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Light attacks and abilities damage
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Allright. I think we can close this thread now that we're at that point again.0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
Neither CMX is inaccurate or light attack dmg broken. Both are working as intended. There is many reasons as for why Your light attacks are doing 6k fmh only. The question is when You light attacks are doing 6k dmg how much dmg usually other abilities are doing ?0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭What about the real issue with light attacks?
50% of my mouse clicks is only resulting in 20% of my damage. It’s clearly unbalanced with other skills.
Yeah but all that damage is free as in doesn't cost stats. And if you are using LA exploit it is 20% damage that happens in SAME amount of time as other 80%, meaning FREE 20% DPS.
But my original question remains, how is a LA that should be about 1.3K per attack per second able to reach 20K per second? Is CMX erroneous or is something else even worse than LA exploit going on?0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IMO, there's less of a problem with LA damage or with weaving itself and more an issue that they keep messing with targeting, making it less and less forgiving in a freakin' online game where latency is a given in any dang fight, meaning single-target attacks like light attacks result with your character just standing there like an idiot instead of attacking even though the aim is perfect on your screen.
It's weird that I don't really see anyone complaining about targeting on this forum considering how much complaining there is about it on my guild discords."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭CristyRazvan wrote: »BrownChicken wrote: »
if you say about 21kk atro, then 50k is very small.It is possible to do 45-50k with no LA.
It is no problem to do 40K on 800+cp.
What about 70k with 2 DoT abilities and heavy attack spam (basically doable with one hand) ?
Teach me, master! And i am not kidding or making fun of what you've said, i really need help improving my DPS due to physical and technological constrains, as detailed below.
As a magplar with ping constantly at 200+ and the main spammable being the usual Templar class skill Puncturing Sweeps, i long have abandoned the idea of LA weaving and mostly HA weave every few attacks, with better results than expected, i must admit.
My hands ar far from fast and nimble, i have carpal tunnel issues and my hardware and ping are far from optimal, so yes, i cannot LA weave for the life of me, especially when using Puncturing Sweeps, a skill notorious for the LA weaving difficulty.
I use a rotation with 2 aoe/dots, sweeps and HA from my lightning staff for splash damage, off-balance and sustain, switching to a back bar with fire staff and execution/interrupt skills for when the boss remains alone with no adds.
My technique is noobish at best, the DPS i see on my screen is abysmal, but for some reason no matter the group i run or pug with at the end of the fight i almost always score more than 50% of the damage dealt to the big targets and more than 70% for mobs from the damage dealt by the entire group, no matter how good my team mates are. This is according to CMX.
As per CMX and Trial Dummy parses, LA weaving is indeed fenomenal, but my math fails to explain how in real combat situations like dungeons my character that barely gets to 40k on a trial dummy can hoard more than 50% of the damage done while in the same group with people i know for sure they do more than 70k DPS on the same Trial Dummy in parses.
Is it maybe that the whole "CMX and LA weave is god" ideology deeply flawed?
Here is an example from magsorc but similar setups are possible to copy on different classes with more or less close results. In this particular parse rotation was basically la+blockade->swap->barbed trap-> 3xheavy attack->swap and repeat. Setus in this particular parse is 5x infaible aether 5x undaunted unwearer (front bar) maelstrom staff on back bar and 2x zaan.
As for Your statement about getting 50-70% of group DPS with Your as You call it "noobish" rotation I guess it's related to groups You're running with. I am also very often meeting teams where I am doing sometimes above 85% DPS when queued as a tank.Edited by axi on April 8, 2021 8:57PM2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
BTW ZOS knows LA is a big problem that is why they did that test with removing the damage and adding sustain. But that was too drastic, they should have just made the LA damage really low and give a little sustain, and medium attack like double of both damage and sustain, with heavy getting double again of both. Since med/heavy have a counter in PVP but light does not, it is just cheese essentially. Even in PVE 20% LA is insane. Doing a heavy attack in between each skill should give about 20% DPS not LA.
I completely agree with you that your changes are more along the lines of what ZOS should have tried. And I hope eventually they will try again, but I'm not holding my breath. LA weaving should have been removed back when the game released, but it wasn't. Now it's one of the pieces that builds and rotations are built upon, and certain people consider being good at it akin to... apparently getting into the NBA. No matter which changes happen to LA, the hardcore players will dislike them. The top players do not want the dps gap to become smaller.
Yeah the initial problem as far as damage has always been the light attack exploit and crit damage being SO high. In every other game I can think of crit chance/dmg is maxxed out at like 50%, but in this game you could get both over 100%. I think they are trying to fix it. But not there yet. And in PVE it's not as big an issue because I don't give a *** about leader boards and achievements.
But in PVP LA exploit among others and crit (plus insane execute) has made it totally toxic for a long time. Literally the first person who pushes dawnbreaker, LA, dizzy, LA exec wins. There is NO skill involved because even the so-called expert say it is all muscle memory so push same buttons over and over until you kill someone. PVE rotation is similarly braindead, I find tanking and even healing infinitely more rewarding because you have to have situational awareness and actually do different stuff, rather than mash the same buttons over and over.
Fortunately I think ZOS knows this is a problem but only thinks it is high end PVE and is trying to figure out a way to fix that without affecting PVP, but it is the exact same problem in BOTH and same fix. Cap crit at 50%, reduce damage of LA or add to GCD.
Going further I think they actually need to do something about roll dodge being so powerful. A tank in vet content with maxxed out block should be able to block and/or interrupt most big boss attacks but NOT ROLL being the only option. And rolling from an AOE should still give a % of damage to person unless they have completely exited area. And rolling thru enemies should not be allowed at all.
I can remember trying to roll thru bosses used to knock you off balance (like interrupting heavy), they should have never changed that but add players too. It is stupid that in PVP you can literally run right thru enemy players, that is stupid and allows for massive exploits where people run behind a door/tree/post, then you chase and they run right through you, making it impossible to target them. At a min graphics should collide with enemies, and trying to roll should maybe knock both people down or something logical. Similar exploit is jumping up and down all the time so people can't target you, which is broken.
It is sad that there are so many tactical exploits in this game that give people willing to use them such an extreme advantage over people not willing or capable to use them, and that is what is called 'top tier' and skillful. Good news is it can be fixed but will ZOS fix it?
Are you labeling Light Attack weaving as "Light Attack exploit"? Or is there an actual known exploit involving Light Attacks?
Light attack weaving is doing a light attack in between each skill to get extra damage and ulty (and maybe some sustain if they bring that back) and allowing system to fully display animations.
Light attack exploit is doing the LA weaving in an exploitable window that cancels animations but gives full benefit of LA plus other attack in same GCD. That is the definition of an exploit, using unintended programming errors to your benefit.
Exploits like this make is so devs don't know how hard to make dungeons because certain people will have artificially high DPS while most people won't. So people can skip mechanics and make boss fights too easy for exploiters and too hard for everyone else.
Everyone including ZOS knows this is a problem, so don't pretend like people who point this out are crazy. Either ZOS will fix it or they won't. But I think what they will do is give us 20K DPS companions and call it a day, which is fine with me too.
So what you are referring to as an "exploit" is what the rest of us call animation canceling, or LA cancelling...am I understanding you correctly there?Edited by Goregrinder on April 8, 2021 9:16PM1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭CristyRazvan wrote: »BrownChicken wrote: »
if you say about 21kk atro, then 50k is very small.It is possible to do 45-50k with no LA.
It is no problem to do 40K on 800+cp.
What about 70k with 2 DoT abilities and heavy attack spam (basically doable with one hand) ?
Teach me, master! And i am not kidding or making fun of what you've said, i really need help improving my DPS due to physical and technological constrains, as detailed below.
As a magplar with ping constantly at 200+ and the main spammable being the usual Templar class skill Puncturing Sweeps, i long have abandoned the idea of LA weaving and mostly HA weave every few attacks, with better results than expected, i must admit.
My hands ar far from fast and nimble, i have carpal tunnel issues and my hardware and ping are far from optimal, so yes, i cannot LA weave for the life of me, especially when using Puncturing Sweeps, a skill notorious for the LA weaving difficulty.
I use a rotation with 2 aoe/dots, sweeps and HA from my lightning staff for splash damage, off-balance and sustain, switching to a back bar with fire staff and execution/interrupt skills for when the boss remains alone with no adds.
My technique is noobish at best, the DPS i see on my screen is abysmal, but for some reason no matter the group i run or pug with at the end of the fight i almost always score more than 50% of the damage dealt to the big targets and more than 70% for mobs from the damage dealt by the entire group, no matter how good my team mates are. This is according to CMX.
As per CMX and Trial Dummy parses, LA weaving is indeed fenomenal, but my math fails to explain how in real combat situations like dungeons my character that barely gets to 40k on a trial dummy can hoard more than 50% of the damage done while in the same group with people i know for sure they do more than 70k DPS on the same Trial Dummy in parses.
Is it maybe that the whole "CMX and LA weave is god" ideology deeply flawed?
You can switch to undaunted sets with mailstrom staff back, to create pretty good heavy attack build. Best on DK with 40% heavy bonus. Also for DK use elfbane plus some aoes/heavy to get good damage.
I have noticed the same as you people who get high parses on trial dummy can't do much in actual content. And even ones who do good damage are so focused on their rotation, they have no situational awareness to rez someone, get behind a pillar during boss attack or whatever,. These people who grind XP, parse dummies, bypass dungeon mechs are a nightmare when it comes to any difficult content because they actually have no clue.
Instead of these idiotic dummy parses, people should be posting ACTUAL BOSS FIGHT STATS. Let's see how much DPS they are ACTUALLY doing in an actual dungeon/trial.3 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »IMO, there's less of a problem with LA damage or with weaving itself and more an issue that they keep messing with targeting, making it less and less forgiving in a freakin' online game where latency is a given in any dang fight, meaning single-target attacks like light attacks result with your character just standing there like an idiot instead of attacking even though the aim is perfect on your screen.
It's weird that I don't really see anyone complaining about targeting on this forum considering how much complaining there is about it on my guild discords.
Yes I agree, targeting is absolutely broken. And they made it even worse with making single target skill greyed out when not targeted. I literally had to change all skills to aoe version because it is so insane to target anyone in PVP any more, with all the jump exploiting, pets, LOS issues, it is a complete disaster. Not to mention how people run around a corner, wind up a heavy, hit you through the wall, then run right thru you to other side and do it over and over. You can't target them at all, meanwhile they take your health away until dawnbreaker is ready then us same combo everyone uses over and over, DB, LA, Dzy, LA, Exe and you are dead. Then claim these exploits are skill.
I think the only thing worse than this style of play is the dudes that just sit back with bow and wait until anyone gets to 25% health then spam LA/PI until they are diead stealing every kill. They run away if anyone even looks at them from 28 Mtrs away. In every other game I have played these cheesy play styles are frowned up but in ESO PVP anything outside of this playstyle must be immediately nerf into ground and made unusable. All that being said, there are sign ZOS knows this is toxic and in order to make more money for 95% of more casual players may fix some of these issues.0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭
[Quoted post was memoved]
[snip] LA are not the only thing that could speed up your rotation and "cheat" (cause lets be honest, dmg from LA is nothing to compare to dmg you can get from skills and even if you will nerf it to 10%, it will be still source of advantage to those who know how to use it). You can also roll, you can block, you can swap weapons. Bah, HA is even more serious than LA because it gives you resorces while pressing skills, so my stamplar could jab things in eternity and he will not loss sustain.
Now, imagine we will turn ESO into, for example wow, giving every action a cooldown. Would you imagine how awful gameplay will become?
Oh, look, troll throw rock at me, but I cannot roll, or block, or interrupt him, because I just use an attack and need to wair 0.9 sec to take any action. No, I can only try to run out of AOE so it is so good that everyone running at the same speed. [snip]
Plus, looking at various YT channels dedicated ESO, weaving, animation cancelling & building rotation are probably the most important part of the game, giving people something they can aspire to. Because if you do not have experience from other games, you will not become good in one or two days. You need a time and dedication to develop your knowledge and skills to reach and break following tresholds. But once you will do it... I don't know how dev team, but I am totally enjoing! And can set to the next goal.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 9, 2021 6:53PM3 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »
[Quoted post was removed]
[snip] LA are not the only thing that could speed up your rotation and "cheat" (cause lets be honest, dmg from LA is nothing to compare to dmg you can get from skills and even if you will nerf it to 10%, it will be still source of advantage to those who know how to use it). You can also roll, you can block, you can swap weapons. Bah, HA is even more serious than LA because it gives you resorces while pressing skills, so my stamplar could jab things in eternity and he will not loss sustain.
Now, imagine we will turn ESO into, for example wow, giving every action a cooldown. Would you imagine how awful gameplay will become?
Oh, look, troll throw rock at me, but I cannot roll, or block, or interrupt him, because I just use an attack and need to wair 0.9 sec to take any action. No, I can only try to run out of AOE so it is so good that everyone running at the same speed. [snip]
Plus, looking at various YT channels dedicated ESO, weaving, animation cancelling & building rotation are probably the most important part of the game, giving people something they can aspire to. Because if you do not have experience from other games, you will not become good in one or two days. You need a time and dedication to develop your knowledge and skills to reach and break following tresholds. But once you will do it... I don't know how dev team, but I am totally enjoing! And can set to the next goal.
it would be horrendous lol. At that point, why not just play WoW ya know? For that Auto-Attack white damage? I feel like people are just too lazy and want automatic damage, which is why they probably ran proc builds so the game just plays for them. it's the same peopel calling animation canceling an "exploit". It's not, it's a mechanic the devs have put in and left in the game the past 7 years, that you either learn to do or decide you don't have the finger strength and get left behind.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 9, 2021 6:53PM2 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭[Quoted pots was removed]
[snip]
I didn't insult wow in anyway. Just use it for a comparison. Each game have their own gamestyle and that is great. But solutions used in one game, might not work in other.
Last but not least - LA and other forms of CA are not exploits, but consequences of design, which turn out to valid mechanics, that are accesible to anyone who want to spend some of their time to train & improve. There is nothing elitist in that. It is pure logic, that if you want to make vet dung or trial, you want to have next to you people that invest their time & focus into learning the rules & training to improve their performance. Just like in real life.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 9, 2021 6:51PM0 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.
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