Neiska wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

I made a thread on Monday concerned about the tank changes myself. Especially seeing the Heavy Armor penalties. I still dislike them. And I still have more playing to do to test it, and there are things I genuinely dislike about the change. But after playing it a couple days, I'm not convinced of the total doom and glow quite yet.

I respect your insight and thank you for sharing. But my CP is a mere 180. As I said, I am on the bottom rung. And tanking is so resourced starved its painful. I have just enough resources to block 2-3 times, and dodge once. A single Dodge takes roughly 1/4th of my stamina bar. Before, a heavy attack could refill 30-40% of my stamina. Now? I might get 10-20%.

What this means is, even if I do absolutely nothing, but block and dodge and heavy attack. Nothing else whatsoever - no buffs, no debuffs, no absorbs, nothing, if the fight goes on long enough, I will become stamina starved. From that point, its a cascading failure in defenses until my demise.

This has happened to me on dungeon bosses, this has happened to me on world bosses. This has happened to me when soloing as well.

This is even while wearing 2 heavy armor healing sets - Leeching Plate, and Crimson. Even with all that free passive healing to boot, I still run out of resources, and I still die.

And I was under the impression that I was quite well geared for my rather low CP level. I mean I even have my monster set as well, and I still experience a failure in defense, even if I do absolutely everything I can to manage stamina - potions, every skill morph to help reduce cost, CP points into cheaper blocks and dodges, everything, I will "still" run out. Its just a question of "how long."

I have given thought to changing over to medium armor, but I only just finished completing my heavy armor sets with great difficulty and no small help from friends. Moreso, I am skeptical it would resolve matters or fix things.

So, while you 800+ cp folks might not feel so bad, for those of us in the freshly 50 to 200 range, its resource starvation, and nothing you can do will help, aside from flat out not blocking or dodging and just eating the hit.

Now apply that to solo play and it gets worse. Much, much, worse.

Tanking is a little different in ESO than other MMOs. That can good and, but if youre not enjoying, do something else.

For solo play I'd suggest swapping gear. Without any additional change simply changing my gear brings my weapon damage to just under 5500. Thats no offensive CP, tri stat tank food, and the attronarch mundus. My sets, while good sets, are not optimal for overland. Id be better off with a crafted set than AY in overland, but it works. This change made life easier on tanks in that regard. It does require an additional weapon line, which requires more skill points, but its not out of reach.

For tanking, remember, if you have a frost staff equipped and the points in the destruction staff, it changes the resource used to magicka rather than stamina while on that bar. There are times it helps and times it wont. There can be a stigma to using staves on tanks, which I mostly ignore. My main tank is a warden, which utilizes the frost line. They are essentially an elemental mage. It makes my life easier to use one.

In dungeons you will usually always have a better experience with guilds or friends. 1. The healer tends to give the tank a lot of resources, not just with orbs and/or shards, but their sets as well. Elemental drain is also a huge help. In PUGs you may not even have a healer much less one that it set up to help the tank. They can be a tremendous help. If you havent experienced just how much better it can be to run with a good healer, you should. 2. And this is mostly my opinion, tanking is the most fun in more difficult content. I really enjoy vet DLCs. While I can have PUG'd many times, I find the experience much more enjoyable with friends.

totzummrdave_ESO wrote: »

Yep, add me in this list. I was going to purchase a year of ESO+ for myself and a friend next month, but not now. Not ever. I'll vote with my wallet and ZOS can do without my money from now on.

I have plenty of examples from this massive nerf fest, so I'll just post a couple of them.
What was the reasoning behind slowing harvesting back down regardless of points spent? Being punished in an overhaul is a surefire way to guarantee loss of income.
Why are all CP perks locked behind other perks? This Fallout style of spending points before you can spend points is ***.

The spending points before u spend points is done in Skyrim. Also its generally done in alot of other games with skill trees

Goregrinder wrote: »

SimonBelmont wrote: »

What the hell is a "Martial Skill"..? Is that just melee..? Are we too cool to use the word "melee"?

I tried various CP arrangements, for the purpose of tanking. I feel pretty confidant saying that tanks got screwed the hardest here. Even basic, easy-mode stuff starves you for Stam. It's totally ridiculous. And the damage output..? I know tanks aren't meant to be high on the DPS meters, but tank damage is crazy-low..

What's the name of that dun with all the grappling, that looks like a desert-ish tomb..? My (random) party members managed to die on one of the poison waves on the Lich boss, and only I was alive to go around the ledges and kill off the adds up there. Hoooly crap... It was embarrassing how long it took! I had a 2h on the back-bar and even with the higher dmg 2h skills (though, sadly I didn't have executioner on my bar), I was wondering, "am I just missing the target? if so, HOW am I missing? the guy's RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!!!"

And on the issue of Stam recovery, I was just praying they'd gib the bosses before I ran out of Stam.. It's like, once combat starts, you can pretty much set a 45 sec timer (if that!) to let you know when your Stam will flat-line.

SimonBelmont wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

SimonBelmont wrote: »

What the hell is a "Martial Skill"..? Is that just melee..? Are we too cool to use the word "melee"?

Has nothing to do with range, it counts bleeds, phys., disease type etc.

Okay. Thanks.

So, does the attack which applies the effect count as the martial skill too, or just the secondary effect (bleed, poison, disease, etc).

Any attack that's magical is a Magic attack. Anything that's not a Magic attack is Martial. Frost, Fire, Lightning damage are all magic attacks. Not all Melee attacks are Martial attacks, they are not interchangeable words. Templar's puncturing sweeps is a melee attack with 8 meter range, but it does Magic damage. Not a martial skill. Dizzy swing is a martial skill because it does physical damage, not magical damage. Someone bleeding is not magical. Someone poisoned is not magical. Someone hit by an ice shard that shot out of a staff suddenly is 100% magical.

Yes & no.

Attacks are generally split between Magical and Elemental and are countered by Spell Reistance on one side, and Physical, Disease, and Poison, and recently added Bleed, countered by Physical Resistance on the other side. Then there is Oblivion damage, which is in a category by itself and bypasses resistances entirely.

The second set will usually fall under the Marital (Physical) category, the first under Magic. While this is usually the case, it's not always that way. Tooltips for skills, gear, enchants, and CP's are usually very specific and include (or exclude) all relevant types. Martial should generally be under the "Non-magical" and oblivion umbrella.

I regret renewing my ESO+. All resistances are just, gone. A flat max hp buff doesn't help in end game. Last week we were able to get Fang Focused without much of a hassle, today we couldn't even clear vMOL on its own.

@Agenericname - I do appreciate your feedback, but I wouldn't even call tanking here, "tanking". At least not anymore. In 90% of all activities a tank is at a handicap compared to other archetypes.

Random dungeons - Tank's aren't needed, so people can pull 2 or 3 groups and fearlessly aoe them down so quickly they are under no threat at all. In other games such activities are risky at best. Here? Not so much. In that circumstance I would argue that the DD is effectively more of a tank than I am. They are durable enough, do far more damage, and hold more mobs. I could stand there and do nothing and likely no one would notice.

Soloing - I would call it bad design to "require" an important role such as a tank to have to jump through hoops and require alternate sets of gear merely to do their overland and daily quests, when no one else is required to jump from dungeons to solo actions. For raids or trials perhaps, but I can only imagine the forum posts if all of a sudden DDs were required to use multiple sets of gear.

If you ask me, squishies either do too much damage, or aren't squishy enough, if they can just AoE carelessly in 90% of the content. Why even have a tank archtype at all in that case? For the majority of the game, it wouldn't matter.

From all my discussions and experiences thus far if you are a tank, then at low levels this was a boost. If you are high CP, its a little bit of a boost. But for anyone else - from a fresh 50 to mid level CP, it was a hit. Not as far as damage mitigation goes, but resources. Instead of being a defensive support role, I no longer can buff my group. Which possibly ZoS wants to make DD's have to take more of a role in, which I doubt it will be taken to quickly.

My gameplay is now spam heavy attack, block, dodge, taunt. That's really about all my stamina will allow. There have been talks about tanks now being in medium armor, but that's honestly kind of dumb if that's what they were going for. Why would the heavy armor DDs be the only ones meant to use heavy armor, and the tanks medium armor? Not to mention all the best tanking sets are heavy armor too.

I just feel forced to change to medium armor, and reduce any actual effective support to my group, aside from taking that single hit the boss does every 20 seconds no one else could survive. And my entire gameplay in all other activities are far behind everyone else for that single feature of taking that boss hit. Each to their own, but for me personally that is not why I rolled a tank. I do not want to merely spam heavy attack, block, dodge, and taunt, which is all I can do at my current CP. And I am not going to take the chance and claw my way up the hundreds of CPs to find out if it gets any better. I suspect it does around the 1k mark, but I simply wont fight tooth and nail to get there, when any DD can just easymode it to that level.

But I do thank you for your words of encouragement. But this patch has greatly diminished any desire for me to continue tanking. Its simply too rough on the resources to do anything aside from basic tanking actions, and nothing else.

Random_Zombie wrote: »

I honestly just really don't want to play right now. I think of something I wanna do, then I hop on and remember they want me to commit 25% of my slotted green passives to regain the ability to harvest at normal speed and I get mad and log off. The whole thing is just a slap in the face.

Edit-my bad---I didnt realize I had to move it up to the activation position

Everything I enjoy seems to be broken.

Need to farm CP from 888 to 1200 to be effective tanking vet content I guess.

I can't quest at all on my tanks or healers now. I could swap one set of gear and a few skills and at least going into the open world wasn't horrible. Guess I'll respecc my 3 tanks and 2 healers to dps and not bother with dungeons for a while. Resetting CP and re-gearing completely isn't worth the headache now.

My shealth darloc brae farming build seems to be broken too. Mobs are noticing me a lot more often. Stay in combat as much time as I spend farming.

It never should have been a straight CP swap. It should have been based on experience gained.

volkeswagon wrote: »

ESO is bad at combat. Nerfing sets and skills because of PVP is poor management. Until they separate the two it will always tick peoole off.

this is interesting from another lead developer in the industry:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/03/12/destiny-2-is-now-absolutely-balancing-pvp-and-pve-separately/?sh=30df84997b0f

QuebraRegra wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

ESO is bad at combat. Nerfing sets and skills because of PVP is poor management. Until they separate the two it will always tick peoole off.

this is interesting from another lead developer in the industry:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/03/12/destiny-2-is-now-absolutely-balancing-pvp-and-pve-separately/?sh=30df84997b0f

The other awesome feature of "that" other game is the account-wide triumphs (achievements). It allows players to enjoy all classes, exotics, while having the feeling that everything participates to their progression rather than stepping back each time, and the developers to steer the meta over time rather than trying to abolish it. So much more creativity and thought...

I like this patch.
This is the beginning to improve the game balance of PvP.
This patch made Battlegrounds a lot of fun.

jirusan wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

ESO is bad at combat. Nerfing sets and skills because of PVP is poor management. Until they separate the two it will always tick peoole off.

this is interesting from another lead developer in the industry:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/03/12/destiny-2-is-now-absolutely-balancing-pvp-and-pve-separately/?sh=30df84997b0f

The other awesome feature of "that" other game is the account-wide triumphs (achievements). It allows players to enjoy all classes, exotics, while having the feeling that everything participates to their progression rather than stepping back each time, and the developers to steer the meta over time rather than trying to abolish it. So much more creativity and thought...

I know what you mean. The real challenge of this game is rebuilding your character every time they do a patch. You're at war with the developers, not the Daedra. It's backward progression.

Honestly with the way this game makes sweeping changes every other week there ought to be free class changes anytime you want them and a system in place where players can refund their gold armor to get their materials back.