The real problem with combat in Overland

WaltherCarraway

Stonefalls back in 2014 was pretty crazy.

Rescorla_ESO

I wish the solo PVE in ESO was at a minimum similar in challenge to the combat in Skyrim on Adept difficulty. Adept in Skyrim was not overly hard but also not so mind numbingly simplistic that a trained monkey hitting the same keys over and over could succeed.

As for a solution here is a compromise. Keep the NPCs in overland PVE simple and easy. Make all delves and interior areas used for PVE quests solo instances. Allow the player to choose between Normal and Veteran difficulty for all PVE solo instances. Provide a reward for doing PVE on Veteran difficulty such as double the amount of Experience points gained or like Undaunted pledges giving 3 keys instead of 1.

Morgha_Kul

Hallothiel wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I get it you don’t like the overland zones. “Too easy.” And casual players don’t like dungeons, trials, or arenas. So... Should we make easy solo versions of vet trials, dungeons, and arenas?

There is easy mode versions of trials. Its called normal, doesnt have mechanics and can be tanked by a 19k health sorc.

By you. And a few others. But most players cannot solo a normal dungeon. And it sounds a bit arrogant to suggest otherwise.

There may be a vocal minority on the Forums that want this, but that works out as a very very very small proportion of players.

Whether different servers, instances or sliders, as has already been pointed out, this will all take developer resources - and for what? To keep a few people ‘happy’.

(But then the complaints would be about dead areas or demanding increased loot for doing ‘harder’ stuff or something else...)

Overland is what it is.

But my suggestion upthread for proper individual instances of quest end bosses of varying difficulty is a workable to that ‘issue’, imho 😀

Indeed. I don't do normal dungeons in GROUPS, because I don't find 20-30 team wipes any fun at all, nor do I enjoy running blindly into every map because someone who's already done it can't be arsed to wait for the group to keep up with him. I mean, they made these gorgeous maps with incredible scenery... that we never get to see or explore because someone is already at the NEXT encounter.

Morgha_Kul

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Personally, I wish there was LESS overland combat (truly overland, not counting delves, ruins, public dungeons, etc.) but that what enemies there were scaled better. The areas where we meet wandering merchants and other NPCs would do well with less random monsters, or at least fewer that attack unless you invade their space or attack first. But where most NPCs fear to tread, yes, I would like to see combat be more significant, at least major enemies.

Actually, I don't mind the number of enemies in the world. You want to see a REAL carpet of enemies, try Lord of the Rings Online. I love that game, but boy is it tedious trying to GET anywhere.

Again, I love One Tamriel, it allows every zone to remain challenging at all levels. I can go back to Stonefalls, for example, or Bleak Rock, or anywhere else, and not find everything utterly trivial (in theory). The problem is the sameness of all the enemies. Mudcrabs should be what they are... but if that's how a Mudcrab is, a Durzog should be substantially stronger... and it's not, at present. As we said, it's just a matter of tweaking things, not a total revamp.

Vermintide

I dunno, I think there's a pretty good scale to it now. Overland world bosses in Summerset, Elsewyr and the new dragons, harrowstorms etc are very challenging when faced with small numbers of players; and soloing them like we do dolmens seems like a herculean feat. Killing those gryphons or the crazy swordsman as a duo with my gf felt pretty satisfying- I could probably have managed it alone, eventually, but it would have just been an exercise in patience, not fun.

Of course, being a MMO, these challenges will always be rendered trivial when you have thirty other people helping out, but that's sort of the point, isn't it? You don't want to make content that's flat impossible for some players to complete when they're playing a year later and the general population has moved on to the new latest thing. This is why I always make a point of travelling to help out players who are stuck trying to kill a Wrothgar world boss at 3am with nobody around to help.

FWIW I think more stuff like Maelstrom and Vatesharan would be very welcome.

The real problem is this is an MMO, so there's really a limit to how reaction-based you can make the combat. That is, how "realistic" you can make it. The game already suffers from borderline unplayable lag at times which make attack weaving inconsistent, makes you die to attacks you were definitely blocking, etc... The mechanics have to work within that limitation and they already kinda stretch the limits of what's possible. You can't have true action with 100ms+ delay on every single input.

To really address this would probably require a next-gen sequel on a new engine.

SeaGtGruff

I decided to do the event dailies on one alt per server in addition to my mains-- a different alt each day, so they all get a shot at earning the achievements.

I have not bothered to repurchase any active skills on my alts yet, just whatever racial passives they qualify for at their level, plus any crafting-related skills that they'd had before the reset.

Most of my alts don't even have decent gear, because some of them are still wearing whatever gear they'd acquired during the tutorial and the escape from Coldharbor, and since then they've leveled up from doing daily crafting writs such that their gear is 10 to 20 levels behind their current level.

Anywho, I ran into Ilessan Tower on my alt with nothing at all on my skill bar, no restore potions quickslotted, etc. And I got killed several times by the "trash" mobs in there, for obvious reasons, which reaffirms my belief that the primary reason why overland content seems so incredibly easy to most players is because of their slotted skills.

Getting killed repeatedly was actually kind of fun. As it is, I enjoy playing on my low-DPS mains and having the fights take a bit longer, but they never get killed except by powerful bosses. Getting killed by trash mobs made the simple event quest a lot more challenging.

CP5

BlueRaven wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!

if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc

we all have that ability to make things a challenge.

The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.

It’s not an effective solution.

Then they really don’t want challenging combat, do they?

Judging by how the forums blew a fuse when they updated the loot in dragon star, and “everyone’s hard work” was “ruined”, wanting to do challenging combat is not what players really want or they would have loved any excuse to go back in again. They just wanted the loot rewards.

Overland combat is meant for everyone, particularly new players. The overland is not meant to revolve around people who solo dungeons.

At least 3 of the 4 dlcs each year have content that is directly intended for hard core players.

Vet overland will need dedicated servers and balance time spent by developers. That costs $$$ and I am sorry judging by how many people have “godslayer”, there is not enough players to justify the cost.

Overland mobs are so simplistic and weak that they put up no resistance to experienced players, doesn't matter if I am fully geared up or using nothing, they are not any more engaging, they just take longer to kill.

Overland content is a majority of the game, including the main quest lines, but people like me can't enjoy them because the big bad and his army are nothing but tissues waiting to be pushed aside, killing any sense of threat and sapping the story of all narrative weight (videogames are supposed to be played, not watched).

Newer dungeons being restricted to having challenging fights only for final bosses, with only the newer trend for a hard mode per boss is laughably small, every year we get 8 hard mode fights (2 dungeons with 1 and 2 dungeons with 3) whereas there is a large and small zone full of content but with the main interactions with those quest, the combat, so lacking they are off putting.

And as for old Craglorn as others have mentioned, the reason why that failed was because zos put mob groups to the size that you were intended to need a 4 man group to face them but the mobs themselves were just as dumb, and between the slog of fighting through hoards of boring enemies you also had to quest together form the start else different instances would end your run early.

And incase anyone has forgotten to mention it, such a simplistic overland fails to prepare players for anything else, causing their dungeon runs to end in disappointment, or is causes new players to think all of eso is that boring and they leave before realizing overland is the odd ball out as far as this games design is concerned.

CP5

jle30303 wrote: »

The point being that, if you find certain content too easy, the problem isn't that the content should be more difficult, it's that YOU should move to the more difficult content. If you don't have the skills or the gear for that... that's what having easy content to gain the skill points, as well as the levels, is FOR.

That mentality, that by having gotten better at playing the game and knowing how to play, I should just leave overland forever, forgoing all the story content, because I had the gall to learn, is kind of insulting. I do all the trials, the dungeons, and while we get them at a decent pace the majority of the game is overland and it has a story to tell. I want to experience that story, but the illusion fails instantly when the big bad dares to stand in the same room as me without plot armor to save them. The only major quest chain I've done since summerset was elsweyr because at least the dragons were an actual threat, but without a meaningful amount of resistance from an enemy worth fighting, every quest turns into a fetch quest with overly dramatic npcs crying about me needing to save the world. It makes saving the world turn into a chore.

Iccotak

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I get it you don’t like the overland zones. “Too easy.” And casual players don’t like dungeons, trials, or arenas. So... Should we make easy solo versions of vet trials, dungeons, and arenas?

There is easy mode versions of trials. Its called normal, doesnt have mechanics and can be tanked by a 19k health sorc.

By you. And a few others. But most players cannot solo a normal dungeon. And it sounds a bit arrogant to suggest otherwise.

There may be a vocal minority on the Forums that want this, but that works out as a very very very small proportion of players.

Whether different servers, instances or sliders, as has already been pointed out, this will all take developer resources - and for what? To keep a few people ‘happy’.

(But then the complaints would be about dead areas or demanding increased loot for doing ‘harder’ stuff or something else...)

Overland is what it is.

But my suggestion upthread for proper individual instances of quest end bosses of varying difficulty is a workable to that ‘issue’, imho 😀

Indeed. I don't do normal dungeons in GROUPS, because I don't find 20-30 team wipes any fun at all, nor do I enjoy running blindly into every map because someone who's already done it can't be arsed to wait for the group to keep up with him. I mean, they made these gorgeous maps with incredible scenery... that we never get to see or explore because someone is already at the NEXT encounter.

Dungeon grouping is a problem in that VERY experienced players are being grouped with novices.
How can anyone properly learn dungeons if experts are wiping the floor before others have a chance to participate?

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I decided to do the event dailies on one alt per server in addition to my mains-- a different alt each day, so they all get a shot at earning the achievements.

I have not bothered to repurchase any active skills on my alts yet, just whatever racial passives they qualify for at their level, plus any crafting-related skills that they'd had before the reset.

Most of my alts don't even have decent gear, because some of them are still wearing whatever gear they'd acquired during the tutorial and the escape from Coldharbor, and since then they've leveled up from doing daily crafting writs such that their gear is 10 to 20 levels behind their current level.

Anywho, I ran into Ilessan Tower on my alt with nothing at all on my skill bar, no restore potions quickslotted, etc. And I got killed several times by the "trash" mobs in there, for obvious reasons, which reaffirms my belief that the primary reason why overland content seems so incredibly easy to most players is because of their slotted skills.

Getting killed repeatedly was actually kind of fun. As it is, I enjoy playing on my low-DPS mains and having the fights take a bit longer, but they never get killed except by powerful bosses. Getting killed by trash mobs made the simple event quest a lot more challenging.

So people shouldn’t even bother to play the game the way it was designed to be played if they want to get any sense of challenge from the main story, or just questing?

I think your example just demonstrated that people could find a Veteran Overland Instance enjoyable.

CP5 wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

The point being that, if you find certain content too easy, the problem isn't that the content should be more difficult, it's that YOU should move to the more difficult content. If you don't have the skills or the gear for that... that's what having easy content to gain the skill points, as well as the levels, is FOR.

That mentality, that by having gotten better at playing the game and knowing how to play, I should just leave overland forever, forgoing all the story content, because I had the gall to learn, is kind of insulting. I do all the trials, the dungeons, and while we get them at a decent pace the majority of the game is overland and it has a story to tell. I want to experience that story, but the illusion fails instantly when the big bad dares to stand in the same room as me without plot armor to save them. The only major quest chain I've done since summerset was elsweyr because at least the dragons were an actual threat, but without a meaningful amount of resistance from an enemy worth fighting, every quest turns into a fetch quest with overly dramatic npcs crying about me needing to save the world. It makes saving the world turn into a chore.

THIS.
I don’t get this push that story and questing should ONLY be for new players and that if you want any sense of immersion from risk and danger - from the Main Antagonist at least- that you should purposefully play worse.

I think ZOS should consider the following;
1. quite a few people on the forums report not bothering with the story because they’re all designed only for new players and the lack of challenge or varied mechanics takes away any tension the story might have had. Overall no engaging gameplay so people are buying them less.

2. New players quit because the Overland is too easy and don’t give the other activities a chance. There’s no challenge to rise to.

Try telling those players “Oh well just play the game worse and purposely nerf yourself, that’ll make it challenging..”

Dungeons (and activities like them) are the only place with actual progression.
The game has encouraged staying in safe zone bubbles and inadvertently discouraged people from their best designed content.
——————————————————
Edited for Spelling

sentientomega

I have no problem with solutions that don't involve making things arbitrarily harder for everyone. Are we all here to have positive fun or not?

Let each enjoy the game in the best ways that they can, without imposing on any one set of players. You should get the challenge you desire, and we should get the breeze we desire.

SilverBride

How many threads on this same subject do we need?

There was already a very similar thread by the OP. This is just the same old arguement again and not beneficial to anyone.

WiseSky

SilverBride wrote: »

How many threads on this same subject do we need?

There was already a very similar thread by the OP. This is just the same old arguement again and not beneficial to anyone.

Op is really passionate about this topic for sure.

I would just like to see a discussion focusing on solutions players can make right now, instead of the just pointing at the design of the game and how some people dislike it.

Iccotak

WiseSky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

How many threads on this same subject do we need?

There was already a very similar thread by the OP. This is just the same old arguement again and not beneficial to anyone.

Op is really passionate about this topic for sure.

I would just like to see a discussion focusing on solutions players can make right now, instead of the just pointing at the design of the game and how some people dislike it.

Well that’s kind of what people in the thread have been doing. (As well as other threads in the past) But then the discussion always gets pointed to
- “Why should we even bother”
and
- “It’s not actually a problem.”

At which point not only do people offer solutions but they also have to argue the justifications for it.

Also the only “actionable player solution“ has been self-nerfs which actually haven’t solved anything, no matter how many times people say it, because it does not solve the issue of the Lack of Engaging Combat.

As to the question on how many threads we need on the subject.... well until the problem is solved.
We could move on from the subject of ‘if the developer should do it’ - if we saw efforts from the developers to work on it.

At one point I did make a thread it started from the assumption of moving on from “if“ to “How” but then the thread circled right back around to people arguing justifications for & against changes.

No matter what you do “if and how“ are going to be hand-in-hand in a topic like this. That is just how the conversation has flowed time and time again, you can’t control it.

WiseSky

Iccotak wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

How many threads on this same subject do we need?

There was already a very similar thread by the OP. This is just the same old arguement again and not beneficial to anyone.

Op is really passionate about this topic for sure.

I would just like to see a discussion focusing on solutions players can make right now, instead of the just pointing at the design of the game and how some people dislike it.

Well that’s kind of what people in the thread have been doing. (As well as other threads in the past) But then the discussion always gets pointed to
- “Why should we even bother”
and
- “It’s not actually a problem.”

At which point not only do people offer solutions but they also have to argue the justifications for it.

Also the only “actionable player solution“ has been self-nerfs which actually haven’t solved anything, no matter how many times people say it, because it does not solve the issue of the Lack of Engaging Combat.

As to the question on how many threads we need on the subject.... well until the problem is solved.
We could move on from the subject of ‘if the developer should do it’ - if we saw efforts from the developers to work on it.

At one point I did make a thread it started from the assumption of moving on from “if“ to “How” but then the thread circled right back around to people arguing justifications for & against changes.

No matter what you do “if and how“ are going to be hand-in-hand in a topic like this. That is just how the conversation has flowed time and time again, you can’t control it.

Ok so let’s try to solve for engaging combat.

What makes it engaging, btw I just asked my SO if combat is engaging she said yes.

She is a total new player for MMO and every monster we encounter, her eyes light up and she starts yelling let’s get this “baddie”.

She only does light attack and uses mushrooms to heal and run away if anything bad happens.

She literally ran away from 2 mud crabs and said they where vicious and too much too much to handle on her own.

So the solution is we somehow have to cute be as my gf.

Kiralyn2000

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

I wish the solo PVE in ESO was at a minimum similar in challenge to the combat in Skyrim on Adept difficulty. Adept in Skyrim was not overly hard but also not so mind numbingly simplistic that a trained monkey hitting the same keys over and over could succeed.

Hmm, wouldn't know. I've never turned up the difficulty on a Bethesda game (MW/OB/SK/FO3/FO4). I find 'normal' to be just fine. /shrug

Thechuckage

A large part of the problem stems from taking away the starter zones. The ones every other game has, where the mobs gently slap you around and the game shows and reinforces the basics of gameplay.

Instead, the entire overland has been turned into a starter zone. There is literally no need for the player to improve. The game reinforces light attacks and maybe using a skill will get you thru everything. None of this is the players fault, as the game is telling you everything you are doing is right.

Until the player moves into their first dungeon and they finally see a little pushback. Player won't know they are being a potato until they receive the feedback.

martinhpb16_ESO

Alurria wrote: »

The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.

And how long do players stay "new"?

By your definition every overland zone is forever only for new players?

Overland is absolutely tedious for anyone with a modicum of skill.

MMOs should be about progression as well.

I remember when this game started you could actually have an adventure in overland and delves, now its just vanilla meh.

Iccotak

Thechuckage wrote: »

A large part of the problem stems from taking away the starter zones. The ones every other game has, where the mobs gently slap you around and the game shows and reinforces the basics of gameplay.

Instead, the entire overland has been turned into a starter zone. There is literally no need for the player to improve. The game reinforces light attacks and maybe using a skill will get you thru everything. None of this is the players fault, as the game is telling you everything you are doing is right.

Until the player moves into their first dungeon and they finally see a little pushback. Player won't know they are being a potato until they receive the feedback.

Yeah, we have to ask “do we really want all zones to be as easy as a bleakrock?”

I get that people do not want Old Craglorn, but there has to be a better compromise...

Because the way it’s currently set up just isn’t engaging for the majority of the experience.
And again not all of us are saying we want everything to be as hard as an endgame dungeon or trial - we just want to be able to enjoy our solo questing and story experiences.

Iccotak

WiseSky wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

How many threads on this same subject do we need?

There was already a very similar thread by the OP. This is just the same old arguement again and not beneficial to anyone.

Op is really passionate about this topic for sure.

I would just like to see a discussion focusing on solutions players can make right now, instead of the just pointing at the design of the game and how some people dislike it.

Well that’s kind of what people in the thread have been doing. (As well as other threads in the past) But then the discussion always gets pointed to
- “Why should we even bother”
and
- “It’s not actually a problem.”

At which point not only do people offer solutions but they also have to argue the justifications for it.

Also the only “actionable player solution“ has been self-nerfs which actually haven’t solved anything, no matter how many times people say it, because it does not solve the issue of the Lack of Engaging Combat.

As to the question on how many threads we need on the subject.... well until the problem is solved.
We could move on from the subject of ‘if the developer should do it’ - if we saw efforts from the developers to work on it.

At one point I did make a thread it started from the assumption of moving on from “if“ to “How” but then the thread circled right back around to people arguing justifications for & against changes.

No matter what you do “if and how“ are going to be hand-in-hand in a topic like this. That is just how the conversation has flowed time and time again, you can’t control it.

Ok so let’s try to solve for engaging combat.

What makes it engaging, btw I just asked my SO if combat is engaging she said yes.

She is a total new player for MMO and every monster we encounter, her eyes light up and she starts yelling let’s get this “baddie”.

She only does light attack and uses mushrooms to heal and run away if anything bad happens.

She literally ran away from 2 mud crabs and said they where vicious and too much too much to handle on her own.

So the solution is we somehow have to cute be as my gf.

So it’s great for some new players just getting into the game...we’ve said this. The problem is that it’s the majority of the content and it’s appeal is mostly to new people.

This is why people have proposed a separate instance with higher difficulty and some adjustments to mechanics.

Arwende

Just because some people find the combat engaging doesn't mean the rest of the community does.
The solution is to give players more challenging options. Would be nice for the enemies to be a little more threatening than the wet noodles they are. My bf and I come back to this game on and off and we're always reluctant due to how stupid easy the overworld is. It gets really frustrating when we want to have a good time going through the different zones and adventuring, but when the adventure involves deleting majority of enemies in 2 hits or killing the sUpEr BaD bOSs before they can even finish their dialogue, can't say it's very appealing. When the majority of your content is so easy even new players complain about how easy it is, it's a problem.

ZOS_ConnorG

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Iccotak

Arwende wrote: »

Just because some people find the combat engaging doesn't mean the rest of the community does.

The solution is to give players more challenging options. Would be nice for the enemies to be a little more threatening than the wet noodles they are.

My bf and I come back to this game on and off and we're always reluctant due to how stupid easy the overworld is.

It gets really frustrating when we want to have a good time going through the different zones and adventuring, but when the adventure involves deleting majority of enemies in 2 hits or killing the sUpEr BaD bOSs before they can even finish their dialogue, can't say it's very appealing.

When the majority of your content is so easy even new players complain about how easy it is, it's a problem.

Very well put
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EDIT
https://steamcommunity.com/app/306130/discussions/0/1326718197228678206/

This other discussion made it clear as to why others don’t like the current set up.
There’s no sense of progression or engagement in Overland content.

Once you’re about level 10 all fights feel the same.

If you want a sense of challenge then go play the other content or gimp yourself.

Meaning that engaging stories and engaging gameplay have been made mutually exclusive.

Morgha_Kul

The real problem isn't actually the mobs, it's the degree of power WE are allowed to get to. For my part, I play my character with moderately good gear, but I can't achieve anything like the DPS that many players get to. I see them going around in public dungeons, gathering up all the enemies in sight then instantly oneshotting the whole lot of them. These are people who kill world bosses in less than 5 seconds. Of COURSE the overland content is going to be too easy for them.

If they make any content in the game hard enough to challenge THOSE players, they will be putting it FAR out of reach of the average player. I mean, I just did one of those Harrowstorm things (thinking it would be something like a dolmen), and it was routinely oneshotting me over and over and over, with enemies so strong I could have stood there hacking at them for hours and never kill them.

The problem is that people are able to get so powerful that foes like that are needed. If they were to scale back the level of power we can achieve, so there's a J-curve of diminishing returns, then revamping overland might not be as necessary.

Iccotak

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The real problem isn't actually the mobs, it's the degree of power WE are allowed to get to. For my part, I play my character with moderately good gear, but I can't achieve anything like the DPS that many players get to. I see them going around in public dungeons, gathering up all the enemies in sight then instantly oneshotting the whole lot of them. These are people who kill world bosses in less than 5 seconds. Of COURSE the overland content is going to be too easy for them.

If they make any content in the game hard enough to challenge THOSE players, they will be putting it FAR out of reach of the average player. I mean, I just did one of those Harrowstorm things (thinking it would be something like a dolmen), and it was routinely oneshotting me over and over and over, with enemies so strong I could have stood there hacking at them for hours and never kill them.

The problem is that people are able to get so powerful that foes like that are needed. If they were to scale back the level of power we can achieve, so there's a J-curve of diminishing returns, then revamping overland might not be as necessary.

Power is one thing, Skill is another.

If all it came down to was the player power then gimping yourself would be an effective solution - but it’s not.

It doesn’t matter if the players power is scaled back - because even as low level character, with low power & no CP, the fights are not engaging.
The enemies rarely ever do anything that puts you in a position to use different abilities, dodge, block, etc. and are also very slow.
They even take way too long hinting at their next move.

They do not require more than the bare minimum skill to beat.

Like I said previously about Overland.

Once you’re about level 10 all fights feel the same.

Sevn

I'll try again to highlight a huge barrier that just wooshes over this group, correct me if I'm wrong TC, but TC is asking for new skills/abilities/mechanics from overland enemies, while others are cool with just a buff to overland.

Please engage and explain to other players who are advocating for this as well that don't seem to get you still wouldn't be satisfied with such a change, because that's not the level of difficulty you are seeking and would still be seeking something more.

How about explaining to the guy that claims that 75% of players still left unsatisfied wouldn't necessarily translate to being unhappiness? Or am I wrong? In which case why are you unhappy now if you are unfulfilled by the current level of content?

A universal consensus on even what this "challenging" content would play like is required first and foremost. Pissing in the wind otherwise.

Agenericname

Sevn wrote: »

I'll try again to highlight a huge barrier that just wooshes over this group, correct me if I'm wrong TC, but TC is asking for new skills/abilities/mechanics from overland enemies, while others are cool with just a buff to overland.

Please engage and explain to other players who are advocating for this as well that don't seem to get you still wouldn't be satisfied with such a change, because that's not the level of difficulty you are seeking and would still be seeking something more.

How about explaining to the guy that claims that 75% of players still left unsatisfied wouldn't necessarily translate to being unhappiness? Or am I wrong? In which case why are you unhappy now if you are unfulfilled by the current level of content?

A universal consensus on even what this "challenging" content would play like is required first and foremost. Pissing in the wind otherwise.

Theres a difference between satisfaction and happiness. What youre saying is 100% should remain unhappy, or unsatifised, because only 25% would be truly happy while the remaining 75% may only be satisifed. So because we cant make everyone who holds this opinion we shouldnt satisfy any.

It was your analogy, not mine. I dont think the numbers are nearly that clean and compartmentalized.

You're using difficulty and engagung synonymously. Theyre not always the same. I dont think that theyre asking for every spider in Tamriel to suddenly be challenge. The boss of the stories on the otherhand are so underpowered and lackluster that they leave most of the story, the bigger part of any TES game, bland for large portion of the players.

Sevn

Agenericname wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I'll try again to highlight a huge barrier that just wooshes over this group, correct me if I'm wrong TC, but TC is asking for new skills/abilities/mechanics from overland enemies, while others are cool with just a buff to overland.

Please engage and explain to other players who are advocating for this as well that don't seem to get you still wouldn't be satisfied with such a change, because that's not the level of difficulty you are seeking and would still be seeking something more.

How about explaining to the guy that claims that 75% of players still left unsatisfied wouldn't necessarily translate to being unhappiness? Or am I wrong? In which case why are you unhappy now if you are unfulfilled by the current level of content?

A universal consensus on even what this "challenging" content would play like is required first and foremost. Pissing in the wind otherwise.

Theres a difference between satisfaction and happiness. What youre saying is 100% should remain unhappy, or unsatifised, because only 25% would be truly happy while the remaining 75% may only be satisifed. So because we cant make everyone who holds this opinion we shouldnt satisfy any.

It was your analogy, not mine. I dont think the numbers are nearly that clean and compartmentalized.

You're using difficulty and engagung synonymously. Theyre not always the same. I dont think that theyre asking for every spider in Tamriel to suddenly be challenge. The boss of the stories on the otherhand are so underpowered and lackluster that they leave most of the story, the bigger part of any TES game, bland for large portion of the players.

That's just it, TC mentioned bosses and story related content, others want the entire overland difficulty to increase. How are you coming to the conclusion that the players who are BOTH unhappy and unsatisfied now and don't get what they are asking for are going to suddenly become content?

Of the course the numbers aren't that clean, the point is a vast majority of the players will remain unfulfilled and how does that justify making this change?

Help me understand why players who still won't have the challenging content they seek are suddenly going to not continue repeatedly asking for what they want? Especially after they see that others got exactly what they wanted?

If players are unhappy enough now to continue asking for what they want, why is that going to change and how do you justify this additional cost to develop and maintain this content if that's the case?

We're already talking about a small portion of the population in the first place, now only a small number of that group will be pleased and that's your justification for this? So if whatever changes they make don't satisfy you it's no big deal? You won't mention the difficulty in the future? Serious question btw, no trolling or baiting.

Agenericname

Sevn wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

I'll try again to highlight a huge barrier that just wooshes over this group, correct me if I'm wrong TC, but TC is asking for new skills/abilities/mechanics from overland enemies, while others are cool with just a buff to overland.

Please engage and explain to other players who are advocating for this as well that don't seem to get you still wouldn't be satisfied with such a change, because that's not the level of difficulty you are seeking and would still be seeking something more.

How about explaining to the guy that claims that 75% of players still left unsatisfied wouldn't necessarily translate to being unhappiness? Or am I wrong? In which case why are you unhappy now if you are unfulfilled by the current level of content?

A universal consensus on even what this "challenging" content would play like is required first and foremost. Pissing in the wind otherwise.

Theres a difference between satisfaction and happiness. What youre saying is 100% should remain unhappy, or unsatifised, because only 25% would be truly happy while the remaining 75% may only be satisifed. So because we cant make everyone who holds this opinion we shouldnt satisfy any.

It was your analogy, not mine. I dont think the numbers are nearly that clean and compartmentalized.

You're using difficulty and engagung synonymously. Theyre not always the same. I dont think that theyre asking for every spider in Tamriel to suddenly be challenge. The boss of the stories on the otherhand are so underpowered and lackluster that they leave most of the story, the bigger part of any TES game, bland for large portion of the players.

That's just it, TC mentioned bosses and story related content, others want the entire overland difficulty to increase. How are you coming to the conclusion that the players who are BOTH unhappy and unsatisfied now and don't get what they are asking for are going to suddenly become content?

Of the course the numbers aren't that clean, the point is a vast majority of the players will remain unfulfilled and how does that justify making this change?

Help me understand why players who still won't have the challenging content they seek are suddenly going to not continue repeatedly asking for what they want? Especially after they see that others got exactly what they wanted?

If players are unhappy enough now to continue asking for what they want, why is that going to change and how do you justify this additional cost to develop and maintain this content if that's the case?

We're already talking about a small portion of the population in the first place, now only a small number of that group will be pleased and that's your justification for this? So if whatever changes they make don't satisfy you it's no big deal? You won't mention the difficulty in the future? Serious question btw, no trolling or baiting.

Of course they will continue to ask. This is no different from what happens now, and it'll continue to happen, in nearly every aspect of the game. Most of it is noise. Not many ideas stand on their own merit. I'm quite sure it's read, but that's probably where the interaction ends as well.

One Tamriel solved a problem, but it also created another. It's not absurd to recognize that the system had a shortfall and ask for something to correct it. It solved the "I can't play with my friends" issue and left a "this is all the same difficulty now" issue. Effectively removing the choice anyone had to play in story content that was more engaging. So the question should be, and has already been asked at the Dev level I'm sure, is this something that needs to be addressed.

I do not justify ZOS's cost. Not many posting here do. Nor can we speak for it. We are customers and provide feedback when we are happy or unhappy, mostly unhappy. It's up to them to run their business. I'm sure I'd get the same response as they would if they walked into my business and tried to micromanage it for me.

As to the numbers, yes, a small number. That only takes into account the people who play now. While anecdotal, I have a number of friends who have stopped playing because overland is so lackluster. There's plenty of challenging content, but it isn't the story, and some people want nothing to do a challenge at all. The business model is designed to appeal to a wide variety of customers though and it isn't a democracy. If they only catered to 51% they would soon start losing money. That's why we have vet trials, dlcs, arenas, and PvP. We're all part of a larger whole. I'm sure that they have better data than any of us do, but they call us all customers.

As to whether or not I would ask for more change, I would give them feedback. If it's something that I don't enjoy, I simply avoid it and I don't see that changing in the near future.

Rescorla_ESO

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

I wish the solo PVE in ESO was at a minimum similar in challenge to the combat in Skyrim on Adept difficulty. Adept in Skyrim was not overly hard but also not so mind numbingly simplistic that a trained monkey hitting the same keys over and over could succeed.

Hmm, wouldn't know. I've never turned up the difficulty on a Bethesda game (MW/OB/SK/FO3/FO4). I find 'normal' to be just fine. /shrug

In those Bethesda games you listed you could die if you didn't play competently. In ESO you could be the worst gamer in history and it would be almost impossible for you to die in solo PVE content.

Morgha_Kul

Yeah, tried a harrowstorm thing again tonight. Stood for almost 20 minutes battering one of those tentacle things, it healed faster than I could do damage, and then when the bosses arrived, they would routinely hit me for 30k-60k damage in single, unannounced area attacks (not that could move out of the way even if it DID warn me, because I was more or less permanently immobilized or snared...).

Essentially unplayable for me, and I expect for many players... and I'm a good enough player to do public dungeons on my own, and even solo many of the earlier group dungeons on normal (though I tend not to try those).

THIS is the problem the power creep has caused. This is overland content, and it's completely out of reach for me. I doubt very much I'm the only one that will be ignoring them. I don't think it's a good thing for the game that the content is growing SO difficult that it's going to disenfranchise a huge portion of the playerbase.

So yes, overland content in general is a bit too easy, but the upper limit has moved so high that there is now content that is unplayable.

(As an aside, I participated in one of the world bosses in Western Skyrim, that hunter camp one, and when it was done, got a grand total of 4gp as my reward. There was simply no way to compete with the other players, and no way for me to engage solo, as there were SO many enemies and SO strong, that there was no way for me to do anything. Yes, it's a world boss, but if I participate, I should be getting rewards for doing so.