Clarity on CP changes please!

OneWingedAnge7

With the changes to cp and various stars going from 4 stages to 2 etc. Does this mean that precision will only give 700 pen at max or will it still give 1400 but just require less cp for this?

So will it still cost 50cp to gain only 700 pen, or is it now 25cp to gain 1400 pen. ??

RogueShark

I'm pretty sure it's 25 cp to hit 700 pen now.

Susurrus

RogueShark wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's 25 cp to hit 700 pen now.

Lame

Ellimist_Entreri

The number of stages are being reduced, values granted are not being adjusted:

Masel wrote: »

This is false. They've just taken out stages, cutting power in half.(...)

See posts 25 & 28 in the following thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570048/am-i-understanding-the-combat-preview-correctly/p1

Masel

Ellimist_Entreri wrote: »

The number of stages are being reduced, values granted are not being adjusted:

Masel wrote: »

This is false. They've just taken out stages, cutting power in half.(...)

See posts 25 & 28 in the following thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570048/am-i-understanding-the-combat-preview-correctly/p1

Values granted per stage are not adjusted. So yes, we would go from 1400 to 700 pen at stage 2, and no further.

Finedaible

Wtf man. How are character's supposed to reach pen in arenas now? I literally just gilded out some gear which barely reaches an optimal critical rating and they pull this bs.

nenekotanb16_ESO

This is a bad step indeed. You have nice chunky bonuses that feel impactful, like 8% sprint, etc. and rather than keeping that maximum and making it two steps, they are all small numbers now.

OneWingedAnge7

I was sincerely hoping that they would just reduce the amount of cp required to reach the 'cap' but not actually reduce that cap. Seems like just another unwanted nerf and kick in the balls to be fair.
Going to be great trying to find even more pen as a stam dd now...

honey_badger82

Look how awesome the new CP 2.0 is! Wait.. I mean just the green tree is kinda cool. The rest is literally just meh now. Congrats ZoS there is now literally 0 need for me to further grind CP as the bonuses are so minimal, so minuscule, so not worth the effort for anyone but min maxers. For just 25 points (equivalent to 75cp levels) You get 1/2 a line of pen! But wait there's more! For just 25 more points (75 more levels) you can get 1.5% higher crit chance!

ectoplasmicninja

Since CP 2.0 dropped, people have been arguing for front-loading of bonuses or for greater horizontal progression in order to lower the ceiling and close the gap a bit between lower CP and max CP people. I think most folks have been pretty clear on that - give me the same 8% sprint but in 20 points instead of 32, or whatever. This is an actual power nerf in the guise of "well you said you wanted less vertical progression" and it just seems like wilful misunderstanding at this point.

lillybit

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

Since CP 2.0 dropped, people have been arguing for front-loading of bonuses or for greater horizontal progression in order to lower the ceiling and close the gap a bit between lower CP and max CP people. I think most folks have been pretty clear on that - give me the same 8% sprint but in 20 points instead of 32, or whatever. This is an actual power nerf in the guise of "well you said you wanted less vertical progression" and it just seems like wilful misunderstanding at this point.

Absolutely agree. Nobody was complaining about too much power from passives, just that they were too expensive. The top end players with their perfect rotations will be fine, this will just hit the average ones who need the extra help of CP bonuses

iksde

lillybit wrote: »

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

Since CP 2.0 dropped, people have been arguing for front-loading of bonuses or for greater horizontal progression in order to lower the ceiling and close the gap a bit between lower CP and max CP people. I think most folks have been pretty clear on that - give me the same 8% sprint but in 20 points instead of 32, or whatever. This is an actual power nerf in the guise of "well you said you wanted less vertical progression" and it just seems like wilful misunderstanding at this point.

Absolutely agree. Nobody was complaining about too much power from passives, just that they were too expensive. The top end players with their perfect rotations will be fine, this will just hit the average ones who need the extra help of CP bonuses

again :v

Merforum

The problem is that they think CP system is why the elitist are over performing when it has very little to nothing to do with it. And anything that nerfs everyone equally will never close any gaps.

I will give them big credit that after years of pointing it out they have finally realized that insane crit is one of the big problems, just hope they lower it down to be MAX 50% cap, then it will be good but they're on the right track.

Other biggest problem in power gap is LA anim cancelling won't go into it because many threads already but this is the single biggest issue right now.

And other issues pertain to just NOT have CAPS on stuff. Which with the massive nerf to proc sets looks like they're going in WRONG direction. instead of allowing and rewarding people for stacking massively into one thing like dmg, stam etc, they should be putting hard caps on those. Then people can make more diverse builds and this can instantly eliminate a lot of exploiting sets/mechs/etc that people figure out. For instance if Stat max was 40K and dmg was 4K, that would proper balance many aspects of game instantly.

Wuuffyy

Merforum wrote: »

The problem is that they think CP system is why the elitist are over performing when it has very little to nothing to do with it. And anything that nerfs everyone equally will never close any gaps.

I will give them big credit that after years of pointing it out they have finally realized that insane crit is one of the big problems, just hope they lower it down to be MAX 50% cap, then it will be good but they're on the right track.

Other biggest problem in power gap is LA anim cancelling won't go into it because many threads already but this is the single biggest issue right now.

And other issues pertain to just NOT have CAPS on stuff. Which with the massive nerf to proc sets looks like they're going in WRONG direction. instead of allowing and rewarding people for stacking massively into one thing like dmg, stam etc, they should be putting hard caps on those. Then people can make more diverse builds and this can instantly eliminate a lot of exploiting sets/mechs/etc that people figure out. For instance if Stat max was 40K and dmg was 4K, that would proper balance many aspects of game instantly.

So crit just shouldn’t exist in your opinion?

hackdrag0n

There is actually a point where more weapon or spell damage becomes more beneficial than more crit though so I'm not sure why it needs more nerfing. If crit were flat out better medusa sorrow would be stronger than sorrow siroria on the dummy but it's not.

I do agree it's not CP that's making top guilds so far ahead of most. It's player skill and the ability to calculate the optimal trial composition for maximum damage, without having to worry about survivability because they already know the content so well. They can't fix this easily because every time a set or class gets nerfed the l33ts will just sit down and work out a new way to break the game.

SirLeeMinion

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

... it just seems like wilful misunderstanding at this point.

I'm glad I didn't pre-order. It's a shame, though, that the work of the artists, writers, etc... is regularly eclipsed by combat decisions like this.

ectoplasmicninja

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

I'm glad I didn't pre-order. It's a shame, though, that the work of the artists, writers, etc... is regularly eclipsed by combat decisions like this.

It kind of reminds me of when the bear was the only ult wardens ever used, so wardens said "we want to have the option to use other ults", explained that they meant "make other ults more viable", and then ZOS was like "we heard you wanted to use other ults so we nerfed the bear so you can do that now, you're welcome".

I did pre-order, as I have for every expansion since Morrowind. I play every day and have for four years. I'm closing in on CP1400 (I have an alt problem or this would be much higher). I am pretty casual in my play difficulty-wise, so this won't super affect me for the most part, but when I do go into vDLCs I do not feel overpowered by any means. I do not deal the damage I used to and I have way less mitigation and I feel it.

More nerfs might keep me out of vDLCs entirely. They said they want more content to be more accessible, and many vDLCs have a woefully low completion rate. Yet the road they seem to be going down is: nerf players, nerf less skilled players harder, then later on nerf dungeons so that weaker people can complete them. That...doesn't seem ideal to me. ZOS has to be seeing something I'm not.

Avoranti

I don’t know who these players are that allegedly complained about progression. Haven’t talked to a single one on console and from social media it seems like nearly everyone (not all) who post, are not happy.

Kurat

Only passive stars got nerfed. Slottables are still the same. Most of the dps boost comes from them. So parsing on 21 mil and raiding with optimized groups there's hardly no difference, maybe 1% nerf. No need to panic.

honey_badger82

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

ectoplasmicninja wrote: »

... it just seems like wilful misunderstanding at this point.

I'm glad I didn't pre-order. It's a shame, though, that the work of the artists, writers, etc... is regularly eclipsed by combat decisions like this.

I usually pre order right away. This time I didn't and I am so glad. [snip] I will watch the patch notes and if they actually nerf the CP system into complete uselessness as they are showing so far... well I am done and for sure will not purchase the chapter. And since my son plays what I play he is done too. That's 2 less paying players ZoS will need to worry about.

[Edited tore remove Inappropriate Content]

YandereGirlfriend

Kurat wrote: »

Only passive stars got nerfed. Slottables are still the same. Most of the dps boost comes from them. So parsing on 21 mil and raiding with optimized groups there's hardly no difference, maybe 1% nerf. No need to panic.

Yes, but everyone is still taking all the same DPS stars and builds for tank and healers are also pretty much all the same.

We were promised horizontal progression and having tons of competing build options but in reality it's just the same old thing just in a different constellation.

Why are the Spell/Weapon Damage stars so pitifully weak in CP 2.0? Why are the Max Stat stars similarly mediocre? Nobody serious about doing damage would ever consider those as options over Critical Damage and Single-Target, etc. so ZOS has utterly failed at their stated objective.

redspecter23

Kurat wrote: »

Only passive stars got nerfed. Slottables are still the same. Most of the dps boost comes from them. So parsing on 21 mil and raiding with optimized groups there's hardly no difference, maybe 1% nerf. No need to panic.

If the difference is that small than why even nerf it to begin with? Why cause this much negativity over 1%? Wouldn't it be better from a public relations standpoint to let players have that 1%? Is 1% really, honestly overpowering us so much they need to strip it away in such a negative way? It feels like a petty nerf just to cause drama at that point.

MoreTune

Currently on Live servers. You need about 1175-1200 cp for ALL damage (blue) CP. this includes all passives and all 4 slottables.

Question: on PTS with them cutting the amount of passive CP in half. How much CP do you need for all damage passives and slottables? I’m assuming it’s much less than 1200 now ?

Dark_Lord_Kuro

All off that because somde people arent cappable of playing if they arent in the optimal set up NOW!

virtus753

MoreTune wrote: »

Currently on Live servers. You need about 1175-1200 cp for ALL damage (blue) CP. this includes all passives and all 4 slottables.

Question: on PTS with them cutting the amount of passive CP in half. How much CP do you need for all damage passives and slottables? I’m assuming it’s much less than 1200 now ?

ZOS quoted 1560 as the maximum for vertical progression in the patch notes. That includes more than damage, though.

They don't seem to be touching slottables, so that's still 4x50 = 200 in blue alone for that (600 total CP).

The passives will be at 2 stages apiece, so:

20 for Precision
20 for Tireless Discipline/Eldritch Insight
20 for Blessed
20 for Quick Recovery
20 for Hardy
20 for Elemental "Defender" (apparently no one at ZOS got the memo that they renamed this to Elemental Aegis)
20 for Preparation
20 for Piercing
still 40 + 30 for Battle Mastery/Flawless Ritual and Mighty/War Mage (according to ZOS' math)

For all damage-dealing passives in addition to the 4 slottables, in either stam or mag, with no healing or mitigation passives, you will need 330 blue CP, or 990 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), but only in either stam or mag, you will need 430 blue CP, or 1290 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), in both stam and mag, you will need 520 blue CP, or 1560 total (ZOS' quoted max)

MoreTune

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

Currently on Live servers. You need about 1175-1200 cp for ALL damage (blue) CP. this includes all passives and all 4 slottables.

Question: on PTS with them cutting the amount of passive CP in half. How much CP do you need for all damage passives and slottables? I’m assuming it’s much less than 1200 now ?

ZOS quoted 1560 as the maximum for vertical progression in the patch notes. That includes more than damage, though.

They don't seem to be touching slottables, so that's still 4x50 = 200 in blue alone for that (600 total CP).

The passives will be at 2 stages apiece, so:

20 for Precision
20 for Tireless Discipline/Eldritch Insight
20 for Blessed
20 for Quick Recovery
20 for Hardy
20 for Elemental "Defender" (apparently no one at ZOS got the memo that they renamed this to Elemental Aegis)
20 for Preparation
20 for Piercing
still 40 + 30 for Battle Mastery/Flawless Ritual and Mighty/War Mage (according to ZOS' math)

For all damage-dealing passives in addition to the 4 slottables, in either stam or mag, with no healing or mitigation passives, you will need 330 blue CP, or 990 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), but only in either stam or mag, you will need 430 blue CP, or 1290 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), in both stam and mag, you will need 520 blue CP, or 1560 total (ZOS' quoted max)

WOW thanks for the quick maths!
So precision etc is maxed at 20 now right? Not 40 with diminished returns ?

virtus753

MoreTune wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

Currently on Live servers. You need about 1175-1200 cp for ALL damage (blue) CP. this includes all passives and all 4 slottables.

Question: on PTS with them cutting the amount of passive CP in half. How much CP do you need for all damage passives and slottables? I’m assuming it’s much less than 1200 now ?

ZOS quoted 1560 as the maximum for vertical progression in the patch notes. That includes more than damage, though.

They don't seem to be touching slottables, so that's still 4x50 = 200 in blue alone for that (600 total CP).

The passives will be at 2 stages apiece, so:

20 for Precision
20 for Tireless Discipline/Eldritch Insight
20 for Blessed
20 for Quick Recovery
20 for Hardy
20 for Elemental "Defender" (apparently no one at ZOS got the memo that they renamed this to Elemental Aegis)
20 for Preparation
20 for Piercing
still 40 + 30 for Battle Mastery/Flawless Ritual and Mighty/War Mage (according to ZOS' math)

For all damage-dealing passives in addition to the 4 slottables, in either stam or mag, with no healing or mitigation passives, you will need 330 blue CP, or 990 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), but only in either stam or mag, you will need 430 blue CP, or 1290 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), in both stam and mag, you will need 520 blue CP, or 1560 total (ZOS' quoted max)

WOW thanks for the quick maths!
So precision etc is maxed at 20 now right? Not 40 with diminished returns ?

That's the way the patch notes read and the way that ZOS' math works, but unfortunately we can't confirm it or test it until the PTS reopens. Gina said that would most likely be in the morning (eastern US time).

Merforum

hackdrag0n wrote: »

There is actually a point where more weapon or spell damage becomes more beneficial than more crit though so I'm not sure why it needs more nerfing. If crit were flat out better medusa sorrow would be stronger than sorrow siroria on the dummy but it's not.

I do agree it's not CP that's making top guilds so far ahead of most. It's player skill and the ability to calculate the optimal trial composition for maximum damage, without having to worry about survivability because they already know the content so well. They can't fix this easily because every time a set or class gets nerfed the l33ts will just sit down and work out a new way to break the game.

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

So crit just shouldn’t exist in your opinion?

Remember my comment are based on ZOS repeatedly writing they want to lower then 'ceiling' and I have said for a long time that Crit chnc/dmg in this game have always been way overtuned, in every other game I can think of crit chance is something HARD to ATTAIN and never allowed to be 100%, not even 50%. Also stat stacking is an issue.

But luckily there instead of trying to tweak 100s of sets, skills, stats, etc, there is a simple fix, IMPLEMENT CAPS. This way even if someone finds some secret combination of stuff that is way overpowered it will still only do X amount of whatever they want to have any control over. Kind of like resistance is.

Quickest fix is cap DPS on bosses, for instance the can take X damage in a second and anything over that value they just absorb, this way ZOS will have a perfect way to design content and not making it impossible for some while easy for others.

Then if they want even more control, they can add Caps on all stats, dmg, heal, etc. As example they currently put cap on shield skill of 50% max health but then turn around and let someone cast TWO shield skills or use proc sets or get shield from team etc, kif they just had CAP that said any shield per second on anyone could only be 50% of their max health, problem solved. It is actually pretty simple and solves most of issue with least work. Then instead of spending so much time on this they could focus on lag and bug fixes.

stefj68

well we said it was too much vertical progression on the CP system... instead of lowering cost of those stars by 33-50% no they decide to remove 1-2 ranks...

stamina dps have a huge time reaching penetration... and now even more! we will have all to use maces, mauls or sharpened instead of precise

sure it would have been to hard to rebalance 4 step costing 10 per ranks... 40cp totals... could have been replace with 4 steps costing 7 per ranks for 28cp

but that will required to use some....

Fruity_Ninja

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler guys, lowering our power even further only creates less incentive for us to invest in the new CP system. Great idea to lower CP required to get all the passives, but to just nerf us further isn’t what the playerbase was asking for.

The biggest issue lies in our access to pen and crit for damage, and in our damage reduction. The move from CP1.0 to CP2.0 already nerfed us in these areas, and rightfully so. Further nerfs are just taking it a step too far, and harder PVE content even harder to complete for the majority of the playerbase. It also make survival harder in PVP (in an already bursty meta), and makes PVE tanking harder and less attractive of a role.

Masel

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

Currently on Live servers. You need about 1175-1200 cp for ALL damage (blue) CP. this includes all passives and all 4 slottables.

Question: on PTS with them cutting the amount of passive CP in half. How much CP do you need for all damage passives and slottables? I’m assuming it’s much less than 1200 now ?

ZOS quoted 1560 as the maximum for vertical progression in the patch notes. That includes more than damage, though.

They don't seem to be touching slottables, so that's still 4x50 = 200 in blue alone for that (600 total CP).

The passives will be at 2 stages apiece, so:

20 for Precision
20 for Tireless Discipline/Eldritch Insight
20 for Blessed
20 for Quick Recovery
20 for Hardy
20 for Elemental "Defender" (apparently no one at ZOS got the memo that they renamed this to Elemental Aegis)
20 for Preparation
20 for Piercing
still 40 + 30 for Battle Mastery/Flawless Ritual and Mighty/War Mage (according to ZOS' math)

For all damage-dealing passives in addition to the 4 slottables, in either stam or mag, with no healing or mitigation passives, you will need 330 blue CP, or 990 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), but only in either stam or mag, you will need 430 blue CP, or 1290 total

For all passives with the 4 slottables (including healing and mitigation), in both stam and mag, you will need 520 blue CP, or 1560 total (ZOS' quoted max)

WOW thanks for the quick maths!
So precision etc is maxed at 20 now right? Not 40 with diminished returns ?

That's the way the patch notes read and the way that ZOS' math works, but unfortunately we can't confirm it or test it until the PTS reopens. Gina said that would most likely be in the morning (eastern US time).

I confirmed that already. And yes, I know that it works that way.