Clarity on CP changes please!

Hotdog_23 · April 2021

Still don’t know why ZOS does do what they did with CP1.0 and have diminishing returns in the stars and not static returns.

Example 10% gain with 5 stages.

Stage 1, 3% gain tor total 3%
Stage 2, 2% gain for total 5%
Stage 3, 2% gain for total 7%
Stage 4, 2 % gain for total 9%
Stage 5, 1% for the total of 10% gained.
Or
Stage 1, 4% gain tor total 4%
Stage 2, 2% gain for total 6%
Stage 3, 2% gain for total 8%
Stage 4, 1% gain for total 9%
Stage 5, 1% for the total of 10% gained.
Or
Stage 1, 5%
Stage 2, 2%
Stage 3, 1%
Stage 4, 1%
Stage 5, 1%

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS you didn’t fix the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

colossalvoids · April 2021

Going back to cp 1.0 but nerfed one next patch, as a plus earned exp will mean nothing yet again. 2 years in development lmao.

MoreTune · April 2021

Masel wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

Currently on Live servers. You need about 1175-1200 cp for ALL damage (blue) CP. this includes all passives and all 4 slottables.

Question: on PTS with them cutting the amount of passive CP in half. How much CP do you need for all damage passives and slottables? I’m assuming it’s much less than 1200 now ?

ZOS quoted 1560 as the maximum for vertical progression in the patch notes. That includes more than damage, though.

They don't seem to be touching slottables, so that's still 4x50 = 200 in blue alone for that (600 total CP).

The passives will be at 2 stages apiece, so:

20 for Precision
20 for Tireless Discipline/Eldritch Insight
20 for Blessed
20 for Quick Recovery
20 for Hardy
20 for Elemental "Defender" (apparently no one at ZOS got the memo that they renamed this to Elemental Aegis)
20 for Preparation
20 for Piercing
still 40 + 30 for Battle Mastery/Flawless Ritual and Mighty/War Mage (according to ZOS' math)

For all damage-dealing passives in addition to the 4 slottables, in either stam or mag, with no healing or mitigation passives, you will need 330 blue CP, or 990 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), but only in either stam or mag, you will need 430 blue CP, or 1290 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), in both stam and mag, you will need 520 blue CP, or 1560 total (ZOS' quoted max)

WOW thanks for the quick maths!
So precision etc is maxed at 20 now right? Not 40 with diminished returns ?

That's the way the patch notes read and the way that ZOS' math works, but unfortunately we can't confirm it or test it until the PTS reopens. Gina said that would most likely be in the morning (eastern US time).

I confirmed that already. And yes, I know that it works that way.

So this is 100% confirmed on the PTS today?

990 CP maxes out CP related damage?
And passives cap at 20 meaning you can’t put more than 20 points into non-slottables ?

@Masel

Avoranti · April 2021

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

... and close the gap a bit between lower CP and max CP people.

There 100% should be a gap between lower cp and max cp players. Punishing players who put in time to level their character to high level cp all because some casual low level players didn’t or couldn’t is wrong. Players who actually put in time (and money, xp scrolls) to get their characters more cp optimized shouldn’t be punished for doing so. Characters of higher cp levels 100% should be doing more damage, crit and have better mitigation than someone of lower cp. Thats the reward for putting in time leveling on the game.

But because of this, I’m now stuck as a cp1350 player in pug groups with cp 200 players that have horrible dps or understanding of mechanics OR are queued as the wrong role and ruining everyone’s experience. In my opinion, these changes are just creating a more toxic environment.

I understand bringing magicka and stamina characters of similar cp level more in-line with one another. Closing the dps gap. But not lower cp players and high cp players. If this is the case then what’s the point in leveling beyond cp160?

munster1404 · April 2021

I detest whiners who keep grumbling about the CP grind. The consequence of such selfish mumblings push the Devs to raise the bar for everyone else. Sure the good players will say they are fine with the changes or the content creators will wax lyrical about the good behind such unfun nerfs. But then again how many content creators will complain and jeopardize their source of revenue?

At no point was I ever discouraged about my lack of CPs, knowing fully that MMOs are natural time sinks. I just gain my CPs via the gazillion channels that the Devs provided players to boost their levelling such as enlightenment, XP potions/scrolls and the double XP events which seem to pop up every 2 months or so. Earning 5 to 7 CPs PER WEEK is straight forward enough by simply logging in, doing crafting writs and pick up a couple of dailies. And I can earn up to 10 CPs if I have a XP scroll/potion activated 24/7.

For context, I was at CP 1295 in November, now I'm at CP 1465. It's easy with all the sources of boosted levelling that ZoS is throwing at every player. To those whiners, I'm begging you guys to keep your mouths shut. Stop giving the Devs weird ideas.

qwudd · April 2021

What i cant understand is why they haven re-introduced diminishing returns in cp 2.0? They could keep everything just as on live, but deliver most of the bang on the first stages of a star (keep stages at 10th points invested, first stages give 500 mainstats, last give 125 or 75 or whatever) , with miniscule rewards for the last (i. E. ALMOST meaningless difference between 1500 to 1800 CP). Why this design with constant slow vertical progress => wham only horisontal left.

Grimm_Cortex · April 2021

I don't kown what ZoS want, except probably continue to loose players ...

First they put in place a CP 2.0 with 3600 level ... No comment ! I take a lot of time, effort to go on ...
Players thanks to the double xp event during 3/4 weeks invest times to farm xp ....

And now ! Now they decide to nerf every passive ... and what for ???? Balance fight in PVP ...

Stop ! Players who want to perform will always find a work around, but majority of us continue to be very angry about every nerfs they put in place ....

So If the and goal will be to allow a faster vertical progression, ok reduce the number of point needed but upgrade the bonus in order for player to be ok with that change.

Kurat · April 2021

munster1404 wrote: »

I detest whiners who keep grumbling about the CP grind. The consequence of such selfish mumblings push the Devs to raise the bar for everyone else. Sure the good players will say they are fine with the changes or the content creators will wax lyrical about the good behind such unfun nerfs. But then again who will complain and jeopardize their source of revenue?

At no point was I ever discouraged about my lack of CPs, knowing fully that MMOs are natural time sinks. I just gain my CPs via the gazillion channels that the Devs provided players to boost their levelling such as enlightenment, XP potions/scrolls and the double XP events which seem to pop up every 2 months or so. Earning 5 to 7 CPs PER WEEK is straight forward enough by simply logging in, doing crafting writs and pick up a couple of dailies. And I can earn up to 10 CPs if I have a XP scroll/potion activated 24/7.

For context, I was at CP 1295 in November, now I'm at CP 1465. It's easy with all the sources of boosted levelling that ZoS is throwing at every player. To those whiners, I'm begging you guys to keep your mouths shut. Stop giving the Devs weird ideas.

Excactly this.
People whined before last patch that the need to grind to be able to play etc. Now you got what you wanted. Now it makes no difference if you got 300cp or 3000cp. Now you can enjoy the game without grinding.

Lmao who grinded like hell last event.

Sangwyne · April 2021

colossalvoids wrote: »

Going back to cp 1.0 but nerfed one next patch, as a plus earned exp will mean nothing yet again. 2 years in development lmao.

Can't wait for CP 3.0! Passives are now just penalties like the ones currently on armor, and you can take up to 4 slotted stars in order to get rid of the penalties you dislike the most! Everyone starts at CP 0 and needs to work their way up to CP 16000, but don't worry, there's no functional difference between CP 0 and 16000, everyone just sucks. Equality through mediocrity!

ZOS has embraced this whole "horizontal progression" shtick a bit too much IMO. Sure, not having to hit CP 3600 to be competitive in trials and PvP is all well and good, but when there's no reason to progress, there's likewise no reason to keep playing the game for a lot of people. I don't necessarily want this game to be an ever-turning treadmill like WOW where you have to farm for the highest item level on every last horse shoe gem socket or whatever each patch, but vertical progression isn't this awful concept that ZOS made it out to be; I like having my playtime actually mean something.

virtus753 · April 2021

MoreTune wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

Currently on Live servers. You need about 1175-1200 cp for ALL damage (blue) CP. this includes all passives and all 4 slottables.

Question: on PTS with them cutting the amount of passive CP in half. How much CP do you need for all damage passives and slottables? I’m assuming it’s much less than 1200 now ?

ZOS quoted 1560 as the maximum for vertical progression in the patch notes. That includes more than damage, though.

They don't seem to be touching slottables, so that's still 4x50 = 200 in blue alone for that (600 total CP).

The passives will be at 2 stages apiece, so:

20 for Precision
20 for Tireless Discipline/Eldritch Insight
20 for Blessed
20 for Quick Recovery
20 for Hardy
20 for Elemental "Defender" (apparently no one at ZOS got the memo that they renamed this to Elemental Aegis)
20 for Preparation
20 for Piercing
still 40 + 30 for Battle Mastery/Flawless Ritual and Mighty/War Mage (according to ZOS' math)

For all damage-dealing passives in addition to the 4 slottables, in either stam or mag, with no healing or mitigation passives, you will need 330 blue CP, or 990 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), but only in either stam or mag, you will need 430 blue CP, or 1290 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), in both stam and mag, you will need 520 blue CP, or 1560 total (ZOS' quoted max)

WOW thanks for the quick maths!
So precision etc is maxed at 20 now right? Not 40 with diminished returns ?

That's the way the patch notes read and the way that ZOS' math works, but unfortunately we can't confirm it or test it until the PTS reopens. Gina said that would most likely be in the morning (eastern US time).

I confirmed that already. And yes, I know that it works that way.

So this is 100% confirmed on the PTS today?

990 CP maxes out CP related damage?
And passives cap at 20 meaning you can’t put more than 20 points into non-slottables ?

@Masel

The PTS is not yet up for the player base. Masel has access to other sources and can tell us what should be the case when we do get access.

remosito · April 2021

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

... it just seems like wilful misunderstanding at this point.

I'm glad I didn't pre-order. It's a shame, though, that the work of the artists, writers, etc... is regularly eclipsed by combat decisions like this.

it is a pity about the artsy ppl getting screwed by the numbers guys like that.

well hopefully they are bleeding enough players like you and me. and top level or two at numbets divisions gets vented into oblivion.

grumpy_pants95 · April 2021

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Still don’t know why ZOS does do what they did with CP1.0 and have diminishing returns in the stars and not static returns.

Example 10% gain with 5 stages.

Stage 1, 3% gain tor total 3%
Stage 2, 2% gain for total 5%
Stage 3, 2% gain for total 7%
Stage 4, 2 % gain for total 9%
Stage 5, 1% for the total of 10% gained.
Or
Stage 1, 4% gain tor total 4%
Stage 2, 2% gain for total 6%
Stage 3, 2% gain for total 8%
Stage 4, 1% gain for total 9%
Stage 5, 1% for the total of 10% gained.
Or
Stage 1, 5%
Stage 2, 2%
Stage 3, 1%
Stage 4, 1%
Stage 5, 1%

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS you didn’t fix the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Can you explain more what you mean with "Still don’t know why ZOS does do what they did with CP1.0 and have diminishing returns in the stars and not static returns" ?

I think the perks are really straight forward and just gives what it says.

- Example: You need 10 points to unlock each stage of a perk that has 5 stages = Total 50 points for maxed out Perk.
Each stage gives you 2% for 10 points with a total of 10% at 50 points which is max.

Stage 1 - 2% (10 Points)
Stage 2 - 4% (20 Points)
Stage 3 - 6% (30 Points)
Stage 4 - 8% (40 Points)
Stage 5 - 10% (50 Points)

As where in CP 1.0, you'd spend 10 points on a passive and get 4.74% which we all knew it'd be 4%, another 6 points to get to 6% and another 33 points to get up to 9.89% which is 9% and another 1-2 points for 10%.
With that being said all the hustle that we used to go through to get a somewhat fair percentage of a passive/perk in CP 1.0 by spending an unreasonable amount of CP SP only to reach 15% or 18% or whatever.

munster1404 · April 2021

Kurat wrote: »

munster1404 wrote: »

I detest whiners who keep grumbling about the CP grind. The consequence of such selfish mumblings push the Devs to raise the bar for everyone else. Sure the good players will say they are fine with the changes or the content creators will wax lyrical about the good behind such unfun nerfs. But then again who will complain and jeopardize their source of revenue?

At no point was I ever discouraged about my lack of CPs, knowing fully that MMOs are natural time sinks. I just gain my CPs via the gazillion channels that the Devs provided players to boost their levelling such as enlightenment, XP potions/scrolls and the double XP events which seem to pop up every 2 months or so. Earning 5 to 7 CPs PER WEEK is straight forward enough by simply logging in, doing crafting writs and pick up a couple of dailies. And I can earn up to 10 CPs if I have a XP scroll/potion activated 24/7.

For context, I was at CP 1295 in November, now I'm at CP 1465. It's easy with all the sources of boosted levelling that ZoS is throwing at every player. To those whiners, I'm begging you guys to keep your mouths shut. Stop giving the Devs weird ideas.

Excactly this.
People whined before last patch that the need to grind to be able to play etc. Now you got what you wanted. Now it makes no difference if you got 300cp or 3000cp. Now you can enjoy the game without grinding.

Lmao who grinded like hell last event.

To follow up, I gained another 2 CPs just a short while ago by mopping up side quests with an alt and handing in 2 master crafting writs. It's so frigging simple to gain CPs. You don't need to grind Skyreach or Blackrose prison. People who keep complaining about the grind is simply ignoring that MMOs are mostly time sinks. Players incessantly crying for more horizontal progression already got what they need but get a perverse enjoyment to spoil the fun for everyone else.

munster1404 · April 2021

Avoranti wrote: »

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

... and close the gap a bit between lower CP and max CP people.

There 100% should be a gap between lower cp and max cp players. Punishing players who put in time to level their character to high level cp all because some casual low level players didn’t or couldn’t is wrong. Players who actually put in time (and money, xp scrolls) to get their characters more cp optimized shouldn’t be punished for doing so. Characters of higher cp levels 100% should be doing more damage, crit and have better mitigation than someone of lower cp. Thats the reward for putting in time leveling on the game.

But because of this, I’m now stuck as a cp1350 player in pug groups with cp 200 players that have horrible dps or understanding of mechanics OR are queued as the wrong role and ruining everyone’s experience. In my opinion, these changes are just creating a more toxic environment.

I understand bringing magicka and stamina characters of similar cp level more in-line with one another. Closing the dps gap. But not lower cp players and high cp players. If this is the case then what’s the point in leveling beyond cp160?

^^^ Exactly.

Vertical progression makes it fun for the silent majority. Like CRPGs, stats improve by PUTTING POINTS into them. And higher CP levels should be able to make more of an impact than lower CP ones.

TwinLamps · April 2021

From what we saw so far, update 31 would possibly introduce penalties for players over 1000 cp.
Or there will be limit to how many passives we can use, something like only 4 per tree or so.

JustACasualTemplar · April 2021

Ok, i am trying to find any reason to even wish getting more CP, but nope, can't think of any.

colossalvoids · April 2021

TwinLamps wrote: »

From what we saw so far, update 31 would possibly introduce penalties for players over 1000 cp.
Or there will be limit to how many passives we can use, something like only 4 per tree or so.

When you reach cp1000 there's a special event unlocked, where you get ambushed by 3 short wood elves in a dovakhin outfits beating you up and taking 25% of your gold earned. This even can occur every new cp point gained. There is no cooldown.

ectoplasmicninja · April 2021

Higher CP players should be stronger than lower CP, as well as have more horizontal progression options. I don't disagree with that, I just think the gap is too big. They've just made it smaller, yes, but they also made all of us weaker in the process and I didn't see anyone asking for that.

The goals just seem conflicting - you want to nerf the higher end players because they can get the hardmode no death speedruns the moment new content comes out, but also somehow make harder content more accessible to lower end players...by nerfing everyone? Then after a year nerf the new dungeons so they're easier?

Frostvault is a good example. The laser boss was a sticking point for many, but now you can dodge and jump the laser. Is it that this dungeon was "too hard" to start with or is "make old content easier" an actual developmental strategy?

DropDeadGorgeous · April 2021

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

It kind of reminds me of when the bear was the only ult wardens ever used, so wardens said "we want to have the option to use other ults", explained that they meant "make other ults more viable", and then ZOS was like "we heard you wanted to use other ults so we nerfed the bear so you can do that now, you're welcome".

:'(

Hotdog_23 · April 2021

grumpy_pants95 wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Still don’t know why ZOS does do what they did with CP1.0 and have diminishing returns in the stars and not static returns.

Example 10% gain with 5 stages.

Stage 1, 3% gain tor total 3%
Stage 2, 2% gain for total 5%
Stage 3, 2% gain for total 7%
Stage 4, 2 % gain for total 9%
Stage 5, 1% for the total of 10% gained.
Or
Stage 1, 4% gain tor total 4%
Stage 2, 2% gain for total 6%
Stage 3, 2% gain for total 8%
Stage 4, 1% gain for total 9%
Stage 5, 1% for the total of 10% gained.
Or
Stage 1, 5%
Stage 2, 2%
Stage 3, 1%
Stage 4, 1%
Stage 5, 1%

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS you didn’t fix the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Can you explain more what you mean with "Still don’t know why ZOS does do what they did with CP1.0 and have diminishing returns in the stars and not static returns" ?

I think the perks are really straight forward and just gives what it says.

- Example: You need 10 points to unlock each stage of a perk that has 5 stages = Total 50 points for maxed out Perk.
Each stage gives you 2% for 10 points with a total of 10% at 50 points which is max.

Stage 1 - 2% (10 Points)
Stage 2 - 4% (20 Points)
Stage 3 - 6% (30 Points)
Stage 4 - 8% (40 Points)
Stage 5 - 10% (50 Points)

As where in CP 1.0, you'd spend 10 points on a passive and get 4.74% which we all knew it'd be 4%, another 6 points to get to 6% and another 33 points to get up to 9.89% which is 9% and another 1-2 points for 10%.
With that being said all the hustle that we used to go through to get a somewhat fair percentage of a passive/perk in CP 1.0 by spending an unreasonable amount of CP SP only to reach 15% or 18% or whatever.

The CP stars in CP1.0 where more front loaded. The more you put into them at the beginning the more return you got. On the back end it took a lot more CP to get only a little return. Example First 75 CP would give you either 14% extra stamina recovery. The next 25 CP would only give you 1% more. Like the fixed percentage return they just need to adjust the values and not punish higher cp players for playing the game more and longer.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS you didn’t fix the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

hands0medevil · April 2021

TwinLamps wrote: »

From what we saw so far, update 31 would possibly introduce penalties for players over 1000 cp.
Or there will be limit to how many passives we can use, something like only 4 per tree or so.

I've heard once you reach max cp you are nerfed back to cp lvl 1

JustACasualTemplar · April 2021

Some say they took away the boulder from Sisyphus. They've replaced it with a gaming rig that only runs ESO.

ectoplasmicninja · April 2021

The green tree micromanagement is also still unfun. I don't want to slot my harvesting and speed perks, see a fishing hole, swap out some, fish, swap them back, see a travelling merchant, swap in the repair perk, repair, swap it back out - it's just tedious. I tried it for a bit and kept forgetting, so what I've ended up doing is just leaving the harvesting perks in permanently, which means I'm not actually benefiting from any of the other slottables and all my incoming green CP is useless to me.

Games need to find a balance of challenge and fun, and opening a menu to drag icons around depending on what activity I'm doing is neither challenging nor fun, it's just annoying. Particularly because my normal regular gameplay will often involve me running from A to B, spotting a chest, grabbing some nodes, fishing at a hole, repairing at a wandering merchant, running past a crafting station and stopping to decon some stuff to clear my inventory etc all in one smooth activity...but if I want to actually make use of my perks that activity is now no longer smooth.

Finedaible · April 2021

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

The green tree micromanagement is also still unfun. I don't want to slot my harvesting and speed perks, see a fishing hole, swap out some, fish, swap them back, see a travelling merchant, swap in the repair perk, repair, swap it back out - it's just tedious. I tried it for a bit and kept forgetting, so what I've ended up doing is just leaving the harvesting perks in permanently, which means I'm not actually benefiting from any of the other slottables and all my incoming green CP is useless to me.

Games need to find a balance of challenge and fun, and opening a menu to drag icons around depending on what activity I'm doing is neither challenging nor fun, it's just annoying. Particularly because my normal regular gameplay will often involve me running from A to B, spotting a chest, grabbing some nodes, fishing at a hole, repairing at a wandering merchant, running past a crafting station and stopping to decon some stuff to clear my inventory etc all in one smooth activity...but if I want to actually make use of my perks that activity is now no longer smooth.

It's like they designed green tree to be as non-streamlined as possible, like how most other UI actions. Must be some metric of success they have in place where there must be x screens with y prompts, drag-and-drops, and a gazillion confirmations for no reason. People just want to play the game, not play the UI menus.

Sju · April 2021

Finedaible wrote: »

Wtf man. How are character's supposed to reach pen in arenas now? I literally just gilded out some gear which barely reaches an optimal critical rating and they pull this bs.

They stated a while back that there would be more changes to crit, pretty sure it was in that combat change thread. Stop blaming them if you didn't read thoroughly. We go through so many changes, this complaint about golding out gear and being "screwed" is getting old.

Masel · April 2021

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

The green tree micromanagement is also still unfun. I don't want to slot my harvesting and speed perks, see a fishing hole, swap out some, fish, swap them back, see a travelling merchant, swap in the repair perk, repair, swap it back out - it's just tedious. I tried it for a bit and kept forgetting, so what I've ended up doing is just leaving the harvesting perks in permanently, which means I'm not actually benefiting from any of the other slottables and all my incoming green CP is useless to me.

Games need to find a balance of challenge and fun, and opening a menu to drag icons around depending on what activity I'm doing is neither challenging nor fun, it's just annoying. Particularly because my normal regular gameplay will often involve me running from A to B, spotting a chest, grabbing some nodes, fishing at a hole, repairing at a wandering merchant, running past a crafting station and stopping to decon some stuff to clear my inventory etc all in one smooth activity...but if I want to actually make use of my perks that activity is now no longer smooth.

Perhaps this is something for you (if you are on PC):

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2951-JackofallTrades.html

Guildmate made a little something for those situations.

npuk · April 2021

Avoranti wrote: »

There 100% should be a gap between lower cp and max cp players. Punishing players who put in time to level their character to high level cp all because some casual low level players didn’t or couldn’t is wrong. Players who actually put in time (and money, xp scrolls) to get their characters more cp optimized shouldn’t be punished for doing so. Characters of higher cp levels 100% should be doing more damage, crit and have better mitigation than someone of lower cp. Thats the reward for putting in time leveling on the game.

I couldn't agree more, U29 felt like a step in the right direction with CP 2.0, but the proposed changes in U30 is a slap in the face for higher CP players with these changes and the companion system that is suitable for use for end game content.

ectoplasmicninja · April 2021

Masel wrote: »

Perhaps this is something for you (if you are on PC):

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2951-JackofallTrades.html

Guildmate made a little something for those situations.

I am on PC, I'll check that out. I remember when it was in the making but then they instituted the cooldown on swapping. It's a shame we have to rely so heavily on addons to cut down on frustration, because other platforms don't have access to such things. I see they're now adding some addon functionality natively, like action duration timers and pointing you to the right crafting station for master writs, which is awesome, but hopefully we don't have to wait six years for them to make all the green actives passive and call it a QOL improvement.

Shantu · April 2021

It's unnerving how one update continues to introduce great ideas that can be smashed to pieces with a sledgehammer in the next update and now be considered new great ideas.

jaws343 · April 2021

I am not sure why anyone is surprised by the nerfs. They straight up said that they didn't reach the desired scale of power in the initial CP implementation and would be adjusting it further to reign DPS in. They told us this. And here we are, they did exactly what they said they would.