Light attacks and abilities damage

Parasaurolophus

I will say right away that I have no problems with light attacks and weaving ... on target dummy. But when I go to trial with my group, I lose 15-20% of my light attacks. Regularly in combat, my character just stops casting light attacks. For 1-2 seconds, I can still cast skills, but not light attacks. But these are prefaces ...
Looking at the logs, I see that light attacks make up a very large part of your dps. More than 20%. And I think it shouldn't be that way. 20% from just one mechanic? Why? Maybe you need to try to reduce the damage from light attacks and increase the damage from abilities equivalently? Yes, I think that the player's skill element should still be there, but more than 20% from light attacks only is too much. This makes the combat system too focused on one specific mechanic. Also, light attacks are too sensitive to your ping and server performance. Nerf light attacks will rightly reduce the gap between people with different pings. It will also make the combat system not so scary and difficult for a lot of people who cannot master weaving. This will make veteran content more accessible to people rather than companions.
So ... what do you think about this?

AuraoftheAzureSea

I do remember feeling frustrated when I’d parse and practice and practice to get my LAs into muscle memory only for it to be very unreliable in actual combat. Sometimes it’d be fine, others not so much. It was especially obvious since I ran with a grim focus LA add on.

I think this is typical for any online game and most people know parses are in optimal conditions.

Seraphayel

To hit all Light Attacks as a ranged player is quite a task. It’s pretty hard sometimes in PvE due to aiming, but try weaving in LAs in PvP when you’re not 1v1. It’s almost impossible to hit, especially with Sorcs and Wardens around, where you most likely only hit their pets. It’s a downside of ranged builds - oh, did I mention that ranged LAs deal even less damage than melee LAs? Funny, isn’t it?

CableBomb

Dude, I don't say this as antagonisticly, but they've merfed enough s*** over the years. No nerf to LA please.

You don't need perfect LA weaving to complete DLCs or Trials, and everyone that isn't a Trial coordinator knows that parses are not reflective of boss fights in endgame content.

Brrrofski

So we have to nerf things because people either play on crappy internet or are unlucky enough to not have a server for their region?

Unless you're in a team pushing score, missing light attacks here or there makes no difference. You can still complete the content.

axi

Skills are responsible for 75-90% DPS. Lets nerf skills !

Welanduz

BrownChicken wrote: »

So ... what do you think about this?

I think 80% of the game is accessible to everyone. No matter how you play (quests and any kind of normal dungeons and trials).
15% of the game is achievable with a minimal understanding of skills, rotation, and mechanics (all veteran dungeons and trials).
5% of the game is only accessible with a very good understanding and practice of skills, rotation and mechanics, including weaving (e.g. some DLC dungeons, any kind of No Death, speed runs).

And that's a good thing because it serves many different types of players. The casual player as well as the ambitious sporty player.

So if you can't manage a certain content, it's probably simply because it's not made for you.

Or in other words: Everything is fine, no further simplifications in the game necessary, please do not request that some of the players have their content taken away!

Best regards
Welanduz

ghost_bg_ESO

its most likely to cut people who actually try to learn weaving. knowing once rotation player can adapt it to lag; not all LA/skill are dependent on lag some work fine, and for affected changing timing from dummy is really fast habit to adopt.

as a solo player i don't care too much for perfect rotation. and i have soloed enough normal and some vet non-dlc before even start to keep attention about weaving.

GreenHere

Pro tip: Fiddle with your camera settings!

Adjusting your camera angle so that it's easier for you to see & target enemies in the chaos of combat can make a very noticeable difference. Personally I like my camera to be close and low for adventuring and whatnot, but for combat effectiveness I need to be zoomed out and up high.

If you're on PC N'Tak Camera is an excellent addon that can make switching between custom presets a breeze; otherwise you'll need to adjust manually in Settings as desired.

CableBomb

GreenHere wrote: »

Pro tip: Fiddle with your camera settings!

Adjusting your camera angle so that it's easier for you to see & target enemies in the chaos of combat can make a very noticeable difference. Personally I like my camera to be close and low for adventuring and whatnot, but for combat effectiveness I need to be zoomed out and up high.

If you're on PC N'Tak Camera is an excellent addon that can make switching between custom presets a breeze; otherwise you'll need to adjust manually in Settings as desired.

Dude that's a great tip. A lower angle always helps me with LAs.

Agenericname

In U29 they removed the CP that buffs light attacks essentially doing exactly what you asked for. There is however a danger in going too far. The proverbial ceiling and floor are closer now than any time I can remember.

From what Ive read of it, companions will displace players, so they wont necessarily make vet content more accessible in terms of damage output. They will be able to fill gaps when groups are short or possibly just dont want to PUG, but I doubt that they will provide the accessibility you think.

You dont need to "master weaving" to make vet content accessible. Others have stated why, so I wont rehash it, but its not a neccessity.

codierussell

Except nerfing light attacks and raising the damage of the skills does nothing to lower the gap. Top players will always light attack weave because it is free damage. even when they were testing the change last year where light attacks gave more sustain than damage top players were even better off because sustain only became an issue for those who could not weave. At this point they can't do anything about the core combat of the game or they lose players. Keep it the same and maybe make veteran and the veteran hard modes a little bit easier, then add a harder difficulty for the players that want more of a challenge.

Lephrel

The answer to all your problems:
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2918-PerfectWeave.html

Goregrinder

BrownChicken wrote: »

I will say right away that I have no problems with light attacks and weaving ... on target dummy. But when I go to trial with my group, I lose 15-20% of my light attacks. Regularly in combat, my character just stops casting light attacks. For 1-2 seconds, I can still cast skills, but not light attacks. But these are prefaces ...
Looking at the logs, I see that light attacks make up a very large part of your dps. More than 20%. And I think it shouldn't be that way. 20% from just one mechanic? Why? Maybe you need to try to reduce the damage from light attacks and increase the damage from abilities equivalently? Yes, I think that the player's skill element should still be there, but more than 20% from light attacks only is too much. This makes the combat system too focused on one specific mechanic. Also, light attacks are too sensitive to your ping and server performance. Nerf light attacks will rightly reduce the gap between people with different pings. It will also make the combat system not so scary and difficult for a lot of people who cannot master weaving. This will make veteran content more accessible to people rather than companions.
So ... what do you think about this?

I get you want to remove what separates ESO from WoW and its clones to make the game easier for you, but the game is already easy enough for most of us. I'd rather not try and convert ESO into WoW and its clones, otherwise why play ESO? Why not just go play WoW instead?

Kwoung

Brrrofski wrote: »

So we have to nerf things because people either play on crappy internet or are unlucky enough to not have a server for their region?

Unless you're in a team pushing score, missing light attacks here or there makes no difference. You can still complete the content.

Ping in ESO is not about how good your Internet connection is. I have a solid 500 meg connection with low latency, no packet loss to speak of and low pings to pretty much anywhere in the US, EXCEPT to ZOS's servers. I get 50-60ms average cross country from CA to Baltimore or anywhere back east really, but get 100-150ms apparently to ESO servers which I believe are only half the distance away in Texas. I actually dumped ATT as a provider for our company once, because they couldn't do better than 75ms best case cross country due to their network topology. The last private network I setup from California to Hong Kong, we had a solid 115-120ms ping, even our offices in Shanghai only hit 180ms behind "The Great Firewall", and my ping rate spikes to 180 or higher in ESO constantly.

So yeah, I kinda agree that implementing a combat system that so heavily relies on a solid low latency connection to the game servers is pretty messed up, if the game company itself can't insure having solid low latency connection for its customers. I watch the streamers parsing occasionally and see those guys on those incredible DPS builds have 20-30ms responses, while I sit at 115ms, so there is no way I will ever hit the parse numbers they are showing, it is virtually impossible and 100% out of my control. No amount of git gud on my part will fix ZOS's crappy Internet connection that many suffer through.

Parasaurolophus

CableBomb wrote: »

Dude, I don't say this as antagonisticly, but they've merfed enough s*** over the years. No nerf to LA please.

You don't need perfect LA weaving to complete DLCs or Trials, and everyone that isn't a Trial coordinator knows that parses are not reflective of boss fights in endgame content.

This is very important for a better result. In addition, I wrote that you need to shift the focus to the side of the abilities.

axi wrote: »

Skills are responsible for 75-90% DPS. Lets nerf skills !

I would say that if the damage from spam of one skill exceeded 20%, then yes, it would be bad.

codierussell wrote: »

Except nerfing light attacks and raising the damage of the skills does nothing to lower the gap. Top players will always light attack weave because it is free damage. even when they were testing the change last year where light attacks gave more sustain than damage top players were even better off because sustain only became an issue for those who could not weave. At this point they can't do anything about the core combat of the game or they lose players. Keep it the same and maybe make veteran and the veteran hard modes a little bit easier, then add a harder difficulty for the players that want more of a challenge.

It was a really terrible idea and thank goodness it didn't go live. But the AOS see the problem of a colossal gap in the skills of the players. I suggested how not to harm high skill players and help low skill and mid skill players a little.
On the other hand, my idea looks too obvious ... And either the ZoS do not follow simple paths, or something is wrong with this idea.

Chilly-McFreeze

BrownChicken wrote: »

or something is wrong with this idea.

Most likely this. Weaving is a core combat mechanic that also separates ESO from other MMO heavyweights. And tbf they need something that makes this game different.

ZOS did a lot over time to bring the floor closer to the ceiling. The changes to CP are the most recent ones and include a pretty hefty nerf to light attacks by stripping the coresponding cp node entirely.

You could could put 90%+ of DPS on skills and elite player parses would still be out of reach for the casual.
Beside that, people would still find something to complain and the urge to ask to make things easier.

Parasaurolophus

ZOS did a lot over time to bring the floor closer to the ceiling. The changes to CP are the most recent ones and include a pretty hefty nerf to light attacks by stripping the coresponding cp node entirely.

Yes, but before CP 2.0 the percentage of light attacks was even lower.

Stevie6

All the development team needs to do is just roll in the LA damage into ea skill and it will do two things.

1. gives players more damage so that they don't miss out on LA damage and

2. it will reduce server lag.

Also, skills should be based on weapon selection and if you need more, just add in more usable skill slots...1 thru 9 usable skills and 10 is the ultimate. Give players more choices instead of being limited to 6 keys. New players and the average players are just being left behind. The floor isn't being raised at all. Base damage has to be raised in order for them to have a viable chance at doing anything. Pre Horrorwind worked well until the nerf to shields and damage. All the devs had to do was improve stam based players. Maybe Microsoft will make the needed changes in the future.

For those that are going to complain about others not being able to weave, I could care less one way or the other. The developers should implement a "login hard mode" button so that the overall content is much harder for them. They can handle it because of their ability to incorporate weaving. Overland monsters or encounters will be able to detect a player in "hard mode" and dish out 2 to 4 times the damage while leaving the "normal mode" player at 1 x damage. That should work..right? Heh, it would probably end up having more than one server. Maybe 10 servers with different modes of play..

Kidgangster101

CableBomb wrote: »

Dude, I don't say this as antagonisticly, but they've merfed enough s*** over the years. No nerf to LA please.

You don't need perfect LA weaving to complete DLCs or Trials, and everyone that isn't a Trial coordinator knows that parses are not reflective of boss fights in endgame content.

Only thing I have to say to that.... What if your in a pug group and they are barely doing damage? You say it doesn't matter for him to complete content, but yet that directly impacts him based off how many bad players there are at this game.

Like literally most of the players I played with would ignore advice to get better, you could tell they were doing 5-10k dps and if we ever got to a healing mechanic welp unless they were carried you can't complete it. Or a dps check is the same thing.

So yes the OP is correct. LA weave has always been a problem. I get it takes skill or lots of practice to do it, but at the same time most of the community refuse to do it. Something should be done just so you can get other people up to par.

You can't increase moves because that just makes LA spam people even better unless you need LA spam like OP suggested.

AyaDark

It is possible to do 45-50k with no LA.

It is no problem to do 40K on 800+cp.

It is no problem in LA weave.

It is problem that people do not understand how the game works and what to do.

Parasaurolophus

It is possible to do 45-50k with no LA.

It is no problem to do 40K on 800+cp.

if you say about 21kk atro, then 50k is very small.

JTD

I am good at La/Weave on a dummy and decent in a real trial situation. I make mistakes put i can do a near perfect dummy rotation. It took me ages to perfect, a lot of effort, blood, sweat and tears. I like it and I dislike it. I makes the game feel high paced and action packed... there is almost no situation where you are not inputting anything.. you get into that rhythm and it becomes like a flow of water (if the game allows it though). On the other hand the glitching of the animation and the ability to cancel the LA animation show its not 'meant to be'. The game can't even handle teaching newer players how to weave properly cause it's not in the 'code'... there is no in game weaving tutorial...

I would not wish that on others. The fact that the game(designers) embraced the unintentional weaving effect is a sign that they cannot get rid of it or don't know how to. I would be sad to see weaving go but i understand the frustration people have with it.

As i understand (and correct me if I am wrong) LA are on a (??) gcd and Skills are on a (.8seconds)gcd. Which makes it possible to put a LA before every Skill usage and with that cancel the LA animation... why not just put them both on the same (.4seconds? just a number) gcd and make it a prerequisite for targeted skills to have used a LA before it? (just a brainfart and I already see the flaws in my own writing here... D )

AlnilamE

Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.

They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.

Hawco10

Why do people only want to eat Tuna if it’s been friends with a dolphin ? If anything I think that it makes eating it even more heartbreaking.

Parasaurolophus

On the other hand the glitching of the animation and the ability to cancel the LA animation show its not 'meant to be'. The game can't even handle teaching newer players how to weave properly cause it's not in the 'code'... there is no in game weaving tutorial...

It looks good enough now. The animations are smoother, it is no longer possible to speed up the triggering of skills with a block. They are safe features of the combat system and made it look good.

As i understand (and correct me if I am wrong) LA are on a (??) gcd and Skills are on a (.8seconds)gcd. Which makes it possible to put a LA before every Skill usage and with that cancel the LA animation... why not just put them both on the same (.4seconds? just a number) gcd and make it a prerequisite for targeted skills to have used a LA before it? (just a brainfart and I already see the flaws in my own writing here... D )

Then there would be little point in light attacks. Again, I would not want to completely remove the weaving. I'm just saying that LA has an overwhelming effect on the final DPS. The player's skill will still depend on skill uptime and apm.

FirmamentOfStars

How about we base max dps on player input? Normally you have at least 120 apm while parsing, light attack plus skill per second. Lets make it all equal, therefore dps should be split 50:50 into LA and skills.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

You arent going to like this, but the reality is that if your light attacks are falling that much in combat, its a button pressing issue. My money is that you are speeding up your rotation in combat and your LAs arent queuing properly. Its something I struggle with and still work on to this day.

One of the biggest things that separates good players from great players is that they can keep their light attacks at the same level (or close) in actual combat that they can on a dummy. And plenty do it with very high ping.

Merforum

AlnilamE wrote: »

Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.

They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.

This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25% LA. Which means 20-25K DPS just from light attack but this is were the math doesn't make sense. How can every light attack be doing 20-25K damage per second if you can only do 1 each second. Is a light attack really 20-25K damage or are they doing more than one per second? Is combat metrics totally wrong and shouldn't be obsessively used or is LA way over performing?

BTW of course LA attack will have less overall damage than skills because most skills are AOE/DOT which do damage for free over a long period of time. LA should be no where near 20K per second, something is wrong. And if you look at those parses LA is usually first or second, meaning it does more damage than ultimates.

And as other posters have said I am also on Gig internet with low latency but NEVER have less than 100ms ping and bumps up in RED all the time. I they can't fix their network speed/latency they should at least make skills/LA less dependent on that. As another person said everything should be in the SAME GCD just make it shorter that would help everyone, cause you could fire off more skills faster or smoothly do LA, but not be totally handicapped by not doing LA between every skill, which makes DPSing just tedious and not fun.

Agenericname

Merforum wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.

They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.

This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25% LA. Which means 20-25K DPS just from light attack but this is were the math doesn't make sense. How can every light attack be doing 20-25K damage per second if you can only do 1 each second. Is a light attack really 20-25K damage or are they doing more than one per second? Is combat metrics totally wrong and shouldn't be obsessively used or is LA way over performing?

BTW of course LA attack will have less overall damage than skills because most skills are AOE/DOT which do damage for free over a long period of time. LA should be no where near 20K per second, something is wrong. And if you look at those parses LA is usually first or second, meaning it does more damage than ultimates.

And as other posters have said I am also on Gig internet with low latency but NEVER have less than 100ms ping and bumps up in RED all the time. I they can't fix their network speed/latency they should at least make skills/LA less dependent on that. As another person said everything should be in the SAME GCD just make it shorter that would help everyone, cause you could fire off more skills faster or smoothly do LA, but not be totally handicapped by not doing LA between every skill, which makes DPSing just tedious and not fun.

If we used 100k total damage and 20k light attacks as the benchmark, that puts light attacks at 20% of your total damage. Considering that to get this number they need to be 50% of your rotation they offer a low return on investment. One of, if not the lowest of the combat related skills/abilities per button click.

They dont do more damage than an ultimate. They do more DPS than an ultimate. On an Iron Attro parse I'm hitting a LA over 200 times. I'm hitting my ultimate under 10.

They being buffed by the buffs on the iron attro, the vma staff, and more than half (normally) will crit. Thats how they get that high.

Goregrinder

Agenericname wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Why do you think that 20% of the damage being light attacks is too much, if you are weaving, that's 50% of your rotation.

They obviously do less damage than individual skills, they are just being used more than anything else.

This math doesn't make sense. I just about every parse I've seen on internet of 100K DPS, it is almost always 20-25% LA. Which means 20-25K DPS just from light attack but this is were the math doesn't make sense. How can every light attack be doing 20-25K damage per second if you can only do 1 each second. Is a light attack really 20-25K damage or are they doing more than one per second? Is combat metrics totally wrong and shouldn't be obsessively used or is LA way over performing?

BTW of course LA attack will have less overall damage than skills because most skills are AOE/DOT which do damage for free over a long period of time. LA should be no where near 20K per second, something is wrong. And if you look at those parses LA is usually first or second, meaning it does more damage than ultimates.

And as other posters have said I am also on Gig internet with low latency but NEVER have less than 100ms ping and bumps up in RED all the time. I they can't fix their network speed/latency they should at least make skills/LA less dependent on that. As another person said everything should be in the SAME GCD just make it shorter that would help everyone, cause you could fire off more skills faster or smoothly do LA, but not be totally handicapped by not doing LA between every skill, which makes DPSing just tedious and not fun.

If we used 100k total damage and 20k light attacks as the benchmark, that puts light attacks at 20% of your total damage. Considering that to get this number they need to be 50% of your rotation they offer a low return on investment. One of, if not the lowest of the combat related skills/abilities per button click.

They dont do more damage than an ultimate. They do more DPS than an ultimate. On an Iron Attro parse I'm hitting a LA over 200 times. I'm hitting my ultimate under 10.

They being buffed by the buffs on the iron attro, the vma staff, and more than half (normally) will crit. Thats how they get that high.

Other considerations:

Skills always have a resources cost on top of a global. Light Attacks only cost a global...so they are the best way to maintain your sustain while still maximizing damage.

People forget about empowerment affects...if you just stopped using LA in your rotation, besides your sustain going down, you'd no longer benefit from empowerment buffs, thus losing even more damage.