SilverBride wrote: »

jtm1018 wrote: »

Just put veteran mode on overland already.

We already had veteran overland. It didn't work. They got rid of it with One Tamriel. They are not going to bring back something that previously failed.

Old Craglorn has been used ad nauseam as a counter argument against any sort of veteran instance or adjustments to Overland gameplay.
I think many people here have pointed out why it’s a flawed argument at this point.

1. Old Craglorn had numerous problems besides it being hard and that using it as an example of a “veteran zone” is not accurate.

craglorn was the product of a VERY, VERY different version of ESO. Full stop. It is in no way applicable to the current experience that max / high level players generally have and for what incentives exist today for desiring to complete overland content in the first place.

2. What people have proposed is almost nothing like Old Craglorn, as their ideas still hav a focus on solo play - No one is asking for forced grouping like Craglorn had.

3. There has to be a better compromise between Old Craglorn and what we have now.

Yeah, we have to ask “do we really want all zones to be as easy as a bleakrock?”

I get that people do not want Old Craglorn, but there has to be a better compromise...

Because the way it’s currently set up just isn’t engaging for the majority of the experience.
And again not all of us are saying we want everything to be as hard as an endgame dungeon or trial - we just want to be able to enjoy our solo questing and story experiences.

it’s great for some new players just getting into the game...we’ve said this. The problem is that it’s the majority of the content and it’s appeal is mostly to new people.

This is why people have proposed a separate instance with higher difficulty and some adjustments to mechanics.

And the self nerf argument has been addressed again and again and again and again.

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We already had veteran overland. It didn't work. They got rid of it with One Tamriel. They are not going to bring back something that previously failed.

Old Craglorn has been used ad nauseam as a counter argument against any sort of veteran instance or adjustments to Overland gameplay.

Where did I say anything about old Craglorn? I am talking about Veteran overland.

Before One Tamriel every faction could only play their own zones, and only with others in their faction. Once those zones were completed you got a quest called Cadwell's Silver. (This still exists but not as a required path for leveling any more.)

Cadwell's Silver sent you to one of the other faction's zones, but they weren't the same ones that faction started in. They were veteran level, and the difficulty was much higher. After those you then got Cadwell's Gold for the last zones, which was harder still.

It was a nightmare. I just remember dying all the time to overland mobs while trying to quest and enjoy the story. I only did it once.

It was after that they introduced old Craglorn, and that is when I quit for a few years. I only came back after they fixed that mess with One Tamriel.

So yes we once had veteran overland and it was removed for a reason.

Even in the case of Pre-One Tamriel was a cluster of different problems like Old Veteran Rank system. Which was very flawed and skewed as the devs themselves said which is why it was done away and replaced with CP.

I think there is a misconception about what the old system was like.

Original vet zones were a mess, not because they spit the player base into 2-3 groups, because they actually got split into 9 different groups.

Like you said;
Before OT, you could only play with people in the same faction. The Faction you chose determined the level of all the zones and it was different for each side. Different alliances had different zones at different difficulties.
So for if you chose EP then their zones were 1-50, and Veteran rank order went from DC to AD.
Meanwhile AD Veteran ranks went from EP to DC
DC Veteran Ranks went from AD to EP
(That may not be the entirely correct order but you get the point)

The Old Veteran zones failed for more reasons than just being hard.

That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try making an overland that has engaging gameplay because something they tried in the past failed for very different reasons.

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The Old Veteran zones failed for more reasons than just being hard.

That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try making an overland that has engaging gameplay because something they tried in the past failed for very different reasons.

Overland is engaging enough just how it is for the majority of players. If you want a challenge do the end game content that was developed for that reason.

Except it isn’t. People have stated the reasons as to why it is not.

People have already explained that their desire for engaging overland and for the main story/questing experience does not mean they are asking for more group content like dungeons and trials.

We are generally happy with the state of Endgame, it’s fun.
We don’t enjoy the rest of the majority of the content- The general questing experience - For the various reasons I do not have to say again because you can read yourself on this very thread.

You keep on saying it’s fine and people keep on telling you that it’s not and they state the reasons why - only for you to say it’s fine again.

There cannot be a conversation if you are not willing to listen
——————————————————
Edited for grammar and spelling

If you talk to the MMORPG community they all agree that ESO has the best questing in the mmorpg realm.

They on the other hand all say how the combat sucks, feels floaty and they hate animation canceling.

Could it be that some people are just dissatisfied with the combat non flashy feeling and how they just feel floaty and unimpactful ?

Saying ESO has poor a questing experience is like saying WOW has bad raiding.

Iccotak wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The Old Veteran zones failed for more reasons than just being hard.

That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try making an overland that has engaging gameplay because something they tried in the past failed for very different reasons.

Overland is engaging enough just how it is for the majority of players. If you want a challenge do the end game content that was developed for that reason.

Except it isn’t. People have stated the reasons as to why it is not.

People have already explained that their desire for engaging overland and for the main story/questing experience does not mean they are asking for more group content like dungeons and trials.

We are generally happy with the state of Endgame, it’s fun.
We don’t enjoy the rest of the majority of the content- The general questing experience - For the various reasons I do not have to say again because you can read yourself on this very thread.

You keep on saying it’s fine and people keep on telling you that it’s not and they state the reasons why - only for you to say it’s fine again.

There cannot be a conversation if you are not willing to listen
——————————————————
Edited for grammar and spelling

If you talk to the MMORPG community they all agree that ESO has the best questing in the mmorpg realm.

They on the other hand all say how the combat sucks, feels floaty and they hate animation canceling.

Could it be that some people are just dissatisfied with the combat non flashy feeling and how they just feel floaty and unimpactful ?

Saying ESO has poor a questing experience is like saying WOW has bad raiding.

Have you read what others here on this thread have said?
Because this counterpoint feels very disconnected from my people have actually said.

Nowhere is anyone criticizing a “lack of flashy animation”.
No one is discussing problems with ESO‘s combat system, as many of us enjoy instances of combat in the game - The issue is specifically with overland gameplay and the gameplay experience of the main quest.

What I have said specifically is that the general Overland populace are incredibly weak and incapable - and that once you reach about level 10 all fights in Overland feel about the same.

We generally agree that the writing is good however we think the writing is undermined when their big bad villain is a mediocre encounter with poor mechanics that don’t engage us.

Which is why people have proposed a separate harder instance.

What many of us have pointed out is that gameplay and story should go hand-in-hand, and we feel that engaging gameplay and engaging story have been made mutually exclusive.

That has been a consistent complaint, not only in this thread but throughout many other threads that have brought up this topic.

What I am saying is maybe looking from outside, people who played eso would say the whole feeling of combat sucks.

What if the bigger picture is that some players are not satisfied at all of the floating combat in eso.

I remember playing Skyrim with an 1 hit kill OP sorc, every mob and boss was trivial, but the whole fun aspect was aiming my 1 m ice crystal at the mobs.

I killed everything in 1 hit and it felt good.

Do you not think that if this was a viable use of Zos’ time and resources they would have done this by now?

They can see just how many players bother with ‘harder’ stuff - as was pointed out upthread, the completion rate for dungeons on console is something like 0.5%.

No company is going to waste time & money on something for that small number of players.

New servers just for vet instances? Never going to happen. We need new servers just for the game as it is, let alone for an instance that few will use.

Some sort of toggle? Again this would take time & money. And no-one has clearly shown how precisely this would work.

Perhaps it might be better to address the ridiculous power creep and narrow focus on max dps?

I appreciate your frustration but I doubt it is going to change.

BrownChicken wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Do you not think that if this was a viable use of Zos’ time and resources they would have done this by now? They can see just how many players bother with ‘harder’ stuff - as was pointed out upthread, the completion rate for dungeons on console is something like 0.5%.

Do you understand that this is very bad?

Very bad how?

For the game? Possibly. But it suggests that despite what some on here think, most players are fine with the level of overland, and that it is only a significantly small number of players that want it all to be harder.

BlueRaven wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

And overland not engaging players, by having no situations that require people to branch out and learn, by having content that can be cleared with so little effort, players don't learn to learn. If you face challenges you need to try different things, that's how players learn things. How many players enter 4 man dungeons for the first time clueless on what a stun is, or how to use food, because overland never encouraged them to try?

"inexpericenced on mechanics and i simply do not know the game well enough" is a direct reason one of them said for their question. Overland does nothing to prepare people, if people are engaged they learn, an npc mage who spends 20s of a 21s fight picking their nose doesn't teach anything.

“Not knowing the game well enough” is exactly the reason why overland is difficult for new players, but easier for people with experience. How is making overland more difficult in any way more helpful?
Vet players have experience, they have content specifically made for players with experience, do that.

That just highlights the devs failure to properly introduce mechanics / have a sufficient tutorial for new players. The problem is kinda glaring on the elswyr tutorial. Sure it shows you how yo heavy attack, block, interrupt. but does nothing to explain how food buffs are important, using light,hvys with class and weapon skills. Then to top if all off, you are fighting a dragon. Probably blows all previous lessons out the window because "Cool, I'm fighting a dragon!"

Engaging the player with mechanics that require a bit of skill and growing the need to use those skills leads to ....better players.

Mayrael wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, I try to not die at all - a hero isn't a hero if he/she has died over and over and over again in my books. When I hear that people die several times per hour, where is the hero-part in that?

It's not about not dying but about keep going despite the difficulties. You want to go this way? Ok. There is no courage without fear, there is no respect when there is no difficulty, there is no hero when there is no risk of dying.

This.

The story loses all value when you completely demolish everything in your path with zero effort. It's pretty much a universal truth accepted by humans across time. Even going back thousands of years the quintessential archetype of the hero that has lasted millenia consists of various difficulties being set in their way, setbacks, and struggling to overcome them which makes reaching the final conclusion fulfilling.

Humans are very aware that anything worth having is worth struggling for which is how you reach the end content and fulfilled. You'll meet a lot of people in life that don't grasp this and will go through life doing the bare minimum to get by. Never trying to learn something new or accepting new responsibilities. Being mediocre to poor at their job for decades. You'll notice these people also tend to be miserable and complain a lot about everything.

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

And overland not engaging players, by having no situations that require people to branch out and learn, by having content that can be cleared with so little effort, players don't learn to learn. If you face challenges you need to try different things, that's how players learn things. How many players enter 4 man dungeons for the first time clueless on what a stun is, or how to use food, because overland never encouraged them to try?

"inexpericenced on mechanics and i simply do not know the game well enough" is a direct reason one of them said for their question. Overland does nothing to prepare people, if people are engaged they learn, an npc mage who spends 20s of a 21s fight picking their nose doesn't teach anything.

“Not knowing the game well enough” is exactly the reason why overland is difficult for new players, but easier for people with experience. How is making overland more difficult in any way more helpful?
Vet players have experience, they have content specifically made for players with experience, do that.

That just highlights the devs failure to properly introduce mechanics / have a sufficient tutorial for new players. The problem is kinda glaring on the elswyr tutorial. Sure it shows you how yo heavy attack, block, interrupt. but does nothing to explain how food buffs are important, using light,hvys with class and weapon skills. Then to top if all off, you are fighting a dragon. Probably blows all previous lessons out the window because "Cool, I'm fighting a dragon!"

Engaging the player with mechanics that require a bit of skill and growing the need to use those skills leads to ....better players.

I disagree, I don't want to have to play to what someone feels is a standard that everyone should play the way they do. People keep throwing around terms like teaching players how to play? Wait a minute I am not here to play how others want me to play. I am here to have fun playing. I don't feel that anyone should demand I learn about weaving or skill or whatever it is they think I should be doing. When someone pays my sub then I might let them tell me how to play. As far a food overland doesn't need to teach me that. We had level areas we had silver and gold we had craglorn all of those didn't work. Making a new player frustrated is worse than having easier content. People who claim to be veteran players have experience. Am I a veteran I don't think so even though I have been here seven years. I have step foot in one dungeon in seven years. I don't care for toxic players. Also it's not just about new players many many more people do not touch harder content than do because of imposed standards by the community. This whole thread is not clear either, some people want overland to go back to being hard making it hard to progress for new people and casual players,some people want game mechanics that are not meant to be in overland content, some people want instances or a slider ( which I've only seen in single player games) while ignoring the majority of the player base. But than claiming people quit because it's too easy, when I know for a fact just the opposite happened when we had silver and gold, tedious and craglorn totally group play and the only way to progress at the time because there were not many dungeons in the game at the time.

This just keeps going around in circles. With a hand full of players wanting harder content I just feel we can keep having this conversation or find actual solutions that do not impose upon others who are happy with overland content. Just remember there are more casual players than those who are hardcore. The term veteran player is not accurate either.