Do not release these sets

Raeyleigh · July 2021

Burst proc sets dominate the pvp meta every single time when they deal significant damage and have easy proc conditions. Weve had them in the past and currently we still have the vateshran 2h flying around, being effectivly a p2w weapon set. It is best in slot on every stam pvp build and even classes that normally dont run momentum like sorc or warden run the skill just to access this overpowered set.
And here we will be getting some more of those:

Thunder Caller – Light

2 – Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
3 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 – Dealing damage with a fully-charged Heavy Attack calls a bolt of lightning at your target, dealing Shock Damage and leaving a 4 meter lightning crater at their location for 6 seconds, dealing Shock Damage per second to enemies touching the crater. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds and scales off of the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

Compare this to an actually well balanced proc set like doylemish. This is easy to use on both ganking builds and regular ones. There is one particular interaction that is especially busted and shall remain unnamed. Either the burst needs to be decreased and the aoe dot increased or the proc condition needs to be more complicated.

Hrothgar’s Chill - Heavy

2 – Adds 1206 Maximum Health
3 – Adds 1487 Armor
4 – Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
5 – Stunning or Immobilizing your enemy causes them to burst with frost magic, applying the Chilled status effect and dealing 26% of their total Physical and Spell Resistance as Frost Damage to themselves and enemies within 8 meters of them. This effect can occur once every 7 seconds.

26% on someone with a median 25k resistances is a 13k tooltip. That is unavoidable and procs exactly when you want it to. AOE. Wether ganks or regular builds, this is such an easy nobrainer and everyone will wear it next patch. Make it proc only on immobilizes but with a higher cooldown or lower damage, that is atleast hard to time well in a real combo and not everyone has or uses those.

One would think that ZOS would learn from their own mistakes every once in a while. Specifically adjusting battle spirit to reduce burst damage and then releasing those sets in the very same patch is rather shizophrenic.

[edited to remove bashing spelling of ZOS]

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

Wouldn’t Hrothgar’s Chill get reduced by battle spirit? Using your 25k resistance example it should be 13k x 0.5 = 6.5k hit before applying armor and any mitigation buffs. Maybe 4-5k in the end? Still a significant hit, especially if you can target a tank surrounded by allies, but it seems weaker than Caluurions for ganking.

Raeyleigh · July 2021

I named the tooltip to draw a line of reference. A well rounded build will have a dizzy swing tooltip of 13k-14k. Just like vate 2h this set will give you an extra dizzy for free exactly when you want it in your combo.

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

It does have a very nice proc condition for timing burst, and could hit pretty close to a non-crit Dizzying Swing.

I haven’t tested it, but I’m curious about how it calculates the resistances. Do you know if it deals lower damage when you debuff an opponent? Like if you cast a Deep Fissure with Major Breach, and reduce their resistances from 25k to 19k does the proc tooltip drop from 13k to 9.8k?

Raeyleigh · July 2021

I would guess so, but I didnt test that. Probably not that good if you run it with major and minor breach against a glass cannon, but even an effective 10k tooltip hitting at the same time as dawnbreaker for example is absolutly massive.

TheUndeadAmulet · July 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It does have a very nice proc condition for timing burst, and could hit pretty close to a non-crit Dizzying Swing.

I haven’t tested it, but I’m curious about how it calculates the resistances. Do you know if it deals lower damage when you debuff an opponent? Like if you cast a Deep Fissure with Major Breach, and reduce their resistances from 25k to 19k does the proc tooltip drop from 13k to 9.8k?

I assume it would, otherwise the tooltip wouldn't change when the target is affected by a temporary armor buff as well, such as resolve, and the effect would be the same anyway.

BohnT2 · July 2021

This post is spot on.
Hrothgar's will be used on every build as it gives you free damage everytime you CC someone in a duel, which conveniently is also the time when you want to burst them and the set gives you loads of burst without offering any counterplay.

Alucardo · July 2021

idk. I kinda like the idea of punishing tanks. They're so damn annoying. However, it shouldn't really be AOE. I don't like the sound of being blown up because someone smashed an armor capped potato next to me.
As for the thunder set, I agree with you. It's not just gankers that I'm afraid of, it's those lightning staff heavy attack builds that scare me. I can just imagine those people standing behind their zerg holding down LMB and still getting the benefit of this proc set. Just nah.

BohnT2 · July 2021

Alucardo wrote: »

idk. I kinda like the idea of punishing tanks. They're so damn annoying. However, it shouldn't really be AOE. I don't like the sound of being blown up because someone smashed an armor capped potato next to me.
As for the thunder set, I agree with you. It's not just gankers that I'm afraid of, it's those lightning staff heavy attack builds that scare me. I can just imagine those people standing behind their zerg holding down LMB and still getting the benefit of this proc set. Just nah.

Hrothgar will be used by those tanks aswell and it once again circumvents the proc scaling that was ment to stop that.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2021

BohnT2 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

idk. I kinda like the idea of punishing tanks. They're so damn annoying. However, it shouldn't really be AOE. I don't like the sound of being blown up because someone smashed an armor capped potato next to me.
As for the thunder set, I agree with you. It's not just gankers that I'm afraid of, it's those lightning staff heavy attack builds that scare me. I can just imagine those people standing behind their zerg holding down LMB and still getting the benefit of this proc set. Just nah.

Hrothgar will be used by those tanks aswell and it once again circumvents the proc scaling that was ment to stop that.

Exactly. This set is an "anomaly" as it does not scale with any of your stats. It scales with resistance of your target. And what is worse, it is an AOE, so players who will be punished the most are less tanky builds that will stand in certain distance of some one who is more tanky. Tank wont be killed by it, but less tanky dude will be vaporised as dmg will scale with resistance of the initial target.

Edit: Also one thing. This set scales with total Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance. How much Resistance less tanky build has ? lets say 16K Physical & 16K spell Resistance. So combained that is 32K so 26% gives us 8 320 AOE tooltip. Tell me, what dmg dealing set has this much dmg tooltip on a tank build that has close to no weapon/spell dmg ?

^ I know it will be less in actual PvP (battle spirit & armour) so around 3 - 5K depending on how much penetration you have, but still, the base tooltip is insanely high. So if some one runs less tanky build and thinks it will not hit him/her for much... will, think again...

katorga · July 2021

The forums complained about tanky players....ZOS released a set that specifically punished them.

The forums complained about zergs/ball groups....ZOS released sets that specifically punish them.

The forums complain about the new sets....go figure.

BohnT2 · July 2021

katorga wrote: »

The forums complained about tanky players....ZOS released a set that specifically punished them.

The forums complained about zergs/ball groups....ZOS released sets that specifically punish them.

The forums complain about the new sets....go figure.

The forums complain about sets that directly contradict the rules that zos has used to balance sets in the past especially set designs that have proven to be an issue in the past.

kojou · July 2021

Thunder Caller seems pretty "meh" to me. Yeah its a proc, but it requires a heavy attack and your enemy to stay still in a 4 meter area. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it doesn't seem very game changing.

Hrothgar’s Chill is one I actually really like the design of. Maybe the numbers require some adjustments IDK, but as a concept I think it is really good. I don't think it will be a ganking set as much as a group spreading set. If you find the tank in a tightly stacked group you can force them to break up a bit with some damage pressure.

Zekka · July 2021

Thunder Caller should lose the weapon damage.
The last thing this game needs is another toy for stamblades to burst people from stealth with.

BohnT2 · July 2021

kojou wrote: »

Thunder Caller seems pretty "meh" to me. Yeah its a proc, but it requires a heavy attack and your enemy to stay still in a 4 meter area. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it doesn't seem very game changing.

Hrothgar’s Chill is one I actually really like the design of. Maybe the numbers require some adjustments IDK, but as a concept I think it is really good. I don't think it will be a ganking set as much as a group spreading set. If you find the tank in a tightly stacked group you can force them to break up a bit with some damage pressure.

the initial burst is 25% stronger than vate 2h so it will be used, especially when factoring in that you can proc it from stealth and at any range, it's just 13% weaker than caluurion but you can't avoid it because the proc doesn't go on cooldown when you avoid the heavy attack.

Hrothgar's has a terrible design because it doesn't care about your own stats and is already more powerful than most other sets when facing targets with low resistances, additionally it allows you to add burst to each and every CC which shouldn't be the case.
Damage on CCs is necessary on some classes but it's gamebreaking on others therefore giving everyone access to it is a huge mistake.

jaws343 · July 2021

kojou wrote: »

Thunder Caller seems pretty "meh" to me. Yeah its a proc, but it requires a heavy attack and your enemy to stay still in a 4 meter area. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it doesn't seem very game changing.

Hrothgar’s Chill is one I actually really like the design of. Maybe the numbers require some adjustments IDK, but as a concept I think it is really good. I don't think it will be a ganking set as much as a group spreading set. If you find the tank in a tightly stacked group you can force them to break up a bit with some damage pressure.

Yeah, I don't think Thunder Caller will see much use. The static portion of the proc is really only helpful on flags or in keep breaches. So it has limited usefulness when it can just be avoided. If it were just a straight lightning damage proc that did all of it's damage upfront on a target, it would probably be more useful. As it is though, needing to stack spell damage for a half target half ground AOE proc is almost not worth it.

Hrothgar's Chill is interesting. I am not sure if the damage is calculated before or after penetration. If it is after penetration, the proc will have lower scaling and then also still take the remainder of the targets resistances into account. If it is before penetration, you still have to take the remaining resistance into account for damage done. It will be great to proc against a tank for sure, but if you hit someone with lower resistances, it will mostly be useless. Making it extremely situational. Especially if it scales after penetration, you could potentially do zero damage with the proc if the target has no armor after penetration. You better hope the target has no debuffs on them that lowers their armor.

BohnT2 · July 2021

Zekka wrote: »

Thunder Caller should lose the weapon damage.
The last thing this game needs is another toy for stamblades to burst people from stealth with.

have fun when half a zerg spams heavy attacks on you and you don't know which ones proc thunder caller just to take further proc damage from the CC bot who's following you.

Zekka · July 2021

BohnT2 wrote: »

have fun when half a zerg spams heavy attacks on you and you don't know which ones proc thunder caller just to take further proc damage from the CC bot who's following you.

Doesn't matter, a zerg of heavy attack builds will fry me with Thunder Caller or the classic lightning heavy attack build.

danthemann5 · July 2021

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

BohnT2 · July 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Thunder Caller seems pretty "meh" to me. Yeah its a proc, but it requires a heavy attack and your enemy to stay still in a 4 meter area. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it doesn't seem very game changing.

Hrothgar’s Chill is one I actually really like the design of. Maybe the numbers require some adjustments IDK, but as a concept I think it is really good. I don't think it will be a ganking set as much as a group spreading set. If you find the tank in a tightly stacked group you can force them to break up a bit with some damage pressure.

Yeah, I don't think Thunder Caller will see much use. The static portion of the proc is really only helpful on flags or in keep breaches. So it has limited usefulness when it can just be avoided. If it were just a straight lightning damage proc that did all of it's damage upfront on a target, it would probably be more useful. As it is though, needing to stack spell damage for a half target half ground AOE proc is almost not worth it.

Hrothgar's Chill is interesting. I am not sure if the damage is calculated before or after penetration. If it is after penetration, the proc will have lower scaling and then also still take the remainder of the targets resistances into account. If it is before penetration, you still have to take the remaining resistance into account for damage done. It will be great to proc against a tank for sure, but if you hit someone with lower resistances, it will mostly be useless. Making it extremely situational. Especially if it scales after penetration, you could potentially do zero damage with the proc if the target has no armor after penetration. You better hope the target has no debuffs on them that lowers their armor.

If only people who say things about pts would have spent a single minute there testing stuff and not just make stuff up that anyone who did play on Pts can debunk.

As mentioned above Thunder Caller has a 25% higher TT on its initial burst than vate 2h which is used on every single stamspec and it also works at an range and there is no way of knowing it'll hit you.

Hrothgar is even more powerful because due to it proccing on stuns its damage won't be blocked under regular circumstances, additionally even a target with 10k resistances results in a 5.2k tooltip.
Penetration only increases the damage, that makes it extremely busted when used along with corrosive, it's only affected by armor debuffs on the target like breach, crystal weapon and armor buffs like sets, major resolve etc.

The set is just ridiculously overperforming and everyone who played pts has noticed that, there's nothing interesting about a set that's blatantly overperforming.

jaws343 · July 2021

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

The only thing to consider is there is no such thing as Capped resistances in PVP. Yes, only 33K of your resists factor into mitigation. But you can still stack 43K resistances for example. And then if you are hit with 5K pen, you are still above the 33K cap and the pen is essentially useless. So a target truly stacking resists above 33K will cause the proc to do more damage. And it isn't unusual for a tankier build to have closer to 40K resists.

BohnT2 · July 2021

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.

For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.

Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.

danthemann5 · July 2021

BohnT2 wrote: »

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.

For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.

Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.

The results you state conflict in no way with the math I did. Since penetration bypasses resists without reducing them, the result you got is expected. I still don't see this set being OP, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

Out of curiosity, what does it look like for a target with 40k resists?

4,680, not considering the attacker's penetration, major protection, CP, etc. Again, this makes sense, as the purpose of this set is to punish the super tanks.

I could spend hours calculating the various permutations of attackers and targets, but the point of this exercise was to get a feel for where the damage fell on the spectrum of proc sets.

BohnT2 · July 2021

danthemann5 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.

For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.

Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.

The results you state conflict in no way with the math I did. Since penetration bypasses resists without reducing them, the result you got is expected. I still don't see this set being OP, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

Out of curiosity, what does it look like for a target with 40k resists?

4,680, not considering the attacker's penetration, major protection, CP, etc. Again, this makes sense, as the purpose of this set is to punish the super tanks.

I could spend hours calculating the various permutations of attackers and targets, but the point of this exercise was to get a feel for where the damage fell on the spectrum of proc sets.

If you don't see how a set that adds at least 3.6k unavoidable damage to your CC (=burst) is an issue, then I advise reading up on Proc Meta Number 1 and 2 and the general effect of off-gcd burst.
Not to mention that on magdk popping fossilize becomes a 12k burst CC while having corrosive up or how the set works with onslaught.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2021

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

Well, the issue with this set is that it does not scale with any of your stats. That is the main pain point. So on a tanky build that has close to no weapon & spell damage, this set alone will do 3 - 5K AOE damage (depending on your penetration & target armour). It is the same problem as this game used to have with damage dealing proc sets as those too used to scale with "nothing" so you could have a very tanky build with a huge damage potential. ZOS changed that and now all sets scale with "something" - but Hrothgar’s Chill does not. It is an anomaly.

The other issue is that this set will not punish tanks and player who build tanky. It will for the most part hit less tanky builds as it can still dish out decent damage with 0 investment in damage. What will happen if this set procs on a tanky build, but since it is AOE will hit less tanky dude too ? Tank will survive, but squishy player will be vaporizes as dmg scales with initial target hit.

^ This set is meant to be some way to counter tanky builds, but if this set will change something - it will be the opposite, It will promote tanky builds because:
A - you will have a good damage dealing set on a tank that is a "free" dmg with no investment.
B - in a large battle, tanks hit by this set will take less damage than more squishy build standing near (AOE).

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

BohnT2 wrote: »

danthemann5 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.

For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.

Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.

The results you state conflict in no way with the math I did. Since penetration bypasses resists without reducing them, the result you got is expected. I still don't see this set being OP, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

Out of curiosity, what does it look like for a target with 40k resists?

4,680, not considering the attacker's penetration, major protection, CP, etc. Again, this makes sense, as the purpose of this set is to punish the super tanks.

I could spend hours calculating the various permutations of attackers and targets, but the point of this exercise was to get a feel for where the damage fell on the spectrum of proc sets.

If you don't see how a set that adds at least 3.6k unavoidable damage to your CC (=burst) is an issue, then I advise reading up on Proc Meta Number 1 and 2 and the general effect of off-gcd burst.
Not to mention that on magdk popping fossilize becomes a 12k burst CC while having corrosive up or how the set works with onslaught.

I agree with a lot of your points, but I will ask what that build is giving up to fit 5pc Hrothgar. The 3.6k damage proc isn’t free, it has an opportunity cost, which may be removal of something like Clever Alchemist or Mechanical Acuity. I suspect there are cases where swapping to Hrothgar would decrease a build’s burst potential.

It does seem a little concerning that it doesn’t scale with the wearer’s stats at all. The set should probably reference your weapon/spell damage as well as the enemy’s resistances.

BohnT2 · July 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

danthemann5 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

danthemann5 wrote: »

Let's math!

Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:

26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...

Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.

Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish

And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.

So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.

I honestly don't see this set being OP.

If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:

Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360

10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424

Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212

Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.

So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.

Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:

2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists

Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521

Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269

Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634

Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579

The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.

Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.

For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.

Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.

The results you state conflict in no way with the math I did. Since penetration bypasses resists without reducing them, the result you got is expected. I still don't see this set being OP, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

Out of curiosity, what does it look like for a target with 40k resists?

4,680, not considering the attacker's penetration, major protection, CP, etc. Again, this makes sense, as the purpose of this set is to punish the super tanks.

I could spend hours calculating the various permutations of attackers and targets, but the point of this exercise was to get a feel for where the damage fell on the spectrum of proc sets.

If you don't see how a set that adds at least 3.6k unavoidable damage to your CC (=burst) is an issue, then I advise reading up on Proc Meta Number 1 and 2 and the general effect of off-gcd burst.
Not to mention that on magdk popping fossilize becomes a 12k burst CC while having corrosive up or how the set works with onslaught.

I agree with a lot of your points, but I will ask what that build is giving up to fit 5pc Hrothgar. The 3.6k damage proc isn’t free, it has an opportunity cost, which may be removal of something like Clever Alchemist or Mechanical Acuity. I suspect there are cases where swapping to Hrothgar would decrease a build’s burst potential.

It does seem a little concerning that it doesn’t scale with the wearer’s stats at all. The set should probably reference your weapon/spell damage as well as the enemy’s resistances.

gaining 3+k AoE burst from a single set every 7 seconds is unlikely for any stat set as they'd need a whole burst combo with ult every time, also no stat set will give your CC burst damage which is extremely valuable

Excelsus · July 2021

I'm seeing a lot of 'this wont/cant work' but not a lot of suggestions for improvement. Every other thread this pts cycle is complaining of ball groups and immortal tanks. If these sets are not how the wise pvp experts would solve the issue then what is? Assuming this is a good faith discussion on balancing pvp and not another buff me/nerf my enemies thread. I so rarely see any kind of consensus on here so if the players cant agree on whats best for the game how is Zos supposed to?

BohnT2 · July 2021

Excelsus wrote: »

I'm seeing a lot of 'this wont/cant work' but not a lot of suggestions for improvement. Every other thread this pts cycle is complaining of ball groups and immortal tanks. If these sets are not how the wise pvp experts would solve the issue then what is? Assuming this is a good faith discussion on balancing pvp and not another buff me/nerf my enemies thread. I so rarely see any kind of consensus on here so if the players cant agree on whats best for the game how is Zos supposed to?

neither of those two sets are targeted to combat ballgroups and neither of those sets will actually help killing tanks, they will generate more tanks as they cause burst damage to go up punishing everyone who doesn't build tanky.

You can't solve issues in PvP by simply adding sets because in oder to solve imbalances they have to add imbalanced sets which leads to a vicious circle, or the sets aren't powerful enough and don't change anything about the situation.

There's also no point in telling the devs how to fix stuff, they told their class reps that they only want feedback about issues and not how to solve them.
People have told the devs over and over again over the years why certain things should be solved in a specific way and ZOS never listened, best example are proc sets, back when the first proc meta ruined PvP players have told ZOS that the issue won't be fixed unless zos forces proc sets to scale with the wearer's stats but they didn't listen and rather removed proc sets' ability to crit and what happened? another proc meta emerged and then an other one.

This has happened so many times over the years that I've given up wasting my time to write any solution to issues on the forum and the majority of players has done the same because those solutions would fall on deaf ears anyway.

Raeyleigh · July 2021

Excelsus wrote: »

I'm seeing a lot of 'this wont/cant work' but not a lot of suggestions for improvement. Every other thread this pts cycle is complaining of ball groups and immortal tanks. If these sets are not how the wise pvp experts would solve the issue then what is? Assuming this is a good faith discussion on balancing pvp and not another buff me/nerf my enemies thread. I so rarely see any kind of consensus on here so if the players cant agree on whats best for the game how is Zos supposed to?

BohnT2 wrote: »

There's also no point in telling the devs how to fix stuff, they told their class reps that they only want feedback about issues and not how to solve them.
People have told the devs over and over again over the years why certain things should be solved in a specific way and ZOS never listened, ...
This has happened so many times over the years that I've given up wasting my time to write any solution to issues on the forum and the majority of players has done the same because those solutions would fall on deaf ears anyway.

This. Also i did give a simple recommendation in the op.

I dont know what the big math discussion is about. Wether it was malacath, proc sets or vate 2h, everytime on pts people pointed out how overpowered those will be once they are released, and everytime they were ignored. History shows they were right all along.
These sets, just like the mentioned cases above, are overpowered because of cold hard math. And just like before this doesnt stop people from claiming otherwise, only to find out they were dead wrong later. You get the by far best numbers by using them and their condition to be used is laughably easy and has no feasible counterplay.

Thus the solution is either to drasticly reduce the numbers or to complicate the proc conditios and create counterplay (see doylemish for example).

You better believe that if these sets go live as they are, i will stack them with certain other things and run around oneshotting people with no counterplay. Maybe then enough people will complain to get them adjusted. Maybe the pain has to be felt first.

BattleAxe · July 2021

Here is the problem on paper these sets sound op however let’s take into account battle spirit so take the tool tip and cut that in half now cut it 10% off that then factor in resistance these sets will not hit as hard as some would think. If anything sets could be stronger or have them act as oblivion damage thus ignoring resistance.