in my mind is the best, most detailed and largest block of content in the game is so disappointing in this area.
SilverBride wrote: »As I previously stated the problem isn't with overland... it's with overpowered players. I agree there should be a solution for this but not at the expense of the many players who like overland just as it is.
SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Me too! Hence the suggestion I have posted here and tried to defend while being accused of "just wanting better rewards" for a whole page of comments. As the dungeon example provedit does not exclusively mean unfair advantage towards those who don't use the theoretically implemented momento.
Take dungeons for example, you get better (purple) and more (higher quality chests) rewards for vet, and yet everyone still farm normal for gear because it is more time efficient. Since it is proven (by dungeons) that it will not be unfair towards those that run normal, why shouldn't vet rewards be better (quantity-wise).
Here's the problem with this solution - it's no different from saying to just wear white gear and use only a couple skills.
Many of us have tried this solution - it doesn't change the fact that the enemies themselves are incapable, limited, slow, and boring.
Nerfing ourselves doesn't solve the problem because the enemies don't have any interesting mechanics Nor are they fast enough in the first place.
The combat is designed for complete beginners, who are learning it all for the first time. That is very evident with Story Bosses.
The combat will only get more exciting and fun if in a separate instance where it is no longer for complete beginners. Where enemies and bosses use more abilities, move faster, and do more damage.
I agree that my solution is not perfect and may not appeal to all, but it is much much less work (no need to create every boss twice/trice) and it enables playing together with friends of different levels. Your preferred solution (which in all honesty very appealing) is but a pipe dream, for three reasons, one, zos stated in the past that they do not want to split player base and want everyone to play everywhere (one Tamriel), two, lots of work, three, poor server performance won't handle more complicated faster enemies.
I agree that it is unrealistic - which is why my primary hope is a reform of quest bosses to have difficulty options with real challenge. That's far more realistic and attainable.
But the "Self Nerf" for overland is not just imperfect, it is completely ineffective.
"Self Nerf" solutions are about the same as doing nothing at all. That's my point.
I disagree on that though. Taking as an example IC horrors and wardens, they are still slow, predictable, and generally hard to die to, but they are ten folds more fun than regular quest bosses.
PS creating hard mode for quest bosses is still loads of work. Unless you mean only main quest bosses, and then I somehow see how it could work, but it will still be meh since your whole adventure be casual up to the last boss, kinda makes you feel like grind to get to the enjoyable part, and really does not change the feeling of adventure up till that point, from my PoV your solution is the ineffective one.
so which one is it for this hypothetical separate harder instance?
There is hardly anyone who would use the feature - OR - it would split the player base too much
You can't have it both ways.
SilverBride wrote: »As I previously stated the problem isn't with overland... it's with overpowered players. I agree there should be a solution for this but not at the expense of the many players who like overland just as it is.
You don't have to be over powered for it to be too easy. You can be a fresh player out the gate and it could still be too easy. This has been voiced before.
SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I think the answer already exists, and has since I can remember. If you are getting destroyed by content that is too tough for you while levelling, you just do a bit more lower level content then come back a few levels later and smash the mobs that were giving you trouble.
This only works for games whose zones have clear cut level ranges. ESO isn't set up that way. There is no lower level content to go back to.In most other games this works pretty well, experienced players can challenge themselves by attempting higher level quests and mob fights, whereas less experienced or skilled players just hang back for a while and take on the lower level quests and mobs.
In most other games players challenge themselves with veteran dungeons and trials and other end game content that is specifically set up for this purpose. They do not go back to low level questing zones looking for a challenge.
He's right though. Most other games do have overland zones made for different level characters, so if you want more challenge, you just skip sidequests and go on to the next zone while under-levelled.
ESO, compared to many other mmos actually has really good overland zones and questlines, its just a damn shame that what in my mind is the best, most detailed and largest block of content in the game is so disappointing in this area.
I never denied that other games have overland zones of different level ranges. But ESO doesn't, so that solution won't work here.
I don't find overland the least bit disappointing. What I hated was the veteran zones before One Tamriel. I play to relax and have fun, not to struggle.
As I previously stated the problem isn't with overland... it's with overpowered players. I agree there should be a solution for this but not at the expense of the many players who like overland just as it is.
Agenericname wrote: »I cant imagine a scenario where a veteran overland would generate more salt in the forums than a significant nerf to player power.
Im with you on this OP. Maybe just maybe, if threads like this show up every week it is actually a valid point?
Since anyway most people who are against such a change don't even bother to try to understand and also don't want changes that wouldn't be harmful to them in any way (optional vet zones, etc.) I'll just write:
I and thousands of players want more difficult overland content[snip]. If you want to relax and don't pay attention to what you do, play the Sims or some browser-based vegetable farms.
[edited for baiting]
SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »As I previously stated the problem isn't with overland... it's with overpowered players. I agree there should be a solution for this but not at the expense of the many players who like overland just as it is.
You don't have to be over powered for it to be too easy. You can be a fresh player out the gate and it could still be too easy. This has been voiced before.
This is all subjective. Some players find it too easy. Other players like it just as it is. Buffing overland enemies, which is what the OP has requested, is not the solution for anyone but those who think it is too easy. The rest of us get hurt in the process.
Im with you on this OP. Maybe just maybe, if threads like this show up every week it is actually a valid point?
Since anyway most people who are against such a change don't even bother to try to understand and also don't want changes that wouldn't be harmful to them in any way (optional vet zones, etc.) I'll just write:
I and thousands of players want more difficult overland content[snip]. If you want to relax and don't pay attention to what you do, play the Sims or some browser-based vegetable farms.
[edited for baiting]
The fact is that players like you are not enough in numbers to sustain this game long-term. Casual players who want to chill and level up in overland by grinding mobs or questing, outnumber you completely. Not like this MMO was never difficult. It was at launch and it was completely deserted. This game has never been more populated since it welcomed a more casual solo-oriented player base by making changes to overland content.