The Firesong DLC and Update 36 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Maintenance for the week of September 26:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 26
We will be performing maintenance for patch 8.2.1 on the PTS on Monday at 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC).

Hybrid builds hurt by new proc set system

deathbytiki
deathbytiki
✭✭
Greetings everyone,

Proc sets scaling for hybrid builds... Here are my thoughts after doing some tests now that I've had enough time to review the dynamics overall.

REDUCED damge and overall effectiveness for hybrid stats based on current Champion points, passives, and builds as measured by sustainability, damage per second, and proc chance.

The fact that proc sets now scale off highest value might seem good for hybrids but it has a cost on the ability side. Most hybrid builds balance spell and weapon damage due to split abilities...this works because it means you can level out resource consumption at the cost of high damage (sustain vs dps). That being the case, I thought most of the damage values for the proc sets were fair given the sacrifice compared to other sets which favor high dps and quick kills. The new proc system has REDUCED the damge pretty hard and the requisite for retaing previous damage on most sets is around 5.6k weapon or spell damge... which is practically impossible for hybrid builds.

That being said, if one does choose spell or weapon over the other, then base abilities will suffer because they may require one or the other. This is where the new system proves disappointing. At face value the scale off of weapon OR spell damsge is great for people who follow a stam or mag path BUT want to try different sets. I guess that meets diversity? But if you're playing in the hybrud realm where you have MUCH more to consider than just your set implications... then this change will again force hybrids into a more niche build structure (my opinion) because proc sets once used to help compensate for dps loss are effectively negated by "one or the other" changes. It would be nice if ESO would consider a combind stat or blend to produce values on proc sets so hybrids are not forced into niche structures. Something either through passive or champion point systens seems easy enough but I honestly believe it should be fundamental in combat dynamics.

Pretty saddened but the impact but I'm curious what other hybrid builders think.
Edited by deathbytiki on June 1, 2021 12:39AM
  • Amottica
    Amottica
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Is a build that requires proc sets to do damage truly a hybrid build or just a proc set build? I ask that because it seems Zos is wanting players to make a choice when using proc sets.
  • phaneub17_ESO
    phaneub17_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    My only hybrid character is a Dark Elf Templar with Blazing Spear, Biting Jabs, Soul Splitting Trap, Ritual of Retribution, and Resolving Vigor on the Front bar. Shrouded Daggers, Whirling Blades, Power of the Light, Solar Barrage, and Deadly Cloak on the Back bar. I'll be using the new Diamond's Victory for the Melee/Range Supremacy and Shacklebreaker.
  • stefj68
    stefj68
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    hybrid never reach 6700 wd/sd or 39k mag/stam :)
    so rip
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    As a fellow hybrid build owner, I empathize with you.

    I think that you're basically forced into being a vampire and using Toggle (Frenzy) if you want any chance at hitting the old values of your sets.

    You could also use the Pelinal's set and stack hard into Weapon Damage (e.g. Weapon Damage race, Templar or Sorcerer class, Warrior Mundus in Divines, Two-Handed or Dual-Wield front-bar, Infused Weapon Damage jewelry, 7 Medium Armor, Flawless Dawnbreaker ultimate, Fighters Guild skills, Vateshran Two-Hander, etc.). That setup will get you to extremely high unified Weapon and Spell Damage but it is a large build investment and limits you to "only" three proc sets (e.g. monster set, front-bar set, back-bar set).
  • Daffen
    Daffen
    ✭✭✭✭
    You guys need to realise that proc sets were not healthy for the PvP experience at all, you should not be able to deal so much damage that people just melt with no counterplay while building for a tank (which was possible last patch). Instead ZOS is making you do a choice, either use proc sets which is worse than last patch or make a regular build stacking wpn damage, spell damage, magicka, stamina or penetration.

    Sure, proc set changes are bad for hybrids who only used proc sets. And i like that because proc sets are just free, afk damage that requires no skill at all. Also cp changes absolutely nothing from a normal stamina build or a hybrid build. You still have damage done cp, healing done cp, recovery cp. Heck it was worse to make a hybrid before the cp changes because you needed to put points into magicka and stamina recovery in the green tree before instead of just slotting ONE cp star this patch. Medium armor + pelinals is all you need to easily hit 5.5k or more weapon damage, throw in vateshran 2h if you want to get some more damage, then run 1 defensive set so you dont die in 2 seconds in pvp. Now put on some magicka and stamina skills while using orzorga + tri-stat pots for magicka and stamina recovery and you have a hybrid build which is decent.
  • Lughlongarm
    Lughlongarm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    -First, let's be honest and admit for a second that hybrid builds were always a niche and unoptimized way to play the game(which I encourage).

    -Current patch offers more hybrid potential due to changes for weapon LA/HA scaling with both SD&WD and penetration having mostly a single stat(armor penetration).

    -The increase of base stats over stats bonus percentage for CP, is much more favorable for hybrid builds.

    -The current CP system is more favorable for Hybrid builds, you can equip stars which are relevant for both magicka and stamina and not splitt the power between the 2, like you had to do before.

    -Regarding the specific difficulty you have presented - The answer is as it has been many times before, for hybrid builds - "Pelinal's Aptitude" + medium armor(best armor pick ATM regardless).

    -Something like , Pelinal's Aptitude 5p + Zaan 2p + Wrath of Elements back bar+ Stinging Slashes front bar, Malacath's + 2p that adds WP.

    Mundus+ traits +race , everything goes to WP

    You will have 3 good procs on, your WP/SD should be over the required 6.4k.
    Edited by Lughlongarm on June 1, 2021 6:50AM
  • Anyron
    Anyron
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Daffen wrote: »
    You guys need to realise that proc sets were not healthy for the PvP experience at all, you should not be able to deal so much damage that people just melt with no counterplay while building for a tank (which was possible last patch). Instead ZOS is making you do a choice, either use proc sets which is worse than last patch or make a regular build stacking wpn damage, spell damage, magicka, stamina or penetration.

    Sure, proc set changes are bad for hybrids who only used proc sets. And i like that because proc sets are just free, afk damage that requires no skill at all. Also cp changes absolutely nothing from a normal stamina build or a hybrid build. You still have damage done cp, healing done cp, recovery cp. Heck it was worse to make a hybrid before the cp changes because you needed to put points into magicka and stamina recovery in the green tree before instead of just slotting ONE cp star this patch. Medium armor + pelinals is all you need to easily hit 5.5k or more weapon damage, throw in vateshran 2h if you want to get some more damage, then run 1 defensive set so you dont die in 2 seconds in pvp. Now put on some magicka and stamina skills while using orzorga + tri-stat pots for magicka and stamina recovery and you have a hybrid build which is decent.

    Right, but the clear and obvious answer was to nerf proc damage through Battle Spirit.

    That would have balanced it in the venue where it needed it while avoiding gutting proc sets for casual PvE players.

    No, nerfing proc sets damage through battle spirit Isn't solution. Sets which were overpowered by tank/hybrid builds would still be op compared to glasscannon proc sets. Scaling was good idea but that idea is raw and it needed some testing and adjusting to work

    Zos as always took someone elses idea and they coppied it completely without thinking.
    Full damage build should be able to reach live values with certain caps and conditions.

    1.Maximum damage should be capped to what is right now on live
    2. Damage should be severely reduced when you dont reach required spell damage/weapon damage values.
    3. Weapon and spell damage sets should not have same scaling. Its obvious stam will always have advantage over mag while using procsets.
    4. Proc sets should have hybrid damage formula, same as skills works. So it doesn't matter if you stack max resource or weapon/spell damage.
    5. No damage proc sets scaling via maximum health or resistances. That was colossally stupid idea.

    With this you can further adjust value on some sets if its overperforming.
  • Lughlongarm
    Lughlongarm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    Daffen wrote: »
    You guys need to realise that proc sets were not healthy for the PvP experience at all, you should not be able to deal so much damage that people just melt with no counterplay while building for a tank (which was possible last patch). Instead ZOS is making you do a choice, either use proc sets which is worse than last patch or make a regular build stacking wpn damage, spell damage, magicka, stamina or penetration.

    Sure, proc set changes are bad for hybrids who only used proc sets. And i like that because proc sets are just free, afk damage that requires no skill at all. Also cp changes absolutely nothing from a normal stamina build or a hybrid build. You still have damage done cp, healing done cp, recovery cp. Heck it was worse to make a hybrid before the cp changes because you needed to put points into magicka and stamina recovery in the green tree before instead of just slotting ONE cp star this patch. Medium armor + pelinals is all you need to easily hit 5.5k or more weapon damage, throw in vateshran 2h if you want to get some more damage, then run 1 defensive set so you dont die in 2 seconds in pvp. Now put on some magicka and stamina skills while using orzorga + tri-stat pots for magicka and stamina recovery and you have a hybrid build which is decent.

    Right, but the clear and obvious answer was to nerf proc damage through Battle Spirit.

    That would have balanced it in the venue where it needed it while avoiding gutting proc sets for casual PvE players.

    No, nerfing proc sets damage through battle spirit Isn't solution. Sets which were overpowered by tank/hybrid builds would still be op compared to glasscannon proc sets. Scaling was good idea but that idea is raw and it needed some testing and adjusting to work

    Zos as always took someone elses idea and they coppied it completely without thinking.
    Full damage build should be able to reach live values with certain caps and conditions.

    1.Maximum damage should be capped to what is right now on live
    2. Damage should be severely reduced when you dont reach required spell damage/weapon damage values.
    3. Weapon and spell damage sets should not have same scaling. Its obvious stam will always have advantage over mag while using procsets.
    4. Proc sets should have hybrid damage formula, same as skills works. So it doesn't matter if you stack max resource or weapon/spell damage.
    5. No damage proc sets scaling via maximum health or resistances. That was colossally stupid idea.

    With this you can further adjust value on some sets if its overperforming.

    100% agree on most of your points, Just wanted to add to all PVE players suggesting balancing via battle spirit, that also PVE got unique buffs system that can be used for balance. For example: Minor Slayer: increasing your damage done to Dungeon Trial and Arena Monsters by 5%, increases non crittable effects by 15%.
  • SimonBelmont
    SimonBelmont
    ✭✭✭
    I posted this reply initially in another thread. And, having read this thread, I see no reason to re-word it.

    [Paste]

    I don't understand why ZOS opted to modify Tanking Proc-Sets, across the board. Rather than create a static PvP filter to tune them to an environment not full of mobs and bosses, thus addressing player's concerns more directly.

    The idea that sinking all, or most, of your attribute points into Health is the "right way to play a Tank", is oppressive and punishing, to a role which is already pretty limited in its solo-viability; does what is generally a thankless job; and really just sucks to play.

    It makes sense that PvE Sets (including Proc-Sets) would cause imbalance in PvP, because they were clearly not designed with that environment in mind!

    There are how many PvP Sets in this game; at least 50..? And yet, pretty much all PvPers are wearing PvE-acquired gear... Why can't people (including ZOS) just accept that these two environments are inherently incompatible..? Both the problem, and the solution, seem sooo obvious.

    We need FILTERS. PvP-acquired gear should be the best in PvP. And PvE-acquired gear should be the best in PvE. And filters could dial each type back, when utilized outside its intended environment.

    It'd be like being a member of a boxing gym/club, and one person brings a hand grenade... Yup; MUCH more effective than boxing gloves! Because context has gone completely out the window (along with all the boxers; who are diving for cover!).

    P.S. This does not only apply to Tanking Proc-Sets. But it seems like those were some of the most ranted about. As well as being the most...out-of-place...in PvP(?). So I focused my examples around them.

    Edited by SimonBelmont on June 2, 2021 11:54AM
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amottica wrote: »
    Is a build that requires proc sets to do damage truly a hybrid build or just a proc set build? I ask that because it seems Zos is wanting players to make a choice when using proc sets.

    I would say no because proc sets give free damage and healing without requiring any sacrifice from the player. Even stamina builds can use magic damage procs now. The whole thing is broken.
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Its a shame that any non-medium armor stam build is losing a lot of dmg from proc sets. Even less sets are ending up being usable, so many fun and unique set in the game that are just ignored because the values make no sense.

    The list with useless items just keeps growing with changes like this.
    PC - EU (AD)
    Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
    Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
    Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
    Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
    Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
    Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
    Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
    Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I used to be a fan of the meta but I just got bored of it, I have been playing mostly hybrids and solo builds for a year or two now and there is absolutely no way I would ever go back. Most normal builds for damage tanks or healer are so unspeakably boring that I just cannot raise any interest in them.

    As a hybrid player I have gotten used to gaining a bit and then losing a bit, it just comes with the territory. However this latest change is one of the most crudely applied lump hammers I’ve ever seen, it will be solely responsible for the single greatest reduction in build diversity in the history of this game.

    On the plus side it has also annihilated any need I have to play any more dungeons, I have the one or two that are of use, the rest are irrelevant. So this badly considered change which has hit almost everything except the problem it was meant to fix, has at least freed up a fair bit of my spare time.

    😆

    I don't think they mean a damage/tank hybrid. They mean a magicka/stamina hybrid.
  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
    ✭✭✭✭
    stefj68 wrote: »
    hybrid never reach 6700 wd/sd or 39k mag/stam :)
    so rip

    You could reach 6.7 on a hybrid build but magic builds that have to stack spell damage are limited on available proc sets; this is a distinct difference. You can front/back bar buffs to reach the number for burst windows.

    It's generally better to build for burst proc damage than DOT proc damage unless you cam maintain 100% effectiveness for the whole duration of the proc damage. Not that the later is impossible but the steps involved share the annoyance Merciless Resolve has to land 5x LA to proc the bow. Skilled players won't have a problem weaving LA; others will struggle and that's were the 6.5k works against magic builds that need to stack spell damage. It impacts almost all their survival skills that scale better to max resources.

    This is why health stacking for periodic burst and heal damage is more effective and less effort to gain the fully proc benefits. This now works as intended according to the release.
  • wheresbes
    wheresbes
    ✭✭✭✭
    Hi, not to hijack this thread but someone can point me to the (official) post with the list of the changes in proc sets scaling, please? I remember I've read it some time ago but I can't seem to find it anymore and tomorrow is the "big" day for us console players... cheers
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    wheresbes wrote: »
    Hi, not to hijack this thread but someone can point me to the (official) post with the list of the changes in proc sets scaling, please? I remember I've read it some time ago but I can't seem to find it anymore and tomorrow is the "big" day for us console players... cheers

    @wheresbes Are you talking about the 7.0.5 patch notes?

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/575323/pc-mac-patch-notes-v7-0-5-blackwood-update-30

    (Go down to “Combat & Abilities”.)

    Or were you looking for the PTS versions?
  • wheresbes
    wheresbes
    ✭✭✭✭
    That's the one, thank you @BlueRaven
Sign In or Register to comment.