WrathOfInnos wrote: »It does have a very nice proc condition for timing burst, and could hit pretty close to a non-crit Dizzying Swing.
I haven’t tested it, but I’m curious about how it calculates the resistances. Do you know if it deals lower damage when you debuff an opponent? Like if you cast a Deep Fissure with Major Breach, and reduce their resistances from 25k to 19k does the proc tooltip drop from 13k to 9.8k?
idk. I kinda like the idea of punishing tanks. They're so damn annoying. However, it shouldn't really be AOE. I don't like the sound of being blown up because someone smashed an armor capped potato next to me.
As for the thunder set, I agree with you. It's not just gankers that I'm afraid of, it's those lightning staff heavy attack builds that scare me. I can just imagine those people standing behind their zerg holding down LMB and still getting the benefit of this proc set. Just nah.
Exactly. This set is an "anomaly" as it does not scale with any of your stats. It scales with resistance of your target. And what is worse, it is an AOE, so players who will be punished the most are less tanky builds that will stand in certain distance of some one who is more tanky. Tank wont be killed by it, but less tanky dude will be vaporised as dmg will scale with resistance of the initial target.idk. I kinda like the idea of punishing tanks. They're so damn annoying. However, it shouldn't really be AOE. I don't like the sound of being blown up because someone smashed an armor capped potato next to me.
As for the thunder set, I agree with you. It's not just gankers that I'm afraid of, it's those lightning staff heavy attack builds that scare me. I can just imagine those people standing behind their zerg holding down LMB and still getting the benefit of this proc set. Just nah.
Hrothgar will be used by those tanks aswell and it once again circumvents the proc scaling that was ment to stop that.
The forums complained about tanky players....ZOS released a set that specifically punished them.
The forums complained about zergs/ball groups....ZOS released sets that specifically punish them.
The forums complain about the new sets....go figure.
Thunder Caller seems pretty "meh" to me. Yeah its a proc, but it requires a heavy attack and your enemy to stay still in a 4 meter area. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it doesn't seem very game changing.
Hrothgar’s Chill is one I actually really like the design of. Maybe the numbers require some adjustments IDK, but as a concept I think it is really good. I don't think it will be a ganking set as much as a group spreading set. If you find the tank in a tightly stacked group you can force them to break up a bit with some damage pressure.
Thunder Caller seems pretty "meh" to me. Yeah its a proc, but it requires a heavy attack and your enemy to stay still in a 4 meter area. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it doesn't seem very game changing.
Hrothgar’s Chill is one I actually really like the design of. Maybe the numbers require some adjustments IDK, but as a concept I think it is really good. I don't think it will be a ganking set as much as a group spreading set. If you find the tank in a tightly stacked group you can force them to break up a bit with some damage pressure.
Thunder Caller should lose the weapon damage.
The last thing this game needs is another toy for stamblades to burst people from stealth with.
have fun when half a zerg spams heavy attacks on you and you don't know which ones proc thunder caller just to take further proc damage from the CC bot who's following you.
Thunder Caller seems pretty "meh" to me. Yeah its a proc, but it requires a heavy attack and your enemy to stay still in a 4 meter area. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it doesn't seem very game changing.
Hrothgar’s Chill is one I actually really like the design of. Maybe the numbers require some adjustments IDK, but as a concept I think it is really good. I don't think it will be a ganking set as much as a group spreading set. If you find the tank in a tightly stacked group you can force them to break up a bit with some damage pressure.
Yeah, I don't think Thunder Caller will see much use. The static portion of the proc is really only helpful on flags or in keep breaches. So it has limited usefulness when it can just be avoided. If it were just a straight lightning damage proc that did all of it's damage upfront on a target, it would probably be more useful. As it is though, needing to stack spell damage for a half target half ground AOE proc is almost not worth it.
Hrothgar's Chill is interesting. I am not sure if the damage is calculated before or after penetration. If it is after penetration, the proc will have lower scaling and then also still take the remainder of the targets resistances into account. If it is before penetration, you still have to take the remaining resistance into account for damage done. It will be great to proc against a tank for sure, but if you hit someone with lower resistances, it will mostly be useless. Making it extremely situational. Especially if it scales after penetration, you could potentially do zero damage with the proc if the target has no armor after penetration. You better hope the target has no debuffs on them that lowers their armor.
danthemann5 wrote: »Let's math!
Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:
26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...
Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.
Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish
And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.
So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.
I honestly don't see this set being OP.
If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:
Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360
10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424
Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212
Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.
So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.
Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:
2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists
Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521
Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269
Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634
Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579
The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.
danthemann5 wrote: »Let's math!
Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:
26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...
Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.
Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish
And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.
So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.
I honestly don't see this set being OP.
If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:
Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360
10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424
Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212
Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.
So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.
Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:
2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists
Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521
Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269
Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634
Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579
The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.
danthemann5 wrote: »Let's math!
Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:
26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...
Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.
Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish
And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.
So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.
I honestly don't see this set being OP.
If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:
Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360
10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424
Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212
Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.
So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.
Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:
2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists
Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521
Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269
Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634
Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579
The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.
Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.
For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.
Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.
danthemann5 wrote: »danthemann5 wrote: »Let's math!
Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:
26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...
Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.
Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish
And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.
So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.
I honestly don't see this set being OP.
If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:
Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360
10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424
Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212
Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.
So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.
Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:
2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists
Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521
Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269
Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634
Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579
The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.
Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.
For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.
Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.
The results you state conflict in no way with the math I did. Since penetration bypasses resists without reducing them, the result you got is expected. I still don't see this set being OP, but we'll have to see how it plays out.
Out of curiosity, what does it look like for a target with 40k resists?
4,680, not considering the attacker's penetration, major protection, CP, etc. Again, this makes sense, as the purpose of this set is to punish the super tanks.
I could spend hours calculating the various permutations of attackers and targets, but the point of this exercise was to get a feel for where the damage fell on the spectrum of proc sets.
Well, the issue with this set is that it does not scale with any of your stats. That is the main pain point. So on a tanky build that has close to no weapon & spell damage, this set alone will do 3 - 5K AOE damage (depending on your penetration & target armour). It is the same problem as this game used to have with damage dealing proc sets as those too used to scale with "nothing" so you could have a very tanky build with a huge damage potential. ZOS changed that and now all sets scale with "something" - but Hrothgar’s Chill does not. It is an anomaly.danthemann5 wrote: »Let's math!
Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:
26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...
Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.
Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish
And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.
So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.
I honestly don't see this set being OP.
If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:
Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360
10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424
Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212
Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.
So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.
Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:
2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists
Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521
Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269
Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634
Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579
The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.
danthemann5 wrote: »danthemann5 wrote: »Let's math!
Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:
26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...
Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.
Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish
And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.
So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.
I honestly don't see this set being OP.
If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:
Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360
10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424
Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212
Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.
So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.
Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:
2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists
Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521
Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269
Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634
Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579
The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.
Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.
For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.
Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.
The results you state conflict in no way with the math I did. Since penetration bypasses resists without reducing them, the result you got is expected. I still don't see this set being OP, but we'll have to see how it plays out.
Out of curiosity, what does it look like for a target with 40k resists?
4,680, not considering the attacker's penetration, major protection, CP, etc. Again, this makes sense, as the purpose of this set is to punish the super tanks.
I could spend hours calculating the various permutations of attackers and targets, but the point of this exercise was to get a feel for where the damage fell on the spectrum of proc sets.
If you don't see how a set that adds at least 3.6k unavoidable damage to your CC (=burst) is an issue, then I advise reading up on Proc Meta Number 1 and 2 and the general effect of off-gcd burst.
Not to mention that on magdk popping fossilize becomes a 12k burst CC while having corrosive up or how the set works with onslaught.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »danthemann5 wrote: »danthemann5 wrote: »Let's math!
Consider a target with capped Physical and Spell resist, 33,000 of each for a total of 66,000:
26% of that is 17,160. That looks like a lot...
Take away the 10% due to the base mitigation that everyone gets: 15,444. Still a lot.
Take away 50% for Battle Spirit: 7,722. Reasonable...ish
And now factor in target resists, 33k mag (because frost damage) resist, or 50% damage reduction: 3,861. Not that impressive.
So on a tanky tank, you get a proc once every 7 seconds at most when you CC. That's once every 7 seconds if they're not CC immune. That also doesn't consider other damage reduction from CP stars. Assuming you can proc it on cooldown, that's 551.6 damage per second.
I honestly don't see this set being OP.
If we consider a different target with 18,000 Physical and Spell resist, 36,000 Total:
Damage: 0.26*36,000 = 9,360
10% base mitigation: 9,360*0.9 = 8,424
Battle Spirit: 8,424*0.5 = 4,212
Resists: 4,212*(1-(18,000/(33,000*2)) = 3,063, or 437.6 damage per second if it procs on cooldown.
So as target resists get lower, the damage output from this set actually gets lower.
Let's go back to the first guy and Pierce Armor him:
2*(33,000 - 2,974 - 5,948) = 48,156 total resists
Damage: 0.26*48,156 = 12,521
Base mitigation: 12,521*0.9 = 11,269
Battle Spirit: 11,269*0.5 = 5,634
Resists: 5,634*(1-((33,000-2,974-5,948)/(33,000*2)) = 3,579
The bottom line is this set procs for 3k - 4k damage every 7 seconds assuming the target is not CC immune and you can land a stun. The damage is lower for targets with lower resists. I just don't see this being a game changer, but as with all things, we'll have to see how it plays out in practice.
Or you jump on pts, and see the acutal damage numbers.
With 1.3k pen and no offensive cp slotted vs a target that has 2 defensive CP and 27k resistances each it deals 3.6k damage.
This damage only increases if my testing build had any more penetration and more CP slotted and increases further due to people running pariah.
For example, popping corrosive causes the damage to increase to 7k+ at full health, keep in mind the build I was using had no offensive stats, it was a naked char with hrothgar's equipped meaning any tank can run the set and deal decent damage and absurd damage if they decide to run 2h ult or corrosive.
Any good player who has been testing on pts has seen that the set will be an issue because it once again circumvents proc scaling, deals unavoidable burst damage and gives every class an offensive cc effectively.
The results you state conflict in no way with the math I did. Since penetration bypasses resists without reducing them, the result you got is expected. I still don't see this set being OP, but we'll have to see how it plays out.
Out of curiosity, what does it look like for a target with 40k resists?
4,680, not considering the attacker's penetration, major protection, CP, etc. Again, this makes sense, as the purpose of this set is to punish the super tanks.
I could spend hours calculating the various permutations of attackers and targets, but the point of this exercise was to get a feel for where the damage fell on the spectrum of proc sets.
If you don't see how a set that adds at least 3.6k unavoidable damage to your CC (=burst) is an issue, then I advise reading up on Proc Meta Number 1 and 2 and the general effect of off-gcd burst.
Not to mention that on magdk popping fossilize becomes a 12k burst CC while having corrosive up or how the set works with onslaught.
I agree with a lot of your points, but I will ask what that build is giving up to fit 5pc Hrothgar. The 3.6k damage proc isn’t free, it has an opportunity cost, which may be removal of something like Clever Alchemist or Mechanical Acuity. I suspect there are cases where swapping to Hrothgar would decrease a build’s burst potential.
It does seem a little concerning that it doesn’t scale with the wearer’s stats at all. The set should probably reference your weapon/spell damage as well as the enemy’s resistances.
I'm seeing a lot of 'this wont/cant work' but not a lot of suggestions for improvement. Every other thread this pts cycle is complaining of ball groups and immortal tanks. If these sets are not how the wise pvp experts would solve the issue then what is? Assuming this is a good faith discussion on balancing pvp and not another buff me/nerf my enemies thread. I so rarely see any kind of consensus on here so if the players cant agree on whats best for the game how is Zos supposed to?
I'm seeing a lot of 'this wont/cant work' but not a lot of suggestions for improvement. Every other thread this pts cycle is complaining of ball groups and immortal tanks. If these sets are not how the wise pvp experts would solve the issue then what is? Assuming this is a good faith discussion on balancing pvp and not another buff me/nerf my enemies thread. I so rarely see any kind of consensus on here so if the players cant agree on whats best for the game how is Zos supposed to?
There's also no point in telling the devs how to fix stuff, they told their class reps that they only want feedback about issues and not how to solve them.
People have told the devs over and over again over the years why certain things should be solved in a specific way and ZOS never listened, ...
This has happened so many times over the years that I've given up wasting my time to write any solution to issues on the forum and the majority of players has done the same because those solutions would fall on deaf ears anyway.