Necromancers are overperforming

ThePianist · July 2021

You don’t balance a class or say a class is broken based on stats and skills, it is based on live performance.

You guys can go to YT and look up dozens of pvp class tier lists since Blackwood came out. Stamcro is either S-tier or A tier, and Magcro is either S-tier or A-tier. I did not make this list up, it’s from very well known pvp content creators and streamers.

Any class that is S tier or A+ are over performing. Any class that is C- or C+ (ahem non bomber Magblades) are under performing. Classes that fall between A- and B- are balanced (not good, and not bad either, BALANCED).

Boneyard is meh, I say don’t nerf it. I was there when update 23 came out and boneyard got a 32% damage nerf. It’s still a pretty lethal skill still to this day but meh, let the necros have their boneyard.

Keep the boneyard harmony builds but necro mitigation needs to be toned down a bit. The hots that you get from siphoning dead bodies need to be toned down a bit or have a cap at the amount of corpses you can siphon from. Expunge needs to have a cast time that can be interruptible or it needs to cost magicka/stamina. Last but not least, Pestilent and Glacial Colossus need to have audible and visual effects for counterplay purposes. If you claim that this skill is very hard to land on people, I don’t know what to tell you, I really don’t.

Sneakers · July 2021

Well honestly, people cried about TANK META. Now we have a meta were everyone takes insane amounts of damage and heals insane amounts of health from large heals/big HoTs.

Many of us said this would happend if they touched mitigation levels and damage levels, and they did both. Enjoy.

Also I told you so. Aaaah feels good to be right.

jecks33 · July 2021

the ONLY 2 skills that hit me for 10/15k in pvp are blastbones and subterranean assault. I get similar damage only from certain ultis (not all).

Strange that 2 skills that hit harder that the majority of ultimates are from 2 paying classes...

Castagere · July 2021

BohnT2 wrote: »

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

Thats not the impression esologs gives.

It should have been clear that this is not a PvE related topic

Yeah but as soon as NERFS comes it will affect PVE.

Andre_Noir · July 2021

jecks33 wrote: »

the ONLY 2 skills that hit me for 10/15k in pvp are blastbones and subterranean assault. I get similar damage only from certain ultis (not all).

Strange that 2 skills that hit harder that the majority of ultimates are from 2 paying classes...

It's because they are hard to land, at least harder then incap or Merciless Resolve as read LMAO

Flaaklypa · July 2021

LOL what a way to spin things out of context. a sorcerer have streak (infinite evasion and speed) with no counters. especailly others like ball of lightning

LOL

is sorcerers overpreforming and then u want to nerf them too? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Elo106 · July 2021

Andre_Noir wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

the ONLY 2 skills that hit me for 10/15k in pvp are blastbones and subterranean assault. I get similar damage only from certain ultis (not all).

Strange that 2 skills that hit harder that the majority of ultimates are from 2 paying classes...

It's because they are hard to land, at least harder then incap or Merciless Resolve as read LMAO

Subterranean and blastbones are delayed so you can combo them with other damage, making them better than incap or merciless.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2021

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

Thats not the impression esologs gives.

What logs are you looking at? Clearly, this is aimed at PVP, but if you look at the group comp of the Top 10 Rockgrove scores:

-All 10 have a necro tank (and a DK tank), all 10 have at least 2 Necro DPS, one has as many as 4, and a few have 3. 2 of them also have a necro healer.

-Of the 80 DPS that make up the top 10 scores: 25 necros, 25 Nightblades, 11 Sorcs, 10 DKs, 6 Wardens, 3 templars.

-No class other than Necro can be found in all 3 roles.

They certainly aren't Underperforming in logs...

Afterip · July 2021

I play on PC EU and spent the whole week running on BG magcro and scored 2 million alliance points. And during all this time, I came across about 5 magcros, and only one of them was a strong player.
And if necromancers are so strong, then why don't I see them on BG? Once there was a fight in which out of 15 players, 6! were NB. I see a lot of Sorc and DK that cause just a monstrous amount of damage, plars confidently take the place of a tank for dealing damage, NB is generally impossible to kill without a potion for detecting invisibility, so the varden have become smaller. BUT WHERE ARE THESE NECROMANCERS WHO ARE SO STRONG ?

Parasaurolophus · July 2021

Afterip wrote: »

I play on PC EU and spent the whole week running on BG magcro and scored 2 million alliance points. And during all this time, I came across about 5 magcros, and only one of them was a strong player.
And if necromancers are so strong, then why don't I see them on BG? Once there was a fight in which out of 15 players, 6! were NB. I see a lot of Sorc and DK that cause just a monstrous amount of damage, plars confidently take the place of a tank for dealing damage, NB is generally impossible to kill without a potion for detecting invisibility, so the varden have become smaller. BUT WHERE ARE THESE NECROMANCERS WHO ARE SO STRONG ?

We're talking about stamcro.

Urzigurumash · July 2021

To summarize the point I attempted to get across in my above posts:

I don't think it's a stretch to say Necro is and always has been in an overtuned state. The question is, do we want to simply reduce their power, making them a less interesting choice, or, increase their difficulty - or if you prefer - their unreliability? Perhaps even increasing their unreliability substantially and also increasing their tooltips - as hard on the ears as that might be.

All the numerous complaints about Necro's clunkiness over the years - especially Mag - can't be written off as sheer noobishness. Like I've said before, if everybody shot like Steph Curry the 3 point line would be moved to half-court. I think it's appropriate there's a class which fulfills the role of "the most difficult to use, the most unreliable, the most situational and circumstantial, but the most powerful when things go right". Perhaps we should consider whether things simply go right for Necros too often, rather than that their numerical advantage is too great. This is also theoretically a role fulfilled by NB. I would say Wardens and DKs should occupy the opposite end of the spectrum, simply by their names alone: the Guardian and Knight classes - the stalwart, unfailing classes.

Just a different take, agreeing with the general tenor of OP but being cautious of encouraging further homogenization and tepidity in how classes play and feel compared to each other. The OP specifically recommended against further homogenization, but an entire rework of the class is probably a bit much to expect, so a reduction of their power, and even giving them in-class Major Brutality/Sorcery/Savagery/Prophecy to compensate, might be a homogenizing change.

Or, if any suggestion that Necro is in some ways more challenging to play than other classes, if the fact that this class still hasn't showed up in the "senior slot" in Solo Queue BGs on Xbox NA other than 1 or 2 StamCros, really are just signs of console PvP Skyrim scrubishness, then go ahead and say it.

ThePianist · July 2021

Ah the battlegrounds argument. Sonny...one day you’re going to have to graduate from bootcamp and get into real pvp. Cyrodiil and Imperial city.

I’ve already laid out my reasons as to why necros are over performing. Pvp content creators and streamers that made tier lists have their own reasons. But my biggest quirk with necros are the infinite purges at will.

Warden purge is not at will. It removes 1 debuff every couple of seconds, which is unreliable.

Templars have built in purges but their purges are not infinite. They cost resources.

Necro expunge should have a cast time like dark deal and make it interruptible. If they won’t add cast time, at least make it a magicka or stamina purge. A health based purge doesn’t make sense, this is how necros have infinite purges.

The ability to debuff your opponent is a form of counterplay. Having infinite purges removes that counter play. ALSO necros can literally stand in oils and cold fire dots and not worry a thing. The battleground bootcamp people probably don’t know what a cold fire dot is.

Urzigurumash · July 2021

ThePianist wrote: »

Ah the battlegrounds argument. Sonny...one day you’re going to have to graduate from bootcamp and get into real pvp. Cyrodiil and Imperial city.

I’ve already laid out my reasons as to why necros are over performing. Pvp content creators and streamers that made tier lists have their own reasons. But my biggest quirk with necros are the infinite purges at will.

Warden purge is not at will. It removes 1 debuff every couple of seconds, which is unreliable.

Templars have built in purges but their purges are not infinite. They cost resources.

Necro expunge should have a cast time like dark deal and make it interruptible. If they won’t add cast time, at least make it a magicka or stamina purge. A health based purge doesn’t make sense, this is how necros have infinite purges.

The ability to debuff your opponent is a form of counterplay. Having infinite purges removes that counter play. ALSO necros can literally stand in oils and cold fire dots and not worry a thing. The battleground bootcamp people probably don’t know what a cold fire dot is.

I've played since console launch man. I operate the oldest one-man army Hot Oil dumping guild on Xbox NA AD.

Everybody here knows the differences between the PvP modes. Certain things are more pronounced in BGs, without the cushion of infinite space and time.

If BGs are more casual, and the MMR is mostly a log of games played, the reference to BG MMRs on my server is worth considering regarding how fun to play the class is, which is closely related to this difficulty / reliability thing. Within like the first few weeks of Necro being released we had MagCro Emps on my server, if I recall. They were 4 shotting tanks with just Gravy and Colossus. That's what I remember. Still, they've never really showed up in our BGs the way Tier Lists would make you think they would. That's been my experience. They're really strong in all forms of PvP, but the majority of players seem to prefer to play other classes in BGs. It says something about the nature of the class - particularly, it's GCD and slot hungry, as people say about the "spinning plates". When I talk about DKs and Wardens being "reliable", this is one particular thing I mean: they should be able to keep up the majority of their buffs with less GCDs and carry out their offense with a simpler combination of skills than a Necro, who should depend on successfully timing a particular order of numerous rituals. BGs are more quickly paced than Cyro or IC. Each GCD starts to matter more, and is a larger proportion of the TTK - Necros become exponentially more "unreliable". In Cyro where you have the space and time to "kite until Ult", the GCD costs are less burdensome. That's my read of things.

The stark difference between the state of MagCro in Cyro and BGs over the years on Xbox NA, I think, can illustrate how the class can at once be the strongest and "not fun to play", as the OP says. Even in our No Procrodiil on Xbox, Necro was sometimes one of the least represented classes on Alliance leaderboards, despite clearly being one of the strongest classes.

I'm with you on Hexproof, that was my first post in this thread. A recent example of "making the class more difficult without nerfing its potential power" might be the removal of the self-heal from Graverobber. For Hexproof, besides a cast time like you say maybe just increase its health cost substantially or give it some other self debuff ala Spell Symmetry. Curative Curse and Disdain Harm - give them some additional proc condition that requires more player input, or something.

Raltin · July 2021

The ONLY thing I have to add to this is that this statement is 100% correct... for PvP. In terms of PvE, on the other hand... it's damn near the exact opposite. Necromancers as a class are practically tailor-built for PvP, while the only truly good thing in PvE they can do is tanking. Outside of PvP, where death can happen in an instant and you can respawn with all your resources refilled like in a battlegrounds match, when you take a necromancer dps, Magicka or stamina, and shove them into a prolonged PvE battle situation, one thing becomes readily apparent: they have CRAP sustain. Sure, they can regain small amounts of magick and stamina from kills happening around them, but that doesn't help you in the slightest when the boss you're up against has no additional mobs helping them.

Compare the PvE necromancer dps sustain to that of a Templar or a Nightblade... Both templars and nightblades are MASTERS of sustain... nightblade gains this from the Siphoning Attacks skill, which restores 4-5k stamina or magicka if you let it run its full 20 second duration, while also restoring health, and magicka or stamina to you for your light and heavy attacks (the health of which is a very hefty return), encouraging you to weave to the best of your ability to maintain your resource pools, which is essential to dps as weaving is an integral part of combat. Templars on the other hand have restoring aura... magplars can morph it into an absolutely MASSIVE aoe that can apply minor magicka steal to as many enemies as it hits, whereas stamplars can morph it into an instant corpse-succ ability that siphons 3-5k health and 3k stamina instantly from kills, which also has a chance to crit-heal and restore even more resources... combine that with the two rune focus morphs; which depending on the morph not only provide major resolve for a hefty 5.9k armor boost, but also restore roughly 5k stamina or magicka over their run time, and HEALS the templar about 1.5k health every second if they hold their ground and stay inside the rune.

Necromancers don't even come close to that kind of PvE sustainability. This does, however, tie into your aforementioned problem about them being far too healthy of a class... the closest equivalent necromancers have to the stamina/magicka returns of classes like Templars and Nightblades is their Siphon ability, which functions similarly to the restoring aura templar morph, in that it targets a corpse to activate, and can be morphed to restore stamina or magicka. The problem with this ability is that it OVER-heals compared to the magicka or stamina it restores... it can restore upwards of nearly 20k health over its long run time, but the stamina or magicka it restores is an absolutely ***-poor 1k... that is pathetic for PvE content. Necromancers have NO other means of restoring their magicka or stamina save for this one ability, and the passive that restores about 200 stamina/magicka for every death that happens within a certain meter radius of them... i've tried necromancer, and let me tell you: IT DOES NOT COMPENSATE for the absolute sustain train that is the nightblade and templar arsenal.

To recap, I think that a LOT of necromancer's problems can be solved by merely nerfing the amount of healing they receive, while BUFFING the resource restores they receive. Lower the dps on a few certain abilities that make them the absolute be-all end-all of both necromancer builds, while buffing the dps on other abilities that are their equivalents to other classes... (case in point, a templar's puncturing sweep, the very first aedric spear ability, is an absolute BEAST for dps, while a necromancer's scythe is only SLIGHTLY more useful than the base 2h ability cleave before it gets morphed into Brawler, which provides a damage shield, or its other morph).

BohnT2 · July 2021

Flaaklypa wrote: »

LOL what a way to spin things out of context. a sorcerer have streak (infinite evasion and speed) with no counters. especailly others like ball of lightning

LOL

is sorcerers overpreforming and then u want to nerf them too? [snip]

BoL is indeed an overperforming skill and should be nerfed because it's a huge defensive carry shutting down multiple other specs.

However I'll explain why the situation with sorcs is different than with necromancers:

Sorcerer is a well designed class, that has without a doubt issues, some in their favor like BoL being overpowered, overload causing HP desyncs, others not so much, like having their viability for solo play being linked to how tanky a meta is, Frags traveltime still sitting at 450ms or endless fury having a 800ms traveltime or not having scaling defences.

However those issues don't change the fact that Sorc has a unique gameplay style that differentiates it from all other specs in the entire game and makes the class fun to play. This starts with there being more than one useable archetypes of magsorc in PvP. Zoo-Sorc, single pet sorc, or no pet have all been more or less viable over the years which was always dependent on the current meta but those playstyles have always existed.
This means Sorcerer was designed with a clear class philosophy behind it and has a proper gameplay design.

All of this doesn't exist for Necromancer, their skill cap is extremely low as staying alive and killing people is done by using overperforming skills and you will only be using those overperforming skills because the rest of the class skills is trash. For Necro there's no independent class philosophy and even less of a proper gameplay design, the offence is made up by a single overperforming skill (blastbones) and defensive wise there is no risk at all as you have access to overperforming Hots and burst heals. This combination causes necromancer to be not fun to play and even less fun to fight against.

A properly designed class is like a clockwork where all elements fit together like pieces of a puzzle to create a completely different game experience for every single one of them and this has to be noticeable for you and for the person facing it in the first 5 seconds of a fight and i don't mean due to visuals.

Also I don't play on PS4 NA and I haven't had "my own class" for ages, I play every single spec in the game and I've done so for at least 4 years now.

[edited to remove quote]

Extinct_Solo_Player · July 2021

Would be nice for my stam dk to have a spammable that deals the same damage as my ultimate while also being LoS. Intensive mender healing tooltip for 20k per 2 seconds while cauterizes is half of that and ticks per 5 seconds,coil giving stam back and the heal still bugged,double ticking yet you fail to mention that. Those poor magcros really have it bad compared to others LOL. Btw theres more than one way to play magcro than harmony builds so don't act like thats the only way to play it.

BohnT2 · July 2021

Raltin wrote: »

The ONLY thing I have to add to this is that this statement is 100% correct... for PvP. In terms of PvE, on the other hand... it's damn near the exact opposite. Necromancers as a class are practically tailor-built for PvP, while the only truly good thing in PvE they can do is tanking. Outside of PvP, where death can happen in an instant and you can respawn with all your resources refilled like in a battlegrounds match, when you take a necromancer dps, Magicka or stamina, and shove them into a prolonged PvE battle situation, one thing becomes readily apparent: they have CRAP sustain. Sure, they can regain small amounts of magick and stamina from kills happening around them, but that doesn't help you in the slightest when the boss you're up against has no additional mobs helping them.

Compare the PvE necromancer dps sustain to that of a Templar or a Nightblade... Both templars and nightblades are MASTERS of sustain... nightblade gains this from the Siphoning Attacks skill, which restores 4-5k stamina or magicka if you let it run its full 20 second duration, while also restoring health, and magicka or stamina to you for your light and heavy attacks (the health of which is a very hefty return), encouraging you to weave to the best of your ability to maintain your resource pools, which is essential to dps as weaving is an integral part of combat. Templars on the other hand have restoring aura... magplars can morph it into an absolutely MASSIVE aoe that can apply minor magicka steal to as many enemies as it hits, whereas stamplars can morph it into an instant corpse-succ ability that siphons 3-5k health and 3k stamina instantly from kills, which also has a chance to crit-heal and restore even more resources... combine that with the two rune focus morphs; which depending on the morph not only provide major resolve for a hefty 5.9k armor boost, but also restore roughly 5k stamina or magicka over their run time, and HEALS the templar about 1.5k health every second if they hold their ground and stay inside the rune.

Necromancers don't even come close to that kind of PvE sustainability. This does, however, tie into your aforementioned problem about them being far too healthy of a class... the closest equivalent necromancers have to the stamina/magicka returns of classes like Templars and Nightblades is their Siphon ability, which functions similarly to the restoring aura templar morph, in that it targets a corpse to activate, and can be morphed to restore stamina or magicka. The problem with this ability is that it OVER-heals compared to the magicka or stamina it restores... it can restore upwards of nearly 20k health over its long run time, but the stamina or magicka it restores is an absolutely ***-poor 1k... that is pathetic for PvE content. Necromancers have NO other means of restoring their magicka or stamina save for this one ability, and the passive that restores about 200 stamina/magicka for every death that happens within a certain meter radius of them... i've tried necromancer, and let me tell you: IT DOES NOT COMPENSATE for the absolute sustain train that is the nightblade and templar arsenal.

To recap, I think that a LOT of necromancer's problems can be solved by merely nerfing the amount of healing they receive, while BUFFING the resource restores they receive. Lower the dps on a few certain abilities that make them the absolute be-all end-all of both necromancer builds, while buffing the dps on other abilities that are their equivalents to other classes... (case in point, a templar's puncturing sweep, the very first aedric spear ability, is an absolute BEAST for dps, while a necromancer's scythe is only SLIGHTLY more useful than the base 2h ability cleave before it gets morphed into Brawler, which provides a damage shield, or its other morph).

Necromancer has one of the best sustain in PvE (and PvP) and they're definitely not just good at tanking. They pull the highest or second highest DPS while also providing major vulnerability ensuring them at least 2 spots in every raid group with 3-4 necros per group being most common.

BohnT2 · July 2021

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Would be nice for my stam dk to have a spammable that deals the same damage as my ultimate while also being LoS. Intensive mender healing tooltip for 20k per 2 seconds while cauterizes is half of that and ticks per 5 seconds,coil giving stam back and the heal still bugged,double ticking yet you fail to mention that. Those poor magcros really have it bad compared to others LOL. Btw theres more than one way to play magcro than harmony builds so don't act like thats the only way to play it.

The double ticking bug has been fixed, we've tried it over and over again and it's not happening anymore.
However it does often heal blastbones causing more ticks than you'd expect in a CTX.

Doesn't change the fact that mortal coil is still horribly overperforming providing loads of healing at no cost and granting 200 stamregen and 3% healing done.

Afterip · July 2021

As magnecro i can say somethin about this class.
First of all, my BEST CC skill is the Dawnbreaker. Because the bone totem has a delay of 2 seconds to scare anyone within a radius of 6 m, Grave grasp has a delay of 1-2 second to cause a second/third circle to root or stun someone in front of you at a distance of 10-18 m, and the third blow of the Colossus stuns only blinded guys, any guys with eyes will run away or push block after the first blow.
My main spamable skill is Force shock, becouse Skulls sooooooo slow, they fly slower than even light attack hits. Sometimes i swap force shock to Elemental Weapon.
Of cource i use Stalking Blastbones, they do 5-6k every 3 sec if they will not blocked or dodged(then ~2.5k or 0 lol).Sometimes they died before can hit target.
About my healers stuff. Ofc i use Render Flesh, Spirit Mender and Restoring Tether.They are strong because magcro has no mobility skills and their class control skills are incredibly weak. And do not talk about RaT, because everyone can use it, in addition to their CLASS CONTROL/ESCAPE SKILLS.
To BohnT2.
If you compare magcro and magdk in terms of healing. Please compare the controlling skills of those two classes. And something tells me that Dark Talons, Ferocious Leap, Fossilize, Fiery Grip and spammable Lava Whip with Warm passive MUCH BETTER CC SKILLS then Frozen Colossus, Bone Totem and Grave Grasp.
P.S. Forgive me for my mistakes, because english is not my native language.

BohnT2 · July 2021

Afterip wrote: »

As magnecro i can say somethin about this class.
First of all, my BEST CC skill is the Dawnbreaker. Because the bone totem has a delay of 2 seconds to scare anyone within a radius of 6 m, Grave grasp has a delay of 1-2 second to cause a second/third circle to root or stun someone in front of you at a distance of 10-18 m, and the third blow of the Colossus stuns only blinded guys, any guys with eyes will run away or push block after the first blow.
My main spamable skill is Force shock, becouse Skulls sooooooo slow, they fly slower than even light attack hits. Sometimes i swap force shock to Elemental Weapon.
Of cource i use Stalking Blastbones, they do 5-6k every 3 sec if they will not blocked or dodged(then ~2.5k or 0 lol).Sometimes they died before can hit target.
About my healers stuff. Ofc i use Render Flesh, Spirit Mender and Restoring Tether.They are strong because magcro has no mobility skills and their class control skills are incredibly weak. And do not talk about RaT, because everyone can use it, in addition to their CLASS CONTROL/ESCAPE SKILLS.
To BohnT2.
If you compare magcro and magdk in terms of healing. Please compare the controlling skills of those two classes. And something tells me that Dark Talons, Ferocious Leap, Fossilize, Fiery Grip and spammable Lava Whip with Warm passive MUCH BETTER CC SKILLS then Frozen Colossus, Bone Totem and Grave Grasp.

Undoubtedly Magdk has a much better offensive stun in fossilize than any necromancer stun.
Defensive wise bone totem is unchallenged tho.

Having class specific mobility only becomes relevant, when the generic skills can't compete with them, for example magsorc has much better mobility than magnecro could ever dream of due to streak.
For other classes this doesn't hold up as good because RaT provides Snare immunity and major expedition which is more mobility than other class skills can provide.
Templar has no native snare removal--> less mobility than rat
DK has wings but those only last for 2 seconds and don't grant major expedition --> less mobility than rat
Warden has no native source of snare removal ---> less mobility than rat
Magnb well who am i joking magnb is so trash that phantasmal escape doesn't matter

This means magnecro is on par with 4/6 magspecs mobility wise, as they all use RaT.

What makes necro isn't OP because it deals the highest damage (it doesn't) but because it deals sufficient damage to kill stuff while being much more tanky than any other class.
If a fight has only 2 possible outcomes which are
1. The necro wins
2. The fight ends in a draw
Then this is a prove that the class is overperforming, which becomes more blatant the more likely it is for the Necro to actually win.

And over the last patches this has become more and more relevant for magnecro while it has been always the case for stamnecro.

Afterip · July 2021

Templar has no native snare removal--> less mobility than rat.Templars has a Binding Spear and a Tipping Charge. Better CC than necro.
DK has wings but those only last for 2 seconds and don't grant major expedition --> less mobility than rat.Still has a better CC than necro.
Warden has no native source of snare removal ---> less mobility than rat.Probably, only Wardens has the same CC as necro, so they also decided to be tanky.
Magnb well who am i joking magnb is so trash that phantasmal escape doesn't matter. Cloak and shadow are almost the best escape skills in the game and cloak give them a great advantage in battle, which can be regarded as a better CC than necro..

This means magnecro is on par with 4/6 magspecs mobility wise, as they all use RaT, and 1/6 magspecs with potential of class Crowd Control skills.

With all those skill on front bar you will kill only afk player or pve player with blue random equip.

Urzigurumash · July 2021

About CC, this is another area where MagCro fulfills the "most powerful, but most difficult to use" thing. Grave Grasp is a perfect example of what I mean when I say MagCro has "mathematical advantages, burdened with kinetic disadvantages". Correct me if I'm wrong but Grave Grasp is the longest ranged, non-gapcloser, non-Ult, AoE Stun in the game. It's so difficult to reliably use that Stun - i.e. its kinetic disadvantage is so great - that I understand why it's described as a "trash" skill, but, it is the "mathematically strongest" stun in the game in terms of range+area. Perhaps the mathematically strongest non-Ult CC in the game in terms of the number of potential targets it could snare / immobilize / stun - but very unreliable and difficult to control. Right?

Afterip · July 2021

To Urzigurumash.
You are absolutely right. In my opinion Grave Grasp better use in Pve, because in pvp every good player just run away from that circles and you will spend ~3.3k magica for nothing.

BohnT2 · July 2021

Afterip wrote: »

Templar has no native snare removal--> less mobility than rat.Templars has a Binding Spear and a Tipping Charge. Better CC than necro.
DK has wings but those only last for 2 seconds and don't grant major expedition --> less mobility than rat.Still has a better CC than necro.
Warden has no native source of snare removal ---> less mobility than rat.Probably, only Wardens has the same CC as necro, so they also decided to be tanky.
Magnb well who am i joking magnb is so trash that phantasmal escape doesn't matter. Cloak and shadow are almost the best escape skills in the game and cloak give them a great advantage in battle, which can be regarded as a better CC than necro..

This means magnecro is on par with 4/6 magspecs mobility wise, as they all use RaT, and 1/6 magspecs with potential of class Crowd Control skills.

With all those skill on front bar you will kill only afk player or pve player with blue random equip.

Those skills are only placed in this way to compare them to a Magdk with the same build.
If you look closely I didn't even put any skills on the back bar because of this.

You're picking out individual things like cloak or shade for magnb or CC for magdk and try to argue that magnecro can't be op because it's not top of the class in those categories.
You have to look at the whole package the class packs and how it works in Cyro.

BohnT2 · July 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

About CC, this is another area where MagCro fulfills the "most powerful, but most difficult to use" thing. Grave Grasp is a perfect example of what I mean when I say MagCro has "mathematical advantages, burdened with kinetic disadvantages". Correct me if I'm wrong but Grave Grasp is the longest ranged, non-gapcloser, non-Ult, AoE Stun in the game. It's so difficult to reliably use that Stun - i.e. its kinetic disadvantage is so great - that I understand why it's described as a "trash" skill, but, it is the "mathematically strongest" stun in the game in terms of range+area. Perhaps the mathematically strongest non-Ult CC in the game in terms of the number of potential targets it could snare / immobilize / stun - but very unreliable and difficult to control. Right?

It's trash.
No damage, no secondary effect and no control at all.

Urzigurumash · July 2021

BohnT2 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

About CC, this is another area where MagCro fulfills the "most powerful, but most difficult to use" thing. Grave Grasp is a perfect example of what I mean when I say MagCro has "mathematical advantages, burdened with kinetic disadvantages". Correct me if I'm wrong but Grave Grasp is the longest ranged, non-gapcloser, non-Ult, AoE Stun in the game. It's so difficult to reliably use that Stun - i.e. its kinetic disadvantage is so great - that I understand why it's described as a "trash" skill, but, it is the "mathematically strongest" stun in the game in terms of range+area. Perhaps the mathematically strongest non-Ult CC in the game in terms of the number of potential targets it could snare / immobilize / stun - but very unreliable and difficult to control. Right?

It's trash.
No damage, no secondary effect and no control at all.

Right I understand, not disagreeing that the end result of the skill is trash. Just pointing out how this skill reflects what I mean about the overall state of MagCro being at once powerful on paper but extremely clumsy in practice. It does have Minor Maim as a secondary effect, but I'd still take Choking Talons over it any day. I know one experienced crown said he was messing with it as an alternative to Bombard after GG's last rework, don't think he stuck with it though.

Afterip · July 2021

BohnT2 wrote: »

You're picking out individual things like cloak or shade for magnb or CC for magdk and try to argue that magnecro can't be op because it's not top of the class in those categories.
You have to look at the whole package the class packs and how it works in Cyro.

But it was you who started comparing magncro and magdk in this post:

BohnT2 wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Is it that time again Bohn 😆

It has been this time since Elsweyr dropped.

Here's a short comparison of some key stats and skills from a magicka necromancer and a magdk, using the same build (which wouldn't be the case as magnecro can run 2-3 offensive sets with only one defensive one while magdk is more or less forced to run 2-3 defensive sets)
Anyway here's the Magnecro screenshots

Followed by the magdk:

I like to point out the following discrepancies in favor of magnecro:
Penetration: 6.4k vs 4.9k
Regen: 1.4kmag&1191stam vs 1.2kmag&951stam
Health: 33.9k vs 32.4k

Magdk only has an advantage in Crit chance due to major prophecy and 34.8k vs 31.5k spell resistance.

When we're looking at mitigation Necromancer is still on top even when it comes to magic damage taken due to its stats, when looking at Dot damage mitigation it's not even a competition anymore.

Especially fun to look at are some tooltips:
Degeneration: 19299 vs 16942
Spirit guardian: 6723 every 2 seconds for 2117
Cauterize: 8071 every 5 seconds for 1945
Spirit Guardian: 13448 every 2 seconds for 972
Moltenwhip with 2 stacks: 16896 for 2088
Blastbones with no damage buff: 16681 for 1258
Mortal coil: 27184 at no cost and giving 200 stamregen
Coagulating Blood: 14191 for 3662
Resistant Flesh: 17649 for 4234

As you can see there is a reason how i come to the conclusion Necromancer is overperforming.
All this hasn't even taken into account how magnecro is extremely gcd saving, none of the skills require you to waste gcds and the amount of hots allows you to be offensive much longer than others.
This also hasn't taken a look at the amount of ultimate necro can generate and how it can stall or flip fights with Ravenous goliath.

The class is overperforming and it's in desperate need of a rework in order to make it more balanced and more fun to play because right now it's neither of those two things.

And you were not objective in comparing these two classes, because you only compared healing and damage, but left СС without attention.

Afterip · July 2021

To BohnT2.
We may have had a misunderstanding. By pvp, I mean small fights of 1x1, 1x2, 2x2, 2x3,3x3 and so. In such types of combat, especially 1x1, it is extremely important to be able to control the enemy, because it depends on whether you can finish him off when he is at low hp and win the fight or not. And just in such battles, magсro is very bad with his control.

ZOS_GregoryV · July 2021

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Remathilis · July 2021

New change to battle spirit: Necromancer and Warden can't enter Cyrodiil/IC.

PVP is happy. PvE is happy.