Iccotak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I love how this whole 'MAKE OVERLAND HARDER' thing started as supposedly just wanting a better challenge and they swore up and down that they didn't care about loot.

Now suddenly people are getting a LOT more vocal about requiring loot to be better too.

And a lot of people have said no to loot as well [snip]

Spot on, people now a day are so dishonest in their arguments. It's really sad. People wanna be right at any cost.
Makes for depressing arguments where nobody reach a reasonable settlement...

[edited to remove quote]

Alurria wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I love how this whole 'MAKE OVERLAND HARDER' thing started as supposedly just wanting a better challenge and they swore up and down that they didn't care about loot.

Now suddenly people are getting a LOT more vocal about requiring loot to be better too.

Better loot was always the real point for almost all of this. Some say they want more challenge for its own sake, and how can you prove that wrong? It's a subjective statement of personal interest.

Watch though. When/if we get difficulty modifying options that don't increase drop rates or value of loot in the harder content, these 'EVERYTHING IS TOO EZ' posts will turn immediately into 'I PLAY ON HARD AND I DESERVE BETTER DROPS' rants.

Because that will always have been the real goal for the vast majorities. There are doubtlessly some outliers that actually mean it when they say they want more challenge, but you know, everyone's going to say that because it just sounds so gosh darn innocent and reasonable, even when; especially when; it's a complete lie.

And it always winds up circling the subjectives. Some people talk like 'fun' is an objective reference and that their personal idea of what that even means is the only real and true fun there is or should be to have. Some others bitterly complain about how they everything's too easy on their ultra-tweaked perfectly geared characters that they've been playing for often years.

Realistically, there was never going to be some kind of one-size-fits-all solution to a problem like this because even if we get a difficulty toggle, the Hard Mode option is going to be too easy for some, too hard for others and a one-size-fits-mostly-nobody solution that will probably cause more problems than it solves.

And just shy of nobody is going to bother with a difficulty toggle if there aren't greater rewards for doing so.

^This, most people reading these threads know this. I understand wanting a challenge, but we have content in game that is challenging. ZOS has provided the challenging content I see no need to redo things because someone doesn't want to do the provided challenge. That is why there is already a variety of content without redoing content that is there to further the story.

The time and effort everyone thinks is so easy to just flip a switch is a fallacy. Constantly bringing up the same topic really doesn't do what it's intended to do either.

Nobody blames players who complete veteran pve content for being greedy and just wanting purple gear and monster masks. Nobody blames god slayers for just wanting senche. It is normal to have some kind of stimulation in games. Oh my God, even the presence of just achievements, titles or some kind of cosmetic awards will already be enough incentive to play the veteran overland and questing.

Alurria wrote: »

BrownChicken wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I love how this whole 'MAKE OVERLAND HARDER' thing started as supposedly just wanting a better challenge and they swore up and down that they didn't care about loot.

Now suddenly people are getting a LOT more vocal about requiring loot to be better too.

Better loot was always the real point for almost all of this. Some say they want more challenge for its own sake, and how can you prove that wrong? It's a subjective statement of personal interest.

Watch though. When/if we get difficulty modifying options that don't increase drop rates or value of loot in the harder content, these 'EVERYTHING IS TOO EZ' posts will turn immediately into 'I PLAY ON HARD AND I DESERVE BETTER DROPS' rants.

Because that will always have been the real goal for the vast majorities. There are doubtlessly some outliers that actually mean it when they say they want more challenge, but you know, everyone's going to say that because it just sounds so gosh darn innocent and reasonable, even when; especially when; it's a complete lie.

And it always winds up circling the subjectives. Some people talk like 'fun' is an objective reference and that their personal idea of what that even means is the only real and true fun there is or should be to have. Some others bitterly complain about how they everything's too easy on their ultra-tweaked perfectly geared characters that they've been playing for often years.

Realistically, there was never going to be some kind of one-size-fits-all solution to a problem like this because even if we get a difficulty toggle, the Hard Mode option is going to be too easy for some, too hard for others and a one-size-fits-mostly-nobody solution that will probably cause more problems than it solves.

And just shy of nobody is going to bother with a difficulty toggle if there aren't greater rewards for doing so.

^This, most people reading these threads know this. I understand wanting a challenge, but we have content in game that is challenging. ZOS has provided the challenging content I see no need to redo things because someone doesn't want to do the provided challenge. That is why there is already a variety of content without redoing content that is there to further the story.

The time and effort everyone thinks is so easy to just flip a switch is a fallacy. Constantly bringing up the same topic really doesn't do what it's intended to do either.

Nobody blames players who complete veteran pve content for being greedy and just wanting purple gear and monster masks. Nobody blames god slayers for just wanting senche. It is normal to have some kind of stimulation in games. Oh my God, even the presence of just achievements, titles or some kind of cosmetic awards will already be enough incentive to play the veteran overland and questing.

The point is Overland content is for everyone wether you are a veteran player or new player. Even Caldwell's silver and gold didn't offer better rewards that I remember. So you are comparing apples and oranges. Dungeons and trials are already in the game and meant to be challenging content for veteran players and appropriately rewards them. Again Overland is for all players it's offered to all players, dungeons on hm or veteran are offered for experienced players. I see no need to redo content because some people don't want to do the harder content provided. I see no need to reward those people who do not progress by doing the harder content provided, and harder is subjective at best. This is my opinion and it won't be changed. It's always been about better rewards not all apparently but most who want this will want better rewards for doing content that is available to all in its current form which is not fair.

"For everyone" in the sense of skill required to complete it, but enjoyment is another thing entirely. Some players like myself have been at the game long enough to know how to play it to the point that overland enemies are beyond trivial. Think about how many mobs in the game have skills that exist only to stall themselves? We, players who already do the harder content provided, want to do stuff outside of that primarily grouped sphere, and ESO already has the tech for it to happen.

The standard ZOS sets for differing normal and vet, aside from perfected gear and monster helms, is stuff dropping in purple and more exp. The exp compensates for the longer time to kill things, which isn't enough as is with how much nBRP is farmed, and purple upgrade mats are effortless for experienced players to already have since anything they get from grouped content drops in purple. Neither of those things are game breaking, and as I said earlier, are both worthless enough that they may as well not be included if people are going to feel those rewards are too unfair to get.

The simple fact of the matter is experienced players, be them long time players or newer players looking to continue to face challenges, are both offered nothing with the current state of overland aside form tedium, and threads like this will continue, regardless of how many theories of us just being selfish individuals looking to exploit it crop up. We want to be able to enjoy the world and questing again, but enemies who are only able to stall themselves aren't worth dealing with.

Chadak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I love how this whole 'MAKE OVERLAND HARDER' thing started as supposedly just wanting a better challenge and they swore up and down that they didn't care about loot.

Now suddenly people are getting a LOT more vocal about requiring loot to be better too.

Better loot was always the real point for almost all of this. Some say they want more challenge for its own sake, and how can you prove that wrong? It's a subjective statement of personal interest.

[snip]

Realistically, there was never going to be some kind of one-size-fits-all solution to a problem like this because even if we get a difficulty toggle, the Hard Mode option is going to be too easy for some, too hard for others and a one-size-fits-mostly-nobody solution that will probably cause more problems than it solves.

And just shy of nobody is going to bother with a difficulty toggle if there aren't greater rewards for doing so.

I mean, why wouldn't a harder level of content at least drop higher-quality items, exactly the way dungeons do now? This is a core tenet of RPGs; level up, fight harder enemies, get better loot, fight harder stuff, etc. This game has no mid-tier of content where players who are beyond overland but not yet ready for vet arenas/dungeons can go. A harder overland would achieve this goal. It's not going to make someone rich because they got a purple Vampire Lord's Ring instead of a blue one. If I wanted to make millions of gold at the expense of casuals I'd just do what I already do and steal their Tel Var down in IC.

[edited to remove quote]

coop500 wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I love how this whole 'MAKE OVERLAND HARDER' thing started as supposedly just wanting a better challenge and they swore up and down that they didn't care about loot.

Now suddenly people are getting a LOT more vocal about requiring loot to be better too.

Better loot was always the real point for almost all of this. Some say they want more challenge for its own sake, and how can you prove that wrong? It's a subjective statement of personal interest.

Watch though. When/if we get difficulty modifying options that don't increase drop rates or value of loot in the harder content, these 'EVERYTHING IS TOO EZ' posts will turn immediately into 'I PLAY ON HARD AND I DESERVE BETTER DROPS' rants.

Because that will always have been the real goal for the vast majorities. There are doubtlessly some outliers that actually mean it when they say they want more challenge, but you know, everyone's going to say that because it just sounds so gosh darn innocent and reasonable, even when; especially when; it's a complete lie.

And it always winds up circling the subjectives. Some people talk like 'fun' is an objective reference and that their personal idea of what that even means is the only real and true fun there is or should be to have. Some others bitterly complain about how they everything's too easy on their ultra-tweaked perfectly geared characters that they've been playing for often years.

Realistically, there was never going to be some kind of one-size-fits-all solution to a problem like this because even if we get a difficulty toggle, the Hard Mode option is going to be too easy for some, too hard for others and a one-size-fits-mostly-nobody solution that will probably cause more problems than it solves.

And just shy of nobody is going to bother with a difficulty toggle if there aren't greater rewards for doing so.

I mean, why wouldn't a harder level of content at least drop higher-quality items, exactly the way dungeons do now? This is a core tenet of RPGs; level up, fight harder enemies, get better loot, fight harder stuff, etc. This game has no mid-tier of content where players who are beyond overland but not yet ready for vet arenas/dungeons can go. A harder overland would achieve this goal. It's not going to make someone rich because they got a purple Vampire Lord's Ring instead of a blue one. If I wanted to make millions of gold at the expense of casuals I'd just do what I already do and steal their Tel Var down in IC.

The problem is, that this WHOLE 'Overland is too easy, give us an option to make it harder!' crusade had used to always been prefaced with the fact people in favor supposedly didn't WANT better rewards and actually flat out said they don't want better rewards, they just want the big bads to be BAD (which is understandable, as a scrub I'm fine with the way they are but an optional thing that doesn't affect me but helps other players enjoy the story more? I am in favor for). Now suddenly we're hearing a different tune and it stops being 'it doesn't affect you in any way' when it actually CAN affect mat prices, gear prices and so on.

I am totally fine with a difficulty slider or something to that effect, but I am against better rewards and I am especially against it cause the whole ranting mess started with claiming nobody who wanted this cares and people got ATTACKED if someone pointed out that people just want better rewards.

Now here we are, people feeling entitled for better rewards, which is what most people against the difficulty slider thought the whole thing was all about from the start.

I mean, it's about both. Like I said, this is about facilitating a middle-tier of progression in the game, and even a chance at a higher-quality object is not out of line with that at all. It's exactly in-line with traditional RPG design, and with the design that ESO already practices in literally all of its normal/veteran content. But as far as how it effects endgame players who just want a place to do delves/public dungeons/quests and actually have a chance at dying? It really doesn't effect us at all. A bump from blue to purple, or whatever it may be, only offers the most modest of incentives to encourage people to tackle a harder challenge and keeps in line with the rest of the content in the game by doing so. For players who already have millions of gold and built-out characters, the challenge likely is the real incentive because it's not like those drops matter for us anyways.

Vevvev wrote: »

I'll just toss in my two cents, but I kinda miss the old level scaled zones because of the difficulty. Remember doing the story quests with the Harvester Daedra and coming up with plans how to not die in the encounters. If I couldn't take them on I used the games stealth mechanics to sneak by them and ESO felt more like an RPG because of it.

I actually had to think and choose how I wanted to tackle a situation instead of now where I go through and kill everything that moves. The difficulty forced players to use all the tools available to them to get through the overland quests, and that's what I miss the most. Emphasis on miss.... ESO used to not be this [snip] easy.

[edited for inappropriate content]

My friends and I all loved the difficulty of the veteran zones at launch. What we didn't like was simply the sheer length of time it took to hit max level if you weren't AoE grinding; the quests were fine and the difficulty was very fun, but having to go through three entire zones to hit max level was an enormous slog when you were trying to look forward to dipping into endgame PvP, dungeons, etc. If we could have been doing quests at that difficulty for like an RNG pool of gear rewards, using those difficult quests to build our gear sets and hone our builds, it would have been a lot more engaging. Of course, I kept playing, but none of my friends did. Now they won't play because it's an entirely different kind of slog; they've got overland mastered in a matter of hours, but the challenging content is still very, very far off. A vet overland could be that middle-tier of content that offers something for players caught between normal overland and endgame content, and could offer a more engaging experience for endgame players that want to explore and have some risk of death.

Sorbin wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

I'll just toss in my two cents, but I kinda miss the old level scaled zones because of the difficulty. Remember doing the story quests with the Harvester Daedra and coming up with plans how to not die in the encounters. If I couldn't take them on I used the games stealth mechanics to sneak by them and ESO felt more like an RPG because of it.

I actually had to think and choose how I wanted to tackle a situation instead of now where I go through and kill everything that moves. The difficulty forced players to use all the tools available to them to get through the overland quests, and that's what I miss the most. Emphasis on miss.... ESO used to not be this easy.

My friends and I all loved the difficulty of the veteran zones at launch. What we didn't like was simply the sheer length of time it took to hit max level if you weren't AoE grinding; the quests were fine and the difficulty was very fun, but having to go through three entire zones to hit max level was an enormous slog when you were trying to look forward to dipping into endgame PvP, dungeons, etc. If we could have been doing quests at that difficulty for like an RNG pool of gear rewards, using those difficult quests to build our gear sets and hone our builds, it would have been a lot more engaging. Of course, I kept playing, but none of my friends did. Now they won't play because it's an entirely different kind of slog; they've got overland mastered in a matter of hours, but the challenging content is still very, very far off. A vet overland could be that middle-tier of content that offers something for players caught between normal overland and endgame content, and could offer a more engaging experience for endgame players that want to explore and have some risk of death.

Yeah, that's the one thing I didn't like about it lol. Then the game was perfectly spaced in such a way if you didn't do all the side quests in the veteran rank zones you suddenly found yourself underleveled. Made it even harder than it otherwise would've been, which was a bit too extreme since I had no idea what I was doing back then. Remember having to collect all the fragments of Wuuthrad just to stand a chance in the final boss fight on the EP storyline on Cadwell's Gold.

I like your idea of adding a vet overland where things are tuned just a little harder, but not too much. There has to be a middle ground somewhere to teach my friends how to play the game without slamming into the difficulty that is the veteran dungeon. I typically tell them to try normal Maelstrom Arena since that seems to sit in that middle ground as far as I can tell.

for now you can RP difficulty. Without all that "play naked" bs:
- vampire lvl 4, so no health regen
- don't use any heals other than potions, no damage shields as well
- feel free to use any sets (w/o healing) and CP stuff, food etc
- try to avoid AOE skills, use mostly single target. Melee stamina is most fun in this case

Some encounters like Murkmire story quests for example, can be hard af with such setup.

coop500 wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Chadak wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I love how this whole 'MAKE OVERLAND HARDER' thing started as supposedly just wanting a better challenge and they swore up and down that they didn't care about loot.

Now suddenly people are getting a LOT more vocal about requiring loot to be better too.

Better loot was always the real point for almost all of this. Some say they want more challenge for its own sake, and how can you prove that wrong? It's a subjective statement of personal interest.

Watch though. When/if we get difficulty modifying options that don't increase drop rates or value of loot in the harder content, these 'EVERYTHING IS TOO EZ' posts will turn immediately into 'I PLAY ON HARD AND I DESERVE BETTER DROPS' rants.

Because that will always have been the real goal for the vast majorities. There are doubtlessly some outliers that actually mean it when they say they want more challenge, but you know, everyone's going to say that because it just sounds so gosh darn innocent and reasonable, even when; especially when; it's a complete lie.

And it always winds up circling the subjectives. Some people talk like 'fun' is an objective reference and that their personal idea of what that even means is the only real and true fun there is or should be to have. Some others bitterly complain about how they everything's too easy on their ultra-tweaked perfectly geared characters that they've been playing for often years.

Realistically, there was never going to be some kind of one-size-fits-all solution to a problem like this because even if we get a difficulty toggle, the Hard Mode option is going to be too easy for some, too hard for others and a one-size-fits-mostly-nobody solution that will probably cause more problems than it solves.

And just shy of nobody is going to bother with a difficulty toggle if there aren't greater rewards for doing so.

I mean, why wouldn't a harder level of content at least drop higher-quality items, exactly the way dungeons do now? This is a core tenet of RPGs; level up, fight harder enemies, get better loot, fight harder stuff, etc. This game has no mid-tier of content where players who are beyond overland but not yet ready for vet arenas/dungeons can go. A harder overland would achieve this goal. It's not going to make someone rich because they got a purple Vampire Lord's Ring instead of a blue one. If I wanted to make millions of gold at the expense of casuals I'd just do what I already do and steal their Tel Var down in IC.

The problem is, that this WHOLE 'Overland is too easy, give us an option to make it harder!' crusade had used to always been prefaced with the fact people in favor supposedly didn't WANT better rewards and actually flat out said they don't want better rewards, they just want the big bads to be BAD (which is understandable, as a scrub I'm fine with the way they are but an optional thing that doesn't affect me but helps other players enjoy the story more? I am in favor for). Now suddenly we're hearing a different tune and it stops being 'it doesn't affect you in any way' when it actually CAN affect mat prices, gear prices and so on.

I am totally fine with a difficulty slider or something to that effect, but I am against better rewards and I am especially against it cause the whole ranting mess started with claiming nobody who wanted this cares and people got ATTACKED if someone pointed out that people just want better rewards.

Now here we are, people feeling entitled for better rewards, which is what most people against the difficulty slider thought the whole thing was all about from the start.

The concensus on rewards has never been unanimous. It wasnt when the first thread popped up and it isnt now. It never will be. You simply cant paint the argument in an accurate manner that way.

The only consensus is that its too easy for some players.

The rewards are hardly worth mentioning. At most they would be an upgrade from green/blue to blue/purple. This is consistent with normal vs vet dungeons. If anything it would drop the prices on those mats and gear making them even more accessible to newer players.

That beind said, I wouldnt care if they raised the rewards or not, but there isn't consensus on it and there never will be.

Just as many people use the argument "its fine for new players", which very few asked to change what new players see. An optional veteran zone wouldn't make their game more difficult. Its just has hard to paint that side with broad strokes as well.