Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Necromancers are overperforming
-
hundergrn✭✭✭Remathilis wrote: »New change to battle spirit: Necromancer and Warden can't enter Cyrodiil/IC.
PVP is happy. PvE is happy.
No Necro, no warden people turn to Nightblade once again for all their hate. Class gets gutted more then banned fro Cyro/IC.
Few months go by Templars come back to center for hate and over performance. Lynched from Cyro/IC
Then comes DK due to effective CC and high resist, over perform due to difficulty to kill. Axed from Cyro/IC
Sorcs remain alone and pleased as they streak and stack elemental weapon, overcharge, and third skill I forget onto LA and plink each others shields for 10-15k.
Each class has a difficult to kill counter, each class has a class that they can kill easily, each class has some cheese they can provide to harass others with.
For example, playing PvP as a Nightblade...
Sorcs are an overperforming bane of existance.
DK take forever to kill. Will melt NB with breath. Resource management crucial to outlast defensives and avoid cc.
Templars are manageable with attention to their jab and sweep.
Wardens (stamina wise) go toe to toe with burst damage and takes positioning and terrain management to deal with.
Necromancers are simple to deal with when you are aware of them. Easy to kill but easy to be killed if not paying attention to their Ultimate.
In my experience... you almost never see a Necro topping BG score cards, in kills or points on the norm. In cyro they are a great counter to large groups and are able to survive just long enough to get their ult up before being melted by the enemy faction.
Honestly don't see their overperformance as they have their strengths and weaknesses like any other class. Mid tier with group boons.
8 -
Red99✭✭✭Remathilis wrote: »New change to battle spirit: Necromancer and Warden can't enter Cyrodiil/IC.
PVP is happy. PvE is happy.
No Necro, no warden people turn to Nightblade once again for all their hate. Class gets gutted more then banned fro Cyro/IC.
Few months go by Templars come back to center for hate and over performance. Lynched from Cyro/IC
Then comes DK due to effective CC and high resist, over perform due to difficulty to kill. Axed from Cyro/IC
Sorcs remain alone and pleased as they streak and stack elemental weapon, overcharge, and third skill I forget onto LA and plink each others shields for 10-15k.
Each class has a difficult to kill counter, each class has a class that they can kill easily, each class has some cheese they can provide to harass others with.
For example, playing PvP as a Nightblade...
Sorcs are an overperforming bane of existance.
DK take forever to kill. Will melt NB with breath. Resource management crucial to outlast defensives and avoid cc.
Templars are manageable with attention to their jab and sweep.
Wardens (stamina wise) go toe to toe with burst damage and takes positioning and terrain management to deal with.
Necromancers are simple to deal with when you are aware of them. Easy to kill but easy to be killed if not paying attention to their Ultimate.
In my experience... you almost never see a Necro topping BG score cards, in kills or points on the norm. In cyro they are a great counter to large groups and are able to survive just long enough to get their ult up before being melted by the enemy faction.
Honestly don't see their overperformance as they have their strengths and weaknesses like any other class. Mid tier with group boons.
U clearly dont have enough pvp experience if u say that stamnecro re mid tier and easy to killEdited by Red99 on July 7, 2021 9:27PM6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JayKwellen wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game, 10% mitigation while having even more hot healing than magcro and perma major defile on top of that which is just lol (even tho defile got nerfed this is just wtf devs).
I don't get how stamcro is allowed to counter healing and dodge with a hard hitting semi spammable skill while lots of classes aren't even allowed to have any counters against dodge/healing/block at all. Also the class is so tanky that it's just a joke while still having a ton of peak burst which is enough to kill pretty much everything which isn't a tank (same goes for stamden but at least they nerfed Arctic a bit). There's literally not a single class or counter which is good against necro, the only "counter" is to zerg them down. Having specs which are that tanky in PvP is extremely unhealthy for the game since being (almost) immortal in any 1v1 scenario completely eliminates the purpose of PvP. Duels for example got completely annihilated by these two specs and sadly that not the only scenario in which Necro is overperforming (I honestly can't think of any scenario in which a Necro is doing bad...).
Just give Necros and Wardens their GO rank and ban them from PvP thx.
Necro has an execute?
Detonating siphon, obviously.
That's not an execute?1 -
Afterip✭✭✭Right now in Cyro i was fighting with yellow Stam NB and he destroy me 3 times in row. I used Radiant Magelight and it didnt help me to detect that sneaky NB. So NB REALLY OP CLASS right now in Cyro/IC. Why? Because Magelight skill totally broken and didn't help to catch NB. Only potions can help, buuuut they have 45s CD and 15s duration and you should choose use detect potions to see NB or tri-stat just to survive. But yeah, we will be whining about necro healing.Edited by Afterip on July 8, 2021 12:34AM4
-
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To BohnT2.
We may have had a misunderstanding. By pvp, I mean small fights of 1x1, 1x2, 2x2, 2x3,3x3 and so. In such types of combat, especially 1x1, it is extremely important to be able to control the enemy, because it depends on whether you can finish him off when he is at low hp and win the fight or not. And just in such battles, magсro is very bad with his control.
In those Situations Necromancers are the top specs, which goes so far that most tournaments limit the amount of necros you're allowed to bring to a 2v2 or 3v3.
In duels magnecro and stamnecro are again top specs because they can infinitely stall most fights and then pop a 500ult balorgh goliath to win that duel.
That power in duels is further increased by the amount of damage blastbones absorb when used properly.
You talk about necro not having control when they literally control if they want to die or not which then again results in 2 possible outcomes:
1.The necro wins
2.You draw
Which is the indicator that the class is overperforming.3 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You're picking out individual things like cloak or shade for magnb or CC for magdk and try to argue that magnecro can't be op because it's not top of the class in those categories.
You have to look at the whole package the class packs and how it works in Cyro.
But it was you who started comparing magncro and magdk in this post:Girl_Number8 wrote: »Is it that time again Bohn 😆
It has been this time since Elsweyr dropped.
Here's a short comparison of some key stats and skills from a magicka necromancer and a magdk, using the same build (which wouldn't be the case as magnecro can run 2-3 offensive sets with only one defensive one while magdk is more or less forced to run 2-3 defensive sets)
Anyway here's the Magnecro screenshots
Followed by the magdk:
I like to point out the following discrepancies in favor of magnecro:
Penetration: 6.4k vs 4.9k
Regen: 1.4kmag&1191stam vs 1.2kmag&951stam
Health: 33.9k vs 32.4k
Magdk only has an advantage in Crit chance due to major prophecy and 34.8k vs 31.5k spell resistance.
When we're looking at mitigation Necromancer is still on top even when it comes to magic damage taken due to its stats, when looking at Dot damage mitigation it's not even a competition anymore.
Especially fun to look at are some tooltips:
Degeneration: 19299 vs 16942
Spirit guardian: 6723 every 2 seconds for 2117
Cauterize: 8071 every 5 seconds for 1945
Spirit Guardian: 13448 every 2 seconds for 972
Moltenwhip with 2 stacks: 16896 for 2088
Blastbones with no damage buff: 16681 for 1258
Mortal coil: 27184 at no cost and giving 200 stamregen
Coagulating Blood: 14191 for 3662
Resistant Flesh: 17649 for 4234
As you can see there is a reason how i come to the conclusion Necromancer is overperforming.
All this hasn't even taken into account how magnecro is extremely gcd saving, none of the skills require you to waste gcds and the amount of hots allows you to be offensive much longer than others.
This also hasn't taken a look at the amount of ultimate necro can generate and how it can stall or flip fights with Ravenous goliath.
The class is overperforming and it's in desperate need of a rework in order to make it more balanced and more fun to play because right now it's neither of those two things.
And you were not objective in comparing these two classes, because you only compared healing and damage, but left СС without attention.
I used those pictures of skills and the mitigation to prove that necromancer has:
Better sustain than magdk
Much better healing
GCD saving defence and offences
And more survivability overall.
You on the other side throw in CCs which are definitely important but they're not enough to make up for all the shortcomings compared to necromancers.
Those CCs don't help you at all if you're dying too fast or if you can't go offensive because you class toolkit doesn't allow it.
2 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭90% of the people commenting in this thread about how magcro isn’t OP are probably casual players who don’t really exploit the class to its fullest (and cheesiest) potential. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 9, 2021 11:43AM1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ILOL what a way to spin things out of context. a sorcerer have streak (infinite evasion and speed) with no counters. especailly others like ball of lightning
LOL
is sorcerers overpreforming and then u want to nerf them too? [snip]
Maybe it’s just you not knowing how to counter it..
https://youtu.be/eucU43CsXvk
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 9, 2021 11:44AM2 -
Afterip✭✭✭To BohnT2
1.
In a 1x1 battle, stamina is important, because it allows you to break free, block and dodge, and the one who first brings his endurance to 0 will lose. As I wrote earlier, magnecro has the worst control. On this occasion,his opponent may not save stamina, but magnekru should save it for liberation and when it ends, no healing will help him survive the execution phase while standing in stun. I fought STAMNB 3 times in Cyrodiil and lost all 3 times, because my endurance went to 0 and he calmly finished me off. This NB had 30k hp, probably dressed in a pariah (at the same time I had 27k armor, 30k hp,)and was very good in terms of survivability(since my magic light didn't work, I could see it after drinking the potion, but since I don't have control, NB kept all his stamina and just dodged and thereby survived 15 seconds of the potion detection).
So I will repeat once again, CC in pvp is just as valuable as healing or damage.
And about goliath ult. Smart players just run away during the colossus and try to stay away from me for 20 seconds, then they continue to beat me. It's simple.
2.
When you compared Magnecro and magdk, you missed something. Dk has a very good sustain, not inferior to necro thanks to 2 passive skills: Battle Roar-When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.(when dk use leap he will heal ~2.7k and recover ~5.7k stam and magicka). Combustion-When you apply Burning to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka. When you apply Poisoned to an enemy, you restore 500 Stamina.( both of them magdk and stam\dot dk put poison or burning very often in battle).
In my opinion MagDK has very solid dps in PvP, in straight hands.. I see alot of them who do 1-2kk dps on BG, when i do only 300-600k.
3.
Posted: September 2020Sep 2020-jule 2021 nothing happend with necro , but your opinion about this class has changed to the opposite.It is widely agreed on that magicka necromancer has the worst offensive toolkit of any spec by far.
This goes so far that any set or tool that makes magnecro able to kill enemies can be seen as overperforming.
Be it Dots during scalebreaker, harmony pre nerf, OF and procs since greymoor.
When going through the toolkit it's no suprise why magicka necromancer is as bad as it is.
Riccochet Skulls: deal the same damage as other spammables but have a higher minimum traveltime than skills like force pulse (250ms) or elemental weapon (<200ms due to ranged LA minimum traveltime).
It's secondary effect is also very weak, 20% additional damage on every third cast along with a useless AoE isn't worth it.
Additionally the secondary effect stops working after you've been hit by a guard's eclipse and the only way to fix it is relogging.
Stalking blastbones have no secondary effect for 6 months now and even if you get the whole 50% damage increase you're dealing half the damage you could have dealt if the skill had properly worked. Additionally the skill often doesn't work at all, the bomber will take way too long to start moving, doesn't explode when reaching the target or doesn't deal any damage because the target simply walked away.
Graveyard: after the needed nerf to harmony graveyard went from a 20 second cooldown high burst ability to a 20 seconds wait for a 4k hit. There really isn't a point using this skill anymore.
Skeleton arcanist: Dots in general offer 2 things in eso, first additional damage outside of the ability you've used in that gcd and secondly they allow you to deal damage to dodging targets if your other skills are dodgeable and stays on a target that you can't attack right now be it via LoS or that they've ran out of your range. Well this isn't the case for this walking cotton ball thrower. Enemies walking away won't be damaged by it as it can't catch up, you can't control which target to attack, if there's an enemy with 60k hp right next to you and someone with 500hp 5m away it will never attempt to hit the guy with low Hp even though that's the target you'll want to focus.
Shock Siphon: not only does this skill deal pitiful damage to begin with, no it's also the skill in the game with the highest requirements to ever land a hit. First you have to have a body on the ground, any LoS between you and the body will break it, the target has to be between you and the body. And if you manage to do all that the skill hits for 5k damage over 12 seconds max.
And that's it, there's no other offensive skills a necromancer could use.
Scythe? Deals pitiful damage and has no offensive debuff/ buff.
You also don't have access to an offensive stun as grave grasp is not only extremely unreliable no it also doesn't deal any damage.
When looking at passives that could be a saving grace you'll be disappointed.
Having an "execute" that gives you additional crit chance when slotting skills from a skill line that you don't want to slot because they're dead weight doesn't help at all.
To make matters worse crits in PvP don't deal meaningful damage unless you build for them.
Everyone else will run procs and malacath because it results in basically a 100% crit chance while also buffing procs that couldn't crit to begin with.
Having a passive that increases your dot damage done by 15% sound great doesn't it? Well too bad that the only skills that counts as a dot for necromancer is graveyard and the tether we have already established that neither of those skills are worth using or that 15% extra damage would make them viable.
The only passive that actually increases your damage gives you 1.5k penetration that is a ~2.3% damage increase but it doesn't really matter because your damage is trash to begin with.
There is also no hope for magnecro to compensate those short comings with non class skills:
Using flame clench to have an offensive stun will give you the great experience of knocking enemies out of the range of your bombers resulting in them dealing 0 damage.
Hoping to get an execute next patch with impulse? Nope even against an enemy with 1% hp impulse deals only about 50% additional damage while doing minor damage to begin with.
Also there is no cheap ultimate that you could use on necromancer, the cheapest one you have access to is Dawnbreaker at 125ult cost but it doesn't benefit from light armor penetration or most of your CPs.
The next one is soul assault which is far from good unless you're pushing it to broken levels with a certain set.
Followed by meteor, delayed damage but you have no chance of forcing a hit and you can't really couple it with any damage because you can't rely on your bomber to hit the target in time or to hit the target at all, which will lead to you wasting 3 gcds and 200 ult and the enemy just holding block with no risk of dying.
Magicka Necromancer desperately needs to have itself freed from the slaver that is the idea of having 1 damage, 1 tanking and 1 healing skill lines.
The Class needs an actual execute on a skill that executes on demand and doesn't require you to sacrifice the blood of 13, 90 year old virgins that have performed the chicken dance prior to the ritual while singing "God save the Queen" in Swahili.
Mag necro needs an actual offensive rotation in PvP that consists of more thing than weak spammable - weak spammable - weak spammable -waiting for bomber to finally explode - weak spammable - bomber - weak spammable - waiting for 200+ ult.
All tanking and healer needs can be satisfied via morphs there is no reason to dedicate full skills to either of those archetypes when a single morph can do the job just as well.
I want to say that you have a brain and you are quite smart, but you think exclusively in a narrow way. For this reason, I no longer want to communicate with you and I withdraw myself from this topic.5 -
Raltin✭✭✭✭The ONLY thing I have to add to this is that this statement is 100% correct... for PvP. In terms of PvE, on the other hand... it's damn near the exact opposite. Necromancers as a class are practically tailor-built for PvP, while the only truly good thing in PvE they can do is tanking. Outside of PvP, where death can happen in an instant and you can respawn with all your resources refilled like in a battlegrounds match, when you take a necromancer dps, Magicka or stamina, and shove them into a prolonged PvE battle situation, one thing becomes readily apparent: they have CRAP sustain. Sure, they can regain small amounts of magick and stamina from kills happening around them, but that doesn't help you in the slightest when the boss you're up against has no additional mobs helping them.
Compare the PvE necromancer dps sustain to that of a Templar or a Nightblade... Both templars and nightblades are MASTERS of sustain... nightblade gains this from the Siphoning Attacks skill, which restores 4-5k stamina or magicka if you let it run its full 20 second duration, while also restoring health, and magicka or stamina to you for your light and heavy attacks (the health of which is a very hefty return), encouraging you to weave to the best of your ability to maintain your resource pools, which is essential to dps as weaving is an integral part of combat. Templars on the other hand have restoring aura... magplars can morph it into an absolutely MASSIVE aoe that can apply minor magicka steal to as many enemies as it hits, whereas stamplars can morph it into an instant corpse-succ ability that siphons 3-5k health and 3k stamina instantly from kills, which also has a chance to crit-heal and restore even more resources... combine that with the two rune focus morphs; which depending on the morph not only provide major resolve for a hefty 5.9k armor boost, but also restore roughly 5k stamina or magicka over their run time, and HEALS the templar about 1.5k health every second if they hold their ground and stay inside the rune.
Necromancers don't even come close to that kind of PvE sustainability. This does, however, tie into your aforementioned problem about them being far too healthy of a class... the closest equivalent necromancers have to the stamina/magicka returns of classes like Templars and Nightblades is their Siphon ability, which functions similarly to the restoring aura templar morph, in that it targets a corpse to activate, and can be morphed to restore stamina or magicka. The problem with this ability is that it OVER-heals compared to the magicka or stamina it restores... it can restore upwards of nearly 20k health over its long run time, but the stamina or magicka it restores is an absolutely ***-poor 1k... that is pathetic for PvE content. Necromancers have NO other means of restoring their magicka or stamina save for this one ability, and the passive that restores about 200 stamina/magicka for every death that happens within a certain meter radius of them... i've tried necromancer, and let me tell you: IT DOES NOT COMPENSATE for the absolute sustain train that is the nightblade and templar arsenal.
To recap, I think that a LOT of necromancer's problems can be solved by merely nerfing the amount of healing they receive, while BUFFING the resource restores they receive. Lower the dps on a few certain abilities that make them the absolute be-all end-all of both necromancer builds, while buffing the dps on other abilities that are their equivalents to other classes... (case in point, a templar's puncturing sweep, the very first aedric spear ability, is an absolute BEAST for dps, while a necromancer's scythe is only SLIGHTLY more useful than the base 2h ability cleave before it gets morphed into Brawler, which provides a damage shield, or its other morph).
Necromancer has one of the best sustain in PvE (and PvP) and they're definitely not just good at tanking. They pull the highest or second highest DPS while also providing major vulnerability ensuring them at least 2 spots in every raid group with 3-4 necros per group being most common.
Gotta say... i've tried necromancer... magnecro isn't as bad, not as good as templar or nightblade, bearable to some degree, but stamnecro returns are TERRIBLE... Lets recap on why that is, rather than just saying that it is, and bleating alcast's 'dps tier list' like it's gospel.
Necromancer passive that restores about 200-ish stamina and magicka to you if an enemy dies within 28 meters. This is ONLY useful in situations where there are a lot of adds, and i mean A LOT of them... in boss fights, you don't always have that luxury. The only other option necromancers have to regain their magicka or stamina is the siphon ability... which can only target ONE corpse at a time, and has a long run time of roughly 12 seconds iirc? Over that long run time, it ONLY restores 1k magicka or stamina, depending on the morph. That is absolutely PATHETIC to the nightblade siphoning strikes and templar's rune and aura abilities, which can restore 5k+ magicka and stamina over their run time, and with 5+ corpses, stamplars can restore practically their entire stamina bar from empty INSTANTLY...
Necromancer sustain is SLOW... even with the ability to create their own corpses to siphon from. The only means necromancers have of regaining stamina or magicka after those two pathetic returns on their passive and siphon ability are heavy attacks, minor magicka steal for destruction staff and its passives for magnecros, and 2h passives for stamnecros (which ALL other classes also have access to, and can restore more resources once again than the necro can).
In a group is where necromancers perform the best, and with many enemies surrounding them. On their own, and against singular tough opponents like bosses who do not summon any help from lesser mobs, the PvE necromancer struggles BIG time compared to a nightblade or templar."Proud purveyor of Cyrodiil Pickles."4 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To BohnT2
1.
In a 1x1 battle, stamina is important, because it allows you to break free, block and dodge, and the one who first brings his endurance to 0 will lose. As I wrote earlier, magnecro has the worst control. On this occasion,his opponent may not save stamina, but magnekru should save it for liberation and when it ends, no healing will help him survive the execution phase while standing in stun. I fought STAMNB 3 times in Cyrodiil and lost all 3 times, because my endurance went to 0 and he calmly finished me off. This NB had 30k hp, probably dressed in a pariah (at the same time I had 27k armor, 30k hp,)and was very good in terms of survivability(since my magic light didn't work, I could see it after drinking the potion, but since I don't have control, NB kept all his stamina and just dodged and thereby survived 15 seconds of the potion detection).
So I will repeat once again, CC in pvp is just as valuable as healing or damage.
And about goliath ult. Smart players just run away during the colossus and try to stay away from me for 20 seconds, then they continue to beat me. It's simple.
2.
When you compared Magnecro and magdk, you missed something. Dk has a very good sustain, not inferior to necro thanks to 2 passive skills: Battle Roar-When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.(when dk use leap he will heal ~2.7k and recover ~5.7k stam and magicka). Combustion-When you apply Burning to an enemy, you restore 500 Magicka. When you apply Poisoned to an enemy, you restore 500 Stamina.( both of them magdk and stam\dot dk put poison or burning very often in battle).
In my opinion MagDK has very solid dps in PvP, in straight hands.. I see alot of them who do 1-2kk dps on BG, when i do only 300-600k.
3.
Posted: September 2020Sep 2020-jule 2021 nothing happend with necro , but your opinion about this class has changed to the opposite.It is widely agreed on that magicka necromancer has the worst offensive toolkit of any spec by far.
This goes so far that any set or tool that makes magnecro able to kill enemies can be seen as overperforming.
Be it Dots during scalebreaker, harmony pre nerf, OF and procs since greymoor.
When going through the toolkit it's no suprise why magicka necromancer is as bad as it is.
Riccochet Skulls: deal the same damage as other spammables but have a higher minimum traveltime than skills like force pulse (250ms) or elemental weapon (<200ms due to ranged LA minimum traveltime).
It's secondary effect is also very weak, 20% additional damage on every third cast along with a useless AoE isn't worth it.
Additionally the secondary effect stops working after you've been hit by a guard's eclipse and the only way to fix it is relogging.
Stalking blastbones have no secondary effect for 6 months now and even if you get the whole 50% damage increase you're dealing half the damage you could have dealt if the skill had properly worked. Additionally the skill often doesn't work at all, the bomber will take way too long to start moving, doesn't explode when reaching the target or doesn't deal any damage because the target simply walked away.
Graveyard: after the needed nerf to harmony graveyard went from a 20 second cooldown high burst ability to a 20 seconds wait for a 4k hit. There really isn't a point using this skill anymore.
Skeleton arcanist: Dots in general offer 2 things in eso, first additional damage outside of the ability you've used in that gcd and secondly they allow you to deal damage to dodging targets if your other skills are dodgeable and stays on a target that you can't attack right now be it via LoS or that they've ran out of your range. Well this isn't the case for this walking cotton ball thrower. Enemies walking away won't be damaged by it as it can't catch up, you can't control which target to attack, if there's an enemy with 60k hp right next to you and someone with 500hp 5m away it will never attempt to hit the guy with low Hp even though that's the target you'll want to focus.
Shock Siphon: not only does this skill deal pitiful damage to begin with, no it's also the skill in the game with the highest requirements to ever land a hit. First you have to have a body on the ground, any LoS between you and the body will break it, the target has to be between you and the body. And if you manage to do all that the skill hits for 5k damage over 12 seconds max.
And that's it, there's no other offensive skills a necromancer could use.
Scythe? Deals pitiful damage and has no offensive debuff/ buff.
You also don't have access to an offensive stun as grave grasp is not only extremely unreliable no it also doesn't deal any damage.
When looking at passives that could be a saving grace you'll be disappointed.
Having an "execute" that gives you additional crit chance when slotting skills from a skill line that you don't want to slot because they're dead weight doesn't help at all.
To make matters worse crits in PvP don't deal meaningful damage unless you build for them.
Everyone else will run procs and malacath because it results in basically a 100% crit chance while also buffing procs that couldn't crit to begin with.
Having a passive that increases your dot damage done by 15% sound great doesn't it? Well too bad that the only skills that counts as a dot for necromancer is graveyard and the tether we have already established that neither of those skills are worth using or that 15% extra damage would make them viable.
The only passive that actually increases your damage gives you 1.5k penetration that is a ~2.3% damage increase but it doesn't really matter because your damage is trash to begin with.
There is also no hope for magnecro to compensate those short comings with non class skills:
Using flame clench to have an offensive stun will give you the great experience of knocking enemies out of the range of your bombers resulting in them dealing 0 damage.
Hoping to get an execute next patch with impulse? Nope even against an enemy with 1% hp impulse deals only about 50% additional damage while doing minor damage to begin with.
Also there is no cheap ultimate that you could use on necromancer, the cheapest one you have access to is Dawnbreaker at 125ult cost but it doesn't benefit from light armor penetration or most of your CPs.
The next one is soul assault which is far from good unless you're pushing it to broken levels with a certain set.
Followed by meteor, delayed damage but you have no chance of forcing a hit and you can't really couple it with any damage because you can't rely on your bomber to hit the target in time or to hit the target at all, which will lead to you wasting 3 gcds and 200 ult and the enemy just holding block with no risk of dying.
Magicka Necromancer desperately needs to have itself freed from the slaver that is the idea of having 1 damage, 1 tanking and 1 healing skill lines.
The Class needs an actual execute on a skill that executes on demand and doesn't require you to sacrifice the blood of 13, 90 year old virgins that have performed the chicken dance prior to the ritual while singing "God save the Queen" in Swahili.
Mag necro needs an actual offensive rotation in PvP that consists of more thing than weak spammable - weak spammable - weak spammable -waiting for bomber to finally explode - weak spammable - bomber - weak spammable - waiting for 200+ ult.
All tanking and healer needs can be satisfied via morphs there is no reason to dedicate full skills to either of those archetypes when a single morph can do the job just as well.
I want to say that you have a brain and you are quite smart, but you think exclusively in a narrow way. For this reason, I no longer want to communicate with you and I withdraw myself from this topic.
I have no idea how you manage to run out of stamina on a Magnecro.
You get the equivalent of 400 stamregen from passives mortal coil which is easily enough to sustain for ages.
It's nice that you've dug up my post from September 2020. A post where i explicitly complain about the class skills, something I've done in here too and I have also explained why my opinion has changed over the time.
In the post you've quoted I'm talking about Necromancers offensive toolkit only.
Meanwhile in the same patch magnecro was already one of the top specs when you abused Procs, which I have stated here again.
My complaints about the idea of having 1 Healing, 1 Damage and 1 Tank skill line as well as Skulls, arcanist and shock tether are the same they've been since the release of Necromancers.
However since September 2020 a lot of important stuff has changed which has put Necros in the overperforming tier.
1. CP 2.0 reducing the overall survivability making it easier to get kills with worse offence. At the same time Necromancer stays very tanky ---> direct Magnecro buff offensive wise
2. CP 2.0 reducing the amount of % damage increases which leads to the damage bonus of blastbones to be more significant than before
3. Penetration changes ---> Necromancers can use DBoS effectively something which wasn't possible before
4. 1000 free weapon and spell damage which benefits Necromancers more than most other specs as Mortal coil, blastbones and Spirit Guardian scale exceptionally well with it.
Those changes have allowed necromancers to be independent from Procs, allowing them to kill stuff while being unkillable or way more tanky than other specs which has made them OP.Edited by BohnT2 on July 9, 2021 8:25AM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »90% of the people commenting in this thread about how magcro isn’t OP are probably casual players who don’t really exploit the class to its fullest (and cheesiest) potential. But then again most seasoned pvpers don’t even bother going to the forums to express their opinion.
This just gets into the argument on whether or not the game (or any game) should be balanced on the basis of the top 10%.
What am I supposed to make of the OP? Declares a class is "overperforming," then throws their hands into the air and gives an unrealistic remedy: ban or rework. How exactly is that helping? It doesn't. The devs have consistently interpreted such feedback as nerf the crap out of it and take anything remotely fun or interesting from it, which is why I don't even play this game very much.
Because of my limited play time, I probably now fall into those 90% that you speak of, but from my experience the only two things I find cheesy about a mag necro are harmony graveyards and the annoying ultimate that makes them unkillable (but unthreatening offensively) for 20 seconds or what not. What exactly are these top 10% doing on a slow class with no escape, no execute, a timed placed (and thus avoidable) stun, an expensive ultimate best suited for groups, etc., that make a mag necro something that requires a ban/rework? Cherry picking a lot of stuff from outside the class kit and taking advantage of how ridiculously powerful the harmony trait is? How is the solution to the top 10% abusing mag necros to tear the guts out of it - which will rightly annoy the vast majority of the customer base that doesn't even smell PvP? I find 90% PvPers in the first place are only offensively dangerous on a mag necro when pressing their synergy button in an organized group. If my experience is not reflective of what happens in the majority of Cyrodiil because I don't play very much (precisely because everything has been so watered down due to complaints of "overperforming"), please do tell me.
I would not disagree that stamina necromancers are and have been top tier in PvP ever since they were introduced to the game. But before we go around swinging the nerfbat and implement sweeping blanket changes that will neuter all necromancers in every aspect of ESO, maybe it would be better to try and understand why this is. I do not think the fact that its cousin, Stamina Warden, which also has been top tier since the day it was introduced, is a coincidence.Edited by Joy_Division on July 8, 2021 2:01PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.15 -
ajkb78✭✭✭✭✭Artemis_X_ wrote: »Artemis_X_ wrote: »Thats not the impression esologs gives.
It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic
It should yep.
I'm sorry if reading the sentence "fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die" isn't enough for you to understand that this is PvP related.
There is no such thing as a PvP only thread. Unless the change is done by battle spirit (or whatever), what changes you propose effects PvE as well. Or do you think requesting “a complete rework of the class” somehow does not affect pve.
Every explanation in the initial post is focused on PvP, it's self explanatory that in a game with no separation between PvP and PvE changes will affect both sides although not in the same way.
Yes, so if someone posts a concern related to how your changes effect pve, they cannot be dismissed by stating this thread is only about how necromancers perform in pvp.
No one has posted any concerns about those changes tho.
There was only an attempt to dismiss this post by referring to useage stats in PvE from Esologs.
Which is a way of measuring the effectiveness of attacks in PvE.
If an attack is OVER performing in PvP but UNDER (or at least evenly) performing in PvE, the solution is not to nerf PvE. This is your topic. Think of a way to modify Necro's attacks that does not further hurt PvE effectiveness.
Magnecromancer is currently the most used spec in PvE (also due to major vulnerability) and whatever skill you're talking about it can't be one of the one I named.
Blastbones is always the top damage skill by far just check some Eso log parses.
One example being the Kyne's Aegis Parses of the Top team (Aurbis Aspect)
If you're telling me a spec, that fills 1/3rd of the slots of a whole trial group and 2/3rd of the damage dealers, is bad at PvE the issue is on your side.
Also a full rework of the class can easily support the class staying viable in PvE.
Magcro is definitely not the hardest hitting spec in pve. Yes, you'll always need 3 in a trial group for major vulnerability uptime, but sorc, warden and NB all have better raw damage at the moment. My core team is only running 2 magcro DDs so as to have more sorcs / blades, the third necro is a healer, with DK and Templar tanks.
It would be nice if BB would actually just work most of the time. If that means having it run in a mostly straight line in front of the caster, hitting the closest thing in a rectangular hitbox in front of the caster at the moment the cast time completes that wouldn't be a deal-breaker, it's basically how shalks works on a warden. Come to think of it, we could just make it a reskin of shslks so it actually works reliably. That would be nice.
I don't run a necro in PvP but recently I've heard plenty of whining that the following are op and need nerfing:
Stamcros
Stamdens
Magblade bombers
Stamblades
Werewolves
Stamsorcs
Stamplars
StamDKs (solely because of take flight)
Hell that's over half the classes.
Not everything can be OP. It seems much more likely there's just one class you're not very good against (for me it's stamplars) so rather than thinking "oh I'm not very good against them, I should practice or tweak my build" you just assume they're OP.
I'm not saying every class is exactly as powerful as each other, but I think they're all in a rather narrower band than all the complaining suggests. (Except MagDK, they could use some love 😂)
6 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »90% of the people commenting in this thread about how magcro isn’t OP are probably casual players who don’t really exploit the class to its fullest (and cheesiest) potential. But then again most seasoned pvpers don’t even bother going to the forums to express their opinion.
This just gets into the argument on whether or not the game (or any game) should be balanced on the basis of the top 10%.
What am I supposed to make of the OP? Declares a class is "overperforming," then throws their hands into the air and gives an unrealistic remedy: ban or rework. How exactly is that helping? It doesn't. The devs have consistently interpreted such feedback as nerf the crap out of it and take anything remotely fun or interesting from it, which is why I don't even play this game very much.
Because of my limited play time, I probably now fall into those 90% that you speak of, but from my experience the only two things I find cheesy about a mag necro are harmony graveyards and the annoying ultimate that makes them unkillable (but unthreatening offensively) for 20 seconds or what not. What exactly are these top 10% doing on a slow class with no escape, no execute, a timed placed (and thus avoidable) stun, an expensive ultimate best suited for groups, etc., that make a mag necro something that requires a ban/rework? Cherry picking a lot of stuff from outside the class kit and taking advantage of how ridiculously powerful the harmony trait is? How is the solution to the top 10% abusing mag necros to tear the guts out of it - which will rightly annoy the vast majority of the customer base that doesn't even smell PvP? I find 90% PvPers in the first place are only offensively dangerous on a mag necro when pressing their synergy button in an organized group. If my experience is not reflective of what happens in the majority of Cyrodiil because I don't play very much (precisely because everything has been so watered down due to complaints of "overperforming"), please do tell me.
In general I respect your arguments on the forums because they're well thought out and often underlined by facts.
All my experience and the people I play with and talk about PvP balance play on Pc EU or are heavily influenced by the Meta on Pc EU.
Harmony Magnecro hasn't been seen too often outside of people zerging with magnecro or farming as an Emp. It's not something that's commonly seen in OW and even with the damage numbers it hasn't been the most viable thing to run on magnecro in ages.
Also I'm like to stress that I've explained multiple times what makes Necro overpowered and at the same time very boring:
The combination of overperforming skills with a high focus on survivability and just enough damage to kill people now, after the changes explained in the OP, and the plethora of useless trash skills that no one would ever consider using.
I genuinely haven't met a single person who has said "Magnecro is such a well designed class and it's so much fun playing it".
In general the opinion is quite the opposite with people hating how badly designed the class is, how many skills just aren't useable at all and how it's unnecessarily tanky and annoying for either side.
I have stressed this in other posts about Magnecro, one of which has been quoted in this post, where I explain that it is impossible to build a well designed class that has 1 damage, 1 tank and 1 healing skill tree.
It is however possible to satisfy PvE, PvP and healing and tanking needs when you widely increase the amount of damage morphs and create defensive/healing morphs.
One example being Cauterize and flames of oblivion.
However as long as Necromancer at their core are build around this triumvirate of bad class design it will continue to be a boring annoyance that has overtuned defences due to having overperforming skills and 20 class morphs to choose from as well as having a one dimensional offence that's reliant on overperforming skills to be useable.
Dependent on the current surroundings this means Necromancer is either a brickwall that can't do enough offensive wise to get kills (what we've seen from Elsweyr launch until procs became more relevant in Greymoor) or it becomes a full Main battle tank that's facing ancient infantry which can either run away (draw) or die.
This leaves the class with two options one being a complete rework that gives the class a proper gameplay design that's not reliant on overperforming skills and necro becomes an actual class. Or you balance the overperforming skills and therefore remove the class from the game.
I know which one of those I'd prefer but I wouldn't be sad if I would never see myself or any other person play a Necro in PvP, because everything is better than facing overperforming specs where the result of a mirror matchup is a draw.
1 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'll just post these here after people have repeatedly accused me of not playing Necromancer.
1 -
regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭ThePianist wrote: »How about we add skill line restrictions for certain classes?
Keep the necro as is right now but have restrictions on them. Their skills are already a criminal act (like vamp and werewolf). BUT necromancers cannot use Fighters guild, Mages Guild and they certainly cannot use Psijic skills.
Absolutely not. Why make them unable to utilize what every other class can utilize. And if they did that they would need a buff which would make them overperform even further.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »90% of the people commenting in this thread about how magcro isn’t OP are probably casual players who don’t really exploit the class to its fullest (and cheesiest) potential. But then again most seasoned pvpers don’t even bother going to the forums to express their opinion.
This just gets into the argument on whether or not the game (or any game) should be balanced on the basis of the top 10%.
What am I supposed to make of the OP? Declares a class is "overperforming," then throws their hands into the air and gives an unrealistic remedy: ban or rework. How exactly is that helping? It doesn't. The devs have consistently interpreted such feedback as nerf the crap out of it and take anything remotely fun or interesting from it, which is why I don't even play this game very much.
Because of my limited play time, I probably now fall into those 90% that you speak of, but from my experience the only two things I find cheesy about a mag necro are harmony graveyards and the annoying ultimate that makes them unkillable (but unthreatening offensively) for 20 seconds or what not. What exactly are these top 10% doing on a slow class with no escape, no execute, a timed placed (and thus avoidable) stun, an expensive ultimate best suited for groups, etc., that make a mag necro something that requires a ban/rework? Cherry picking a lot of stuff from outside the class kit and taking advantage of how ridiculously powerful the harmony trait is? How is the solution to the top 10% abusing mag necros to tear the guts out of it - which will rightly annoy the vast majority of the customer base that doesn't even smell PvP? I find 90% PvPers in the first place are only offensively dangerous on a mag necro when pressing their synergy button in an organized group. If my experience is not reflective of what happens in the majority of Cyrodiil because I don't play very much (precisely because everything has been so watered down due to complaints of "overperforming"), please do tell me.
In general I respect your arguments on the forums because they're well thought out and often underlined by facts.
All my experience and the people I play with and talk about PvP balance play on Pc EU or are heavily influenced by the Meta on Pc EU.
Harmony Magnecro hasn't been seen too often outside of people zerging with magnecro or farming as an Emp. It's not something that's commonly seen in OW and even with the damage numbers it hasn't been the most viable thing to run on magnecro in ages.
Also I'm like to stress that I've explained multiple times what makes Necro overpowered and at the same time very boring:
The combination of overperforming skills with a high focus on survivability and just enough damage to kill people now, after the changes explained in the OP, and the plethora of useless trash skills that no one would ever consider using.
I genuinely haven't met a single person who has said "Magnecro is such a well designed class and it's so much fun playing it".
In general the opinion is quite the opposite with people hating how badly designed the class is, how many skills just aren't useable at all and how it's unnecessarily tanky and annoying for either side.
I have stressed this in other posts about Magnecro, one of which has been quoted in this post, where I explain that it is impossible to build a well designed class that has 1 damage, 1 tank and 1 healing skill tree.
It is however possible to satisfy PvE, PvP and healing and tanking needs when you widely increase the amount of damage morphs and create defensive/healing morphs.
One example being Cauterize and flames of oblivion.
However as long as Necromancer at their core are build around this triumvirate of bad class design it will continue to be a boring annoyance that has overtuned defences due to having overperforming skills and 20 class morphs to choose from as well as having a one dimensional offence that's reliant on overperforming skills to be useable.
Dependent on the current surroundings this means Necromancer is either a brickwall that can't do enough offensive wise to get kills (what we've seen from Elsweyr launch until procs became more relevant in Greymoor) or it becomes a full Main battle tank that's facing ancient infantry which can either run away (draw) or die.
This leaves the class with two options one being a complete rework that gives the class a proper gameplay design that's not reliant on overperforming skills and necro becomes an actual class. Or you balance the overperforming skills and therefore remove the class from the game.
I know which one of those I'd prefer but I wouldn't be sad if I would never see myself or any other person play a Necro in PvP, because everything is better than facing overperforming specs where the result of a mirror matchup is a draw.
If it's any consolation, I probably have agreed with about 95% of the stuff you have posted over the years.
Including much of the original post here. But even if I agree with your overall assessment, what can be done? ZOS had decided years ago that skills need to serve specific functions, classes had to be able to perform every role, standardization was the key to "balance" the game, and the one DPS, one Tank, one Heal tree - even though it was completely at odds with how the original classes and game was designed around - conformed to those visions and thus why they stuck with it. Did it again even though the Warden experiment was quite dubious: Stamina Wardens were perpetually top tier in PvP, while magicka wardens were these clumsy thing with gimmicks (no dodge birds, burst shalk stuns, Arctic Blast, giving group members health, various proc set synergies, etc.) that even if they were necessary and good in groups, never felt as fluid and coherent as an actual class with vision. Count me as one of the many people who do not find these classes fun to play (especially the magicka version, which constantly had me looking outside the class). That ZOS has to make sets to even try to make them as competitive "Ice mages" should be enough to say this new approach to designing classes is quite flawed.
But Necros (and Wardens) are not getting removed or reworked. If ZOS were to water down the skills you find problematic (Coil, Mender, Blastbones, perhaps add their purge to that list), why would anyone with a competitive bone in their body bother playing one (aside from groups taking advantage of ridiculous Graverobber synergies)? My templar, the "heal class" had at Launch: Jabs, Javelin, Sunfire, Eclipse, Blazing Spear, Blazing Shield, Toppling Charge, a reliable passive in Burning Light, Dark Flare, and Purifying Light as reliable sources of dealing enough damage easily enough to play offensively even though the class was awkward and originally not designed to do that. Regardless of ZOS's nerfs, dubious balance decisions, and other changes that killed my desire to play this game, there were enough offensive skills that I did not feel compelled to make one of those "stall" tanks that come so easily with Necros and Wardens, both of whom were given multiple specially designed skills that let them do that (whereas the only such skill Templars had, Blinding Light, was quickly taken away). How exactly is the magicka necromancer supposed to compete with three (!) reliable damage skills that actually target specific players (Scythe, Skull, Blastbones), two of which are meh? They can't. So that's why players who have any sort of ego or dislike dying grab their trusty two-handed weapon for decent skills, or their harmony jewelry, and stall out fights with their specifically designed tank skills that are way better than the watered down abilities masquerading as such on the original classes.
The bed is made, the horse is out of the barn, the milk has already been spilled. You and I can complain about it. People whose opinion I respect can keep consistently putting stam warden and stam necro is "S" tier every single patch and chapter. But ZOS can't even be bothered to hire a PvP developer; instead they pretend the combat lead - who has so many things on their plate that the problematic (and confusing) magicka morph of Blastbones still has not gotten an update - has their eyes on PvP and we're supposed to believe ZOS's pronouncements that they are still committed to improving the PvP experience. Even if ZOS could rework Necros, they are hardly in a position to do so. What you typed up in the OP is symptomatic of what has very deep roots.
I suppose at the end of the day, I too am throwing up my hands. Maybe we don't see things that differently after all.Edited by Joy_Division on July 8, 2021 6:22PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭“All my experience and the people I play with and talk about PvP balance play on Pc EU or are heavily influenced by the Meta on Pc EU.”
Then play on PC-NA or Console 😂😁 Get away from those high health tanky EU builds 😆1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Me whenever I see the buzzword "overperforming" on the forums:
And I emphatically agree with @Joy_Division that balance decisions should not be made in order to appease the top 1%, 5%, 10% of the sweatiest PvP players. This entire thread strikes me as a misguided crusade to change the class in order to suit one player's vision of the class, a vision that is decidedly NOT shared by many other players.
Comparisons to other classes without even considering the strongest elements of those classes strikes me as wildly incomplete analysis at best and disingenuous/misleading propagandizing at worst, depending upon the intention of those making them. For example, comparing magRomancer to magDK or magWarden without even considering signature abilities such as Fossilize or Shimmering Shield gives the strong impression of biased axe-grinding rather than being a serious attempt to evaluate the respective classes' strengths.
We can solve a great many class balance problems with targeted buffs to the classes that need them (such as magDK). When comparing a weak ability such as Cauterize to a strong ability like Mender I am seeing a situation where Cauterize should be improved rather than a situation where Mender should be scoured from the face of the game. The same goes for sustain via improvements to Combustion (a passive that OP did not even mention when discussing magDK sustain...) and so forth. Balance should never be achieved via a race-to-the-bottom, where all classes are brought down to the level of the worst class, but rather through improving unloved classes to make them powerful and enjoyable to play again.11 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »But even if I agree with your overall assessment, what can be done?
If it wasn't clear from my posts I vote for increasing the "difficulty" of the class without diminishing its ceiling too much, maybe just a touch. Maybe through more "kiss-curses" or whatever that don't affect PvE. To me this is a solid identity for the class. I think it was the idea with the class, maybe, but Grave Grasp and Colossus being hard to land (situationally, of course I've seen things like that clip Bohn shared play out many times), Graverobber synergy getting lost in the stack to support synergies (it once often was, not sure about now), Tether having a limited range, Resistant Flesh's Minor Defile (which is nullified by Curative Curse and which can feed Expunge and Modify), the lack of in-class access to the Major Damage/Crit buffs - these "curses" perhaps just aren't cutting it to limit the power / ease-of-use of Necro. Maybe some things like:
Undead Confederate: While you have a Blastbones, Skeletal Mage, or Spirit Mender active, your Magicka and Stamina Recovery is increased by 200, and you gain Minor Brittle
Curative Curse: While you have a negative effect on you, your healing done is increased by 8%. When you place a negative effect on an enemy, your healing taken is reduced by 8% for X seconds.
Those aren't especially well thought-out ideas, but you catch my drift. How about giving Blastbones a chance to rebel against and target its caster?
Edited by Urzigurumash on July 8, 2021 11:32PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »90% of the people commenting in this thread about how magcro isn’t OP are probably casual players who don’t really exploit the class to its fullest (and cheesiest) potential. But then again most seasoned pvpers don’t even bother going to the forums to express their opinion.
This just gets into the argument on whether or not the game (or any game) should be balanced on the basis of the top 10%.
What am I supposed to make of the OP? Declares a class is "overperforming," then throws their hands into the air and gives an unrealistic remedy: ban or rework. How exactly is that helping? It doesn't. The devs have consistently interpreted such feedback as nerf the crap out of it and take anything remotely fun or interesting from it, which is why I don't even play this game very much.
Because of my limited play time, I probably now fall into those 90% that you speak of, but from my experience the only two things I find cheesy about a mag necro are harmony graveyards and the annoying ultimate that makes them unkillable (but unthreatening offensively) for 20 seconds or what not. What exactly are these top 10% doing on a slow class with no escape, no execute, a timed placed (and thus avoidable) stun, an expensive ultimate best suited for groups, etc., that make a mag necro something that requires a ban/rework? Cherry picking a lot of stuff from outside the class kit and taking advantage of how ridiculously powerful the harmony trait is? How is the solution to the top 10% abusing mag necros to tear the guts out of it - which will rightly annoy the vast majority of the customer base that doesn't even smell PvP? I find 90% PvPers in the first place are only offensively dangerous on a mag necro when pressing their synergy button in an organized group. If my experience is not reflective of what happens in the majority of Cyrodiil because I don't play very much (precisely because everything has been so watered down due to complaints of "overperforming"), please do tell me.
In general I respect your arguments on the forums because they're well thought out and often underlined by facts.
All my experience and the people I play with and talk about PvP balance play on Pc EU or are heavily influenced by the Meta on Pc EU.
Harmony Magnecro hasn't been seen too often outside of people zerging with magnecro or farming as an Emp. It's not something that's commonly seen in OW and even with the damage numbers it hasn't been the most viable thing to run on magnecro in ages.
Also I'm like to stress that I've explained multiple times what makes Necro overpowered and at the same time very boring:
The combination of overperforming skills with a high focus on survivability and just enough damage to kill people now, after the changes explained in the OP, and the plethora of useless trash skills that no one would ever consider using.
I genuinely haven't met a single person who has said "Magnecro is such a well designed class and it's so much fun playing it".
In general the opinion is quite the opposite with people hating how badly designed the class is, how many skills just aren't useable at all and how it's unnecessarily tanky and annoying for either side.
I have stressed this in other posts about Magnecro, one of which has been quoted in this post, where I explain that it is impossible to build a well designed class that has 1 damage, 1 tank and 1 healing skill tree.
It is however possible to satisfy PvE, PvP and healing and tanking needs when you widely increase the amount of damage morphs and create defensive/healing morphs.
One example being Cauterize and flames of oblivion.
However as long as Necromancer at their core are build around this triumvirate of bad class design it will continue to be a boring annoyance that has overtuned defences due to having overperforming skills and 20 class morphs to choose from as well as having a one dimensional offence that's reliant on overperforming skills to be useable.
Dependent on the current surroundings this means Necromancer is either a brickwall that can't do enough offensive wise to get kills (what we've seen from Elsweyr launch until procs became more relevant in Greymoor) or it becomes a full Main battle tank that's facing ancient infantry which can either run away (draw) or die.
This leaves the class with two options one being a complete rework that gives the class a proper gameplay design that's not reliant on overperforming skills and necro becomes an actual class. Or you balance the overperforming skills and therefore remove the class from the game.
I know which one of those I'd prefer but I wouldn't be sad if I would never see myself or any other person play a Necro in PvP, because everything is better than facing overperforming specs where the result of a mirror matchup is a draw.
If it's any consolation, I probably have agreed with about 95% of the stuff you have posted over the years.
Including much of the original post here. But even if I agree with your overall assessment, what can be done? ZOS had decided years ago that skills need to serve specific functions, classes had to be able to perform every role, standardization was the key to "balance" the game, and the one DPS, one Tank, one Heal tree - even though it was completely at odds with how the original classes and game was designed around - conformed to those visions and thus why they stuck with it. Did it again even though the Warden experiment was quite dubious: Stamina Wardens were perpetually top tier in PvP, while magicka wardens were these clumsy thing with gimmicks (no dodge birds, burst shalk stuns, Arctic Blast, giving group members health, various proc set synergies, etc.) that even if they were necessary and good in groups, never felt as fluid and coherent as an actual class with vision. Count me as one of the many people who do not find these classes fun to play (especially the magicka version, which constantly had me looking outside the class). That ZOS has to make sets to even try to make them as competitive "Ice mages" should be enough to say this new approach to designing classes is quite flawed.
But Necros (and Wardens) are not getting removed or reworked. If ZOS were to water down the skills you find problematic (Coil, Mender, Blastbones, perhaps add their purge to that list), why would anyone with a competitive bone in their body bother playing one (aside from groups taking advantage of ridiculous Graverobber synergies)? My templar, the "heal class" had at Launch: Jabs, Javelin, Sunfire, Eclipse, Blazing Spear, Blazing Shield, Toppling Charge, a reliable passive in Burning Light, Dark Flare, and Purifying Light as reliable sources of dealing enough damage easily enough to play offensively even though the class was awkward and originally not designed to do that. Regardless of ZOS's nerfs, dubious balance decisions, and other changes that killed my desire to play this game, there were enough offensive skills that I did not feel compelled to make one of those "stall" tanks that come so easily with Necros and Wardens, both of whom were given multiple specially designed skills that let them do that (whereas the only such skill Templars had, Blinding Light, was quickly taken away). How exactly is the magicka necromancer supposed to compete with three (!) reliable damage skills that actually target specific players (Scythe, Skull, Blastbones), two of which are meh? They can't. So that's why players who have any sort of ego or dislike dying grab their trusty two-handed weapon for decent skills, or their harmony jewelry, and stall out fights with their specifically designed tank skills that are way better than the watered down abilities masquerading as such on the original classes.
The bed is made, the horse is out of the barn, the milk has already been spilled. You and I can complain about it. People whose opinion I respect can keep consistently putting stam warden and stam necro is "S" tier every single patch and chapter. But ZOS can't even be bothered to hire a PvP developer; instead they pretend the combat lead - who has so many things on their plate that the problematic (and confusing) magicka morph of Blastbones still has not gotten an update - has their eyes on PvP and we're supposed to believe ZOS's pronouncements that they are still committed to improving the PvP experience. Even if ZOS could rework Necros, they are hardly in a position to do so. What you typed up in the OP is symptomatic of what has very deep roots.
I suppose at the end of the day, I too am throwing up my hands. Maybe we don't see things that differently after all.
I highly doubt that we can do anything to change this situation in or the mountain range of problems ,that has piled up due to issues that we could probably discuss hours about, and would lead to both our icons going behind bars or resetting to the base one, in an appropriate time.
From your time as a class rep you're familiar with the Devs' stance on player giving direct advice how to handle or balance stuff.
Proc set scaling was asked for back when viper, tremorscale plagued the game but we didn't see it until this patch in a form that had to differ from the feedback players had given.
This trend has continued throughout the game's lifecycle on so many occasions, be it Poop fist (stone giant), the Vampire rework, casttimes on ultimates, ...
And for this reason I don't really bother anymore giving detailed explanations how things could be improved for everyone but rather limit myself to set the foundation for a discussion or point out topics and issues that maybe 2-3 years from now on will be looked at by the understaffed combat team.
Something I have completely given up on is PvP performance, since the introduction of casttimes, the backend rework for many mechanics (block, Sprint, CC break) and the shift of many calculations to the server, I have lost any fate or hope I had for PvP to play decently again. Those changes were so fundamentally against performance and enjoyable gameplay in PvP that they made the game worse than overperforming classes could ever do.1 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »We can solve a great many class balance problems with targeted buffs to the classes that need them (such as magDK). When comparing a weak ability such as Cauterize to a strong ability like Mender I am seeing a situation where Cauterize should be improved rather than a situation where Mender should be scoured from the face of the game. The same goes for sustain via improvements to Combustion (a passive that OP did not even mention when discussing magDK sustain...) and so forth. Balance should never be achieved via a race-to-the-bottom, where all classes are brought down to the level of the worst class, but rather through improving unloved classes to make them powerful and enjoyable to play again.
This causes the game to go down in a spiral of powercreep.
Necromancer is sitting in a spot that brings back a full blown tank meta and it is impossible to balance 10 other specs in order to match the performance of necromancer which in the end would result in the game becoming a lot worse as the current situation with necromancers (magnecro in particular) is that a mirror matchup ends in a draw.
About me not mentioning combustion:
It's a magicka sustain passive only now that syvarra's is finally dead and the difference in skill cost from necro and DK is so big that I don't even wanted to bother talking about it.
On Necro you have 1-2 skills not costing anything (hexproof and coil) while your main heal and nuke (spirit guardian and blastbones) are exceptionally cheap.
Magdks can't skip so many gcds in order to break even with the resource drain a magnecro has.
2 -
ThePianist✭✭✭[snip] The defense has no clue why the herd are calling for nerfs. If I told you to make a PvP tier list for every class, you would have no clue where to put them, and that is where you fail to raise doubt.
I’ll say it again, pvp content creators and streamers have put dozens of tier lists since Flames of ambition and Blackwood. Their opinion and data on why the necro class is over performing, is more rational. You may disagree with that opinion and rationalization but then again, there’s a lot of people that agree with their opinion than yours.
The herd has spoken, not just in this forum but also outside of it, that Necro must be nerfed for balancing.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 9, 2021 11:45AM2 -
Sneakers✭✭✭Have to be said that BohnT is a top tier magnecro that now plays a mag templar 100%, he doesn't play his necro anymore.
He knows Magcro well and did well 1v1 on it through several patches when it was clearly underperforming.
With that said I don't understand this thread.
1) Necros only advantage in mitigation comes from the 10% from ONE morph of spirit mender and the deaded pain 3%, so in total 13%.
Not all necro builds can afford to run that morph since it heals (depending on build) only for 1000-1400 / 2s which is VERY low.
2) Stamina necros also have to give up gap closer and "anytime stuns" to load up on A) vigor B ) mortal coil C) healing pet
If you are not a 2h Necro that is all healing you got, you have no easy access to a BIG burst heal
3) Having much higher damage in this patch benefits Necro I agree on that, but it also benefits NBs, templars and stam sorcs
4) Necro get 300 stamina sustain from mortal coil + having a pet up (mortail coil gives 1300 stamina over 12s = ~100 + 200 = 300)
Sorcerer (both stam and magicka) also get a lot of "free" stamina sustain and templars as well.
5) Many magicka builds (if we look at magicka necro now) can dodge roll multiple times in a row with some well-fitted/and or magicka shield CPs. My magicka sorc has 1800 roll dodge cost on 23500 stamina with 1600 stamina recovery (using magicka pots)
6) In cyro, all necro pets become unreliable, especially BB which at a certain point stops functioning since the server lags so much the pet dies before it can engage a target
7) Magicka necros only CC is dawn breaker, nothing else is reliable or worth using over another essential skill
8) All the crying about mortal coil has to stop it is nowhere near Vigor in healing, 7200 wep damage vigor heals for 29-30k on my stamina necro over 4 seconds. Mortail coil heals 31k over 12 seconds, that is 1/3 (33%) of vigor healing. That is 2500 healing / s and then cut by 55% (we can say half) by battle spirit = 1250 healing /s. With 7200 wep damage, nobody runs around with that all the time. My necro usually gets 295 / 0.5s from mortal coil = 600 heal / s, nothing mayor.
9) Necros weakest point is its stamina sustain, I struggle to reach 2280 sustain on my stamina necro, my stamina sorc ran around with 3600 without even trying.
All classes can use balorgh + dawnbreaker/other instant high dmg ulti and gain high pens to time their burst on, nothing unique for necro.
Maybe this is from a duels PoV were kiting is not a factor and you cannot reset a fight (as BohnT said if mag necro pops 500 ulti goliath and forces the other in a fight were they are unkillable for 20s with +12000 pen and 500 spell dmg for 12s from balorgh)
Stamden, Stam NB, Stam DK, Stamplar magplar all have builds that are rediculous in this current high dmg META. Stamden in my book still the strongest due to access to super (overloaded) condensed skills that give them litterally every single utility skill and buff while not having to give up on gap closer, exec, burst heal, speed etc.
Stamden has theoretically a lower burst potential then a necro YES but you don't need maxed burst you only need high enough to kill 85% - the rest you draw cus they cannot kill you either. Stamden is perfect for this.Edited by Sneakers on July 9, 2021 10:01AM4 -
Knockmaker✭✭✭✭I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.4
-
clearly✭✭✭Have to be said that BohnT is a top tier magnecro that now plays a mag templar 100%, he doesn't play his necro anymore.
He knows Magcro well and did well 1v1 on it through several patches when it was clearly underperforming.
With that said I don't understand this thread.
1) Necros only advantage in mitigation comes from the 10% from ONE morph of spirit mender and the deaded pain 3%, so in total 13%.
Not all necro builds can afford to run that morph since it heals (depending on build) only for 1000-1400 / 2s which is VERY low.
2) Stamina necros also have to give up gap closer and "anytime stuns" to load up on A) vigor B ) mortal coil C) healing pet
If you are not a 2h Necro that is all healing you got, you have no easy access to a BIG burst heal
3) Having much higher damage in this patch benefits Necro I agree on that, but it also benefits NBs, templars and stam sorcs
4) Necro get 300 stamina sustain from mortal coil + having a pet up (mortail coil gives 1300 stamina over 12s = ~100 + 200 = 300)
Sorcerer (both stam and magicka) also get a lot of "free" stamina sustain and templars as well.
5) Many magicka builds (if we look at magicka necro now) can dodge roll multiple times in a row with some well-fitted/and or magicka shield CPs. My magicka sorc has 1800 roll dodge cost on 23500 stamina with 1600 stamina recovery (using magicka pots)
6) In cyro, all necro pets become unreliable, especially BB which at a certain point stops functioning since the server lags so much the pet dies before it can engage a target
7) Magicka necros only CC is dawn breaker, nothing else is reliable or worth using over another essential skill
8) All the crying about mortal coil has to stop it is nowhere near Vigor in healing, 7200 wep damage vigor heals for 29-30k on my stamina necro over 4 seconds. Mortail coil heals 31k over 12 seconds, that is 1/3 (33%) of vigor healing. That is 2500 healing / s and then cut by 55% (we can say half) by battle spirit = 1250 healing /s. With 7200 wep damage, nobody runs around with that all the time. My necro usually gets 295 / 0.5s from mortal coil = 600 heal / s, nothing mayor.
9) Necros weakest point is its stamina sustain, I struggle to reach 2280 sustain on my stamina necro, my stamina sorc ran around with 3600 without even trying.
All classes can use balorgh + dawnbreaker/other instant high dmg ulti and gain high pens to time their burst on, nothing unique for necro.
Maybe this is from a duels PoV were kiting is not a factor and you cannot reset a fight (as BohnT said if mag necro pops 500 ulti goliath and forces the other in a fight were they are unkillable for 20s with +12000 pen and 500 spell dmg for 12s from balorgh)
Stamden, Stam NB, Stam DK, Stamplar magplar all have builds that are rediculous in this current high dmg META. Stamden in my book still the strongest due to access to super (overloaded) condensed skills that give them litterally every single utility skill and buff while not having to give up on gap closer, exec, burst heal, speed etc.
Stamden has theoretically a lower burst potential then a necro YES but you don't need maxed burst you only need high enough to kill 85% - the rest you draw cus they cannot kill you either. Stamden is perfect for this.
> Necros only advantage in mitigation comes from the 10% from ONE morph of spirit mender and the deaded pain 3%, so in total 13%.
> Not all necro builds can afford to run that morph since it heals (depending on build) only for 1000-1400 / 2s which is VERY low.
it heals for that much on stamina necro.
was on a full proc magcro without any stat sets and 3 recovery glyphs just for the memes. now with extra 1k spell damage and stat sets you should be able to get over 2k average without problems, which is a lot better than 90% of the heals over time that other classes have access to. (e.g dark cloak is at best 1k hps, for double the cost and half the duration. and half the mitigation, and its a named buff)
> 2) Stamina necros also have to give up gap closer and "anytime stuns" to load up on A) vigor B ) mortal coil C) healing pet
If you are not a 2h Necro that is all healing you got, you have no easy access to a BIG burst heal
stamcro doesnt need a guaranteed cc nor a gap closer. and if youre not running 2h on stamcro, just delete the character already.
> 3) Having much higher damage in this patch benefits Necro I agree on that, but it also benefits NBs, templars and stam sorcs
every class benefits from higher stats, some more than others, as explained in the op, which also explains that necro benefits a lot more from it thanks to its defensive kit.
> 4) Necro get 300 stamina sustain from mortal coil + having a pet up (mortail coil gives 1300 stamina over 12s = ~100 + 200 = 300)
Sorcerer (both stam and magicka) also get a lot of "free" stamina sustain and templars as well.
coil is 100 stam/s which is 200 regen, so stamcro gets 400 regen (which is actually more since the 200 from the pet scales with modifier, unlike other classes extra sustain). necro skills are also extremely cheap, if not free. blastbones costs like 1k mag/stam. and both templar and sorc have worse offensive and defensive options than necro.
> 5) Many magicka builds (if we look at magicka necro now) can dodge roll multiple times in a row with some well-fitted/and or magicka shield CPs. My magicka sorc has 1800 roll dodge cost on 23500 stamina with 1600 stamina recovery (using magicka pots)
ok? so you're agreeing that stam sustain is anything but hard?
> 6) In cyro, all necro pets become unreliable, especially BB which at a certain point stops functioning since the server lags so much the pet dies before it can engage a target
nothing is reliable in cyro lag. this isnt a necro exclusive
> 7) Magicka necros only CC is dawn breaker, nothing else is reliable or worth using over another essential skill
if youre smallscaling or something similar, you dont need more. you can slot clench for 1v1 and totem for 1vX (one of the best defensive cc in the game)
8) All the crying about mortal coil has to stop it is nowhere near Vigor in healing, 7200 wep damage vigor heals for 29-30k on my stamina necro over 4 seconds. Mortail coil heals 31k over 12 seconds, that is 1/3 (33%) of vigor healing. That is 2500 healing / s and then cut by 55% (we can say half) by battle spirit = 1250 healing /s. With 7200 wep damage, nobody runs around with that all the time. My necro usually gets 295 / 0.5s from mortal coil = 600 heal / s, nothing mayor.
yeah just forget that its free, returns stam and gives 3% healing done. oh and it double ticks. and forget about these too:
jokes aside, yes it has a fairly similar tooltip to other heal over times, but other classes, unlike necro, can not afford to run full stats builds and thus get much less healing from their skills.
> All classes can use balorgh + dawnbreaker/other instant high dmg ulti and gain high pens to time their burst on, nothing unique for necro.
other classes have a single dawnbreaker coming with balorgh. necro has 2
> Stamden has theoretically a lower burst potential then a necro YES but you don't need maxed burst you only need high enough to kill 85% - the rest you draw cus they cannot kill you either. Stamden is perfect for this.
you realise that this is literally necro in a nutshell and the entire point of the post?4 -
clearly✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?0 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I disagree with the premise of this thread. It also seems to be predicated on some false information.
Things I have seen claimed in this thread:
-Claim: "Necromancers have the most powerful execute."
Reality: Necromancers do not have an execute.
-Claim: "Necromancers can siphon from corpses without limit."
Reality: Necromancers can only siphon from one corpse at a time (2, if they have both siphon abilities on their bars)
-Claim: "PVP against a Necro has 2 possible outcomes; 1. a draw 2. the Necro wins"
Reality: Necromancers are plenty killable in PVP.
Necromancer skills have a very clunky rotation, that makes them very inconsistent to use in PVP. A smoother rotation means going away from class skills and investing in weapon / guild skills. As has been stated, their CC, ult, dots, and burst damage ability, all have various drawbacks that make them inconsistent in PVP usage. They have no gap closer, no execute, and lack many of the abilities that other classes have access to. The extra mitigation and the Major Vulnerability that Necros have are counters to balance the things they lack, NOT needles on a haystack that is breaking the camel's back of balance.
Class identity is already absent enough as it is. We do not need even more removal of unique traits that give each class any remaining semblance of individuality.7
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O5bgIqC88os
[/url]