Shadow Cloak vs Mist Form vs Streak

starkerealm

Sephyr wrote: »

Edit: So for me, I don't see it resetting so much as I see that it's more for survival. But people don't like it when we survive.

Of course not. Because it disrupts their fantasy for how PvP should be, without regard for the way PvP actually works.

You can see that incredibly clearly in @Merforum's comment about wanting classes completely removed from PvP.

If you look at PvP and want it to be a 1v1 slapfight between two players, the classes are actively toxic to that. As a result, they actively want anyone who threatens that fantasy, whether it's through a well placed snipe, crushing prison and mages wrath, or even just abuse of chains and petrify, removed from the game, so they can get back to that, "natural" state where it's just two dudes in heavy armor slapping each other. But, the only time you'd find that in ESO's PvP, is when you're fighting someone who's incredibly green, and hasn't learned how to play their class, yet.

EDIT: It's also not about them winning the fight, they want to punish anyone who refused to fight by their arbitrary rules. That's why the OP is so upset. They want to punish nightblades and sorcs, because they don't want to learn how to pressure, they want to keep their version of PvP, but when presented with real players, those players refuse to engage on their terms.

DrSlaughtr

Oh geeze.

I can channel accelerate once and cloak twice before I'm out of mag. That gives me 6 seconds to get away.

Most sorcs can streak twice in a row. Some three times before they're done.

Mist form was abused to where many players were able to mist infinitely, ignoring most convenientional attacks. Because they were griefers and got off on forcing groups to spend 10 minutes trying to kill them. Because you can't just leave a sturdy enemy behind in the keep to flag it.

Yes, if a skill is abused, it gets adjusted.

Mist is still powerful. I see plenty of people use it, but not trolls. People use it to get away and it works.

NagualV

starkerealm wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Edit: So for me, I don't see it resetting so much as I see that it's more for survival. But people don't like it when we survive.

Of course not. Because it disrupts their fantasy for how PvP should be, without regard for the way PvP actually works.

You can see that incredibly clearly in @Merforum's comment about wanting classes completely removed from PvP.

If you look at PvP and want it to be a 1v1 slapfight between two players, the classes are actively toxic to that. As a result, they actively want anyone who threatens that fantasy, whether it's through a well placed snipe, crushing prison and mages wrath, or even just abuse of chains and petrify, removed from the game, so they can get back to that, "natural" state where it's just two dudes in heavy armor slapping each other. But, the only time you'd find that in ESO's PvP, is when you're fighting someone who's incredibly green, and hasn't learned how to play their class, yet.

EDIT: It's also not about them winning the fight, they want to punish anyone who refused to fight by their arbitrary rules. That's why the OP is so upset. They want to punish nightblades and sorcs, because they don't want to learn how to pressure, they want to keep their version of PvP, but when presented with real players, those players refuse to engage on their terms.

This pretty much...

Merforum

starkerealm wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

OP is very much correct in his assessment of streak (and I would add dark deal as the combo that makes it OPaf) and also shade + cloak which when used correctly are completely uncounterable RESETS for any fight. These are so powerful that only when you fail to use them correctly and over commit can you ever die, THAT IS THE POINT.

It completely impossible to, force a "reset," in fight against another player.

You can leash PvE opponents to reset those fights. Combat stops, everything goes back to the way it was.

You cannot do that with another player.

You cannot cause another player to forget you were there.

You cannot cause another player to forget the abilities you used or the strategy you employed.

The entire concept of resetting the fight doesn't work, because the player you're fighting against can adjust their strategy to deal with what they've seen.

Nightblades have the best tools for extracting from a fight. As you said, unless they over commit they can withdraw and reassess. But a Gankblade that botches their kill will be at a severe disadvantage should they try again. They can escape, sure, but unless they're careful, they really can't "surprise," the other player a second time.

Sorcs bolting away, and you probably know this, have a pretty severe skill threshold. You need to know exactly how to break line of sight in your current environment, and get into stealth ASAP. Trying to bolt away from another Sorc or Warden can go horribly wrong as their pets will just keep following you to your new location. And, as much as people like to hold up the idea of a sorc streaking away over the rainbow... that doesn't happen. Mag recovery isn't that good. The experience issue is for players who don't know how much you need to pressure a sorc trying to make an escape. Even something as simple as chains can completely screw a sorc over, because they'll run out of resources and still be stuck in melee combat.

If you say something like, 'sure something seems OP against inexperienced players but against best player in the world it is only very good'. That is kind of missing the point. And look at your example, of course one sorc can streak to catch up to another sorc who is streaking, no need for pets tho. I think you understand that when you compare different things you want as many variables to be identical as possible except the one thing you are comparing. Therefore, I am talking about the same level player fighting against each other, if one has streak/shade/cloak and the other does NOT, using those skills alone effectively make all the difference.

I only use RESET because OP used that term but you know what it means, it means 100% escape with no counter, to either just get away or attack again. As I said I usually play all classes, meaning I want to test a new stam build, I put the same stuff on all 6 stam toons and do maybe 2 BGs with each one. I will admit NB is too much micro management for my liking but shade/cloak is OP when used correctly. And with the same build/skills, stamsorc is hands down easiest to stay alive, while at the same time allowing for most damage.

Your argument is not whether these skills are OP or not, because EVERYONE KNOWS THEY ARE, your argument is since that is my playstyle I don't want it to change. Which is all well and good, and I personally like how OP those skills are when I use them too and it is fun, so I don't necessarily think they must change. But if you want to be honest, you have to admit there are ways to make them less OP. And I have made some suggestions that I'd like to hear people's opinions on. The OPs point that they nerfed mist for some of the same reasons why these are OP but why not be consistent, is valid you must admit.

BTW I am calling for a very interesting test which is a NO CLASS skill/passive campaign but with CP to see if that offers the elusive 'balance' every says they want to PVP, rather than No-CP/No-proc which isn't at all balanced and kind of boring.

DrSlaughtr

This is the first time I've seen anyone ask for a no class campaign. What a world we live in.

Merforum

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is the first time I've seen anyone ask for a no class campaign. What a world we live in.

Actually people have been asking for 'balance' for years in PVP (to the major detriment of PVE BTW). So my question is can this 'balance' be achieved continuing to tweak class skills/passives until they are all identical OR just run a test with a PVP campaign that just disables the class skills/passives, so you just have all the non-class skills/passives and CP enabled?

Pretty simple really, it makes as much sense as NO-CP to me. BTW I bet that sounded crazy until they implemented it too.

DrSlaughtr

Merforum wrote: »

Pretty simple really, it makes as much sense as NO-CP to me. BTW I bet that sounded crazy until they implemented it too.

Those things are not remotely the same but who am I to get in the way of a pipedream. Good luck!

starkerealm

Merforum wrote: »

If you say something like, 'sure something seems OP against inexperienced players but against best player in the world it is only very good'. That is kind of missing the point. And look at your example, of course one sorc can streak to catch up to another sorc...

I never said that, and I didn't bother to elaborate when I did suggest sorcs have a good skillset to counter one another. You want to lock down a sorc that wants to streak away, Crushing Prison or Encase are fantastic ways to give them something else to think about. Streaking after a retreating enemy is a losing proposition, because it will end with you just as tapped out of resources as they are. The only time a Sorc can afford to use Streak that aggressively, would be in a Stam or Hybrid setup, where they're not dependent on their mag pool to dispose of their opponent. In fact, builds like that can streak more aggressively than mag sorcs, because they have far fewer things chewing on their mag pool, and can afford to stack relatively painlessly. Your mag sorc might be able to get off a third streak in quick succession, but it's not unreasonable for a PvP Stamsorc to bounce around four times, and still be ready to fight.

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I only use RESET because OP used that term but you know what it means, it means 100% escape with no counter, to either just get away or attack again.

No, it means, "to reset the fight," as in, "to start over."

Running away is, you know, called, "running away."

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Your argument is not whether these skills are OP or not, because EVERYONE KNOWS THEY ARE, your argument is since that is my playstyle I don't want it to change.

No, I'm arguing that your playstyle is incompatible with game's ruleset. Or, more specifically that Freid's is.

In casual tabletop games, tweaking the way it works is pretty common. If players are engaging in strategies that the group finds unfun, they may ban them.

That's not an option in competitive play, and, when we're talking about online games, you can't, "house rule," away major system features. However, Fried, at least, does appear to be approaching PvP from the perspective of saying they should be allowed to punitively nerf playstyles that disrupt their preferred version of the meta, for no other reason than they don't want to learn the PvP environment, and would rather apply their own version over it.

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

BTW I am calling for a very interesting test which is a NO CLASS skill/passive campaign but with CP to see if that offers the elusive 'balance' every says they want to PVP, rather than No-CP/No-proc which isn't at all balanced and kind of boring.

"Very interesting," is debatable. I don't hold it against you for making the suggestion, it's just, it would be a pretty dull experiment. Now, Gil may decided to run another experiment like that, though the removal (and gradual reimplementation) of proc sets does somewhat suggest they were more at fault in creating that completely botched PvP meta from the last couple years, than the classes were.

In particular, where classes often do have counterplay, some proc set combos really do not have any meaningful counterplay.

Sephyr

starkerealm wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Edit: So for me, I don't see it resetting so much as I see that it's more for survival. But people don't like it when we survive.

Of course not. Because it disrupts their fantasy for how PvP should be, without regard for the way PvP actually works.

You can see that incredibly clearly in @Merforum's comment about wanting classes completely removed from PvP.

If you look at PvP and want it to be a 1v1 slapfight between two players, the classes are actively toxic to that. As a result, they actively want anyone who threatens that fantasy, whether it's through a well placed snipe, crushing prison and mages wrath, or even just abuse of chains and petrify, removed from the game, so they can get back to that, "natural" state where it's just two dudes in heavy armor slapping each other. But, the only time you'd find that in ESO's PvP, is when you're fighting someone who's incredibly green, and hasn't learned how to play their class, yet.

EDIT: It's also not about them winning the fight, they want to punish anyone who refused to fight by their arbitrary rules. That's why the OP is so upset. They want to punish nightblades and sorcs, because they don't want to learn how to pressure, they want to keep their version of PvP, but when presented with real players, those players refuse to engage on their terms.

It's pretty much this exactly. It's the same in a few other threads. There's another forum poster in another thread that want Nightblades 'banned' from the game. Not just deleted. Banned. All because they got killed while fighting an Imperial City boss and put themselves in a position where it clearly didn't go well for them. Instead of admitting that there were things they could do differently, they want to punish everyone playing a Nightblade because they didn't get to kill that boss.

And then we get on the subject of OP. To me, something's only OP when there's no counterplay at all or if there's unintended effects of an ability. With Cloak, there's a plethora of ways to counter it on Live and in the PTS, detection is getting a buff where I have to really think carefully on choosing targets when I try to gank or bomb. When trying to escape, it sounds like going to be even harder. I've a few ideas to maybe get around that, but I'm waiting until PTS fully wraps up before committing (though I probably should get the Ring of the Wild Hunt anyways). That's probably for another thread though.

Basically, when you're in these threads — you're one of those that I'm always learning something from. It's just a shame that others don't actually look at what's being said.

Fried_Fowl

Vevvev wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Blood Mist heal is a joke and does not heal through even 1 person hitting you 99% of the time so don't even act like its overpowered dude.

It is pretty strong against ball groups since you get max healing out of it, but that's my only use for it though and as a result I have gone Elusive Mist since it's better in most situations.

The only part where its good against ball groups is to avoid the damage passing through but if they focus you by sitting on top of you for a few seconds then you will not live very long at all.

starkerealm wrote: »

Ah, see, the only mention of PvP at all in the original post was complaining about how users of Mist Form are berated (and we assume murdered) for using the ability.

The OP was obviously about how these skills work in PvP so please don't kid yourself thanks.

starkerealm wrote: »

There was none. There doesn't need to be any. But I won't be providing a video[snip]. And yes, it would take hours, 30-40 minutes to get the footage, and then hours uploading a raw video to youtube that no one would watch.

Just make sure when you talk about getting 40+ kills in 1 BG that you can provide proof so we can point out how unfair Sorcerer and Nightblade are with how they can reset the fight with overpowered skills like Shadow Image, Shadow Cloak and Bolt Escape but it's ok I got you covered with this video where the Youtuber showcasing the overpowered classes says with his own words that the Nightblade reset the fight at 16:38 in a video and I will post with a timestamp.

https://youtu.be/yzOxZIFkMwk?t=998

starkerealm wrote: »

Language is, at best, a weak justification. The Celerity set (Quick Serpent) does not grant you celerity, it simply speeds you up. It's up to you to exercise the precision involved in the name.

Bolt Escape can be used offensively (to bolt through the target), and is arguably better suited to that purpose (an offensive CC), than to taking flight.

Shadowy Disguise does not disguise you as anything.

Ironically, Elusive Mist lives up to its name as it will make the user harder to track and hit. Even though it does not make them impossible to track. They're "elusive," not, "invisible."

There is nothing justified about skills that allow you to reset a fight till it's in your favor to win.

Bolt Escape can be used Offensively or Defensively or even to reset the fight entirely.

Shadowy Disguise can be used to Disguise you as thin air so you can reset a fight or run away with your tail between your legs.

Ironically, tracking something means you are following something and in this game if you're tracking someone down you're trying to kill someone who is trying to escape so why did you say "Mistform is not an escape skill."? Because Elusive Mist was made for escaping for classes you don't have one and if you're gonna debate me about it then give a good reason why it's not please.

starkerealm wrote: »

Well, yeah, because it's not a sapient entity. [snip]

Mist Form is a sapient entity because the mist is the Vestige in the form of mist and the character that you play, but more to the point that its not the players fault for using Mist Form back in the golden days but it was other full groups of players not using Negate Magic to pop the Vampire out of Mist so they can Root, Stun and burn him before he can get out of the bubble to use Mist again or at least use Poisons that increase the cost of Magicka by 10% or something to those effects but hey at least these days you can burn them in 30 seconds instead of chase them for 30 minutes while Sorcerers and Nightblades can reset fights for more than 30 hours if they wanted to.

starkerealm wrote: »

So, this may be a shocker for you, but the people who were going up against these builds weren't idiots. Used to be both forms of Mist Form specifically granted immunity to Roots and Slows. (So, you could stun them but there was no point, because the bats would keep them at full health regardless.)

I said use Negate Magic the Sorcerer Ultimate to hard counter Mist Form with your group and then have them Root and Stun before you burn them down and use Poisons and the like to drain resources from the Mist Form user but these days Mist Form is just a punching bag that you use to Escape and hope you get to safety before you die and with or without Negate Magic you can easily kill a Mist Form user.

starkerealm wrote: »

Because it is not, literally, invincible.

That's because you don't need to use any damage reduction sets at all because you can just build full damage and get away with it if you use Shadow Image and Shadow Cloak or Bolt Escape with skills that give you enough protection to last long enough to hit your fight reset skills as long as you don't get greedy and overextend.

starkerealm wrote: »

Because Chains, Leash, Prison, Time Stop, or, literally dozens of other abilities, don't exist. There's absolutely no counterplay to someone running away... unless you slot abilities that will pull them back into the fight or stun them.

Not sorry to tell you but Stun's don't matter that much because Sorcerers just keep up protection buffs like Shields etc that will last them through the incoming damage long enough to break out of it and Bolt Escape to safety as shown here by this video again in another timestamp which will start 22:45 into the video so your counter play to Bolt Escape is invalid in most cases to veteran Sorcerers which is what you run into 80% if not more of the time.

https://youtu.be/yzOxZIFkMwk?t=1365

starkerealm wrote: »

...because actually adapting and learning how to deal with other classes is unreasonable.

I adapted to it, for example a Shadow Cloak and Shadow Image user I just stand at the Shade with Radiant Magelight refreshed while people chase him and when he pops back up the cliff on the shade I let him have it and they try to spam Shadow Image and run away but die trying or they pop a Shadow Image again and run right back off the cliff and it repeats till they die and for people who spam Bolt Escape I do the same thing and chase them or if I'm on another Class I spam Gap Closers that deal a good amount of Damage and at that point if they try to Bolt Escape by poles, trees and rocks to Line of Sight you from getting off another gap closer so then you just hope battle status wears off fast enough to hope on your horse so you can catch up before they Bolt Escape over the horizon or far enough away to use a Invisible Potion to where you have to hope you ran the right way with your Detection Potion and I can go on but the point is if a Sorcerer wants to get away he can do it without fail and if a Nightblade wants to get away they can just Stun you then cloak and run away with all the movement speed they have in their build before you can break free and Radiant Magelight them and that kind of power to reset a fight till you win and be able to 100% escape when you want to is what's really unreasonable no matter how adapted you are to fighting those classes they will always get away or reset the fight if they want to.

starkerealm wrote: »

[snip] I'm talking about an era when a single vampire could quite literally lock down hundreds of players in PvP and become completely unkillable. If you wanted vampirism to be an instant, "I win," button, you're about seven years too late to the party.

Thanks for being more specific but talking about Vampire ball groups when it was a thing was a long time ago and has nothing to do with this conversation in 2021 so please don't derail the thread with how Mist Form worked in the Stone ages and if you're gonna talk about old stuff at least keep it closer to the year were in, thanks.

Merforum wrote: »

OP is very much correct in his assessment of streak (and I would add dark deal as the combo that makes it OPaf) and also shade + cloak which when used correctly are completely uncounterable RESETS for any fight. These are so powerful that only when you fail to use them correctly and over commit can you ever die, THAT IS THE POINT.

I also play on ALL 6 classes and test out every build on all 6 at the same time to see which class performs best with a particular build. And Sorc and NB are the only classes that can go FULL DAMAGE because they have INSTANT RESET with these couple of skills. As OP says anyone who doesn't admit that is just biased to their current playstyle and don't want to lose this amazing advantage.

Mistform is continuously getting nerfed as the OP says for much LESS versatility than streak/shade/cloak, and even though everyone can use mist it has huge drawbacks from being vamp. Unlike when it was just a no brainer to have on all toons.

The funny thing is the excuse that people use to defend these OP skills is that since I put all my gear/skills into damage and I am squishy I need these OP skills to escape. But from the opposite point of view, if these escape skills weren't so Overpowered, you would have to wear a defensive set and learn other ways to defend yourself other than instant reset button, and the side benefit would be to reduce the overall insane power.

These same people usually complain about TANKY builds which is really funny. They build for 100% damage and complain that they are squishy, while others build for 50/50 or 70 tank/30 damage and they complain, if you are 1% tanky you should have no damage. It is literally the opposite, no one should be able to build 100% damage and have instant fight reset button.

BTW I will also say that with a 50/50 tanky build warden and necro might be OP too, especially with the delayed damage of BB/shalk and high mit/heal. Overall all mag toons except sorc and DK, temp are pretty much less effective in PVP. But I would say all this is a matter of tweaking here and there, while streak/cloak/shade are OPaf.

How to fix, shade should be line of sight, so you can't put it behind a rock or on other floor and teleport. Also range of it should be much shorter. Maybe make the shade stay within 12 meters of player and move with them. Maybe require the shade to actually be attacking the enemy with bow to be activate to teleport to. etc. And/or add a cast time to the teleport so it can be interrupted.

Cloak could only be allowed while out of combat. Or be disabled if you are in combat and someone is looking directly at you, kind of like hypnotize but in reverse. It could have a scaling cost and/or a cooldown. Maybe it should have a cast time so if you interrupt or hit the person it fails. Maybe it should also be like mist in that it uses resources per second and disables recoveries.

Streak is completely OP. It has a huge, AOE stun like 15 meters long and probably 5 meters wide, and I think it stuns everyone inside that area. Also it doesn't require a target. JUST THE STUN of this skill is better than any stun in the game even dawnbreaker and meteor. Literally the only thing you have to worry about is streaking off a ledge and falling to your death, other than that pushing streak 2 times and you are out of 99% of danger, push 3 times and you reset (while spamming dark deal).
Fixes could be that it only stuns person at beginning or end of streak in a small radius and/or requires you to target them. Instead of ramping cost which is useless even on stamsorc (which I can do 3-4 streaks in a row), it should have cooldown of like 2 seconds. And/or make it 7 meters instead of 15 range. And/or add a cast time and/or blockable/dodgable/interruptible.

That was well said.

starkerealm wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

OP is very much correct in his assessment of streak (and I would add dark deal as the combo that makes it OPaf) and also shade + cloak which when used correctly are completely uncounterable RESETS for any fight. These are so powerful that only when you fail to use them correctly and over commit can you ever die, THAT IS THE POINT.

It completely impossible to, force a "reset," in fight against another player.

You can leash PvE opponents to reset those fights. Combat stops, everything goes back to the way it was.

You cannot do that with another player.

You cannot cause another player to forget you were there.

You cannot cause another player to forget the abilities you used or the strategy you employed.

The entire concept of resetting the fight doesn't work, because the player you're fighting against can adjust their strategy to deal with what they've seen.

Nightblades have the best tools for extracting from a fight. As you said, unless they over commit they can withdraw and reassess. But a Gankblade that botches their kill will be at a severe disadvantage should they try again. They can escape, sure, but unless they're careful, they really can't "surprise," the other player a second time.

Sorcs bolting away, and you probably know this, have a pretty severe skill threshold. You need to know exactly how to break line of sight in your current environment, and get into stealth ASAP. Trying to bolt away from another Sorc or Warden can go horribly wrong as their pets will just keep following you to your new location. And, as much as people like to hold up the idea of a sorc streaking away over the rainbow... that doesn't happen. Mag recovery isn't that good. The experience issue is for players who don't know how much you need to pressure a sorc trying to make an escape. Even something as simple as chains can completely screw a sorc over, because they'll run out of resources and still be stuck in melee combat.

What you said about Nightblades that play the Gankblade style botching the Gank and Sorcerer's having a severe skill threshold is completely false and this video timestamp starting at 14:28 into the video will showcase a Gankblade whos at a disadvantage because his presents is already known still manages to kill an entire group despite of it and even the Youtuber showing the fight says he reset the fight multiple times during the fight which was said at 16:28 and again at 16:41and then right after that fight is the Sorcerer having no severe skill threshold killing a entire group so again I'm going to have to say that your post is just not correct and here's the video starting with the Nightblade followed by the Sorcerer 1vX.

https://youtu.be/yzOxZIFkMwk?t=868

Merforum

Sephyr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

Edit: So for me, I don't see it resetting so much as I see that it's more for survival. But people don't like it when we survive.

Of course not. Because it disrupts their fantasy for how PvP should be, without regard for the way PvP actually works.

You can see that incredibly clearly in @Merforum's comment about wanting classes completely removed from PvP.

If you look at PvP and want it to be a 1v1 slapfight between two players, the classes are actively toxic to that. As a result, they actively want anyone who threatens that fantasy, whether it's through a well placed snipe, crushing prison and mages wrath, or even just abuse of chains and petrify, removed from the game, so they can get back to that, "natural" state where it's just two dudes in heavy armor slapping each other. But, the only time you'd find that in ESO's PvP, is when you're fighting someone who's incredibly green, and hasn't learned how to play their class, yet.

EDIT: It's also not about them winning the fight, they want to punish anyone who refused to fight by their arbitrary rules. That's why the OP is so upset. They want to punish nightblades and sorcs, because they don't want to learn how to pressure, they want to keep their version of PvP, but when presented with real players, those players refuse to engage on their terms.

It's pretty much this exactly. It's the same in a few other threads. There's another forum poster in another thread that want Nightblades 'banned' from the game. Not just deleted. Banned. All because they got killed while fighting an Imperial City boss and put themselves in a position where it clearly didn't go well for them. Instead of admitting that there were things they could do differently, they want to punish everyone playing a Nightblade because they didn't get to kill that boss.

And then we get on the subject of OP. To me, something's only OP when there's no counterplay at all or if there's unintended effects of an ability. With Cloak, there's a plethora of ways to counter it on Live and in the PTS, detection is getting a buff where I have to really think carefully on choosing targets when I try to gank or bomb. When trying to escape, it sounds like going to be even harder. I've a few ideas to maybe get around that, but I'm waiting until PTS fully wraps up before committing (though I probably should get the Ring of the Wild Hunt anyways). That's probably for another thread though.

Basically, when you're in these threads — you're one of those that I'm always learning something from. It's just a shame that others don't actually look at what's being said.

I and I think the OP have said that we play all classes and have no preferred one. And thus are just pointing out how OP some skills are on some classes compared to others. The people who only play one class and continuously complain about 'balance' are the ones attempting to force everyone into one playstyle or asking for nerfs. I'm just bringing up objective facts about some skills.

BTW I was talking about STAM SORC, yes, stam sorc is more powerful than any other class using the SAME GEAR AND non-class skills because of their passives, and streak plus dark deal (3-4 streaks easily using mag, while damaging with stam) make them OP. Also whether I build for full damage, 50/50 or mostly tanky, streak is just a 2 button press to get you out of anything. It stuns, does damage, doesn't need to target, close gap or escape, unblockable/undodgeable, makes you untargetable, is instantaneous, causes lag/desync at times, I might be missing some, like I said the only drawback it has is if you aim wrong and fall off a cliff. It's the most broken single skill in game for PVP but nearly useless in PVE.

Plus NB shade/cloak is equally OP as far as highest damage potential plus ESCAPE, but is harder to play than stam sorc. I am not saying that other classes don't have counters and are usable. I am speaking from the perspective of which class performs the best when using mostly the same gear/skills across all 6 classes, USING THEM. I am not talking from the perspective of 'I got killed by this so nerf it', that is projection.

Maybe ZOS won't implement No class skill/passive campaign but they might just create another PVP skill line with a streak clone, also cloak, shade, BB, shalk skill clones usable by everyone (maybe jabs and fossilize too). Then call it balanced. I'm being partially sarcastic because I don't believe balancing PVE and PVP CLASSES at the same time is possible. People already use the same 8-10 non-class skills/ult on stam and maybe 2-3 class skills.

DrSlaughtr

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

What you said about Nightblades that play the Gankblade style botching the Gank and Sorcerer's having a severe skill threshold is completely false and this video timestamp starting at 14:28 into the video will showcase a Gankblade whos at a disadvantage because his presents is already known still manages to kill an entire group despite of it and even the Youtuber showing the fight says he reset the fight multiple times during the fight which was said at 16:28 and again at 16:41and then right after that fight is the Sorcerer having no severe skill threshold killing a entire group so again I'm going to have to say that your post is just not correct and here's the video starting with the Nightblade followed by the Sorcerer 1vX.

https://youtu.be/yzOxZIFkMwk?t=868

So you found a video showing a NB brawler killing obviously lesser skilled players. What does that have to do mist?

If you want to do what shadowy disguise does, use invisible pots. It's literally the same thing and it lasts longer. But you'll quickly learn it isn't as easy as you think.

I honestly don't care if they buff mist or not but please stop misrepresenting skills. This is the whole reason the current pts patch sends us into a ridiculous tank meta. Players who don't understand how nightblades work and how easy it can be to counter. They just got mad about getting killed during MYM while trying to repair doors or quest. So they flooded the forums with complaints.

Ask them to return mist form to it's previous incarnation if you like but don't ignore the reason the resource Regen was nerfed. Forcing 12 people to chase you around a keep they just took for 20 minutes is not the game working as intended and that's why it was nerfed.

starkerealm

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Mist Form is a sapient entity...

Right.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

[snip] I'm talking about an era when a single vampire could quite literally lock down hundreds of players in PvP and become completely unkillable. If you wanted vampirism to be an instant, "I win," button, you're about seven years too late to the party.

Thanks for being more specific but talking about Vampire ball groups when it was a thing was a long time ago and has nothing to do with this conversation in 2021 so please don't derail the thread with how Mist Form worked in the Stone ages and if you're gonna talk about old stuff at least keep it closer to the year were in, thanks.

Let's stitch this back together.

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Your recoveries are nerfed on mist form because people figured out how to perma mist around obstacles while dragging full groups behind them for 30 minutes.

Don't forget 100% uptime Batswarm while misted, with Batswarm healing through the mist. Man, that was a minute ago.

So, you understand that @TheEndBringer and I are discussing something that is not current, at it explains why Mist Form has the limitations it has today.

This important if you want to understand why Mist Form exists in its current state. If you do not know why, Mist Form exists in its current state, you cannot offer an informed opinion on how it should behave.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Don't forget 100% uptime Batswarm while misted, with Batswarm healing through the mist. Man, that was a minute ago.

Blood Mist heal is a joke and does not heal through even 1 person hitting you 99% of the time so don't even act like its overpowered dude.

[edited for baiting]

I was talking about Devouring Swarm. I was talking to @TheEndBringer, about how Devouring Swarm and Elusive Mist worked together to establish the current state of Mist Form.

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

...you can provide proof so we can point out how unfair Sorcerer and Nightblade are...

Strange way to spell Stamplar, but okay.

Actually, fun trivia there: I'm pretty sure Templars are the only class where I've accidentally gotten Merciless multiple times. When I got it on sorcs, I always knew exactly what I was doing.

Fried_Fowl

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So you found a video showing a NB brawler killing obviously lesser skilled players. What does that have to do mist?

I agree that they are lesser skilled players by most of the video for not using detection skills or potions with a longer range of detection but that's being fixed next patch and I hope they add even more meters because the buff was not enough at all and what it has to do with mist is not the right question but the thing to notice is why nobody was using mist and just using Shadow Cloak with Shadow Image or Bolt Escape and that's because they are using overpowered skills that far exceed anything that can be done with Mist Form and they need to be adjusted by disabling recoveries on them to make the playing field fair.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you want to do what shadowy disguise does, use invisible pots. It's literally the same thing and it lasts longer. But you'll quickly learn it isn't as easy as you think.

It is as easy as you think with just a little bit of practice and comparing Invisible Potions to Shadow Cloak is a joke because it has a 45 second cooldown without enchanted jewelry and Shadow Cloak has a 1 second cooldown till it can be used again.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I honestly don't care if they buff mist or not but please stop misrepresenting skills. This is the whole reason the current pts patch sends us into a ridiculous tank meta. Players who don't understand how nightblades work and how easy it can be to counter. They just got mad about getting killed during MYM while trying to repair doors or quest. So they flooded the forums with complaints.

So far it looks like you have misrepresented skills and you assume players don't understand how Nightblades work and how not easy it is to counter them and by that I mean they run movement speed in their build to outrun Detection skills and Shadow Image to teleport out of danger and detection range and they hit Shadow Cloak and then just reset the fight till they win or run away with zero consequences.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Ask them to return mist form to it's previous incarnation if you like but don't ignore the reason the resource Regen was nerfed. Forcing 12 people to chase you around a keep they just took for 20 minutes is not the game working as intended and that's why it was nerfed.

It would be nice if they reverted the change to Mist Form and I didn't ignore the reason it was nerfed as i said before all people had to do was cast Negate Magic on the Mist Form user or use Poisons that increased resource cost and if that wasn't enough then ask in these PTS forums for them to increase the duration and/or potency of those potions to fix the problem with chasing Mist Form users.

DrSlaughtr

You can run mist form right now for way longer I can ever stay in stealth. I only get 3 pops of shadowy and my mag is gone. I'm dead if I'm caught.

The only reason I'm in this thread is because it's bashing other classes rather than make compelling arguments to buff your chosen skill. "Nerf these skills or buff mist" isn't an argument. It's a demand.

starkerealm

Merforum wrote: »

BTW I was talking about STAM SORC, yes, stam sorc is more powerful than any other class using the SAME GEAR AND non-class skills because of their passives, and streak plus dark deal...

Oh no. No, you don't want that.

Okay, so, Dark Deal is a trap. It looks really good. But, it is one of the least effective things in your toolbox for a stamsorc. If you really need stamina back on command, you're probably better off with Meditation (Ironically), but that should never happen. The trick with Stam Sorcs is that they have several mag skills that just do not care about the size of your mag pool, for their effect.

Bolt Escape is one, and it can do some wild things. We've mostly focused on it as an escape tool, but, in addition to being a stun, there are places in the game where Bolt Escape can let you bypass mechanics, and at this point, I'm pretty sure it's intended. (For example, you can bolt escape through the walking walls in Depths of Malatar, or out of the ring on Vatashran.) There are also places where you can bypass platforming, by just bolting over. In the Imperial City Sewers, this can let you access some very tricky spots, from which to launch an ambush on an unsuspecting player.

The Clanfear should not be overlooked. It's a health scaling click heal, and it does not lose aggro on your target just because you lost track of them. It can be an amazing bloodhound to track down fleeing players. (Ironically, my track record for running down bolting sorcs probably has a lot to do with these guys.)

Crit Surge is, as always, Crit Surge, and one of the best heals in the game. (If you don't run a clanfear, and in PvE you might not, then Crit Surge is all the self heals you'll ever need. Even in PvP, it's a valuable skill.)

Rune Cage (which, for some reason, I keep calling Crushing Prison but, whatever) is not a bad idea on a stam sorc in PvP simply because it forces your opponent to burn stam. I'm not wild about the defense morph, simply because you can't control who will get stunned, and can't really capitalize on it, but if you follow a hit from stealth (with Snipe or something similar) with an immediate stun, it can really mess up a player's ability to respond.

Now, Meditate is off class, and it's stam return is much lower than Dark Deal, however it also gives you a passive 5k shield whenever you block if it's slotted (on your current bar), grants major protection while active, and restores all three resources. Whether this is actually more valuable for you is a personal choice, and I'm not holding it up as, "OMG, you need to run this," just, that it's a marginally better option than Dark Deal unless you're having serious sustain issues.

Dark Deal also irritates me, as it doesn't benefit from most of the Dark Magic passives. It doesn't hit anyone so Blood Magic doesn't trigger. Exploitation doesn't grant Savagery, so you don't benefit from the crit bonus. It does count for Expert Mage, so that's 2% extra weapon damage, but, if you wanted something for that, you'd actually get a better return on investment from slotting a Fighter's Guild ability. This isn't a mark against Dark Deal, just, part of why I say, "nah, don't touch it."

Sephyr

.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bolt Escape is one, and it can do some wild things. We've mostly focused on it as an escape tool, but, in addition to being a stun, there are places in the game where Bolt Escape can let you bypass mechanics, and at this point, I'm pretty sure it's intended. (For example, you can bolt escape through the walking walls in Depths of Malatar, or out of the ring on Vatashran.)

Wait, wait, wait, wait... You can Streak through the walls in Malatar?! Well TI-also-L'ed something new about those abilities. I never really thought to try.

starkerealm

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So you found a video showing a NB brawler killing obviously lesser skilled players. What does that have to do mist?

I agree that they are lesser skilled players...

And that's where this conversation ends.

So, I realize this is giving you difficulty, but, ESO's PvP is incredibly skill based. More than reaction based. Times to kill are incredibly low, even with players going into tankier builds. For a skilled PvPer, and Kristofer is quite good (or at least was, I haven't seen much from him in ages), an unskilled player is basically a speed bump. It's the same way I can easily rack up double digit kills in BGs. By the time the new player has started to understand what is happening, they're already dead. Either, actually on the floor with zero hit points, or ticking down with lethal DoTs they're unaware of.

It's not about Nightblade, or Sorc, or Templar, or Dragon Knight, or Warden, or Necromancer. It's about player skill. A skilled player can do disgusting things with their class. 1vX is never about build, or class, or spec, it's about the person playing that character being able to keep ahead of everyone else around them.

That's where this irritates me, but more, this is where you fail. You're looking at the Nightblade who killed you, but, if you took Nightblades out of the game, they'd still wreck you. They'd just do it on a Templar, or a Necromancer.

I mean, if you want to talk about unpleasant fights, it's the Necromancer, not the Sorc, or the Nightblade. In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, those guys are singularly unpleasant. Manageable, but unpleasant.

starkerealm

Sephyr wrote: »

.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bolt Escape is one, and it can do some wild things. We've mostly focused on it as an escape tool, but, in addition to being a stun, there are places in the game where Bolt Escape can let you bypass mechanics, and at this point, I'm pretty sure it's intended. (For example, you can bolt escape through the walking walls in Depths of Malatar, or out of the ring on Vatashran.)

Wait, wait, wait, wait... You can Streak through the walls in Malatar?! Well TI-also-L'ed something new about those abilities. I never really thought to try.

Fun trick if DPS are struggling, on a sorc tank, grab the boss, bolt through the wall, and chill with him on the other side of the room, while the DPS work on opening the wall.

Merforum

starkerealm wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

BTW I was talking about STAM SORC, yes, stam sorc is more powerful than any other class using the SAME GEAR AND non-class skills because of their passives, and streak plus dark deal...

Oh no. No, you don't want that.

Okay, so, Dark Deal is a trap. It looks really good. But, it is one of the least effective things in your toolbox for a stamsorc. If you really need stamina back on command, you're probably better off with Meditation (Ironically), but that should never happen. The trick with Stam Sorcs is that they have several mag skills that just do not care about the size of your mag pool, for their effect.

Bolt Escape is one, and it can do some wild things. We've mostly focused on it as an escape tool, but, in addition to being a stun, there are places in the game where Bolt Escape can let you bypass mechanics, and at this point, I'm pretty sure it's intended. (For example, you can bolt escape through the walking walls in Depths of Malatar, or out of the ring on Vatashran.) There are also places where you can bypass platforming, by just bolting over. In the Imperial City Sewers, this can let you access some very tricky spots, from which to launch an ambush on an unsuspecting player.

The Clanfear should not be overlooked. It's a health scaling click heal, and it does not lose aggro on your target just because you lost track of them. It can be an amazing bloodhound to track down fleeing players. (Ironically, my track record for running down bolting sorcs probably has a lot to do with these guys.)

Crit Surge is, as always, Crit Surge, and one of the best heals in the game. (If you don't run a clanfear, and in PvE you might not, then Crit Surge is all the self heals you'll ever need. Even in PvP, it's a valuable skill.)

Rune Cage (which, for some reason, I keep calling Crushing Prison but, whatever) is not a bad idea on a stam sorc in PvP simply because it forces your opponent to burn stam. I'm not wild about the defense morph, simply because you can't control who will get stunned, and can't really capitalize on it, but if you follow a hit from stealth (with Snipe or something similar) with an immediate stun, it can really mess up a player's ability to respond.

Now, Meditate is off class, and it's stam return is much lower than Dark Deal, however it also gives you a passive 5k shield whenever you block if it's slotted (on your current bar), grants major protection while active, and restores all three resources. Whether this is actually more valuable for you is a personal choice, and I'm not holding it up as, "OMG, you need to run this," just, that it's a marginally better option than Dark Deal unless you're having serious sustain issues.

Dark Deal also irritates me, as it doesn't benefit from most of the Dark Magic passives. It doesn't hit anyone so Blood Magic doesn't trigger. Exploitation doesn't grant Savagery, so you don't benefit from the crit bonus. It does count for Expert Mage, so that's 2% extra weapon damage, but, if you wanted something for that, you'd actually get a better return on investment from slotting a Fighter's Guild ability. This isn't a mark against Dark Deal, just, part of why I say, "nah, don't touch it."

OK so we agree sorc is OPaf. And we could go into MagSorc with even more somewhat OP stuff like curse/fury. No one can deny sorc is best class in game hands down, even in PVE with easy mode pet build you can do literally all content. Like I said though I don't want to see nerfs especially in PVE. Just would like to see some counter for Streak/BoL in PVP.

If you do streak, DD, streak, DD, your Stam/Health could be topped off, then you can keep running, OR RESET the fight and come back, especially when someone is wasting resources sprinting after you, after 3 seconds with full resources just streak back at them. You can't do that with any other skill, especially meditate.

BTW Mist can also bypass the vateshran mechanics. I don't assume that stuff is intended.

Sephyr

starkerealm wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

.

starkerealm wrote: »

Bolt Escape is one, and it can do some wild things. We've mostly focused on it as an escape tool, but, in addition to being a stun, there are places in the game where Bolt Escape can let you bypass mechanics, and at this point, I'm pretty sure it's intended. (For example, you can bolt escape through the walking walls in Depths of Malatar, or out of the ring on Vatashran.)

Wait, wait, wait, wait... You can Streak through the walls in Malatar?! Well TI-also-L'ed something new about those abilities. I never really thought to try.

Fun trick if DPS are struggling, on a sorc tank, grab the boss, bolt through the wall, and chill with him on the other side of the room, while the DPS work on opening the wall.

I'll probably have to try this next time I'm in there for some HM pledges. Thanks for the tip!

starkerealm

Merforum wrote: »

OK so we agree sorc is OPaf.

No. I never said that. Or at least, I haven't said it in years.

If you're know what you're doing, any class will perform for you. Every class can be toxic to no end. Sorcs? Sure. Nightblades? Yeah. Dragon Knights? Oh, absolutely. Necromancers? They can be so disgusting you don't even want to see them again. Templars? Yeah, oh yes. Wardens? You just got mauled by a Disney Princess.

This is your problem. You're fixing on a class you don't fully understand, and saying, "I can't beat them." Now... you actually lost the fight when you said, "I can't beat them." It's not a class balance thing, it's a psychological hangup. Sorcs are mobile, but fragile. Nightblades are hard to pressure, but have a limited margin of error. If you play those classes to the point that you can be effective with the class, you'll learn how to kill them.

This one really is a player skill issue. Not a balance problem.

And, I mean, honestly, you're the one who said, "since almost all builds in PVP are like 8 non-class skills and 2 class skills," but, that's really not true with MagSorcs. It's also not true with Nightblades. You'll see, at a minimum, three or four class abilities, and frequently more. (To be fair, it's also not true with the other classes, either.)

But, you also said, "Your argument is not whether these skills are OP or not, because EVERYONE KNOWS THEY ARE." That's the problem, I know they're not, and I understand why they're not.

Merforum wrote: »

BTW Mist can also bypass the vateshran mechanics. I don't assume that stuff is intended.

I didn't assume it was intended when I encountered in DoM, when it popped up again in Frost Vault, and in Vatishran? Yeah, Finn's fairly sharp, and I would be genuinely shocked if Rich didn't know about that.

Fried_Fowl

TheEndBringer wrote: »

You can run mist form right now for way longer I can ever stay in stealth. I only get 3 pops of shadowy and my mag is gone. I'm dead if I'm caught.

Sounds like a personal problem.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The only reason I'm in this thread is because it's bashing other classes rather than make compelling arguments to buff your chosen skill. "Nerf these skills or buff mist" isn't an argument. It's a demand.

Not bashing just proving the facts, thanks.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So you found a video showing a NB brawler killing obviously lesser skilled players. What does that have to do mist?

I agree that they are lesser skilled players...

And that's where this conversation ends.

No the conversation did not end because that was a test you failed, that was to see if anyone was paying attention to the fight in the video and he was constantly being hit while cloaked because people were using detection potions among other things and the Nightblade was fighting through the counter with overpowered skills like Shadow Image.

Here is a timestamp that starts at 17:13 for the Video for when the Youtuber starts calling out the AoE's and Stealth Detect Potions even though they were doing it long before then to prove my point that you were not paying attention and looking for any reason to prove me wrong:

https://youtu.be/yzOxZIFkMwk?t=1033

starkerealm wrote: »

So, I realize this is giving you difficulty, but, ESO's PvP is incredibly skill based. More than reaction based. Times to kill are incredibly low, even with players going into tankier builds. For a skilled PvPer, and Kristofer is quite good (or at least was, I haven't seen much from him in ages), an unskilled player is basically a speed bump. It's the same way I can easily rack up double digit kills in BGs. By the time the new player has started to understand what is happening, they're already dead. Either, actually on the floor with zero hit points, or ticking down with lethal DoTs they're unaware of.

It's not that the players are unskilled it's that the skills Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Bolt Escape are overpowered.

starkerealm wrote: »

It's not about Nightblade, or Sorc, or Templar, or Dragon Knight, or Warden, or Necromancer. It's about player skill. A skilled player can do disgusting things with their class. 1vX is never about build, or class, or spec, it's about the person playing that character being able to keep ahead of everyone else around them.

Wrong, These skills I just mentioned are overpowered and give a large advantage and it's a fact dude.

starkerealm wrote: »

That's where this irritates me, but more, this is where you fail. You're looking at the Nightblade who killed you, but, if you took Nightblades out of the game, they'd still wreck you. They'd just do it on a Templar, or a Necromancer.

This is where you fail, a Nightblade can't kill me they always end up running away or I walk slowly to a keep laughing with my buffs and heals up, because they simply can't shred through 41k Physical and 40k Spell Resist with 2900ish Critical Resist with high sustain among other things that I'll keep to myself and skilled reflexes on healing back up and cleansing with a decent amount of damage and penetration so you assuming I'm upset or w/e at a Nightblade ganking me is absolutely false because besides that build and class I also play Nightblade and you're just dead wrong man.

starkerealm wrote: »

I mean, if you want to talk about unpleasant fights, it's the Necromancer, not the Sorc, or the Nightblade. In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, those guys are singularly unpleasant. Manageable, but unpleasant.

Necromancers are a joke when you know how to counter, if you run into a block build you just put on a Knight Slayer set build and it's game over and if they use Grave Yard Nuking then that just sounds like a personal problem.

starkerealm

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So you found a video showing a NB brawler killing obviously lesser skilled players. What does that have to do mist?

I agree that they are lesser skilled players...

And that's where this conversation ends.

No the conversation did not end because...

No, that was the end of your argument. Player skill was the determinate factor there.

Merforum

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

You can run mist form right now for way longer I can ever stay in stealth. I only get 3 pops of shadowy and my mag is gone. I'm dead if I'm caught.

Sounds like a personal problem.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The only reason I'm in this thread is because it's bashing other classes rather than make compelling arguments to buff your chosen skill. "Nerf these skills or buff mist" isn't an argument. It's a demand.

Not bashing just proving the facts, thanks.

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So you found a video showing a NB brawler killing obviously lesser skilled players. What does that have to do mist?

I agree that they are lesser skilled players...

And that's where this conversation ends.

No the conversation did not end because that was a test you failed, that was to see if anyone was paying attention to the fight in the video and he was constantly being hit while cloaked because people were using detection potions among other things and the Nightblade was fighting through the counter with overpowered skills like Shadow Image.

Here is a timestamp that starts at 17:13 for the Video for when the Youtuber starts calling out the AoE's and Stealth Detect Potions even though they were doing it long before then to prove my point that you were not paying attention and looking for any reason to prove me wrong:

https://youtu.be/yzOxZIFkMwk?t=1033

starkerealm wrote: »

So, I realize this is giving you difficulty, but, ESO's PvP is incredibly skill based. More than reaction based. Times to kill are incredibly low, even with players going into tankier builds. For a skilled PvPer, and Kristofer is quite good (or at least was, I haven't seen much from him in ages), an unskilled player is basically a speed bump. It's the same way I can easily rack up double digit kills in BGs. By the time the new player has started to understand what is happening, they're already dead. Either, actually on the floor with zero hit points, or ticking down with lethal DoTs they're unaware of.

It's not that the players are unskilled it's that the skills Shadow Cloak, Shadow Image and Bolt Escape are overpowered.

starkerealm wrote: »

It's not about Nightblade, or Sorc, or Templar, or Dragon Knight, or Warden, or Necromancer. It's about player skill. A skilled player can do disgusting things with their class. 1vX is never about build, or class, or spec, it's about the person playing that character being able to keep ahead of everyone else around them.

Wrong, These skills I just mentioned are overpowered and give a large advantage and it's a fact dude.

starkerealm wrote: »

That's where this irritates me, but more, this is where you fail. You're looking at the Nightblade who killed you, but, if you took Nightblades out of the game, they'd still wreck you. They'd just do it on a Templar, or a Necromancer.

This is where you fail, a Nightblade can't kill me they always end up running away or I walk slowly to a keep laughing with my buffs and heals up, because they simply can't shred through 41k Physical and 40k Spell Resist with 2900ish Critical Resist with high sustain among other things that I'll keep to myself and skilled reflexes on healing back up and cleansing with a decent amount of damage and penetration so you assuming I'm upset or w/e at a Nightblade ganking me is absolutely false because besides that build and class I also play Nightblade and you're just dead wrong man.

starkerealm wrote: »

I mean, if you want to talk about unpleasant fights, it's the Necromancer, not the Sorc, or the Nightblade. In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, those guys are singularly unpleasant. Manageable, but unpleasant.

Necromancers are a joke when you know how to counter, if you run into a block build you just put on a Knight Slayer set build and it's game over and if they use Grave Yard Nuking then that just sounds like a personal problem.

You are right but I have to exit this thread I think. We have all agreed streak/shade/cloak are OP. But we probably shouldn't change those OP crutch skills because some people who only play one class need those.

DrSlaughtr

This was less about buff mist and just another complaint thread about streak and cloak. Mist performs great. It has crazy advantages. I run it on my magplar and magden. I don't run it on my NBs because I would still die. They're not built to use it.

starkerealm

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This was less about buff mist and just another complaint thread about streak and cloak. Mist performs great. It has crazy advantages. I run it on my magplar and magden. I don't run it on my NBs because I would still die. They're not built to use it.

It is a cheap way to trip From the Shadows... not sure if it's more efficient than popping cloak, though.

Fried_Fowl

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So you found a video showing a NB brawler killing obviously lesser skilled players. What does that have to do mist?

I agree that they are lesser skilled players...

And that's where this conversation ends.

No the conversation did not end because...

No, that was the end of your argument. Player skill was the determinate factor there.

There was no skill all the Nightblade did was spam Shadow Image throughout the fight and used Shadow Cloak to recover Stamina and Health to reset the fight and the Youtuber even said he was resetting the fight many times despite the players spamming AoE and Detection on him the entire time [snip] and it proves the bias in this thread by pointing out in the video I posted that the players in the video were indeed using and spamming detection and AoE the entire time and even though I said earlier that I agreed about the pursuing players skill level with TheEndBringer it was just to see if someone would speak without bias and correct me about the players not using detection or AoE which did not happen and proved my little test about bias in this thread.

[edited for baiting]

Sephyr

starkerealm wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This was less about buff mist and just another complaint thread about streak and cloak. Mist performs great. It has crazy advantages. I run it on my magplar and magden. I don't run it on my NBs because I would still die. They're not built to use it.

It is a cheap way to trip From the Shadows... not sure if it's more efficient than popping cloak, though.

From my own experience, it really depends on the scenario. Both tend to be the same mechanically since that passive doesn't activate until you leave stealth or Mist Form, but I've used Cloak to time and line things up better with things that are also in the NB toolkit that get tripped from Stealth as well. If it's a siege battle, I'll sometimes weave in Mist Form (when abilities respond) to pick off some that fall off the wall or try to get some ganks around the area.

For PvE though, I've always woven Mist Form to keep a good uptime of From the Shadows. Cloak I've only used when the tank lost aggro of something and then I just benefited from the passive when coming back out after the enemy loses interest in me. As far as maintaining it, I had to adjust. I'm a synergy popper by nature so that helps a lot and really micromanaging my resources in CP, armor, and food. Some things still give me sustain issues (melee Magicka NB for example), but I have an easier time on Desto/Desto in PvE. PvP, if my target lasts longer than 15 seconds I just get out of there.

Vevvev

Fried_Fowl wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

It is pretty strong against ball groups since you get max healing out of it, but that's my only use for it though and as a result I have gone Elusive Mist since it's better in most situations.

The only part where its good against ball groups is to avoid the damage passing through but if they focus you by sitting on top of you for a few seconds then you will not live very long at all.

Only times I've died fighting a ball group with blood mist active was when they dropped a negate on me. Learn to stick with the blob and it'll keep you alive even while focus fired. Also add in randomized movements and in the chaos they'll miss you further increasing survivability.