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Light attacks and abilities damage
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axi✭✭✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
if you say about 21kk atro, then 50k is very small.It is possible to do 45-50k with no LA.
It is no problem to do 40K on 800+cp.
What about 70k with 2 DoT abilities and heavy attack spam (basically doable with one hand) ?Edited by axi on April 7, 2021 7:50PM1 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
Well when You spam 1 ability its damage will usually be closer to 100% then 20%
But to be serious if You mean 1 ability in rotation that actually happens on few classes atm. Although Your statement is still kinda silly because we still have usually atleast 5 abilities that we're using actively that will be responsible for ~80% DPS so going over 20% for one of them requires for it to be really strong , still templar with jabs , stam builds with vateshran dual wield , magcro with blastbones , sorc with frag as spammable etc are capable to get over 20% DPS from 1 ability.
Edited by axi on April 7, 2021 8:00PM0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25% LA. Which means 20-25K DPS just from light attack but this is were the math doesn't make sense. How can every light attack be doing 20-25K damage per second if you can only do 1 each second. Is a light attack really 20-25K damage or are they doing more than one per second? Is combat metrics totally wrong and shouldn't be obsessively used or is LA way over performing?
BTW of course LA attack will have less overall damage than skills because most skills are AOE/DOT which do damage for free over a long period of time. LA should be no where near 20K per second, something is wrong. And if you look at those parses LA is usually first or second, meaning it does more damage than ultimates.
And as other posters have said I am also on Gig internet with low latency but NEVER have less than 100ms ping and bumps up in RED all the time. I they can't fix their network speed/latency they should at least make skills/LA less dependent on that. As another person said everything should be in the SAME GCD just make it shorter that would help everyone, cause you could fire off more skills faster or smoothly do LA, but not be totally handicapped by not doing LA between every skill, which makes DPSing just tedious and not fun.
If we used 100k total damage and 20k light attacks as the benchmark, that puts light attacks at 20% of your total damage. Considering that to get this number they need to be 50% of your rotation they offer a low return on investment. One of, if not the lowest of the combat related skills/abilities per button click.
They dont do more damage than an ultimate. They do more DPS than an ultimate. On an Iron Attro parse I'm hitting a LA over 200 times. I'm hitting my ultimate under 10.
They being buffed by the buffs on the iron attro, the vma staff, and more than half (normally) will crit. Thats how they get that high.
That's the point how can LA be doing more DPS than almost every other skill including ultimates. How can LA be doing 20K per SECOND (meaning each and every second). Even with every buff how is that possible. It doesn't matter if you have to do 200 LAs, what matters is HOW is is adding up to 20+K per second. LIke I said either 'combat metrics' is adding it wrong or LA is broken even worse than people think by allowing you either get massive damage per second or to do more than 1 LA per second. A good test would be to just do LA + ONE single target ability over and over on dummy and see if LA or ability does more DPS.
BTW what does the G in GCD mean, oh yeah global, meaning everything so it never made any sense for anything to be outside that. Easiest solution would be just to add LA and everything else to GCD and you're done. Only allow block, bash, roll to override current action. But if cancels action too not just animation. So exploit of LA, skill, LA, block etc would never give both actions.1 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
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Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?1 -
LeonAkando✭✭✭✭I actually agree with this but not because of weaving.
Simply I think it's unsatisfying to look at CMX and see your highest damage being light attack or second highest damage being light attack.
I'd prefer to have some other abilities be the star of the show.0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations. I too basically "quit" a large portion of the game over it (Dungeons, Trials, Etc...) and spend my time doing the things in game us non-l33t players do.Edited by Kwoung on April 7, 2021 9:46PM3 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations.
The game was made to launch on PC, which means M+KB. There was nothing misleading about that.0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations.
The game was made to launch on PC, which means M+KB. There was nothing misleading about that.
I am not sure what that reply had to do with my post. I only play on PC and spend a very large portion of my life on a KB/M including work. Where did I say the game was misleading that I have to use one?1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations.
The game was made to launch on PC, which means M+KB. There was nothing misleading about that.
I am not sure what that reply had to do with my post. I only play on PC and spend a very large portion of my life on a KB/M including work. Where did I say the game was misleading that I have to use one?
You said: .."Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best"
Considering it launched on PC with no plans made aware to users that it would eventually launch on console, it was pretty much implied everyone would have to learn how to play the game (and git gud) using a mouse and keyboard. What part is misleading and who is it misleading to?0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations.
The game was made to launch on PC, which means M+KB. There was nothing misleading about that.
I am not sure what that reply had to do with my post. I only play on PC and spend a very large portion of my life on a KB/M including work. Where did I say the game was misleading that I have to use one?
You said: .."Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best"
Considering it launched on PC with no plans made aware to users that it would eventually launch on console, it was pretty much implied everyone would have to learn how to play the game (and git gud) using a mouse and keyboard. What part is misleading and who is it misleading to?
You skipped the important part, maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M, which is entirely what I was talking about. Any clown can use a KB/M and pretty sure LA weaving didn't exist at launch, at least I don't remember it working like that back then. There is a huge difference between using a KB/M and using them like a concert pianist uses his instrument. We can all play chopsticks, some can do better, and a select few are going to Carnegie Hall, except Carnegie Hall is what everyone says is easily achievable here with practice, and it isn't.
Edited by Kwoung on April 7, 2021 10:13PM0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations.
The game was made to launch on PC, which means M+KB. There was nothing misleading about that.
I am not sure what that reply had to do with my post. I only play on PC and spend a very large portion of my life on a KB/M including work. Where did I say the game was misleading that I have to use one?
You said: .."Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best"
Considering it launched on PC with no plans made aware to users that it would eventually launch on console, it was pretty much implied everyone would have to learn how to play the game (and git gud) using a mouse and keyboard. What part is misleading and who is it misleading to?
You skipped the important part,maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M, which is entirely what I was talking about. Any clown can use a KB/M and pretty sure LA weaving didn't exist at launch, at least I don't remember it working like that back then.
Here is a forum post from May 2014, about 3 or 4 weeks after the official PC launch (not counting the 2 week early access people like me got for pre-ordering in 2013).
Just because you are incapable of achieving something, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be the standard of what should be achieved by players. Bare minimums should not be standards. Simply writing your name on a test should not be the standard. Actually taking the test and aceing it should be the standard.
There was nothing misleading about LA weaving. It's just a mechanic, like many mechanics from many MMORPG's, that (some) players figured out (I think by the end of open beta) that is an integral part of ESO combat. We don't have white auto-attack damage like you do in WoW...we have manual white damage. Yes, manual labor is involved in being successful in ESO, as it should always be.
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Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations.
The game was made to launch on PC, which means M+KB. There was nothing misleading about that.
I am not sure what that reply had to do with my post. I only play on PC and spend a very large portion of my life on a KB/M including work. Where did I say the game was misleading that I have to use one?
You said: .."Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best"
Considering it launched on PC with no plans made aware to users that it would eventually launch on console, it was pretty much implied everyone would have to learn how to play the game (and git gud) using a mouse and keyboard. What part is misleading and who is it misleading to?
You skipped the important part,maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M, which is entirely what I was talking about. Any clown can use a KB/M and pretty sure LA weaving didn't exist at launch, at least I don't remember it working like that back then.
Just because you are incapable of achieving something, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be the standard of what should be achieved by players.
A. Don't make it personal, while I can't hit 115K DPS, I can do 75-80K on a good day, this isn't about me.
B. I was mistaken then, guess it has been around and I only found out much later.
C. Exactly how many players do you think can actually achieve that level?
Yes, vet trial guilds are full of folks that play at that level, except vet trial guilds are a very small portion of the games population. Normal guilds, of which mine has 500 players, maybe has a dozen of which are capable of hitting those numbers and maintaining a perfect rotation most of the time. That's what 2% of the player base?
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ghost_bg_ESO✭✭✭✭At beta it was M/KB and third party software for controller support and it was promised after launch to be implemented...
And for LA weaving it seems to be more necessary for dummy parses and end game content as no dead and speed-runs and big part of the game can be played fine without it. (or solo vet in my case).ad`
Just have run normal MA on some instance with insane lag 600 - 999+ obviously without LA weaving (and with half of my skills not working) and didn't suffered on frozen blood (as it is DPS check).*
*not my mine server and ping on it is usually around 250, it was sticker book run.0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.
One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.
This might come as a surprise, but only a very small portion of humanity is capable of maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M. Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best. I know many a player who has quit the game over not being able to hit those numbers, even after hundreds of hours of practicing on the dummy.
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations.
The game was made to launch on PC, which means M+KB. There was nothing misleading about that.
I am not sure what that reply had to do with my post. I only play on PC and spend a very large portion of my life on a KB/M including work. Where did I say the game was misleading that I have to use one?
You said: .."Building an entire combat system around it (accidentally) and having content creators who clearly fall in the category of those that are capable of doing it, show their awesome builds/rotations/videos that most people are incapable of achieving, is misleading at best"
Considering it launched on PC with no plans made aware to users that it would eventually launch on console, it was pretty much implied everyone would have to learn how to play the game (and git gud) using a mouse and keyboard. What part is misleading and who is it misleading to?
You skipped the important part,maintaining a perfect micro-second rhythm on a KB/M, which is entirely what I was talking about. Any clown can use a KB/M and pretty sure LA weaving didn't exist at launch, at least I don't remember it working like that back then.
Just because you are incapable of achieving something, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be the standard of what should be achieved by players.
A. Don't make it personal, while I can't hit 115K DPS, I can do 75-80K on a good day, this isn't about me.
B. I was mistaken then, guess it has been around and I only found out much later.
C. Exactly how many players do you think can actually achieve that level?
Yes, vet trial guilds are full of folks that play at that level, except vet trial guilds are a very small portion of the games population. Normal guilds, of which mine has 500 players, maybe has a dozen of which are capable of hitting those numbers and maintaining a perfect rotation most of the time. That's what 2% of the player base?
You said you yourself cannot do better than 0.85 LA/s. Well I, myself, do not have a 50-inch vertical leap. But that doesn't mean other people cannot jump vertically at least 50-inches, or that I should petition the NBA because most people, even those who play Basketball Regularly, don't have a 50-inch leap.
That's just what it takes to hit the ceiling, or get close to it. Your request is that ZOS lowers the ceiling because it's to high for most people who play ESO. I'm always against lowering skill ceilings.0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually, I don't think I asked ZOS to do anything, I gave my opinion that I think putting in a system that is so far out of reach for so many players was dumb. This isn't the NBA or a competitive sport, although some treat it that way, it's a game that most people simply play for enjoyment. Then they are slammed and kicked from groups for not being amazing DPS, even though the game doesn't require amazing DPS for any content. It also leaves a sour taste for the many that try, being they were top tier in some other game and should be able to do so here as well, except they can't for whatever reason, which is usually not for lack of trying.
Anyhow, I think my original agreement with someone in this thread was about there being such a huge gap between perfect and not perfect. In my case, the 75-80 is as good as I can get, no idea why, rotation went perfect, nailed every light attack pretty much yet... 75k, not 115K, that's a 40K difference in what, the microsecond timing of pressing a button apparently?
Anyhow, that's what I find dumb. A 10-15K difference sure, but I know way to many folks, myself included that are stuck in that 65-70K range and can't break free no matter how hard they try. Yes, the game doesn't require it, but those are the numbers the builds advertise, so they should be achievable, and folks are going to measure their own performance against them. If a player puts in the time, effort and practice, they should be able to achieve a goal, especially in a game.2 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That's just what it takes to hit the ceiling, or get close to it. Your request is that ZOS lowers the ceiling because it's to high for most people who play ESO. I'm always against lowering skill ceilings.
You seem to have misunderstood me. Nobody talks about how to nerf the damage for high skill players. I suggested a way to increase dps for mid skill and low skill players by nerfing light attack damage and an equivalent increase in ability damage. In practice, the difference of 15-22% DPS due to just one mechanic has an overly strong effect on the final DPS. I think 8-12% of damage from light attacks would be optimal.
What for? Well, it goes somewhere wrong. A lot of players are still afraid of high-level content, mostly because of the difficult combat system for them, and prefer questing and housing. The result is a super easy and boring overland. The latest dungeon dlc looks like a joke, especially the Cauldron. The only boss standing is the secret last in the Villa. And of course pvp, where there are even fewer players than in pve.
A large number of players complain about fake tanks in normal random dungeons. Instead of burning the bosses themselves in a few seconds. But this is not the fault of the people. This is just a result of the fact that the combat system is too hard for some unknown reason and it seems that this is the reason for the too high focus on LA.Edited by Parasaurolophus on April 8, 2021 12:11AMPC/EU1 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.Edited by axi on April 8, 2021 12:26AM0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
BTW ZOS knows LA is a big problem that is why they did that test with removing the damage and adding sustain. But that was too drastic, they should have just made the LA damage really low and give a little sustain, and medium attack like double of both damage and sustain, with heavy getting double again of both. Since med/heavy have a counter in PVP but light does not, it is just cheese essentially. Even in PVE 20% LA is insane. Doing a heavy attack in between each skill should give about 20% DPS not LA.0 -
Abelon✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
BTW ZOS knows LA is a big problem that is why they did that test with removing the damage and adding sustain. But that was too drastic, they should have just made the LA damage really low and give a little sustain, and medium attack like double of both damage and sustain, with heavy getting double again of both. Since med/heavy have a counter in PVP but light does not, it is just cheese essentially. Even in PVE 20% LA is insane. Doing a heavy attack in between each skill should give about 20% DPS not LA.
I completely agree with you that your changes are more along the lines of what ZOS should have tried. And I hope eventually they will try again, but I'm not holding my breath. LA weaving should have been removed back when the game released, but it wasn't. Now it's one of the pieces that builds and rotations are built upon, and certain people consider being good at it akin to... apparently getting into the NBA. No matter which changes happen to LA, the hardcore players will dislike them. The top players do not want the dps gap to become smaller.1 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
BTW ZOS knows LA is a big problem that is why they did that test with removing the damage and adding sustain. But that was too drastic, they should have just made the LA damage really low and give a little sustain, and medium attack like double of both damage and sustain, with heavy getting double again of both. Since med/heavy have a counter in PVP but light does not, it is just cheese essentially. Even in PVE 20% LA is insane. Doing a heavy attack in between each skill should give about 20% DPS not LA.
I completely agree with you that your changes are more along the lines of what ZOS should have tried. And I hope eventually they will try again, but I'm not holding my breath. LA weaving should have been removed back when the game released, but it wasn't. Now it's one of the pieces that builds and rotations are built upon, and certain people consider being good at it akin to... apparently getting into the NBA. No matter which changes happen to LA, the hardcore players will dislike them. The top players do not want the dps gap to become smaller.
So true, in every game I have played... they hate when they aren't far and above everyone else. Unlike ESO though, in all those other MMO's, you could actually get to the level they were at, it just took longer generally, because they dedicated their lives to the game, raided every day of the week, and most people don't. So the upgraded gear, skills, etc.. to make it happen came a lot slower for the average Joe, but he was never gated from being top end due to not being a keyboard maestro. ESO isn't a FPS where reaction times and APM should matter, it's a MMORPG. And while I have gotten most of the way there, it wasn't easy or fun and should have never been a thing, because I didn't buy an adrenaline rush FPS, I bought a MMO to relax, have fun, progress through and hopefully be at the top tier at some point.2 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What about the real issue with light attacks?
50% of my mouse clicks is only resulting in 20% of my damage. It’s clearly unbalanced with other skills.Edited by Runefang on April 8, 2021 7:55AM1 -
Jamerth✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »
if you say about 21kk atro, then 50k is very small.It is possible to do 45-50k with no LA.
It is no problem to do 40K on 800+cp.
What about 70k with 2 DoT abilities and heavy attack spam (basically doable with one hand) ?
Teach me, master! And i am not kidding or making fun of what you've said, i really need help improving my DPS due to physical and technological constrains, as detailed below.
As a magplar with ping constantly at 200+ and the main spammable being the usual Templar class skill Puncturing Sweeps, i long have abandoned the idea of LA weaving and mostly HA weave every few attacks, with better results than expected, i must admit.
My hands ar far from fast and nimble, i have carpal tunnel issues and my hardware and ping are far from optimal, so yes, i cannot LA weave for the life of me, especially when using Puncturing Sweeps, a skill notorious for the LA weaving difficulty.
I use a rotation with 2 aoe/dots, sweeps and HA from my lightning staff for splash damage, off-balance and sustain, switching to a back bar with fire staff and execution/interrupt skills for when the boss remains alone with no adds.
My technique is noobish at best, the DPS i see on my screen is abysmal, but for some reason no matter the group i run or pug with at the end of the fight i almost always score more than 50% of the damage dealt to the big targets and more than 70% for mobs from the damage dealt by the entire group, no matter how good my team mates are. This is according to CMX.
As per CMX and Trial Dummy parses, LA weaving is indeed fenomenal, but my math fails to explain how in real combat situations like dungeons my character that barely gets to 40k on a trial dummy can hoard more than 50% of the damage done while in the same group with people i know for sure they do more than 70k DPS on the same Trial Dummy in parses.
Is it maybe that the whole "CMX and LA weave is god" ideology deeply flawed?Edited by Jamerth on April 8, 2021 8:38AM0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Edited by Septimus_Magna on April 8, 2021 9:10AMPC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »That's just what it takes to hit the ceiling, or get close to it. Your request is that ZOS lowers the ceiling because it's to high for most people who play ESO. I'm always against lowering skill ceilings.
You seem to have misunderstood me. Nobody talks about how to nerf the damage for high skill players. I suggested a way to increase dps for mid skill and low skill players by nerfing light attack damage and an equivalent increase in ability damage. In practice, the difference of 15-22% DPS due to just one mechanic has an overly strong effect on the final DPS. I think 8-12% of damage from light attacks would be optimal.
What for? Well, it goes somewhere wrong. A lot of players are still afraid of high-level content, mostly because of the difficult combat system for them, and prefer questing and housing. The result is a super easy and boring overland. The latest dungeon dlc looks like a joke, especially the Cauldron. The only boss standing is the secret last in the Villa. And of course pvp, where there are even fewer players than in pve.
A large number of players complain about fake tanks in normal random dungeons. Instead of burning the bosses themselves in a few seconds. But this is not the fault of the people. This is just a result of the fact that the combat system is too hard for some unknown reason and it seems that this is the reason for the too high focus on LA.
That is a request to lower the skill floor, so players who aren't weaving or who don't want to take the time to actually learn the mechanics of ESO, can perform one step under the players who spent time, effort, and energy learning combat mechanics, how to weave, what are efficient builds to run, etc. You basically want the players who put the time and effort into the game to only be one notch above those who just installed the game and have no idea what's going on.
I'm always against systems who want to reward players for not knowing anything, instead of rewarding players who actually figure things out. I'm not saying the game can't get better at explaining everything to new players, but if people choose to put in bare minimum effort then that is fine, they should expect bare minimum performance and be aware of where they stand, so they can play with other people who also want to put in bare minimum effort. I have nothing against that scenario. But the system you propose wants to put people who put bare minimum effort in the same league as those who put maximum effort....Edited by Goregrinder on April 8, 2021 7:46PM0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I myself am incapable of achieving those numbers, even with a .85 LA ratio (which is the best I can achieve) and quite honestly, it is quite depressing as I too have spent hundreds, if not 1000+ hours, practicing rotations. I too basically "quit" a large portion of the game over it (Dungeons, Trials, Etc...) and spend my time doing the things in game us non-l33t players do.
If you need l33t DPS to do dungeons and trials on normal or even on no-HM vet than the issue is on you. There is absolutely no need to pull even 40k dps if you aren't running harder stuff. Sounds more like your issue lies on ego, bad groups and following mechanics.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on April 8, 2021 4:37PM0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
BTW ZOS knows LA is a big problem that is why they did that test with removing the damage and adding sustain. But that was too drastic, they should have just made the LA damage really low and give a little sustain, and medium attack like double of both damage and sustain, with heavy getting double again of both. Since med/heavy have a counter in PVP but light does not, it is just cheese essentially. Even in PVE 20% LA is insane. Doing a heavy attack in between each skill should give about 20% DPS not LA.
I completely agree with you that your changes are more along the lines of what ZOS should have tried. And I hope eventually they will try again, but I'm not holding my breath. LA weaving should have been removed back when the game released, but it wasn't. Now it's one of the pieces that builds and rotations are built upon, and certain people consider being good at it akin to... apparently getting into the NBA. No matter which changes happen to LA, the hardcore players will dislike them. The top players do not want the dps gap to become smaller.
Yeah the initial problem as far as damage has always been the light attack exploit and crit damage being SO high. In every other game I can think of crit chance/dmg is maxxed out at like 50%, but in this game you could get both over 100%. I think they are trying to fix it. But not there yet. And in PVE it's not as big an issue because I don't give a *** about leader boards and achievements.
But in PVP LA exploit among others and crit (plus insane execute) has made it totally toxic for a long time. Literally the first person who pushes dawnbreaker, LA, dizzy, LA exec wins. There is NO skill involved because even the so-called expert say it is all muscle memory so push same buttons over and over until you kill someone. PVE rotation is similarly braindead, I find tanking and even healing infinitely more rewarding because you have to have situational awareness and actually do different stuff, rather than mash the same buttons over and over.
Fortunately I think ZOS knows this is a problem but only thinks it is high end PVE and is trying to figure out a way to fix that without affecting PVP, but it is the exact same problem in BOTH and same fix. Cap crit at 50%, reduce damage of LA or add to GCD.
Going further I think they actually need to do something about roll dodge being so powerful. A tank in vet content with maxxed out block should be able to block and/or interrupt most big boss attacks but NOT ROLL being the only option. And rolling from an AOE should still give a % of damage to person unless they have completely exited area. And rolling thru enemies should not be allowed at all.
I can remember trying to roll thru bosses used to knock you off balance (like interrupting heavy), they should have never changed that but add players too. It is stupid that in PVP you can literally run right thru enemy players, that is stupid and allows for massive exploits where people run behind a door/tree/post, then you chase and they run right through you, making it impossible to target them. At a min graphics should collide with enemies, and trying to roll should maybe knock both people down or something logical. Similar exploit is jumping up and down all the time so people can't target you, which is broken.
It is sad that there are so many tactical exploits in this game that give people willing to use them such an extreme advantage over people not willing or capable to use them, and that is what is called 'top tier' and skillful. Good news is it can be fixed but will ZOS fix it?1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
BTW ZOS knows LA is a big problem that is why they did that test with removing the damage and adding sustain. But that was too drastic, they should have just made the LA damage really low and give a little sustain, and medium attack like double of both damage and sustain, with heavy getting double again of both. Since med/heavy have a counter in PVP but light does not, it is just cheese essentially. Even in PVE 20% LA is insane. Doing a heavy attack in between each skill should give about 20% DPS not LA.
I completely agree with you that your changes are more along the lines of what ZOS should have tried. And I hope eventually they will try again, but I'm not holding my breath. LA weaving should have been removed back when the game released, but it wasn't. Now it's one of the pieces that builds and rotations are built upon, and certain people consider being good at it akin to... apparently getting into the NBA. No matter which changes happen to LA, the hardcore players will dislike them. The top players do not want the dps gap to become smaller.
Yeah the initial problem as far as damage has always been the light attack exploit and crit damage being SO high. In every other game I can think of crit chance/dmg is maxxed out at like 50%, but in this game you could get both over 100%. I think they are trying to fix it. But not there yet. And in PVE it's not as big an issue because I don't give a *** about leader boards and achievements.
But in PVP LA exploit among others and crit (plus insane execute) has made it totally toxic for a long time. Literally the first person who pushes dawnbreaker, LA, dizzy, LA exec wins. There is NO skill involved because even the so-called expert say it is all muscle memory so push same buttons over and over until you kill someone. PVE rotation is similarly braindead, I find tanking and even healing infinitely more rewarding because you have to have situational awareness and actually do different stuff, rather than mash the same buttons over and over.
Fortunately I think ZOS knows this is a problem but only thinks it is high end PVE and is trying to figure out a way to fix that without affecting PVP, but it is the exact same problem in BOTH and same fix. Cap crit at 50%, reduce damage of LA or add to GCD.
Going further I think they actually need to do something about roll dodge being so powerful. A tank in vet content with maxxed out block should be able to block and/or interrupt most big boss attacks but NOT ROLL being the only option. And rolling from an AOE should still give a % of damage to person unless they have completely exited area. And rolling thru enemies should not be allowed at all.
I can remember trying to roll thru bosses used to knock you off balance (like interrupting heavy), they should have never changed that but add players too. It is stupid that in PVP you can literally run right thru enemy players, that is stupid and allows for massive exploits where people run behind a door/tree/post, then you chase and they run right through you, making it impossible to target them. At a min graphics should collide with enemies, and trying to roll should maybe knock both people down or something logical. Similar exploit is jumping up and down all the time so people can't target you, which is broken.
It is sad that there are so many tactical exploits in this game that give people willing to use them such an extreme advantage over people not willing or capable to use them, and that is what is called 'top tier' and skillful. Good news is it can be fixed but will ZOS fix it?
Are you labeling Light Attack weaving as "Light Attack exploit"? Or is there an actual known exploit involving Light Attacks?0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.
They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.
This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25%
Currently in top parses on stam light attack DPS is usually around 15% and on mag around 18%.
Well it is good that it has been reduced but what is still making a light attack do about 15-18K damage every second when it should only be doing like 2-3K, is it being added wrong or is it firing more than once a second?
Where does the assumption that light attacks should deal 2-3k dmg come from ? Light attacks usually have scaling equal to around 30-40% of average spammable ability scaling.
Well a gold staff has max weapon damage of like 1.3K. Even when I wear both undaunted sets and maelstrom staff which all give about 1.6K extra to L/HA, I can only get about 6K per tick and maybe 10K with crit/empower. The real question is how is anyone getting a sustained 15-25K LA damage per second consistently? Where is this damage coming from? Is CMX inaccurate or is LA broken?
BTW ZOS knows LA is a big problem that is why they did that test with removing the damage and adding sustain. But that was too drastic, they should have just made the LA damage really low and give a little sustain, and medium attack like double of both damage and sustain, with heavy getting double again of both. Since med/heavy have a counter in PVP but light does not, it is just cheese essentially. Even in PVE 20% LA is insane. Doing a heavy attack in between each skill should give about 20% DPS not LA.
I completely agree with you that your changes are more along the lines of what ZOS should have tried. And I hope eventually they will try again, but I'm not holding my breath. LA weaving should have been removed back when the game released, but it wasn't. Now it's one of the pieces that builds and rotations are built upon, and certain people consider being good at it akin to... apparently getting into the NBA. No matter which changes happen to LA, the hardcore players will dislike them. The top players do not want the dps gap to become smaller.
Yeah the initial problem as far as damage has always been the light attack exploit and crit damage being SO high. In every other game I can think of crit chance/dmg is maxxed out at like 50%, but in this game you could get both over 100%. I think they are trying to fix it. But not there yet. And in PVE it's not as big an issue because I don't give a *** about leader boards and achievements.
But in PVP LA exploit among others and crit (plus insane execute) has made it totally toxic for a long time. Literally the first person who pushes dawnbreaker, LA, dizzy, LA exec wins. There is NO skill involved because even the so-called expert say it is all muscle memory so push same buttons over and over until you kill someone. PVE rotation is similarly braindead, I find tanking and even healing infinitely more rewarding because you have to have situational awareness and actually do different stuff, rather than mash the same buttons over and over.
Fortunately I think ZOS knows this is a problem but only thinks it is high end PVE and is trying to figure out a way to fix that without affecting PVP, but it is the exact same problem in BOTH and same fix. Cap crit at 50%, reduce damage of LA or add to GCD.
Going further I think they actually need to do something about roll dodge being so powerful. A tank in vet content with maxxed out block should be able to block and/or interrupt most big boss attacks but NOT ROLL being the only option. And rolling from an AOE should still give a % of damage to person unless they have completely exited area. And rolling thru enemies should not be allowed at all.
I can remember trying to roll thru bosses used to knock you off balance (like interrupting heavy), they should have never changed that but add players too. It is stupid that in PVP you can literally run right thru enemy players, that is stupid and allows for massive exploits where people run behind a door/tree/post, then you chase and they run right through you, making it impossible to target them. At a min graphics should collide with enemies, and trying to roll should maybe knock both people down or something logical. Similar exploit is jumping up and down all the time so people can't target you, which is broken.
It is sad that there are so many tactical exploits in this game that give people willing to use them such an extreme advantage over people not willing or capable to use them, and that is what is called 'top tier' and skillful. Good news is it can be fixed but will ZOS fix it?
Are you labeling Light Attack weaving as "Light Attack exploit"? Or is there an actual known exploit involving Light Attacks?
Light attack weaving is doing a light attack in between each skill to get extra damage and ulty (and maybe some sustain if they bring that back) and allowing system to fully display animations.
Light attack exploit is doing the LA weaving in an exploitable window that cancels animations but gives full benefit of LA plus other attack in same GCD. That is the definition of an exploit, using unintended programming errors to your benefit.
Exploits like this make is so devs don't know how hard to make dungeons because certain people will have artificially high DPS while most people won't. So people can skip mechanics and make boss fights too easy for exploiters and too hard for everyone else.
Everyone including ZOS knows this is a problem, so don't pretend like people who point this out are crazy. Either ZOS will fix it or they won't. But I think what they will do is give us 20K DPS companions and call it a day, which is fine with me too.2