"Shadow Cloak vs ... vs Streak"

I don't get it why they are making Shadow Cloak even more powerful in PvP forcing to sacrifice skill slot for a couple seconds Detection effect in short range. I think if they making it stronger than it should have the same effect Streak has: each cast should increase the cost. To make people less frustrated with that, make it work like that only in PvP and not have cost increase in PvE zone.
Yep, yet another reason why PvE and PvP stats/gear should've been separate things from the start

starkerealm wrote: »

These are not even remotely the same thing. Streak is a gap closer. Cloak is a stealth skill. Mistform is a mitigation buff (and big one.)

It'd be like saying, "comparing Dark Deal vs. Claws of Life," and then saying, "Dark Deal shouldn't have a cast time because Claws of Life doesn't."

So? I didn't say that Shadow Cloak is a gap closer. That's on you. I said it can be healthier if it had the same cost scaling and named Streak because it's the only skill that has such scaling to be an example

Treeshka wrote: »

Mist From can be accessed by any class but the skills you have mentioned are class specific, in my opinion they should have their unique things such as being able to recovery stats while in stealth.

Mist Form can be accessed by any Class yes but do you see Sorcerer or Nightblade using it? That's a no because Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Streak out perform it and if you have ever fought a decent Sorcerer or Nightblade you would know that a Nightblade who uses Shadow Cloak and Shadow Image would abuse it by setting a Shadow Image on top of a Cliff or higher Floor and have their pursuer follow them off the Cliff or to a lower floor and then teleport back to the top level to reset the fight and/or divide the pursuer's and kill the ones up top while the ones below ran back up and just repeat the process endlessly which is a effective and overpowered reset button that far exceeds Mist Form and if you have ever fought a decent Sorcerer you would know that when you get them low they just Streak over the Moon and back despite the increased cost per use to reset the fight or just to run away and even if you chase them on a Horse with extra speed from CP they still outrun you with Streak and let's compare that to Mist Form and well you just get your head bashed in hoping that you can Line of Sight them Long enough to get away or recover, so please tell me how your opinion on that.

starkerealm wrote: »

These are not even remotely the same thing. Streak is a gap closer. Cloak is a stealth skill. Mistform is a mitigation buff (and big one.)

Yes Streak is a Gap Closer that also can Line of Sight you by passing by you and I have seen players that I assume are using controller with low sensitivity when turning take 1-2 seconds to respond with their attack after the stun and it is also a escape and a effective fight reset button and not just a gap closer and Mist Forms Damage Reduction is a joke compared to Shadow Cloak with or without Shadow Image and again also for Streak resetting fights and escaping to recover easily.

starkerealm wrote: »

TempestM wrote: »

So?

[snip]

Let me point out the things you got wrong.

I don't think it's fair to assume he never used the skill and let me break it down to you, if you have ever fought a Nightblade in PvP and used anything like Radiant Magelight then you would understand the frustration with having to cast it before it wears off because if it does even for a second and a lot of the time even if you use a detection potion the second after cloak goes off the Nightblade is nowhere to be seen in all directions so since I understood what TempestM said i can understand him saying that the resource cost should go up with each consecutive use of Shadow Cloak to make things more fair but i see things as totally fair by having Nightblades who use Shadow Cloak have their Recoveries disabled while in cloak because people who use Mist Form are slow and Visible with ZERO recoveries and a far lower chance to recover or escape then those who use Shadow Cloak and that's a fact.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...why does Shadow Cloak get to go Invisible and be Immune to most forms of damage...

Shadow Cloak offers no immunity to damage.

None.

The best it does is offer an armor buff after being activated. Which works out to be something like 5% mitigation.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...by not being able to be targeted...

This is only accurate in so far as thinking that the only way to deal with a nightblade is by hitting them directly. Cloak does not offer any immunity to AoEs, and taking damage will force them out of cloak. So, if you're worried about Nightblades just toggling on immunity to damage... it doesn't work like that.

It gives Immunity to damage with its Damage Suppression to be exact which is a fact but more to the point I was trying to make which is right after that bit I said they are not targetable while in Cloak and being not targetable compared to being targetable in Mist Form with a little more damage reduction then actually blocking with ZERO recoveries then id have to say Cloak is more then out performing Mist Form by not being targetable thus avoiding taking any damage at all and still has recovery and did someone Magelight or AoE you or detection potion you out of cloak? well no problem just click Shadow Image again then Shadow Cloak again! and that is why recoveries on Shadow Cloak Should be disabled while cloaked and recoveries being disabled for a certain amount of seconds after using Bolt Escape or Shadow Image would be great as well.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

....and be able to have Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery

So, this is not true. You do not get mag recovery while cloak is active. Back when you did get mag recovery while cloaked, it was trivial to cloak forever. Hence the resulting nerf.

Additionally, it's quite possible that in PvP you will not get stam recovery while cloaked. If you use cloak to supplement your sneaking, you are still considered sneaking so your stam recovery is blocked. The only thing you get to keep is your health recovery, which isn't that useful, and this is all on a skill that can be broken by getting tagged by an acid spray before you manage to activate it.

I never said you got Magicka Recovery while cloak is active and I said it should have the same treatment as Mist Form by having all Recoveries being disabled and I was thorough about it and you can get Stamina while sneaking you just don't move and you also get Magicka and Health Recovery in sneak if you are moving or not which is what people who use Shadow Cloak do they use the few seconds to get into Cloak so they can sneak around after and get recoveries going and attack you again after resetting the fight and come to think of it recoveries should also be disabled for a certain amount of seconds after using Shadow Cloak as well so Nightblades have less of a chance of resetting fights till it's in their favor to win.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...while people who use Mist Form get bashed on hoping to escape before they die...

Yeah, this is back to misunderstanding how these skills work. Mist Form is a terrible escape skill. It's great for soaking off some heavy damage, but it is trivial to track a mist formed vampire. Elusive Mist used to be a top tier escape skill. Back when it didn't block recovery. Because you could keep misting out (this was before it was a toggle), and could out distance unmounted players, while still keeping them locked down in combat so they couldn't mount up. But, somewhat obviously, they don't balance the game around mechanics that were changed seven years ago.

Oh I do understand how Mist Form works very well and miss the days when it had something like I forgot which its been awhile but like 52% or 54% movement speed that stacked with other speed boosts and I'm glade you agree that its a terrible skill and just wish you saw how unfair Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Bolt Escape are compared to it.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...i was wondering if Shadow Cloak could be balanced like Mist Form was by disabling recoveries while cloaked...

Which goes back to the point, where as I said, Shadow Cloak already has recovery side effects.

I think I already made my point on this but yeah it needs more recovery side effects like disabling all recoveries while cloaked by Shadow Cloak and for a certain amount of seconds after so Nightblades can't spam reset fights all day till the fight is in their favor.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...and can Streak and Shadow Image the great escapes next to Shadow Cloak have recoveries be disabled by a certain amount of seconds after being used please?

Hilariously, Streak already has a mechanic to prevent you from Streaking away forever. Because, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, sorcs would streak out, and just keep going. So, now, Streak has increasing costs when you use it multiple times in quick succession. You're literally asking for a skill that was already balanced, to be nerfed, because you've never used it and don't understand how it works.

I get the same vibe from your complaint about Shadow Image. Because, you can only Shadow back to a single location. There are ways to exploit this (much like with Undo), but they're very limited, so saying, "this skill is far too powerful," sounds more like a personal issue.

[snip]

I really like how you assume me and other people don't know how things work or how to adapt to them and I'm not sorry to say you are completely wrong as for Streak I know it was nerfed around the time Mist Form was nerfed from it's original speed and that still was not enough as I have used Streak and seen others use it and I have chased a Sorcerer on a Mount at the maximum speed possible before and after Blackwood release and Sorcerer's who run from me literally out ran me while on my mount at maximum possible speed till they were no longer in sight or far enough to use a Stealth potion and I still found and killed them Solo and Duo so seeing you stand there and tell me that their was a nerf that I already knew about and making it seem like it was a good enough nerf to end talking about it along with your assumption that I'm a bad player that needs to learn to adapt is a joke because I don't have a problem killing Nightblades or Sorcerer's but I do have a problem with fights that last over 20 or 30 mins 1v1 because a class has a skill or skills that allow them to reset the fight as much as they want.

[edited to remove quote]

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

Mist From can be accessed by any class but the skills you have mentioned are class specific, in my opinion they should have their unique things such as being able to recovery stats while in stealth.

Mist Form can be accessed by any Class yes but do you see Sorcerer or Nightblade using it?

In point of fact, you do see them use mistform. Particularly on tanks, though also in other situations where they're likely to take damage. For example, it's not unheard of for Nightblades to slot Mist Form in vAS specifically to counter the flames.

Now, Sorcs can streak across the arena to safety, but that's because it's the only gap closer in the game that doesn't require a target.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

That's a no because Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Streak out perform it and if you have ever fought a decent Sorcerer or Nightblade you would know that a Nightblade who uses Shadow Cloak and Shadow Image would abuse it by setting a Shadow Image on top of a Cliff or higher Floor and have their pursuer follow them off the Cliff or to a lower floor and then teleport back to the top level to reset the fight and/or divide the pursuer's and kill the ones up top while the ones below ran back up and just repeat the process endlessly which is a effective and overpowered reset button that far exceeds Mist Form and if you have ever fought a decent Sorcerer you would know that when you get them low they just Streak over the Moon and back despite the increased cost per use to reset the fight or just to run away and even if you chase them on a Horse with extra speed from CP they still outrun you with Streak and let's compare that to Mist Form and well you just get your head bashed in hoping that you can Line of Sight them Long enough to get away or recover, so please tell me how your opinion on that.

It sounds like you need to learn how to manage your foes.

Man, you would hate dealing with my PvP sorc build, and Bolt Escape isn't even a major factor.

If your biggest complaint about sorcs is that they can run away from you? You have not dealt with toxic PvP sorcs. With a toxic PvP sorc, you cannot see what's going on. Your brain will be overloaded from useless information, swarmed with pets, hard CCed, and executed before you even understand what just happened.

And, yeah, learning how to Bolt Escape and 180 is a very important piece of muscle memory to develop.

How do I feel about fighting sorcs? Not bad. They're a little slippery, but Bolt Escape chews into their offensive and defensive resource pool, pressure one as it's running, keep the pressure on, and they will bleed themselves dry. Let up, and they'll come back to bite you. So, really, it's a no brainer.

Deal with them at range. Bolt Escape has a fixed distance associated with it, so if you get inside that range, be prepared to be stunned, if they decided to try to bolt through you.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

These are not even remotely the same thing. Streak is a gap closer. Cloak is a stealth skill. Mistform is a mitigation buff (and big one.)

Yes Streak is a Gap Closer that also can Line of Sight you by passing by you and I have seen players that I assume are using controller with low sensitivity when turning take 1-2 seconds to respond with their attack after the stun and it is also a escape and a effective fight reset button and not just a gap closer and Mist Forms Damage Reduction is a joke compared to Shadow Cloak with or without Shadow Image and again also for Streak resetting fights and escaping to recover easily.

For the cost, Mist Form is one of the best mitigation skills in the game. It's a flat mitigation buff that will resist more damage than your average tank's block.

However, and this is very important, it doesn't make you invincible.

Mistform is an amazing skill in PvE, because it takes fixed values and lets you work around them.

In PvP, it's very limited. If you looked at it and thought, "this will make me invincible," it won't. Realize you're going into combat against players who can realistically push 10k DPS after Battle Spirit into you per second. That will burn you in a matter of moments. Put simply, this is not the counter you're looking for.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TempestM wrote: »

So?

[snip]

Let me point out the things you got wrong.

I don't think it's fair to assume he never used the skill and let me break it down to you, if you have ever fought a Nightblade in PvP and used anything like Radiant Magelight then you would understand the frustration...

According to achievement statistics, I've killed, at least, several hundred Nightblades in PvP. I also main nightblades.

So, here's the thing about this. If you're complaining that Radiant didn't immediately expose the Nightblade you're looking for, that's because they actually know what they're doing. From the driver's seat, Cloak has a much higher skill floor than most people realize.

To be honest, dealing with enemy nightblades, Radiant is a waste. Tag 'em with an Acid Spray, or wall of zap. Force them out of stealth by applying damage. Razor legos is still a good option for pinning down a Nightblade before they run. If you don't press, you won't be able to control where they are, or what they're doing, and they'll slip away.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...if you use a detection potion...

Just, don't. They're a waste of money more often than not.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...people who use Mist Form are slow and Visible with ZERO recoveries and a far lower chance to recover or escape then those who use Shadow Cloak and that's a fact.

Then, here's a wild thought, don't use Mist Form. If you want a survival surge, slot Swarming Scion, or Barrier instead, and hold your ult until you need it.

Mist Form will not deliver the same kind of survivability, and generally, it's not useful for countering human opponents who see Mist Form and can rationally understand that you're burning resources to avoid a burst of damage.

Again, Mist Form is something you pop when you're about to get hit with a heavy attack, or can't get out of an AoE callout. You're trading your ability to recover from a bad situation, and your ability to do damage, for the ability to survive a hit. That's what the skill does.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...why does Shadow Cloak get to go Invisible and be Immune to most forms of damage...

Shadow Cloak offers no immunity to damage.

None.

The best it does is offer an armor buff after being activated. Which works out to be something like 5% mitigation.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...by not being able to be targeted...

This is only accurate in so far as thinking that the only way to deal with a nightblade is by hitting them directly. Cloak does not offer any immunity to AoEs, and taking damage will force them out of cloak. So, if you're worried about Nightblades just toggling on immunity to damage... it doesn't work like that.

It gives Immunity to damage with its Damage Suppression to be exact which is a fact but more to the point I was trying to make which...

Which really shows that you've never used Cloak in any meaningful way. The damage suppression effect never worked right. To the point that the current version doesn't even have it anymore.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...they are not targetable while in Cloak and being not targetable compared to being targetable in Mist Form with a little more damage reduction then actually blocking with ZERO recoveries then id have to say Cloak is more then out performing Mist Form by not being targetable...

Which is only accurate in so far as, yes a player can target you for direct damage while Mist Form is active.

There's a certain irony here in this whole, "outperforming," argument you're trying to make.

Mist Form is primarily a PvE skill with very limited PvP applications.

Cloak is primarily a PvP skill with very limited PvE applications.

Take either one and put it in the other's territory, and the skill will look absolutely terrible.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...did someone Magelight or AoE you or detection potion you out of cloak? well no problem just click Shadow Image again then Shadow Cloak again!

Why bother with Shadow Image in that situation. If I'm close enough to someone that they can Mage Light me out of stealth, I've already done something incredibly stupid. No, if you're trying to stay in stealth, give other players a very large birth. You do not know how far they can see (even with practice, there's at least a 5m variance between characters.)

Ironically, Shadow Image is more of a detriment in that situation, because it will inform them that, "there's a nightblade here," put them on edge, and get them looking in shadows, which is exactly what you do not want. You want them relaxed, blissful, unaware that you're there, because when you start tagging them, you want their brain to be on the longest kickover before they're ready to fight. Sticking an Image out there is just a potential clue that can get them primed, alert, and waiting for you. It can literally be the difference between a successful ambush and execution or a dirt nap.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

and that is why recoveries on Shadow Cloak Should be disabled while cloaked and recoveries being disabled for a certain amount of seconds after using Bolt Escape or Shadow Image would be great as well.

You run into a lot of nightblades packing Bolt Escape? Because I don't. Let's just nerf Leap while we're at it, because that's relevant to the discussion at hand.

And of course, the recoveries are disabled when you have Cloak running. Nothing says, "I know what I'm talking about," like advocating for a nerf that matches how the ability currently functions.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

....and be able to have Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery

So, this is not true. You do not get mag recovery while cloak is active. Back when you did get mag recovery while cloaked, it was trivial to cloak forever. Hence the resulting nerf.

Additionally, it's quite possible that in PvP you will not get stam recovery while cloaked. If you use cloak to supplement your sneaking, you are still considered sneaking so your stam recovery is blocked. The only thing you get to keep is your health recovery, which isn't that useful, and this is all on a skill that can be broken by getting tagged by an acid spray before you manage to activate it.

I never said you got Magicka Recovery while cloak is active and I said it should have the same treatment as Mist Form by having all Recoveries being disabled and I was thorough about it and you can get Stamina while sneaking you just don't move...

So, speaking to someone who doesn't understand how to use Cloak, let me explain something. If you are sitting still, in one place, and casting cloak, you are wasting resources for no benefit.

Stam does not regenerate while you are moving in stealth. Stam does not regenerate while you are moving in stealth and using Cloak.

Now, if you need to recover stam while you're in stealth, you can do that, you just need to find someplace safe to bunker down. Which does kinda run contrary to the idea of someone bouncing around all the time. Or just instantly escaping.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...and you also get Magicka and Health Recovery in sneak...

So, health recovery doesn't matter. At all. Not in PvP, and barely in PvE. You get that back every other second. Except, it's worse than that, because (unless it's been changed again), health recovery is halved by battle spirit. So, if you have 30k health, and a health recovery of 1200... you get 600 health back every other second. If you got seriously beaten down, you're looking at possibly more than a minute before your health recovery gets you back up in fighting condition.

It's not just you, there are actual members of the Dev team who think health recovery matters. It does not.

What Mist Form does that is far more meaningful than block health recovery is block healing received. Now, that is a big deal.

Mag recovery in stealth is meh. Odds are, if you're actually incorporating stealth in a meaningful way as part of your build, you're stam. So, Mag recovery only helps you with a few auxiliary skills, or doesn't help you at all (depending on your class.)

The irony is, your hypothetical ganker would benefit far more from Mist Form than you would, as if you hit them with a massive AoE (like Eye of the Storm, Razor Legos or Battle Standard), they can turn it on, dance out, turn it off, and go on with their regularly scheduled murder session.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

if you are moving or not which is what people who use Shadow Cloak do they use the few seconds to get into Cloak so they can sneak around after and get recoveries going and attack you again after resetting the fight and come to think of it recoveries should also be disabled for a certain amount of seconds after using Shadow Cloak as well so Nightblades have less of a chance of resetting fights till it's in their favor to win.

For a skilled ganker, they can never, "reset," the fight. You're not on a leash. They can't pull you out of your yard and reset you. Once you know they're there, you're never going back into that relaxed mental state.

The problem here is, you don't understand what you're playing against. As a result, you have no idea what its limitations are, and no way to understand what your options really are.

Because you've never made extensive use of Cloak in PvP, you ascribe it godlike powers that it does not possess. If you'd spent time in PvP on a nightblade, you'd understand exactly how the class plays. You'd have learned what Cloak does and does not do. You'd have learned how Cloak users move. That last piece is incredibly important. You're talking about players Imaging out, but I'm willing to bet that 99 times out of 100, the Nightblades you're fighting aren't using Image. It's just that the moment they go invisible, you have no frame of reference to predict their actions.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...while people who use Mist Form get bashed on hoping to escape before they die...

Yeah, this is back to misunderstanding how these skills work. Mist Form is a terrible escape skill. It's great for soaking off some heavy damage, but it is trivial to track a mist formed vampire. Elusive Mist used to be a top tier escape skill. Back when it didn't block recovery. Because you could keep misting out (this was before it was a toggle), and could out distance unmounted players, while still keeping them locked down in combat so they couldn't mount up. But, somewhat obviously, they don't balance the game around mechanics that were changed seven years ago.

Oh I do understand how Mist Form works very well and miss the days when it had something like I forgot which its been awhile but like 52% or 54% movement speed that stacked with other speed boosts and I'm glade you agree that its a terrible skill and just wish you saw how unfair Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Bolt Escape are compared to it.

No, just that it's not a PvP focused skill. Mist Form is still exceptionally useful in certain situations. It's a godsend for vAS, and can be exceptionally useful in a tank's toolbox. However, if you're trying to use it as an escape, that's not what the skill does.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...i was wondering if Shadow Cloak could be balanced like Mist Form was by disabling recoveries while cloaked...

Which goes back to the point, where as I said, Shadow Cloak already has recovery side effects.

I think I already made my point on this but yeah it needs more recovery side effects like disabling all recoveries while cloaked by Shadow Cloak and for a certain amount of seconds after so Nightblades can't spam reset fights all day till the fight is in their favor.

Again, you cannot reset a human player. You can reset PvE encounters through leashing. But live players do not work that way. Once you know a nightblade is there, they (should) lose the ability to take you by surprise. If you don't have a plan for dealing with nightblades, you've already made a tragic mistake, and it doesn't matter how much hit and run they engage in, you will lose. So, plan around their actual limitations. Not just, "oh, I brought these absolutely worthless detect pots that do nothing."

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...and can Streak and Shadow Image the great escapes next to Shadow Cloak have recoveries be disabled by a certain amount of seconds after being used please?

Hilariously, Streak already has a mechanic to prevent you from Streaking away forever. Because, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, sorcs would streak out, and just keep going. So, now, Streak has increasing costs when you use it multiple times in quick succession. You're literally asking for a skill that was already balanced, to be nerfed, because you've never used it and don't understand how it works.

I get the same vibe from your complaint about Shadow Image. Because, you can only Shadow back to a single location. There are ways to exploit this (much like with Undo), but they're very limited, so saying, "this skill is far too powerful," sounds more like a personal issue.

[snip]

I really like how you assume me and other people don't know how things work or how to adapt to them and I'm not sorry to say you are completely wrong...

No, I'm not.

You've repeatedly ascribed functions to Cloak that do not exist, and advocated for a nerf that is already part of the skill. This tells me that you've never made serious use of cloak in PvP. You can say, "no, no, no, I'm an expert," but the fact that you said Cloak should block mag recovery means you don't know the skill at all.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...your assumption that I'm a bad player that needs to learn to adapt is a joke because I don't have a problem killing Nightblades or Sorcerer's but I do have a problem with fights that last over 20 or 30 mins 1v1 because a class has a skill or skills that allow them to reset the fight as much as they want.

I never assumed you were a bad player. I can tell, from what you have written, that you have a limited frame of reference for how other classes play. That's not an assessment of you as a player, but it is an assessment of your ability to deal with specific builds that cause you problems.

If you're getting into a 1v1 for more than five or ten minutes, it's not worth it. The AP payout is not worth hanging around for. At that point, cut and get out. Go someplace else. It's not happening at someplace important or it wouldn't be a 1v1. Playing catch and release with gankers is a losing proposition. If you want to take out gankers, then you need to gear up with a gank build of your own, and snuff them the instant they step out of hiding.

The only time you'd even want to consider long PvP engagements is in the IC, but even then, if a fight is going on, long enough for the other player to break and reengage, they're not carrying enough Tel Var to matter. If you pressed them long enough for them to back off, they're going to run and bank. So, again, you're playing a losing proposition. They want your TV, but they're not carrying much (if any) of their own. There's no upside for you staying in the fight, unless you're the hunter, and (like I said) if the hunter comes back, you know they're hungry (and don't have any Tel Var to lose.)

Your problem with Cloak isn't, actually, Cloak. Your problem with Cloak is that you've built it up to be much more powerful than it actually is. You've ceded the psychological game to the ganker, and basically abdicated your ability to kill them. If you're going up against an experienced ganker who cloaks, you're psychologically prepping yourself to lose, and as a result, you're throwing. Whether you realize it or not.

What you need to do is learn the skill.

You need to kill that idea of the apotheosis Cloak. So you can actually plan and strike when a Nightblade pops up.

[edited to remove quote]

starkerealm wrote: »

TempestM wrote: »

So?

[snip]

I play both Sorc and NB lol, I know how those skills work, I just don't think that the only counters devs decide to keep in next Update are healthy

Let me point out the things you got wrong.

Those aren't even my posts you're quoting further so

[edited to remove quote]

starkerealm wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

I think I already made my point on this but yeah it needs more recovery side effects like disabling all recoveries while cloaked by Shadow Cloak and for a certain amount of seconds after so Nightblades can't spam reset fights all day till the fight is in their favor

OP, this last part of your sentence, that is the essence of playing nightblade. the nightblade playstyle is exactly that - opportunistic. It seems like you dont understand that. Cloak and shade are designed to do exactly what you described - reset the fight till it's in your favor. The nightblade you are describing arent built tanky and arent brawlers that stand their ground. What you want is for nightblades to play on YOUR terms, which ironically is what you are accusing them of doing.

There's a general misunderstanding about PvP in ESO, and I see it all the time.

The idea is: You get two players, put them together, and they fight each other.

That's not how it works.

1v1 in ESO is frequently decided in the first couple seconds of the engagement. Players prep to kill each other before the other player can react. (That's not just a nightblade thing, it's every class.) They'll do it in different ways. They may apply enough DoTs that the other player will be dead a few seconds later, but the fight is already over.

Sometimes... okay, most of the time, those strategies are pretty inelegant, but they deliver a lot of damage.

So, you still run into a lot of people who walk into PvP with this idea that they'll alternate abilities with their opponent and it will be this drawn out slugfest, but, the truth is, experienced PvPers will snuff you as fast as possible. You'll be dead before you can react in most cases.

(That's also why the whole, "reset the fight," line irks me, because as a Nightblade main, once I lose the element of surprise, my night just got dramatically more tedious. It's about capitalizing on that first second, before the other player knows what's happening. It's a lot harder to get that second if they know that they're being stalked.)

I see the "reset the fight" thing from your viewpoint now, and I must say I agree. It isnt really resetting the fight. That is a good point.

To the OP, I know you may not like the playstyle, but it is a valid, legitimate playstyle and as such the game provides many tools to counter it. Cloak/Shade isnt as overpowered as you think.

Sephyr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

Mist From can be accessed by any class but the skills you have mentioned are class specific, in my opinion they should have their unique things such as being able to recovery stats while in stealth.

Mist Form can be accessed by any Class yes but do you see Sorcerer or Nightblade using it?

In point of fact, you do see them use mistform. Particularly on tanks, though also in other situations where they're likely to take damage. For example, it's not unheard of for Nightblades to slot Mist Form in vAS specifically to counter the flames.

Now, Sorcs can streak across the arena to safety, but that's because it's the only gap closer in the game that doesn't require a target.

In my experience, I run Elusive Mist on my gankblade because I often get caught in rough situations where without it, I'd have been stopped and slaughtered. Elusive Mist gives me the ability to soak up the damage, get through a lot of what they're trying to lay down as I LoS and cloak out. Similarly with my Sorc, it gives me a chance to endure the damage as I turn around to stun-escape from the rest before I pop my invisibility pot. It worked before it was a toggle and that method still works because people refuse to run detection counters for the most part.

In PvE, on my other MagBlade, Blood Mist has been vital for my "clutch tanking" when the actual tank dies and I still use Elusive Mist on my Sorc because it allows me to endure boss mechanics more reliably than shielding and blocking because I'm already out of Stamina (vLoM HM for example).

To add to your point about the whole "resetting the fight" thing, it's pretty true. I usually don't go after a target twice because once that element of surprise is gone, if they're a veteran player? They're already looking for me so I get the heck out of there.

Yeah, and one of the most dangerous things is a veteran player who looks like they're a lost and confused newbie, when you're trying to loop back in for the kill, but in reality, has a plan to turn a ganker into paste.

I took out a bunch during MYM on my alt account's DK, simply by having an execute strategy when they'd try to take another swipe at me. (And, didn't die to many the first time, simply because they're beefier than their health lets on.) "But, hey, they've only got like 600CP, how dangerous could the be?" *Crunch* Irony being, I don't even, particularly, like DKs. There's also the huge irony that Chains (and leash) are a nice counter to Bolt Escape. The sorc's costs keep going up, but the DK's don't.

starkerealm wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

Mist From can be accessed by any class but the skills you have mentioned are class specific, in my opinion they should have their unique things such as being able to recovery stats while in stealth.

Mist Form can be accessed by any Class yes but do you see Sorcerer or Nightblade using it?

In point of fact, you do see them use mistform. Particularly on tanks, though also in other situations where they're likely to take damage. For example, it's not unheard of for Nightblades to slot Mist Form in vAS specifically to counter the flames.

Now, Sorcs can streak across the arena to safety, but that's because it's the only gap closer in the game that doesn't require a target.

In my experience, I run Elusive Mist on my gankblade because I often get caught in rough situations where without it, I'd have been stopped and slaughtered. Elusive Mist gives me the ability to soak up the damage, get through a lot of what they're trying to lay down as I LoS and cloak out. Similarly with my Sorc, it gives me a chance to endure the damage as I turn around to stun-escape from the rest before I pop my invisibility pot. It worked before it was a toggle and that method still works because people refuse to run detection counters for the most part.

In PvE, on my other MagBlade, Blood Mist has been vital for my "clutch tanking" when the actual tank dies and I still use Elusive Mist on my Sorc because it allows me to endure boss mechanics more reliably than shielding and blocking because I'm already out of Stamina (vLoM HM for example).

To add to your point about the whole "resetting the fight" thing, it's pretty true. I usually don't go after a target twice because once that element of surprise is gone, if they're a veteran player? They're already looking for me so I get the heck out of there.

Yeah, and one of the most dangerous things is a veteran player who looks like they're a lost and confused newbie, when you're trying to loop back in for the kill, but in reality, has a plan to turn a ganker into paste.

I took out a bunch during MYM on my alt account's DK, simply by having an execute strategy when they'd try to take another swipe at me. (And, didn't die to many the first time, simply because they're beefier than their health lets on.) "But, hey, they've only got like 600CP, how dangerous could the be?" *Crunch* Irony being, I don't even, particularly, like DKs. There's also the huge irony that Chains (and leash) are a nice counter to Bolt Escape. The sorc's costs keep going up, but the DK's don't.

Oh definitely with that first bit. There's been a couple of times when I thought they were lost and confused and completely got my face kicked in. After the first few times of seeing that happen, I realized never go for the second attempt because once that element of surprise is gone? It's really hard to recover from that. Unless I know I can get away with it. Like one time when I hid out in an enemy taken Chalman and kept stunning people from stealth and then scampering off just to keep them on their toes, hoping to create some form of distraction while we took back Bleaks. It worked for a little while, until they got wise and just ignored me.

consequance is they ran away so youve won dude. congratz lol

Your recoveries are nerfed on mist form because people figured out how to perma mist around obstacles while dragging full groups behind them for 30 minutes.

starkerealm wrote: »

You weren't talking about PvP or PvE. "Just, this skill should be nerfed, because this other skill isn't strong enough."

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

while people who use Mist Form get bashed on hoping to escape before they die in PvP

If you can read, in the OP I was talking about PvP so please fact check before you post.

starkerealm wrote: »

Given it has pretty reliably gotten 40+ kills in BGs... yeah, I'm happy with it.

As far as anyone else is concerned those are words and not facts unless you can prove it with a video and not a screenshot so we can point out all that fight resetting if there was any.

starkerealm wrote: »

Except, that's not what the skill is, or what it does. This entire thread is like complaining, "Infuse Weapon is a terrible execute. Nerf Killer's Blade," and when people point out, "Infuse isn't an execute," getting very offended, because you've been trying to use it as one.

Mistform is not an escape skill. If you want to use it like that, you can, and it can assist in making an exit, but it's not how the skill is designed to work.

I mean, really, I can just stop here, this is your entire issue. You're intentionally misusing a skill and then complaining it doesn't perform as well as skills that are designed for that purpose.

One of the Morphs of Mist Form is Elusive Mist and Elusive among other things in its definition and of describing it is how it can be used to escape and Bolt Escape literally has Escape in it's name[snip]

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Your recoveries are nerfed on mist form because people figured out how to perma mist around obstacles while dragging full groups behind them for 30 minutes.

It's not Mist Form's fault when full zergling groups don't use Negate Magic with Roots and Stuns to kill an escaping Vampire or at least have Poisons slotted to increased Magicka Cost to Mist Form while chasing them, but it's ok for a Nightblade to use Shadow Image then Shadow Cloak or a Sorcerer to spam Bolt Escape leaving the full zergling groups in the dust with next to zero counter play? so yes Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Bolt Escape need to be balanced out like Mist Form so they too have no recoveries by disabling all three recoveries in Stealth from using Shadow Cloak and for a certain amount of seconds after it wears off and for Shadow Image and Bolt Escape to have recoveries disabled for a certain amount of seconds after it's used just to be fair so they can't reset the fights all day till the fights are in their favor.

starkerealm wrote: »

Don't forget 100% uptime Batswarm while misted, with Batswarm healing through the mist. Man, that was a minute ago.

Blood Mist heal is a joke and does not heal through even 1 person hitting you 99% of the time so don't even act like its overpowered dude.

[edited for baiting]

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

You weren't talking about PvP or PvE. "Just, this skill should be nerfed, because this other skill isn't strong enough."

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

while people who use Mist Form get bashed on hoping to escape before they die in PvP

If you can read, in the OP I was talking about PvP so please fact check before you post.

Let's take a look.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Mist Form and its Morphs were nerfed by disabling Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery but my concern is why does Shadow Cloak get to go Invisible and be Immune to most forms of damage by simple avoiding damage by not being able to be targeted and be able to have Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery while people who use Mist Form get bashed on hoping to escape before they die in PvP and i was wondering if Shadow Cloak could be balanced like Mist Form was by disabling recoveries while cloaked and can Streak and Shadow Image the great escapes next to Shadow Cloak have recoveries be disabled by a certain amount of seconds after being used please?

Ah, see, the only mention of PvP at all in the original post was complaining about how users of Mist Form are berated (and we assume murdered) for using the ability.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Given it has pretty reliably gotten 40+ kills in BGs... yeah, I'm happy with it.

As far as anyone else is concerned those are words and not facts unless you can prove it with a video and not a screenshot so we can point out all that fight resetting if there was any.

There was none. There doesn't need to be any. But I won't be providing a video[snip]. And yes, it would take hours, 30-40 minutes to get the footage, and then hours uploading a raw video to youtube that no one would watch.

[snip]

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

One of the Morphs of Mist Form is Elusive Mist and Elusive among other things in its definition and of describing it is how it can be used to escape and Bolt Escape literally has Escape in it's name[snip]

Language is, at best, a weak justification. The Celerity set (Quick Serpent) does not grant you celerity, it simply speeds you up. It's up to you to exercise the precision involved in the name.

Bolt Escape can be used offensively (to bolt through the target), and is arguably better suited to that purpose (an offensive CC), than to taking flight.

Shadowy Disguise does not disguise you as anything.

Ironically, Elusive Mist lives up to its name as it will make the user harder to track and hit. Even though it does not make them impossible to track. They're "elusive," not, "invisible."

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Your recoveries are nerfed on mist form because people figured out how to perma mist around obstacles while dragging full groups behind them for 30 minutes.

It's not Mist Form's fault...

Well, yeah, because it's not a sapient entity. [snip]

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...when full zergling groups don't use Negate Magic with Roots and Stuns to kill an escaping Vampire or at least have Poisons slotted to increased Magicka Cost to Mist Form while chasing them...

So, this may be a shocker for you, but the people who were going up against these builds weren't idiots. Used to be both forms of Mist Form specifically granted immunity to Roots and Slows. (So, you could stun them but there was no point, because the bats would keep them at full health regardless.)

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...but it's ok for a Nightblade to use Shadow Image then Shadow Cloak...

Because it is not, literally, invincible.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...or a Sorcerer to spam Bolt Escape leaving the full zergling groups in the dust with next to zero counter play?

Because Chains, Leash, Prison, Time Stop, or, literally dozens of other abilities, don't exist. There's absolutely no counterplay to someone running away... unless you slot abilities that will pull them back into the fight or stun them.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

so yes Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Bolt Escape need to be balanced out like Mist Form...

...because actually adapting and learning how to deal with other classes is unreasonable.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Don't forget 100% uptime Batswarm while misted, with Batswarm healing through the mist. Man, that was a minute ago.

Blood Mist heal is a joke and does not heal through even 1 person hitting you 99% of the time so don't even act like its overpowered dude.

[edited for baiting]

[snip] I'm talking about an era when a single vampire could quite literally lock down hundreds of players in PvP and become completely unkillable. If you wanted vampirism to be an instant, "I win," button, you're about seven years too late to the party.

[edited for baiting]

starkerealm wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

OP is very much correct in his assessment of streak (and I would add dark deal as the combo that makes it OPaf) and also shade + cloak which when used correctly are completely uncounterable RESETS for any fight. These are so powerful that only when you fail to use them correctly and over commit can you ever die, THAT IS THE POINT.

It completely impossible to, force a "reset," in fight against another player.

You can leash PvE opponents to reset those fights. Combat stops, everything goes back to the way it was.

You cannot do that with another player.

You cannot cause another player to forget you were there.

You cannot cause another player to forget the abilities you used or the strategy you employed.

The entire concept of resetting the fight doesn't work, because the player you're fighting against can adjust their strategy to deal with what they've seen.

Nightblades have the best tools for extracting from a fight. As you said, unless they over commit they can withdraw and reassess. But a Gankblade that botches their kill will be at a severe disadvantage should they try again. They can escape, sure, but unless they're careful, they really can't "surprise," the other player a second time.

Sorcs bolting away, and you probably know this, have a pretty severe skill threshold. You need to know exactly how to break line of sight in your current environment, and get into stealth ASAP. Trying to bolt away from another Sorc or Warden can go horribly wrong as their pets will just keep following you to your new location. And, as much as people like to hold up the idea of a sorc streaking away over the rainbow... that doesn't happen. Mag recovery isn't that good. The experience issue is for players who don't know how much you need to pressure a sorc trying to make an escape. Even something as simple as chains can completely screw a sorc over, because they'll run out of resources and still be stuck in melee combat.

That bolded part is exactly why I carry invisibility potions and even those I carry a few different types (invisibility+speed, invisibility+health, or unstoppable+invisbility+health if I know I'm in a big pickle). It's not even just on sorcs either. NB with my shade (if no one is camping my shade, so it helps conserve that magicka). I use it the most on my Magicka Necromancers because mobility is pretty rough.

As a gankblade myself? I know I've mentioned this to add to your point somewhere else — if I fail that gank the first time, I hardly go at that target a second time unless I know I can make the kill that second time or I'm trolling in keeps I've snuck into to, pun intended, keep them busy. Both are seldom if at all, especially with the former. It's just too risky so I slip out and I'm left with the hope that I've left the player on edge enough that it becomes a distraction later down the road and they get picked off by someone else.

I've also come across people who employ the counters correctly and when they do? I've only escaped probably 25% of the time in every mode of stealth there is. I found my chances of survival when that happens go up if I stay and fight as compared to just trying to spam what ever just to get away unless it's a zerg or a ball group, in which case I'm probably dead anyways.

Edit: So for me, I don't see it resetting so much as I see that it's more for survival. But people don't like it when we survive.