ForzaRammer wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

There is nothing healthy about price doubling year to year.

What prices have doubled year over year? And why is this not healthy in a virtual economy?

What is your evidence on your claim ‘inflation is a normal part of healthy economy’?

• Take an economics class
• Google???
• Wikipedia
• Ask an economics teacher or professor.

Inflation is a natural occurrence in a healthy economy. A virtual economy does not play by the same exact rules though. I will give you a free lesson in virtual economics though:

1. Gold is literally generated out of thin air unlike real currency which requires some sort of "faith" and backing in that currency by its users.
2. NPCs don't care how much gold is in the game, they buy and sell for the same price now that they did 5 years ago. Likewise the sinks such as housing and gear repair have also never changed.
3. Everything you can buy from a guild trader, you can acquire on your own. I know this for a fact because not only do i acquire everything i can get on guild trader on my own but i also have trading as a major activity in ESO( and formerly Eve Online).

Conclusions:
* Gold has the same purchasing power now as it did 5 years ago for the things that you can't acquire yourself and need to spend gold on.
* Any items in which you think are the victims of inflation or hyper inflation are items you can acquire yourself. Their price is only relevant if you refuse to acquire the items yourself. If you refuse to acquire said items yourself, then you will pay the price that the sellers want, or you will go without.
* Technically speaking based on the evidence i just presented to you, ESO has an inflation level of 0% since gold has the exact same purchasing power now as it did 5 years ago.

Any questions?

You are claiming ur opinion as facts without presenting evidence.

Correction...

* My first paragraph = Opinion
* My second paragraph = Observation
* My third paragraph = Observation followed by opinion.

Observations ARE evidence. Since those are my observations, i can verify that they are factual statements.

To people like u it’s a merely double price year to year, not the 50% every month defined by the economist.

People like me? You mean people who understand economics and has became uber rich in games because of it? You can't hyper inflate one item. Inflation and hyperinflation are measured off a currencies purchasing power against the CPI. The inflation rate in ESO is 0% because X gold will buy the exact same things now, it did 5 years ago. If you use to pay someone 10k for 50 butterfly wings, but now they want 10k for 20 butterfly wings, that isn't inflation. That is supply and demand. You have the choice to get those wings yourself. But you are choosing to pay someone else to get them for you so you can spend your time doing something else. They decided their time is worth 10k to get you 20 wings. You have to decide if its worth 10k to save the time it would take you to get 20 wings.

But if you actually pay attention to what is going on in argentina, you’d see that annual inflation rate, according to statistica.com is not even 100%.

What does the price of beeswax in Argentina have to do with the price of Dreughs Wax in Vivec City?

Also according to statistica.com, the unemployment in argentina also been rising for last 5 years. If you think 10% unemployment rate indicates healthy economy, I don’t know what is unhealthy other than venezuela and zimbabwe.

Why are you talking about Argentina?

And the other flaw with your logic is that you claimed hyper inflation only existed on upgrade mats.

I didn't make any such claims. You are reading things that aren't there.

Have you ever read anything on news or books that claim inflation can work on just 1 product and no other product?

Inflation isn't... based on products... at all. It's... based on...economies. Inflation is based on the purchasing power of a currency across the entire economy using the CPI.

1. Wax alloy rosin mundane rune wax price columbine has doubled year to year. Crown more than double year to year. And there are more.
You still have not shown me why inflation indicates healthy economy. Don’t tell me take economic class, tell me why.

2. You have the same purchase power on things sold by npc. You don’t have the same purchase power on things npc don’t sell since same amount gold buy less butterfly wings now than a year ago.

3. Your original second paragraph only shows supply and demand shift exist, supply demand shift and inflation are not mutually exclusive, you yet to give any evidence they are.

4. Argentina is an example where it’s 50% annual inflation and economy is unhealthy. I don’t see how you can claim 100% inflation is healthy economy.

5. You definitely claimed inflation only existed on gold upgrade mats for master writ in the original reply, now you just backtracking it.

1. Almost no one farms runestone nodes. I always see players that will pick every single node but run right by runestone nodes. That is more about Enchanting being the most useless profession in the game and less about inflation. The lack of value and demand for enchanting materials has caused people not to waste their time picking the nodes which leads to lower supply. There are also a lot of new players in the game who are now doing furnishings so they are sucking up the cheaper end of the supply. For everything else, that is because of people doing master writs for CP leveling. The prices will eventually stabilize and go down as the " need to get to 3600 cp" crowd stops sucking up all the crafting materials and master writs.

I am not teaching you how a market economy works. If you want to learn, either research it or take a class on it.

2. The game has gained a lot of players over the last year. Most of these players are heavy on the consumers side and light on the producer side since they are new and have not yet acquired much. So the market is being drained of supply by a large increase in demand. This is causing the prices to go up.

Yes, you have less purchasing power but it still takes the same amount time to farm those items yourself. If you don't agree to the prices being charged you can always acquire the items yourself which is a much better option than trying to change an entire economy to suit your bank account.

3. No one said they were. You are trying use one in the area of the economy the other is used for. About this time in 2020 the demand( and cost) of toilet paper, hand soap, clorox wipes and masks went up in the US. The way you try to explain economics, that means the US experienced hyper inflation. We didn't(my observation as a US citizen). That was the effect of supply and demand not inflation. Replace toilet paper, hand soap, clorox wipes and masks with Rosin, Wax, and Alloys and alchemical ingredients.

4. Since you are insistent on arguing real world economies, let's try this: The growth rate of ESO population over the last 12 months has been about 20%. If you have the same growth rate of a population in the real world, it has pretty devastating effects. This is one reason why countries control the amount of immigrants they take. The average growth rate of a population in the world is 1.1%. Only 7 countries had a growth rate above 3% in 2019. ESO had 20% growth rate in a single year. That threw the economy out of balance and then ZOS took another dump on it by surprise releasing the new CP system after not talking about it for a year. The economy is struggling to keep up not because of inflation, but because the population of ESO is exploding and supply has not caught up with demand yet.

5. Actually what i said was

Every part of the economy in this game is based on supply and demand. The only thing that had hyper inflation was master writ improvement mats and the writs themselves and that is because of U29.

Read all of the words in the sentence. I was specifically talking about HYPER inflation, not inflation and i have already explained multiple ways why prices of everything on traders is currently priced the way it is.

At the end of the day the solution to your problem is always going to be the same. If you don't want to pay the prices on traders then farm the items yourself. The more items you farm yourself the less demand on supply and the lower traders will have to drop prices to get takers. What the economy is experiencing is healthy growth due to an increased number of new players to the game. It is easy to make money in this game if you try. If you want to be picky about how you make money, then you will struggle. If people are making a fortune off alchemy ingredients, then instead of trying to kneecap the economy so you can afford alchemy ingredients, YOU go farm boatloads of them and then sell what you don't need to other players. THEN you use that gold to buy things that are to hard for you to farm ( such as dungeon motifs or specific blueprints you want).

That is how a game economy works. If you don't want to pay for it, and you don't want to acquire it yourself, that is not a flaw in the system... that is a flaw in how you play the game.

harakira wrote: »

We need more gold sink features. Accumulated gold that has nowhere to spend is used for speculation and market control. In some cases this blocks whole gameplay for players on a budget and time constraints. ESO economy was not designed to simulate the real economy.

Yes we do because there are not many gold sinks in the game. Some gold:
* Housing
* Mounts
* Furnishings
* Dyes
* Costumes and other cosmetics
* Pets
* House guests and companions
* Leads

I can go on and on. It would be good to have some stuff like this to spend my millions on that also removes that millions from the game. Just make crown items in these categories better than the gold versions. Like small medium and large houses with notables as crown only.Basic guars, camels, rams, etc that you can get from stablemasters.

Right now most gold is just being swapped constantly between players with only a small percent leaving the game.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.

And why should they remove my only income?

Not everyone does the guild trader thing.

And there's this massive gold sink called the luxury furniture vendor (and housing in general)

and thats not the geatest, very efficient gold sink because many players anyway dont have interest with housing and for many others most of furnitures can be just ugly or not fitting for them

I myself sit on milion and I barely buy anything from this, mostly I buy cheap furnishing if they are cool and it happens to be at best once per month or 2 month, most expsnesive furnishing for 100k? I find to buy maybe one or max 2 per year anyway best most of it just doesnt fit for me to care for that high price anyway

and I would be glad with new more efficient, better gold sink than luxury furnisher which is also only in weekends or for real reduce somewhere gold gain because currently there is to much possibilities for easy gold gain with not much of gold sinks in game
like for example give an option to buy "limited time" homes for insane gold prices - people currently can buy them for gold from others who pays crowns for this - for example current ayelid home for 12k crowns - it is around 8m-9m+ gold in PC EU with current crown-gold ratio, not everyone anyway use services of buying crowns from other players - so make house like this cost maybe 15m gold? huge gold sink for someone hoarding gold who doesnt want to buy it with crowns as anyone else who have interest with buying crowns form someone else would rather buy from someone crowns this house for 8m-9m still giving profit to ZOS while giving huge gold sink for richest players

Hell
Absolutely, For Talos Sake
NO

[snip] There is no Hyper inflation
there is changes in the meta and CP2.0 introduction
Prices will rise!, Period, It's inevitable

Crown exchange Rate will be affecteD by dollar prices in RL
and Dollar is skyrocketing in many places due corona Virus...

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

ForzaRammer wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

There is nothing healthy about price doubling year to year.

What prices have doubled year over year? And why is this not healthy in a virtual economy?

What is your evidence on your claim ‘inflation is a normal part of healthy economy’?

• Take an economics class
• Google???
• Wikipedia
• Ask an economics teacher or professor.

Inflation is a natural occurrence in a healthy economy. A virtual economy does not play by the same exact rules though. I will give you a free lesson in virtual economics though:

1. Gold is literally generated out of thin air unlike real currency which requires some sort of "faith" and backing in that currency by its users.
2. NPCs don't care how much gold is in the game, they buy and sell for the same price now that they did 5 years ago. Likewise the sinks such as housing and gear repair have also never changed.
3. Everything you can buy from a guild trader, you can acquire on your own. I know this for a fact because not only do i acquire everything i can get on guild trader on my own but i also have trading as a major activity in ESO( and formerly Eve Online).

Conclusions:
* Gold has the same purchasing power now as it did 5 years ago for the things that you can't acquire yourself and need to spend gold on.
* Any items in which you think are the victims of inflation or hyper inflation are items you can acquire yourself. Their price is only relevant if you refuse to acquire the items yourself. If you refuse to acquire said items yourself, then you will pay the price that the sellers want, or you will go without.
* Technically speaking based on the evidence i just presented to you, ESO has an inflation level of 0% since gold has the exact same purchasing power now as it did 5 years ago.

Any questions?

You are claiming ur opinion as facts without presenting evidence.

Correction...

* My first paragraph = Opinion
* My second paragraph = Observation
* My third paragraph = Observation followed by opinion.

Observations ARE evidence. Since those are my observations, i can verify that they are factual statements.

To people like u it’s a merely double price year to year, not the 50% every month defined by the economist.

People like me? You mean people who understand economics and has became uber rich in games because of it? You can't hyper inflate one item. Inflation and hyperinflation are measured off a currencies purchasing power against the CPI. The inflation rate in ESO is 0% because X gold will buy the exact same things now, it did 5 years ago. If you use to pay someone 10k for 50 butterfly wings, but now they want 10k for 20 butterfly wings, that isn't inflation. That is supply and demand. You have the choice to get those wings yourself. But you are choosing to pay someone else to get them for you so you can spend your time doing something else. They decided their time is worth 10k to get you 20 wings. You have to decide if its worth 10k to save the time it would take you to get 20 wings.

But if you actually pay attention to what is going on in argentina, you’d see that annual inflation rate, according to statistica.com is not even 100%.

What does the price of beeswax in Argentina have to do with the price of Dreughs Wax in Vivec City?

Also according to statistica.com, the unemployment in argentina also been rising for last 5 years. If you think 10% unemployment rate indicates healthy economy, I don’t know what is unhealthy other than venezuela and zimbabwe.

Why are you talking about Argentina?

And the other flaw with your logic is that you claimed hyper inflation only existed on upgrade mats.

I didn't make any such claims. You are reading things that aren't there.

Have you ever read anything on news or books that claim inflation can work on just 1 product and no other product?

Inflation isn't... based on products... at all. It's... based on...economies. Inflation is based on the purchasing power of a currency across the entire economy using the CPI.

1. Wax alloy rosin mundane rune wax price columbine has doubled year to year. Crown more than double year to year. And there are more.
You still have not shown me why inflation indicates healthy economy. Don’t tell me take economic class, tell me why.

What server are you on? I can’t speak to other servers, but on PC NA, none of that is true. Prices on those mats has always been high, but certainly do not double from year to year and some have been much lower at times.

In fall of 2019, a few months after I started playing the game, chromium sold for up to 120k. At times it has been lower and for the past several months higher, but I can no longer sell above 185k and I expect the price will continue to fall, at least until June. Crowns were often sold around 200:1 and those too have gone up and down since and this year I have bought Crowns from three different people from zone (so not special friend or guild pricing) for 200:1 or even less.

I know of nothing in this game that continually goes up in price.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

harakira wrote: »

We need more gold sink features. Accumulated gold that has nowhere to spend is used for speculation and market control. In some cases this blocks whole gameplay for players on a budget and time constraints. ESO economy was not designed to simulate the real economy.

Yes we do because there are not many gold sinks in the game. Some gold:
* Housing
* Mounts
* Furnishings
* Dyes
* Costumes and other cosmetics
* Pets
* House guests and companions
* Leads

Let's not forget that other major gold sink - guild trader bidding fees.



Hmm, there's a thought - remove the main gold faucets in the game, to encourage people to do Trading for their gold instead... which is only a combination of gold shuffling from player to player, and gold sink (trading fees & trader bids). Keep that up long enough (less faucet, more sink), and you could drain all the gold out of the economy. That doesn't seem like a good plan.


(honestly, I can't think of an MMO I've played, where the amount of gold in the system didn't go up over time, leading to inflation of prices for the Most Desired Goods. Even with the devs continually trying to come up with more gold sinks. Just like players will consume content faster than MMO devs can make it, they'll also farm gold faster than the devs can come up with ways to spend it. That's the nature of an infinite system.)

this. this game actualy has one of the slowest MMO currency inflations I have seen in all the mmo's that I have personaly played. its the one reason I have come to grudgingly accept guild traders over centralized trading house. the cost of materials haven't gone up THAT much if you have been playing long enough to track it. some of the more common materials have had stagnated prices for years now. the only reason i even sell stuff like refined mats is because I just end up with so much of them over the years of playing - might as well do something about it.

some of the goods - prices drop on over time. some - they slowly grow. depends on the state of the game in general and YES the state of what people are farming at any given time. its not what artaeum farmers want me to think. its what I've been observing in my years of playing the game.

I mean... Kuta has been dropping in price for years now. it just recently went back up slightly because people are trying out new builds, but its still not at a level that it was once. rosin, while risen in price, hasn't gotten back up to the level it was at once either. furnishing recipes used to be super expensive, then as people farmed them more and more, prices dropped to almost nothing, and while they have risen a bit recently, likely due to people mainly farming recipes that come from quest rewards rather then random containers, they are still not at a level they used to be once. they are still pretty cheap. cooking recipes, even master writ ones are half the price they used to be even 2 years ago.

so it really does work out to be supply and demand, NOT hyper inflation, so lets not punish people whose gold income comes from game rewards rather then trading, thanks.

P.S. crown prices have remained steady for ages. they conspicuously doubled almost overnight, NOT because of hyper inflation, but because ZoS made houses giftable. couple that with crown houses being limited time only? and its a seller's market, baby.

iksde wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.

And why should they remove my only income?

Not everyone does the guild trader thing.

And there's this massive gold sink called the luxury furniture vendor (and housing in general)

and thats not the geatest, very efficient gold sink because many players anyway dont have interest with housing and for many others most of furnitures can be just ugly or not fitting for them

I myself sit on milion and I barely buy anything from this, mostly I buy cheap furnishing if they are cool and it happens to be at best once per month or 2 month, most expsnesive furnishing for 100k? I find to buy maybe one or max 2 per year anyway best most of it just doesnt fit for me to care for that high price anyway

and I would be glad with new more efficient, better gold sink than luxury furnisher which is also only in weekends or for real reduce somewhere gold gain because currently there is to much possibilities for easy gold gain with not much of gold sinks in game
like for example give an option to buy "limited time" homes for insane gold prices - people currently can buy them for gold from others who pays crowns for this - for example current ayelid home for 12k crowns - it is around 8m-9m+ gold in PC EU with current crown-gold ratio, not everyone anyway use services of buying crowns from other players - so make house like this cost maybe 15m gold? huge gold sink for someone hoarding gold who doesnt want to buy it with crowns as anyone else who have interest with buying crowns form someone else would rather buy from someone crowns this house for 8m-9m still giving profit to ZOS while giving huge gold sink for richest players

Buying crown with gold is not a gold sink, the gold doesn’t get removed from circulation.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Auth3nticGlitch wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are those really the ways most players gain gold?

When I think of quick ways to gain lots of gold through gameplay, I don't ever recommend "Yo, play PVP so if your alliance wins you too can make 19,000 gold every month!" I think my personal "Thanks for participating!" Reward from the Grand Warlord is usually around 3,000 gold a month?

Just saying.

Haha right? Whenever I need to make gold I’ll go farming mats, overland sets, daily quests which provide motifs, recipes etc and sell all of it. Not to mention deconstruction and refining jewellery mats so I get the grains/plating I can sell.
The last resort is fishing for perfect roe or psijic satchels but fishing is hardly rewardable especially considering I can filet 600 fish and due to rngesus sometimes only get 2 perfect roe, which takes hours of fishing to get.
Ngl, I hate the prices being so high when I go to purchase something but the prices I can sell the items I farm is starting to balance everything out for me.

Gaining mats or motif is not gaining gold directly.
It does not contribute to inflation.
Only direct gold gain out of thin air cause inflation.

Yes, but they also demonstrate part of the issue with restricting gold generation from gameplay. Farming stuff to sell to other players may not be gold generation, but it's a lot more profitable than any source of gold generation from gameplay. Players who farm stuff to sell will always by able to accumulate gold through trading - its gold transfer, not gold creation, but those players won't lack for gold to buy what they want. On the other hand, it's the players who typically get their gold from gameplay who have much less gold and who complain that their meager gold doesn't let them buy what they need.


When you throttle the ability of players to get gold from the Justice System, Antiquities, or Crafting Writs, or questing, you also throttle the ability of players to make decent amounts of gold without selling stuff to other players. That's immediately harmful to players who don't like trading guilds. It's secondarily harmful to players who don't like to be self-sufficient farmers, since they still need stuff, but now they can't get the gold through gameplay to buy what they need except through even greater effort.

Most of my gold comes through trading materials, at this point. If you throttle gold from gameplay, it's not going to hurt me much, because I have reserves and I'm willing to farm mats that would otherwise be a big gold outlay. But at 8 million gold, I'm rich compared to the average player.

But for new players, throttling their ability to get gold through gameplay is only going to force them into farming stuff for sale or leave them perpetually gold-poor. More importantly, from a game design standpoint, it takes away rewards from normal gameplay, and instead encourages players to join in the trading minigame of gold transfer between players.


- I say this as someone who, when I was a brand new player terrified of joining a guild, made my gold by harvesting mats and selling them to the NPC vendors. Yeah, feel free to laugh. Hey, a stack of 200 iron sold for 800 gold! Similarly, when I made a brand new character on the EU server for a day, my starting gold came from stealing stuff in Vulkhel Guard and hawking it to the fence. So seriously, when you throttle sources of gold from gameplay, players who don't want to join guilds are going to get hit hard. New players are going to struggle to gain gold unless they quickly start farming accessible stuff like reagents to sell and join a trading guild.

Gold transfer should be a important part of game play.

Trading guild is a system unique to this game. It should be featured more.

Nerfing direct gold gain make trade guild more important.

This is a good thing, show the alternative to a boring auction house.

Claims hyper inflation is morally wrong
Also claims gold gain being monopolized by a few trading guilds is good.

I don't follow the logic here tbh. Please make it make sense.

Trade guild don’t gain gold directly. I see no issue with any indirect gold gain.

Balance issue possibly exist. But that’s for a different discussion.

But the idea of inflation being morally wrong is it concentrates too much power into the hands of a few. While smaller people make peanuts that aren't worth much and can't buy the goods they need. At least for most people.

Making traders overly important does the same thing to an even higher extreme.

So how is one morally correct and one not.

Then increase the sales tax

ForzaRammer wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.

And why should they remove my only income?

Not everyone does the guild trader thing.

And there's this massive gold sink called the luxury furniture vendor (and housing in general)

and thats not the geatest, very efficient gold sink because many players anyway dont have interest with housing and for many others most of furnitures can be just ugly or not fitting for them

I myself sit on milion and I barely buy anything from this, mostly I buy cheap furnishing if they are cool and it happens to be at best once per month or 2 month, most expsnesive furnishing for 100k? I find to buy maybe one or max 2 per year anyway best most of it just doesnt fit for me to care for that high price anyway

and I would be glad with new more efficient, better gold sink than luxury furnisher which is also only in weekends or for real reduce somewhere gold gain because currently there is to much possibilities for easy gold gain with not much of gold sinks in game
like for example give an option to buy "limited time" homes for insane gold prices - people currently can buy them for gold from others who pays crowns for this - for example current ayelid home for 12k crowns - it is around 8m-9m+ gold in PC EU with current crown-gold ratio, not everyone anyway use services of buying crowns from other players - so make house like this cost maybe 15m gold? huge gold sink for someone hoarding gold who doesnt want to buy it with crowns as anyone else who have interest with buying crowns form someone else would rather buy from someone crowns this house for 8m-9m still giving profit to ZOS while giving huge gold sink for richest players

Buying crown with gold is not a gold sink, the gold doesn’t get removed from circulation.

you didnt understood

what I mean is that ZOS wont be at loss of this gold sink

as currently in EU cronw-gold ration new house for 12k crown woudl be around 8m-9m yes? make this home avaible to buy for 15m without need of other players in this exchange

it will be huge gold sink for rich players who dont want interract with other players or dont whant risk for scam, rich players who dont want to buy crowns anyway, themselves or from toher players - additional gold sink for them

for players whoa re already at buying crowns from others - it is cheaper to buy these 12k crowns from someone for 8m-9m gold even with broker from discord than for 15m ingame withot need of any other player - so ZOS wont be at loss of money as crown still would be sold and there would be additional gold sink for rich players who doesnt buy crowns anyway while also giving them chance to buy things they cant right now because they doesnt want to risk or even just interract with other players this way

Rich people in the real world can't just sit on a bi pile of money

Offshores say hi.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Auth3nticGlitch wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are those really the ways most players gain gold?

When I think of quick ways to gain lots of gold through gameplay, I don't ever recommend "Yo, play PVP so if your alliance wins you too can make 19,000 gold every month!" I think my personal "Thanks for participating!" Reward from the Grand Warlord is usually around 3,000 gold a month?

Just saying.

Haha right? Whenever I need to make gold I’ll go farming mats, overland sets, daily quests which provide motifs, recipes etc and sell all of it. Not to mention deconstruction and refining jewellery mats so I get the grains/plating I can sell.
The last resort is fishing for perfect roe or psijic satchels but fishing is hardly rewardable especially considering I can filet 600 fish and due to rngesus sometimes only get 2 perfect roe, which takes hours of fishing to get.
Ngl, I hate the prices being so high when I go to purchase something but the prices I can sell the items I farm is starting to balance everything out for me.

Gaining mats or motif is not gaining gold directly.
It does not contribute to inflation.
Only direct gold gain out of thin air cause inflation.

Yes, but they also demonstrate part of the issue with restricting gold generation from gameplay. Farming stuff to sell to other players may not be gold generation, but it's a lot more profitable than any source of gold generation from gameplay. Players who farm stuff to sell will always by able to accumulate gold through trading - its gold transfer, not gold creation, but those players won't lack for gold to buy what they want. On the other hand, it's the players who typically get their gold from gameplay who have much less gold and who complain that their meager gold doesn't let them buy what they need.


When you throttle the ability of players to get gold from the Justice System, Antiquities, or Crafting Writs, or questing, you also throttle the ability of players to make decent amounts of gold without selling stuff to other players. That's immediately harmful to players who don't like trading guilds. It's secondarily harmful to players who don't like to be self-sufficient farmers, since they still need stuff, but now they can't get the gold through gameplay to buy what they need except through even greater effort.

Most of my gold comes through trading materials, at this point. If you throttle gold from gameplay, it's not going to hurt me much, because I have reserves and I'm willing to farm mats that would otherwise be a big gold outlay. But at 8 million gold, I'm rich compared to the average player.

But for new players, throttling their ability to get gold through gameplay is only going to force them into farming stuff for sale or leave them perpetually gold-poor. More importantly, from a game design standpoint, it takes away rewards from normal gameplay, and instead encourages players to join in the trading minigame of gold transfer between players.


- I say this as someone who, when I was a brand new player terrified of joining a guild, made my gold by harvesting mats and selling them to the NPC vendors. Yeah, feel free to laugh. Hey, a stack of 200 iron sold for 800 gold! Similarly, when I made a brand new character on the EU server for a day, my starting gold came from stealing stuff in Vulkhel Guard and hawking it to the fence. So seriously, when you throttle sources of gold from gameplay, players who don't want to join guilds are going to get hit hard. New players are going to struggle to gain gold unless they quickly start farming accessible stuff like reagents to sell and join a trading guild.

Gold transfer should be a important part of game play.

Trading guild is a system unique to this game. It should be featured more.

Nerfing direct gold gain make trade guild more important.

This is a good thing, show the alternative to a boring auction house.

Claims hyper inflation is morally wrong
Also claims gold gain being monopolized by a few trading guilds is good.

I don't follow the logic here tbh. Please make it make sense.

Trade guild don’t gain gold directly. I see no issue with any indirect gold gain.

Balance issue possibly exist. But that’s for a different discussion.

But the idea of inflation being morally wrong is it concentrates too much power into the hands of a few. While smaller people make peanuts that aren't worth much and can't buy the goods they need. At least for most people.

Making traders overly important does the same thing to an even higher extreme.

So how is one morally correct and one not.

Then increase the sales tax

So you do approve of gold sinks being applied to gold transfers via trading, then?


Let's consider my case: over the last few years, when I farm at my peak, I can sell around 1 million gold worth of raw materials on a guild traders in a week. That's all gold transfer, and I'm not adding any gold to the economy since I'm not vendoring those items.

Out of that, ZOS has the following gold sinks:
A 1% listing fee, taken off the top: 10,000 gold
A 3.5% transaction sink: 35,000 gold
A 3.5% guild tax, which almost always gets folded into the weekly trader bid: 35,000 gold

In short, for every 1 million in gold transfer, ZOS takes out approx 80,000 gold from the game. That's not counting the extra money they get from the trader bids, because the bids aren't funded solely from the sales tax. None of that was generated gold, it's just a straight gold sink pulling from trade/gold transfers.

Hmm, out of curiosity, if that same character were doing all her writs every day for a week, how much gold would she make? If I generate about 670 gold per Writ on that character, I'm generating 32,830 gold a week.


Given those numbers, in which ZOS takes 8% of every trade transaction as part of their gold sinks, how much would you want to increase the sales tax?

VaranisArano wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Auth3nticGlitch wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are those really the ways most players gain gold?

When I think of quick ways to gain lots of gold through gameplay, I don't ever recommend "Yo, play PVP so if your alliance wins you too can make 19,000 gold every month!" I think my personal "Thanks for participating!" Reward from the Grand Warlord is usually around 3,000 gold a month?

Just saying.

Haha right? Whenever I need to make gold I’ll go farming mats, overland sets, daily quests which provide motifs, recipes etc and sell all of it. Not to mention deconstruction and refining jewellery mats so I get the grains/plating I can sell.
The last resort is fishing for perfect roe or psijic satchels but fishing is hardly rewardable especially considering I can filet 600 fish and due to rngesus sometimes only get 2 perfect roe, which takes hours of fishing to get.
Ngl, I hate the prices being so high when I go to purchase something but the prices I can sell the items I farm is starting to balance everything out for me.

Gaining mats or motif is not gaining gold directly.
It does not contribute to inflation.
Only direct gold gain out of thin air cause inflation.

Yes, but they also demonstrate part of the issue with restricting gold generation from gameplay. Farming stuff to sell to other players may not be gold generation, but it's a lot more profitable than any source of gold generation from gameplay. Players who farm stuff to sell will always by able to accumulate gold through trading - its gold transfer, not gold creation, but those players won't lack for gold to buy what they want. On the other hand, it's the players who typically get their gold from gameplay who have much less gold and who complain that their meager gold doesn't let them buy what they need.


When you throttle the ability of players to get gold from the Justice System, Antiquities, or Crafting Writs, or questing, you also throttle the ability of players to make decent amounts of gold without selling stuff to other players. That's immediately harmful to players who don't like trading guilds. It's secondarily harmful to players who don't like to be self-sufficient farmers, since they still need stuff, but now they can't get the gold through gameplay to buy what they need except through even greater effort.

Most of my gold comes through trading materials, at this point. If you throttle gold from gameplay, it's not going to hurt me much, because I have reserves and I'm willing to farm mats that would otherwise be a big gold outlay. But at 8 million gold, I'm rich compared to the average player.

But for new players, throttling their ability to get gold through gameplay is only going to force them into farming stuff for sale or leave them perpetually gold-poor. More importantly, from a game design standpoint, it takes away rewards from normal gameplay, and instead encourages players to join in the trading minigame of gold transfer between players.


- I say this as someone who, when I was a brand new player terrified of joining a guild, made my gold by harvesting mats and selling them to the NPC vendors. Yeah, feel free to laugh. Hey, a stack of 200 iron sold for 800 gold! Similarly, when I made a brand new character on the EU server for a day, my starting gold came from stealing stuff in Vulkhel Guard and hawking it to the fence. So seriously, when you throttle sources of gold from gameplay, players who don't want to join guilds are going to get hit hard. New players are going to struggle to gain gold unless they quickly start farming accessible stuff like reagents to sell and join a trading guild.

Gold transfer should be a important part of game play.

Trading guild is a system unique to this game. It should be featured more.

Nerfing direct gold gain make trade guild more important.

This is a good thing, show the alternative to a boring auction house.

Claims hyper inflation is morally wrong
Also claims gold gain being monopolized by a few trading guilds is good.

I don't follow the logic here tbh. Please make it make sense.

Trade guild don’t gain gold directly. I see no issue with any indirect gold gain.

Balance issue possibly exist. But that’s for a different discussion.

But the idea of inflation being morally wrong is it concentrates too much power into the hands of a few. While smaller people make peanuts that aren't worth much and can't buy the goods they need. At least for most people.

Making traders overly important does the same thing to an even higher extreme.

So how is one morally correct and one not.

Then increase the sales tax

So you do approve of gold sinks being applied to gold transfers via trading, then?


Let's consider my case: over the last few years, when I farm at my peak, I can sell around 1 million gold worth of raw materials on a guild traders in a week. That's all gold transfer, and I'm not adding any gold to the economy since I'm not vendoring those items.

Out of that, ZOS has the following gold sinks:
A 1% listing fee, taken off the top: 10,000 gold
A 3.5% transaction sink: 35,000 gold
A 3.5% guild tax, which almost always gets folded into the weekly trader bid: 35,000 gold

In short, for every 1 million in gold transfer, ZOS takes out approx 80,000 gold from the game. That's not counting the extra money they get from the trader bids, because the bids aren't funded solely from the sales tax. None of that was generated gold, it's just a straight gold sink pulling from trade/gold transfers.

Hmm, out of curiosity, if that same character were doing all her writs every day for a week, how much gold would she make? If I generate about 670 gold per Writ on that character, I'm generating 32,830 gold a week.


Given those numbers, in which ZOS takes 8% of every trade transaction as part of their gold sinks, how much would you want to increase the sales tax?

I never said gold sink must only apply to direct gold gain. It’s just the direct gold gain ones are intuitive to think about.

Hi, I don't belong to any guilds, let alone a trader guild. I am not contributing to your hyperinflation in any way, shape or form, so please keep your paws, hands or claws out of my sources of income, thanks.

"1. Wax alloy rosin mundane rune wax price columbine has doubled year to year. Crown more than double year to year. And there are more."

You or someone else made this exact claim a while back and were shown graphs that prove prices move up and down but don't continue to increase in price. 2018 Rosin prices were around 2.5K. I can see Rosin priced now at 2.4K. I admit that is low end right now but we are in an upcycle right now because of changes in the game. I would bet at the end of this event the price will drop.
If you are looking at Tamriel Trade Center for price info remember that is what people want for the items not what people may be willing to pay. There is no proof of any significant inflation in the game.

Someone else in this thread mentioned maybe add-ons were the cause of the problem on PC. They suggested "if People see all the prices and go with the highest, pushing the average up". I've found the opposite to be true in the guilds I am in for most items. For all but the rare stuff people list under the average to get the quicker sell. They don't want to take their slots pricing stuff the same as a few hundred other players chancing it just sits there.

You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The solution you offer would actually create a problem. Making it harder to make gold at this point in the game would mean newer players can never catch up.