Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Auto-Bind Items to prevent future price explosions and exploitations!
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phileunderx2✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is nothing wrong with flipping. Flippers buy my stuff so I can get it out of my inventory quickly. Thus I can sell more stuff. More gold for me.8 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »And if people buying items and re selling them for an profit then you sold to cheap.
This is not necessarily true nor is it what the OP is talking about.
They are talking about artificial scarcity brought about by cartel-like behavior designed to manipulate markets for certain goods. You can see this phenomenon quite clearly in real life right now in the GPU market, where organized groups of flippers are buying up (with bots) all card stocks and re-selling them for 2x-3x their MSRP. Since they've cleaned out the market, buyers have no choice but to bow to the extortion or forego a card.
In ESO, you can see this with raw materials. The cartels that traffic in a particular material will clean out all of the inventory as an enforcement mechanism to prop up their own artificially high price. Buyers are then forced to pay the price or farm it themselves but rest assured this is not the behavior of a well-functioning market.
In real life, resources and good are limited and/or take time to produce. There are no such limits and barriers in ESO and no item which you cannot obtain for yourself. It is a matter of convenience.2 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Araneae6537 wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price.
And not just me. All the guildies, that I talked to about it, have agreed and talked about similar experiences. One openly admitted he became filthy rich doing that.
Now, as many will probably agree on, that pushes prices by a LOT, like a LOT LOT.
Buying that one elusive motif page and reselling it for twice, thrice or even ten times the value is hurting the entire community by limiting use/consumption to a very small percentage of players.
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account.
That would solve a lot of the issues that reselling is causing.
How that would work for consumables or upgrade materials, I cannot fathom. I do not know how binding works technologically in ESO.
What does the community think?
Am I right?
Wrong?
Am I missing something?
Please comment and PLEASE be civil.
I am not sure, that it is the right time to do something like this (and that there will be such time at all). But that would be a huge benefit for any game that starts with auto-binding for all items, bought from player traders. Personally I would implement this without a doubt for any new game with trading system. After 7 year of working the other way? A bit too late.
Why would that be beneficial to do in any game??? In ESO, I have bought gear for others and several times I’ve bought something for one of my characters only to discover I made an error. Being able to resell the item enabled me to recoup some or even all the cost whereas if my only option had been to decon, it would have been a loss. Likewise with furnishings — I may buy something but it doesn’t work how I envisioned or I change my mind, then because both space and funds are limited, I can resell the item for someone else to use.
And what is wrong with flipping? The person posting for a low price got the quick sale they wanted and it won’t be posted above market rates most times or else that is a waste of money and a trading slot.
There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »And if people buying items and re selling them for an profit then you sold to cheap.
This is not necessarily true nor is it what the OP is talking about.
They are talking about artificial scarcity brought about by cartel-like behavior designed to manipulate markets for certain goods. You can see this phenomenon quite clearly in real life right now in the GPU market, where organized groups of flippers are buying up (with bots) all card stocks and re-selling them for 2x-3x their MSRP. Since they've cleaned out the market, buyers have no choice but to bow to the extortion or forego a card.
In ESO, you can see this with raw materials. The cartels that traffic in a particular material will clean out all of the inventory as an enforcement mechanism to prop up their own artificially high price. Buyers are then forced to pay the price or farm it themselves but rest assured this is not the behavior of a well-functioning market.
I personally bought every dawn-prism under 20k in Mournhold, Elden Root and like 10 other locations a day after the PVP event on XBox.
No cartel. Just me. I sat on them for a week before slowly re-releasing them back into the market as jewelry. I actually could straight out flood the market with jewelry tonight if I felt like it, but I don’t because I’m intentionally trying to keep the market at a level.
So yes, you’re right, but this behavior doesn’t need a cartel if you have enough gold and patience.3 -
Wildberryjack✭✭✭✭✭
✭No. This is a ridiculous idea quite frankly. You're just mad because someone bought something before you did and that is hardly grounds to change their entire system.The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. ~Pablo Picasso7 -
allhailskippy✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
There are ~200 traders spread out over all of Tamriel.
There is no way for a single, or even a small group of people to be at all of them all the time buying all items. Just doesn't happen.
I've only seen the occasional empty trader, and it's usually in a remote place with a guild who I've never seen with a trader before.Hireling Wanted! - An Elder Scrolls Tale https://hirelingwanted.com5 -
linuxlady✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price...
that pushes prices by a LOT...
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account...
Am I right?
Wrong?
You are wrong. There is nothing wrong with someone buying an item that has been underpriced then reselling it at market value.
The real solution is for you to research the market value of an item before you put it up for sale.
How does one research the market value? With MM ATT and TTC? Because i can tell you that historically i have sold items for prices based upon all three metrics but when i have sought to buy things based on all 3 metrics i could never find them for that price. Most of the time the prices i find for things are well and above what those three metrics are reporting as their value. There is in place a system to constantly drive prices up no matter what and its very obvious to anyone who buys stuff. Yes sometimes the prices crash. i can remember years ago selling atherial dust for 1.5 mil and today it's selling for a fraction of that or it was before the most recent update. Since this update iridium platings are 2-3 times what i used to be able to buy them at. Same goes for perfect roe - it's hardly worth the cost to buy it to complete a crafting writ as the 40 writ voucher doesnt compensate my cost. I hate what this update has done to my crafting writ expenses. CP system has been awful on the markets and the crafting. Maybe it will calm down eventually but i may just quit doing many crafting writs because the expense isn't worth it. This past week i got 968 or so writ vouchers from crafting writs but i could have bought 2 complete crafting sets for what i spent on mats and only got enough vouchers to buy 1 crafting set. Cost prohibitive!0 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Araneae6537 wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price.
And not just me. All the guildies, that I talked to about it, have agreed and talked about similar experiences. One openly admitted he became filthy rich doing that.
Now, as many will probably agree on, that pushes prices by a LOT, like a LOT LOT.
Buying that one elusive motif page and reselling it for twice, thrice or even ten times the value is hurting the entire community by limiting use/consumption to a very small percentage of players.
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account.
That would solve a lot of the issues that reselling is causing.
How that would work for consumables or upgrade materials, I cannot fathom. I do not know how binding works technologically in ESO.
What does the community think?
Am I right?
Wrong?
Am I missing something?
Please comment and PLEASE be civil.
I am not sure, that it is the right time to do something like this (and that there will be such time at all). But that would be a huge benefit for any game that starts with auto-binding for all items, bought from player traders. Personally I would implement this without a doubt for any new game with trading system. After 7 year of working the other way? A bit too late.
Why would that be beneficial to do in any game??? In ESO, I have bought gear for others and several times I’ve bought something for one of my characters only to discover I made an error. Being able to resell the item enabled me to recoup some or even all the cost whereas if my only option had been to decon, it would have been a loss. Likewise with furnishings — I may buy something but it doesn’t work how I envisioned or I change my mind, then because both space and funds are limited, I can resell the item for someone else to use.
And what is wrong with flipping? The person posting for a low price got the quick sale they wanted and it won’t be posted above market rates most times or else that is a waste of money and a trading slot.
There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
How is it sustainable? The more an item is bought up, the more people will go out to get it and post it for sale to make quick gold. With gear I check the average market price to determine whether it’s worth posting or decon. And if I do post it, a quick sale will reinforce that I should continue posting such items for at least that price, maybe even go out of my way to find more. When supply is not limited, I do not think any monopoly is self-sustainable, no. If I tried to by every Mother’s Sorrow Inferno staff and list it for a million gold, people would be farming, not only for their own staff, but for a quick sale to me or through zone chat advertising how it is less than guild traders (or maybe I watch like a hawk and buy there too). Ultimately, no one buys for my ridiculous price, lots of people are farming Mother’s Sorrow Inferno staves, and I lose lots of gold in my attempted monopoly.1 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭allhailskippy wrote: »There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
There are ~200 traders spread out over all of Tamriel.
There is no way for a single, or even a small group of people to be at all of them all the time buying all items. Just doesn't happen.
I've only seen the occasional empty trader, and it's usually in a remote place with a guild who I've never seen with a trader before.
Traders outside of main cities are essentially irrelevant to the overall economy.
Also, on console empty traders are quite common.
Lastly ... and I want to stress this ... the economies on console and PC are VASTLY different. Console is pure Wild West and a market can be almost completely controlled by price fixing in less than 5 locations.2 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price...
that pushes prices by a LOT...
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account...
Am I right?
Wrong?
You are wrong. There is nothing wrong with someone buying an item that has been underpriced then reselling it at market value.
The real solution is for you to research the market value of an item before you put it up for sale.
How does one research the market value? With MM ATT and TTC? Because i can tell you that historically i have sold items for prices based upon all three metrics but when i have sought to buy things based on all 3 metrics i could never find them for that price. Most of the time the prices i find for things are well and above what those three metrics are reporting as their value. There is in place a system to constantly drive prices up no matter what and its very obvious to anyone who buys stuff. Yes sometimes the prices crash. i can remember years ago selling atherial dust for 1.5 mil and today it's selling for a fraction of that or it was before the most recent update. Since this update iridium platings are 2-3 times what i used to be able to buy them at. Same goes for perfect roe - it's hardly worth the cost to buy it to complete a crafting writ as the 40 writ voucher doesnt compensate my cost. I hate what this update has done to my crafting writ expenses. CP system has been awful on the markets and the crafting. Maybe it will calm down eventually but i may just quit doing many crafting writs because the expense isn't worth it. This past week i got 968 or so writ vouchers from crafting writs but i could have bought 2 complete crafting sets for what i spent on mats and only got enough vouchers to buy 1 crafting set. Cost prohibitive!
Take your writ vouchers and buy Guilded Wax.
968/20= 48.4
48 Guilded Wax should pay you about 1.4 million gold.2 -
allhailskippy✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price...
that pushes prices by a LOT...
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account...
Am I right?
Wrong?
You are wrong. There is nothing wrong with someone buying an item that has been underpriced then reselling it at market value.
The real solution is for you to research the market value of an item before you put it up for sale.
How does one research the market value? With MM ATT and TTC? Because i can tell you that historically i have sold items for prices based upon all three metrics but when i have sought to buy things based on all 3 metrics i could never find them for that price. Most of the time the prices i find for things are well and above what those three metrics are reporting as their value. There is in place a system to constantly drive prices up no matter what and its very obvious to anyone who buys stuff. Yes sometimes the prices crash. i can remember years ago selling atherial dust for 1.5 mil and today it's selling for a fraction of that or it was before the most recent update. Since this update iridium platings are 2-3 times what i used to be able to buy them at. Same goes for perfect roe - it's hardly worth the cost to buy it to complete a crafting writ as the 40 writ voucher doesnt compensate my cost. I hate what this update has done to my crafting writ expenses. CP system has been awful on the markets and the crafting. Maybe it will calm down eventually but i may just quit doing many crafting writs because the expense isn't worth it. This past week i got 968 or so writ vouchers from crafting writs but i could have bought 2 complete crafting sets for what i spent on mats and only got enough vouchers to buy 1 crafting set. Cost prohibitive!
You go to traders and search for stuff. Check the 3 capital cities for a general idea, and then secondary cities to verify.
The market responds to user behaviour.
Giant cp update? Well now it's time to redo all gear = more demand for items and a price increase. Happens all the time.
Event item needs housing mats? Well let's watch them double or triple in price until the market finds its new zone.
What you are seeing is not caused by a small handful of people, what you are seeing is the response to changes in user behaviour across the server.
Time is also a factor. The longer items are out, the more chances people have to get them. Atherial Dust was valuable because the demand exceeded the supply. Daily rewards took a HUGE bite out of the need for xp pots. People hitting 810 also lowers the demand. But guess what. Now that everyone can use up to 3600cp, those items are going to go up again. It's just how the economy works.
If you read the patch notes from the PTS and you've been watching the markets, you can often get ahead of these changes, but if you don't, then you get to deal with the way things are.
Also, if you don't like the price of mats. Go farm them. You obviously do a LOT of daily writs, so go pull up some of the surveys you got to offset your material costs.
Don't like the cost of perfect roe? Go fishing.
Knowledge is power in this economy, and those that acquire it do well on traders. Those that don't..well I'm sure the sellers appreciate your gold.Hireling Wanted! - An Elder Scrolls Tale https://hirelingwanted.com5 -
allhailskippy✭✭✭✭✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »allhailskippy wrote: »There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
There are ~200 traders spread out over all of Tamriel.
There is no way for a single, or even a small group of people to be at all of them all the time buying all items. Just doesn't happen.
I've only seen the occasional empty trader, and it's usually in a remote place with a guild who I've never seen with a trader before.
Traders outside of main cities are essentially irrelevant to the overall economy.
Also, on console empty traders are quite common.
Lastly ... and I want to stress this ... the economies on console and PC are VASTLY different. Console is pure Wild West and a market can be almost completely controlled by price fixing in less than 5 locations.
I am on console (PS4NA). Empty traders are very uncommon in my experience. Even in the boonies.
As for fixing prices in 5 locations.. well there are a LOT of other locations. Don't like the prices in the hubs. Go hunting in the smaller zones for a better price.
You can't complain that prices suck when you only shop in a limited number of places. They're expensive at those places because the cheap stuff gets bought quickly by the fact there is lots and lots of traffic to them.Hireling Wanted! - An Elder Scrolls Tale https://hirelingwanted.com2 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work. Besides, I don't think I've ever found something I absolute need that I can't find through other effort or can simply play and enjoy the game without it.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How about instead of binding there is a cool down on flipping items. Once an item is bought from a guild trader it can’t be resold for two weeks?
You want a 336-hour cooldown attached to every item that's sold on ESO? After all, it's not like the game knows if I bought those potions to resell or to use...
I'm against this for several reasons:
1. It'd be annoying. I repeat myself: a 336-hour timer on every item sold.
2. I can't see it being good for the servers. Again, we're talking about a 336-hour timer on every item sold.
3. Assuming the timer doesn't annoy the flippers out of the game with micromanagement, it doesn't actually stop flipping. It just delays it.
"You can sell this item in 12 days, 22hrs, 10 min, 45 seconds." It looks pretty ludicrous like that.Edited by VaranisArano on March 23, 2021 6:06PM6 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »There is nothing wrong with someone buying an item that has been underpriced then reselling it at market value.
The real solution is for you to research the market value of an item before you put it up for sale.
How does one research the market value? With MM ATT and TTC? Because i can tell you that historically i have sold items for prices based upon all three metrics but when i have sought to buy things based on all 3 metrics i could never find them for that price. Most of the time the prices i find for things are well and above what those three metrics are reporting as their value.
You could use those addons, or you could research yourself.
What I do is look on TTC's website, look at the lowest price for the item, then the highest, then last listed. The lowest is most likely way under market, and the highest overpriced. The last listed price is often close to market value for some unknown reason, so I look at it and see how it compares to the other prices. If it's somewhere in the mid range of listed prices, that is what I list for.
If I find an item sells almost immediately I realize I probably underpriced it. If it sits for a week without selling I figure I overpriced.
It's a lot of trial and error. That is what research is.PCNA4 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Araneae6537 wrote: »Araneae6537 wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price.
And not just me. All the guildies, that I talked to about it, have agreed and talked about similar experiences. One openly admitted he became filthy rich doing that.
Now, as many will probably agree on, that pushes prices by a LOT, like a LOT LOT.
Buying that one elusive motif page and reselling it for twice, thrice or even ten times the value is hurting the entire community by limiting use/consumption to a very small percentage of players.
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account.
That would solve a lot of the issues that reselling is causing.
How that would work for consumables or upgrade materials, I cannot fathom. I do not know how binding works technologically in ESO.
What does the community think?
Am I right?
Wrong?
Am I missing something?
Please comment and PLEASE be civil.
I am not sure, that it is the right time to do something like this (and that there will be such time at all). But that would be a huge benefit for any game that starts with auto-binding for all items, bought from player traders. Personally I would implement this without a doubt for any new game with trading system. After 7 year of working the other way? A bit too late.
Why would that be beneficial to do in any game??? In ESO, I have bought gear for others and several times I’ve bought something for one of my characters only to discover I made an error. Being able to resell the item enabled me to recoup some or even all the cost whereas if my only option had been to decon, it would have been a loss. Likewise with furnishings — I may buy something but it doesn’t work how I envisioned or I change my mind, then because both space and funds are limited, I can resell the item for someone else to use.
And what is wrong with flipping? The person posting for a low price got the quick sale they wanted and it won’t be posted above market rates most times or else that is a waste of money and a trading slot.
There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
How is it sustainable? The more an item is bought up, the more people will go out to get it and post it for sale to make quick gold. With gear I check the average market price to determine whether it’s worth posting or decon. And if I do post it, a quick sale will reinforce that I should continue posting such items for at least that price, maybe even go out of my way to find more. When supply is not limited, I do not think any monopoly is self-sustainable, no. If I tried to by every Mother’s Sorrow Inferno staff and list it for a million gold, people would be farming, not only for their own staff, but for a quick sale to me or through zone chat advertising how it is less than guild traders (or maybe I watch like a hawk and buy there too). Ultimately, no one buys for my ridiculous price, lots of people are farming Mother’s Sorrow Inferno staves, and I lose lots of gold in my attempted monopoly.
I think people just have a really big misunderstanding of what most flipping entails. They think it is bumping up prices of items but really it is just reselling items at their average value.
For example, a few years ago Necropotence was selling really well and the staves were in demand. The Transmutation system was introduced and suddenly off trait items were a bit more valuable. Necro Flame and Lightning staves were selling around 40K average per staff in off-traits. So I decided to journey around all of the traders and buy every single Necro stave I could find priced under 20K.
I spent around 4 hours doing this over the course of a night. Only hitting each trader once. Spent around 2M gold and filled my trader slots with Necro staves at 40K. Happened to find a few meta traited staves for like 10-20K as well. When it was all said and done, I think I made like 3 or 4 million gold profit.
But, it took months to sell all of those staves. Why? Because I wasn't bumping the price up past the average price of the item. So I had around 150 staves that were listed at normal sale prices. They sold, but they sold slowly. And the market wasn't impacted by that at all either. Why? Because I wasn't raising the average price of the items. What I was doing was buying items that were horribly mispriced and selling them at their normal prices.
That is what flipping is for the most part. Buying items that are horribly mispriced and reselling them at their correct prices. If you are going around buying items that are at the average price, with the intent to raise that price even more, it just isn't going to sell. People have an understanding, through experience, how much items should be in price. It's why you see motifs start out in the 75-100K range on release and fall below 40K after a few patches. If someone is posting a motif that has fallen for 60K, it probably is never going to sell. But if someone is posting it for 5K, why shouldn't a more informed player buy it and resell it at a proper price?
6 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭allhailskippy wrote: »There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
There are ~200 traders spread out over all of Tamriel.
There is no way for a single, or even a small group of people to be at all of them all the time buying all items. Just doesn't happen.
I've only seen the occasional empty trader, and it's usually in a remote place with a guild who I've never seen with a trader before.
It is possible to buy all items from all stores. It doesn't mean that somebody is actually buying all. I am not talking about problem of empty traders. I am talking about problem of buying (something or everything, but in reality likely something) from all stores to sell it from the same stores for 10-time price or whatever else.
It is sustainable, because in broken "economy" there are not only those, who can buy everything, but also those, who can buy something. The border between buying and not buying for everyone is different. Clearly, it is more sustainable for rare items. You can try to go and farm paintings, ayleid furnishings, one-per-day event pages, or even something like luxury furnishings.Araneae6537 wrote: »Araneae6537 wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price.
And not just me. All the guildies, that I talked to about it, have agreed and talked about similar experiences. One openly admitted he became filthy rich doing that.
Now, as many will probably agree on, that pushes prices by a LOT, like a LOT LOT.
Buying that one elusive motif page and reselling it for twice, thrice or even ten times the value is hurting the entire community by limiting use/consumption to a very small percentage of players.
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account.
That would solve a lot of the issues that reselling is causing.
How that would work for consumables or upgrade materials, I cannot fathom. I do not know how binding works technologically in ESO.
What does the community think?
Am I right?
Wrong?
Am I missing something?
Please comment and PLEASE be civil.
I am not sure, that it is the right time to do something like this (and that there will be such time at all). But that would be a huge benefit for any game that starts with auto-binding for all items, bought from player traders. Personally I would implement this without a doubt for any new game with trading system. After 7 year of working the other way? A bit too late.
Why would that be beneficial to do in any game??? In ESO, I have bought gear for others and several times I’ve bought something for one of my characters only to discover I made an error. Being able to resell the item enabled me to recoup some or even all the cost whereas if my only option had been to decon, it would have been a loss. Likewise with furnishings — I may buy something but it doesn’t work how I envisioned or I change my mind, then because both space and funds are limited, I can resell the item for someone else to use.
And what is wrong with flipping? The person posting for a low price got the quick sale they wanted and it won’t be posted above market rates most times or else that is a waste of money and a trading slot.
There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
How is it sustainable? The more an item is bought up, the more people will go out to get it and post it for sale to make quick gold. With gear I check the average market price to determine whether it’s worth posting or decon. And if I do post it, a quick sale will reinforce that I should continue posting such items for at least that price, maybe even go out of my way to find more. When supply is not limited, I do not think any monopoly is self-sustainable, no. If I tried to by every Mother’s Sorrow Inferno staff and list it for a million gold, people would be farming, not only for their own staff, but for a quick sale to me or through zone chat advertising how it is less than guild traders (or maybe I watch like a hawk and buy there too). Ultimately, no one buys for my ridiculous price, lots of people are farming Mother’s Sorrow Inferno staves, and I lose lots of gold in my attempted monopoly.
Anyway, there are anti-monopoly laws in real world. In a game nobody will bother with laws in such a way that "you technically can do this, but will be punished if found guilty", so the options are either to allow monopoly or to prevent it on technical level. Auto-binding is preventing on technical level.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Chips_Ahoy✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Am I right?
Wrong?
Am I missing something?
Please comment and PLEASE be civil.
No
Yes
Yes2 -
allhailskippy✭✭✭✭✭It is possible to buy all items from all stores. It doesn't mean that somebody is actually buying all. I am not talking about problem of empty traders. I am talking about problem of buying (something or everything, but in reality likely something) from all stores to sell it from the same stores for 10-time price or whatever else.
And if it sells for 10x the price, then that's its value, and the people selling it for 1/10th the price should be charging more.Hireling Wanted! - An Elder Scrolls Tale https://hirelingwanted.com4 -
allhailskippy✭✭✭✭✭Anyway, there are anti-monopoly laws in real world. In a game nobody will bother with laws in such a way that "you technically can do this, but will be punished if found guilty", so the options are either to allow monopoly or to prevent it on technical level. Auto-binding is preventing on technical level.
Can't murder people in real life either. Doesn't mean we should delete the dark brotherhood guild.Hireling Wanted! - An Elder Scrolls Tale https://hirelingwanted.com4 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Absolutely NOT. What if I want to buy something for a guildie or if i have something I bought (to resell OR to keep) and I want to give it away to someone? Besides buying and reselling is fun in some ways. Those that are making millions are most often supporting their guild with those profits myself included.4 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭allhailskippy wrote: »Anyway, there are anti-monopoly laws in real world. In a game nobody will bother with laws in such a way that "you technically can do this, but will be punished if found guilty", so the options are either to allow monopoly or to prevent it on technical level. Auto-binding is preventing on technical level.
Can't murder people in real life either. Doesn't mean we should delete the dark brotherhood guild.
Dark Brrotherhood is interacting with NPCs. Trading is interacting with players. Managing possible interactions between players is a sign of game with healthy community.
You may increase the price of any product (computer, phone, food) right now 100 times and still sell such an amount, that you get at least the same overall income (if it is possible to build monopoly). That doesn't mean that the value of any such product is 100 times more. That simply means that you are selling it to 100 times less customers.allhailskippy wrote: »It is possible to buy all items from all stores. It doesn't mean that somebody is actually buying all. I am not talking about problem of empty traders. I am talking about problem of buying (something or everything, but in reality likely something) from all stores to sell it from the same stores for 10-time price or whatever else.
And if it sells for 10x the price, then that's its value, and the people selling it for 1/10th the price should be charging more.Edited by Olauron on March 23, 2021 6:22PMThe Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭allhailskippy wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »allhailskippy wrote: »There is nothing wrong with flipping in a game with working "economy". There is everything wrong with flipping in a game, where a single person (or a very small group) can buy everything from all stores and continue doing this for indefinite time, just because this person (or a group) has billions. Once started, this monopoly is self-sustainable, especially for items that are not easily farmed.
There are ~200 traders spread out over all of Tamriel.
There is no way for a single, or even a small group of people to be at all of them all the time buying all items. Just doesn't happen.
I've only seen the occasional empty trader, and it's usually in a remote place with a guild who I've never seen with a trader before.
Traders outside of main cities are essentially irrelevant to the overall economy.
Also, on console empty traders are quite common.
Lastly ... and I want to stress this ... the economies on console and PC are VASTLY different. Console is pure Wild West and a market can be almost completely controlled by price fixing in less than 5 locations.
I am on console (PS4NA). Empty traders are very uncommon in my experience. Even in the boonies.
As for fixing prices in 5 locations.. well there are a LOT of other locations. Don't like the prices in the hubs. Go hunting in the smaller zones for a better price.
You can't complain that prices suck when you only shop in a limited number of places. They're expensive at those places because the cheap stuff gets bought quickly by the fact there is lots and lots of traffic to them.
I’m not complaining. I’m thrilled that people don’t spend all day shopping and just go to a few locations.0 -
allhailskippy✭✭✭✭✭Dark Brrotherhood is interacting with NPCs. Trading is interacting with players. Managing possible interactions between players is a sign of game with healthy community.
This was said because you were implying that real world rules apply in a video game. They do not.allhailskippy wrote: »You may increase the price of any product (computer, phone, food) right now 100 times and still sell such an amount, that you get at least the same overall income (if it is possible to build monopoly). That doesn't mean that the value of any such product is 100 more. That simply means that you are selling it to 100 less customers.
If I list an item for 100g and it sells for 100g. Then that's its value.
You are again, arguing reality vs video games. They do not operate the same, and they should not operate the same.Hireling Wanted! - An Elder Scrolls Tale https://hirelingwanted.com1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work.
It's also why basically no nation on earth actually has completely unregulated markets - it's a recipe for disaster.
If it feels unethical it's because it is unethical - more folks should listen to their conscience.3 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »I have noticed very often, that a lot of the items I wish to buy, have been bought right under my nose, only to reappear on a different guild trader for a much higher price.
And not just me. All the guildies, that I talked to about it, have agreed and talked about similar experiences. One openly admitted he became filthy rich doing that.
Now, as many will probably agree on, that pushes prices by a LOT, like a LOT LOT.
Buying that one elusive motif page and reselling it for twice, thrice or even ten times the value is hurting the entire community by limiting use/consumption to a very small percentage of players.
My suggestion to alleviate this is to simply make all items purchased on guild traders or even send by mail auto-bind to ones account.
That would solve a lot of the issues that reselling is causing.
How that would work for consumables or upgrade materials, I cannot fathom. I do not know how binding works technologically in ESO.
What does the community think?
Am I right?
Wrong?
Am I missing something?
Please comment and PLEASE be civil.
I have a feeling that some of my stuff gets bought fast because someone wants to re sell it.
Also trading is buying lower, selling higher, nothing wrong with it.Edited by Scardan on March 23, 2021 6:44PMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The most common form of flipping I see personally is Potent Nirncrux. I list for about 25k, and those get quickly picked up in bulk by players who presumably relist them in their Mournhold or Rawlkha guild for whatever their going price is - around 28-30k, the last time I did this.
Thing is, I could match them for price and I'd probably still sell my Potent Nirncrux soon enough. However, it wouldn't be as fast as I want. I farm mats, so I'm constantly wanting to cycle my trader slots so I can list the mats I'm farming now. I want quick sales, so I list at a bulk bargain price, which gets picked up by active traders who're looking for those bargains.
And that illustrates one of the flaws with the anti-flipping argument.
The "market price" isn't set by the people who're selling in bulk at bargain prices. The market price is set by what players are willing to pay for something. Most players can't afford to drop 100k gold on 4 Potent Nirncrux in one shot. Most players who need nirnhoned traits can port into a trading hub and pay 29-30k for one potent nirncrux they need for their weapon. Therefore, the market price is set by the buyers at the trading hubs, and suppliers like me set our bulk/bargain prices accordingly.
If you're reading this going "Dang, I'd like some Potent Nirncrux for 25k," then please review my earlier post about how ZOS would like you to spend your time. Either you farm it (like me) or you farm the money to buy it when bulk bargains come around. If you can't drop 100k on 4 Potent Nirncrux in the event that you just happen to stop at my outlying guild, my bargain price doesn't do you much good.
If you're reading this going "But if there were no flippers, everyone would sell at the 25k price, right?" Nope. Remember that those "flippers" are actually bringing my bargain price up to the market price at which buyers will purchase the Potent nirncrux.
"Okay, but what if we implemented the OP's idea so people only buy what they personally need?"
If I'm selling Potent Nirncrux to folks who need it for their own weapons, well, you do see that I now have zero incentive to offer them a bargain, right? I mean, what are they gonna do? Run around Craglorn for farming mats? Go for it! Or just buy my Potent Nirncrux for whatever price the market will bear.7 -
allhailskippy✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work.
It's also why basically no nation on earth actually has completely unregulated markets - it's a recipe for disaster.
If it feels unethical it's because it is unethical - more folks should listen to their conscience.
I'll again reference reality vs video games.
A large part of what we do in this game would be considered 'unethical' should it be examined from a "reality" perspective.
- Murdering people
- Stealing
- Trespassing
- Pulling bugs apart and taking their guts
- Skinning thousands of animals
- Barging into a dungeon, killing all its inhabitants and stealing all of their posssions i
Flipping items for gold in this setting is NOT unethical.Hireling Wanted! - An Elder Scrolls Tale https://hirelingwanted.com6 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work.
It's also why basically no nation on earth actually has completely unregulated markets - it's a recipe for disaster.
If it feels unethical it's because it is unethical - more folks should listen to their conscience.
What "disaster" is resulting in ESO?
Players have to spend more gold than they'd like on certain items that they think are necessary for enjoying the game?
Players have to consider actually farming for items they think are necessary for enjoying the game?
-serious question from someone who farms for mats to sell for gold so I can buy the things I don't want to farm for.2 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I imply that any social interaction between players should be regulated in a game. Do you imply that scamming, for example, should be allowed in games?allhailskippy wrote: »Dark Brrotherhood is interacting with NPCs. Trading is interacting with players. Managing possible interactions between players is a sign of game with healthy community.
This was said because you were implying that real world rules apply in a video game. They do not.allhailskippy wrote: »You may increase the price of any product (computer, phone, food) right now 100 times and still sell such an amount, that you get at least the same overall income (if it is possible to build monopoly). That doesn't mean that the value of any such product is 100 more. That simply means that you are selling it to 100 less customers.
If I list an item for 100g and it sells for 100g. Then that's its value.
You are again, arguing reality vs video games. They do not operate the same, and they should not operate the same.
You can list an item for 100g, it can be bought for 100g by one number of players. You can list an item for 100 000g, it can be bought by another number of players. You can list item for 100 000 000g, and it can be bought by you brother-in-wealth. If you prevent selling this item by other players, then what is the value of the item?The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0