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Do you support the planned Racial Passive changes without Free change tokens?

  • VoidCommander
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    I am kinda neutral on that. Almost all of my characters are non-meta. I did not race changed any of them back in Wrathstone and I still have unused tokens. Will I change them ? Definitely not, even if I had more tokens.

    But, I clearly see why people who actually care about competitive gameplay (pvp, pve score runs etc.) can feel kinda "cheated". So ZOS could give some free tokens, just to avoid backlash or something. But as I stated before - I (personally) do not care much for chasing what is BiS & Meta.

    I wish more non-endgame players shared your perspective on the issue.
  • AyaDark
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Racial passives is not some thing that is hard to balance.

    And if it is changed - compensate it to players.

    Race passives must not ever change in the first place, so any changes to race passive = need compensation like race change tokens !
  • Seraphayel
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    NoSoup wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I don’t know what it is you care about in the game, but clearly you don’t understand the effort that goes into making a solid endgame build if you so egregiously undervalue a player’s desire to have the proper race for their role.

    Every race can fulfill every role to the amount that’s needed to succeed in every part of the game - from hardcore PvP to hardcore PvE and everything in between.

    Your choice of race does matter on paper, it doesn’t matter in reality (e.g. in game). There’s no content that requires you to have a perfect race-group-setup to be successful. Every race is a proper race when it comes to game mechanics and the game itself. The issues solely exist in players‘ heads and, as I already said, on paper, in statistics, parses and metrics - luckily those things don’t make or break the game.

    You're either dillusional or completely out of touch of the realities of this game. We've already had some of THE best players currently playing the game saying they will be race changing due to these changes.

    You cannot stand up here and say passives mean nothing if you want to be the best you can be or get the acheivements you want, the only people making those comments are the one's resided to the fact they'll never be good enough to get them in the first place. (Feel free to prove me wrong, show us your flawless on an agonian, or stam brenton, or magic orc)

    They’re race changing - ok, who cares? Those are the ones that don’t even need it because their skill ceiling is the 0.01% that almost nobody in this forum will ever achieve. They’re doing it for the sake of having the best parses on paper, they don’t do it because it’s required. It’s just the shtick of meta-players.

    And again, you can be the best (on paper) if you want, just not at the cost of Zenimax. If you’re really striving for the last 1%, there are two options: level a new character or get a token out of the store. If it really is so important for you all, then spend the money or time.
    Edited by Seraphayel on March 5, 2021 1:07PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Seraphayel
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    NoSoup wrote: »
    nukk3r wrote: »
    Some people care too much about numbers. I was never refused a place in a trial group based on my main character's race and class (khajiit stamblade). The only time someone told me to reroll an orc was when I couldn't break a 60k parse threshold, now I parse over 80k and still play a khajiit. My tank is a redguard, and I cleared vet DLC dungeon hardmodes on that toon. I never even considered playing a nord tank.

    Kudos, top 10%, and I bet you have less than a 80ms ping. Well done, fell proud of yourself. You are far from a representation of the average player....

    Average players are exactly those that aren’t affected by the changes as their skill ceiling is not high enough to get any effect of marginal adjustments to racial passives.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • NoSoup
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    NoSoup wrote: »
    nukk3r wrote: »
    Some people care too much about numbers. I was never refused a place in a trial group based on my main character's race and class (khajiit stamblade). The only time someone told me to reroll an orc was when I couldn't break a 60k parse threshold, now I parse over 80k and still play a khajiit. My tank is a redguard, and I cleared vet DLC dungeon hardmodes on that toon. I never even considered playing a nord tank.

    Kudos, top 10%, and I bet you have less than a 80ms ping. Well done, fell proud of yourself. You are far from a representation of the average player....

    Average players are exactly those that aren’t affected by the changes as their skill ceiling is not high enough to get any effect of marginal adjustments to racial passives.

    A: You're not elite as you pretend to be. Average players will care and you're just another one of them, please don't put yourself on a pedsestal.
    B: You say racial changes mean nothing but people's racial choices were so important you started a poll on them, what a coincidence.
    C: Anyone over a 100ms ping that take this game seriously, wants to be competitive and win will be chasing higher stats...
    Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....
  • AyaDark
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Why game must look to Average players ?

    If players do not go some content, do not play it, why desision how to balance it must include their opinion ?

    Opinion of only those who understand what he talk must be calculated.

    Do we go to doctor when we have problems with health or some average machine master that do not know anything about medecine ?

    If for average players it is ok and they do not care, just this point of view is not important.

    If people try some content hard and know why it is important and it is hard with out it, they know what they talk about. And it is important for them and for such content.

    If you do not like and do not go somecontent, why others who like it must not use it ?
  • laksikus
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    NoSoup wrote: »
    laksikus wrote: »
    I have to respec 3 Bretons and 2 Redguards which weren't the best races even before, and are are now utter trash.

    Please include racial respec in the Heroes Reforged event perks ffs.
    If the ploy is to sell race change tokens - it is a pepega approach.

    I personally won't buy them- I'd rather make a new character and grind to 50, which we'll be able to do much faster with new patch anyway.

    Why are breton and redguard trash in the in new patch? Werent those 2 races streight out buffed.
    And why would grinding a char from 1 to 50 be faster?

    Grinding a character from 1-50 is faster than grinding for the gold to get a race change if you don't want/can't spend real money to fill ZOS' coffers

    Thats clearly not what he meant. Cos that doesnt change between this and new patch.

    And i would argue that leveling a char from 1 to 50 is not really faster than grinding gold for a race change.
    If xp were the only thing thats needed for a new char sure. But for mag chars you also need mage guild, untaunted, psijic, a lot of skyshards.

    And grinding gold isnt the onky way to get gold. It wouldnet even be in my top 5 to get gold
  • VoidCommander
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    NoSoup wrote: »
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    I don’t know what it is you care about in the game, but clearly you don’t understand the effort that goes into making a solid endgame build if you so egregiously undervalue a player’s desire to have the proper race for their role.

    Every race can fulfill every role to the amount that’s needed to succeed in every part of the game - from hardcore PvP to hardcore PvE and everything in between.

    Your choice of race does matter on paper, it doesn’t matter in reality (e.g. in game). There’s no content that requires you to have a perfect race-group-setup to be successful. Every race is a proper race when it comes to game mechanics and the game itself. The issues solely exist in players‘ heads and, as I already said, on paper, in statistics, parses and metrics - luckily those things don’t make or break the game.

    You're either dillusional or completely out of touch of the realities of this game. We've already had some of THE best players currently playing the game saying they will be race changing due to these changes.

    You cannot stand up here and say passives mean nothing if you want to be the best you can be or get the acheivements you want, the only people making those comments are the one's resided to the fact they'll never be good enough to get them in the first place. (Feel free to prove me wrong, show us your flawless on an agonian, or stam brenton, or magic orc)

    They’re race changing - ok, who cares? Those are the ones that don’t even need it because their skill ceiling is the 0.01% that almost nobody in this forum will ever achieve. They’re doing it for the sake of having the best parses on paper, they don’t do it because it’s required. It’s just the shtick of meta-players.

    And again, you can be the best (on paper) if you want, just not at the cost of Zenimax. If you’re really striving for the last 1%, there are two options: level a new character or get a token out of the store. If it really is so important for you all, then spend the money or time.

    Can’t really roll a new toon when I’m going for Godslayer on my main now can I? And why is it fair to me as a fellow player that I have to spend $30 on a race change to play the content I want to play competitively?

    I assume that since you are so relaxed with me needing to pay out of my own pocket to keep the meta race I planned for since my character’s creation because the powerful devs decided to change the meta for something I can’t control in game, that you are willing to foot the 3000 crown bill?

    No really, zos didn’t come into your playstyle, *** it up, then demand you 3000 crowns to fix the problem they themselves caused. Just because the problem doesn’t apply to you directly, doesn’t mean it is a very real problem felt by thousands of other players in the community.

    For real though, pc na @voidcommander. Send me some race change tokens since you think it is so simple to just buy them to stay meta. Money is clearly no issue for you if you have that attitude.
  • wolfbone
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    feels more like some scummy change to get people to pay for crowns so they can change race when they find out their chosen race is now useless
  • Halcyon_Kismet
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    It would be different if this was something we could respec out of or simply not use the skill. These passives are tied to our characters, and for a lot of us, the passives are directly why we chose our characters race.

    If only buffs were being handed out to weaker races, then no token would be needed. However, nerfs were made and it is only fair to allow the player to change the race if they so choose. Doing nothing after changing these integral part of the characters is not fair to the players.

    One good idea I saw was to remove the cost of changing during the Hero's Reforged event. This would likely make any players that wanted to change happy as well as prevent players that may or may not have wanted to change from having a stockpile of tokens.
  • ThorianB
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    For race changes affected characters should have 7 days after first login of that character to change races( no race change tokens). We pick races for reasons and for me personally the choice between two races may boil down to something minor so even a minor change would affect which race i would choose.
  • Starlock
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    I'm just gonna borrow from something I wrote up in the PTS forum when someone raised questions about the ethics of all this:
    Starlock wrote: »
    No, no, you've got it all wrong - remember everyone, it's optional! You don't have to be a min-maxer to play the game. That is a choice you made. You don't have to play the game that way at all. You can just not buy it - therefore race change is optional. Charging customers a large sum of money for a race change instead of having an in-game mechanism to do this is okay, because it's optional.

    ...

    *cough*

    ...

    The above, effectively, is what a lot of us get told when we point out the problems with this game's monetization for other aspects of the game. From housing to mounts, costumes to motifs, this game has a monetization problem but we get told "but it's optional" as if that somehow means it isn't a problem. And while I could here smiling in smug satisfaction at "finally, maybe, more players will get what I've been going on about now that it's biting them," that's not my style. Because race change *should* be a base game feature accessible to everyone for in-game gold from an actual NPC (maybe even part of a quest!). So should appearance changes, name changes, alliance changes, outfit slots, pet-exclusive inventory space, cash-shop exclusive ultimate charge ups (yes, that's going to be a thing - it's in the patch notes), and on and on and on.

    Once monetization is baked into a game's design, rarely is it relented. This rubbish has become normalized, in part because those who raise the alarm get told "but it's optional" or "but it's only cosmetic" or some other thoroughly debunked excuse that devalues the customer's time and money. This game has been sliding down the slope of unethical monetization ever since someone thought it was a brilliant idea to introduce gambling. Perhaps earlier, but that's when things started getting ridiculous.

    Good luck getting any of this to change. The only advice I have is to be careful what you buy in the cash shop, carefully track your spending, and really ask yourself some hard questions about what things are really worth to you. If we're lucky, they'll release a mini-DLC that just gives people infinite race/appearance changes for a one-time cost. If we're really lucky, they'll just go "wait, this was scummy, here, have this as a base-game feature." Hell, I can dream, can't I? *sigh*

    All that said, I'm personally OK with them not handing out free race change tokens largely because I am hoping - very much hoping - they STOP making this a cash shop only feature in the first place. Where are the forerunners of the Riften face sculptor? Put him/her/zir in the game already!
  • Araneae6537
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Starlock wrote: »
    I'm just gonna borrow from something I wrote up in the PTS forum when someone raised questions about the ethics of all this:
    Starlock wrote: »
    No, no, you've got it all wrong - remember everyone, it's optional! You don't have to be a min-maxer to play the game. That is a choice you made. You don't have to play the game that way at all. You can just not buy it - therefore race change is optional. Charging customers a large sum of money for a race change instead of having an in-game mechanism to do this is okay, because it's optional.

    ...

    *cough*

    ...

    The above, effectively, is what a lot of us get told when we point out the problems with this game's monetization for other aspects of the game. From housing to mounts, costumes to motifs, this game has a monetization problem but we get told "but it's optional" as if that somehow means it isn't a problem. And while I could here smiling in smug satisfaction at "finally, maybe, more players will get what I've been going on about now that it's biting them," that's not my style. Because race change *should* be a base game feature accessible to everyone for in-game gold from an actual NPC (maybe even part of a quest!). So should appearance changes, name changes, alliance changes, outfit slots, pet-exclusive inventory space, cash-shop exclusive ultimate charge ups (yes, that's going to be a thing - it's in the patch notes), and on and on and on.

    Once monetization is baked into a game's design, rarely is it relented. This rubbish has become normalized, in part because those who raise the alarm get told "but it's optional" or "but it's only cosmetic" or some other thoroughly debunked excuse that devalues the customer's time and money. This game has been sliding down the slope of unethical monetization ever since someone thought it was a brilliant idea to introduce gambling. Perhaps earlier, but that's when things started getting ridiculous.

    Good luck getting any of this to change. The only advice I have is to be careful what you buy in the cash shop, carefully track your spending, and really ask yourself some hard questions about what things are really worth to you. If we're lucky, they'll release a mini-DLC that just gives people infinite race/appearance changes for a one-time cost. If we're really lucky, they'll just go "wait, this was scummy, here, have this as a base-game feature." Hell, I can dream, can't I? *sigh*

    All that said, I'm personally OK with them not handing out free race change tokens largely because I am hoping - very much hoping - they STOP making this a cash shop only feature in the first place. Where are the forerunners of the Riften face sculptor? Put him/her/zir in the game already!

    I very much agree with your write-up! And I agree that these shouldn’t be cash-shop only features, but the fact is that they are and I’ve not seen any evidence of their moving away from that, so I am puzzled why you use that as a reason to be okay with no tokens? I would think that on principle you would agree that ZOS should give players race and name change tokens if these changes aren’t going to be even temporarily accessible in game.
    Edited by Araneae6537 on March 5, 2021 4:39PM
  • Kiralyn2000
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    Starlock wrote: »

    All that said, I'm personally OK with them not handing out free race change tokens largely because I am hoping - very much hoping - they STOP making this a cash shop only feature in the first place.

    You're right - they should remove race change from the cash shop. And not put it in the game anywhere, either. There's no reason (an no "I take the game Seriously™" isn't a reason. It's an absurdity.) to change your character's race. Make a new damn character if you want a different race, like we did for years & years before people started expecting all these stupid cash shop "change" functions.

    edit: one of the biggest mistakes this game did was to put score/"leaderboards" on PvE content, infecting PvE with the whole ultra-competitiveness that's part of what makes PvP such a plague. Who the hell cares that your DPS is 1% higher than that other guy's, or that your team finished <dungeon> 3 seconds faster?
    Edited by Kiralyn2000 on March 5, 2021 3:59PM
  • Araneae6537
    Araneae6537
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Starlock wrote: »

    All that said, I'm personally OK with them not handing out free race change tokens largely because I am hoping - very much hoping - they STOP making this a cash shop only feature in the first place.

    You're right - they should remove race change from the cash shop. And not put it in the game anywhere, either. There's no reason (an no "I take the game Seriously™" isn't a reason. It's an absurdity.) to change your character's race. Make a new damn character if you want a different race, like we did for years & years before people started expecting all these stupid cash shop "change" functions.

    edit: one of the biggest mistakes this game did was to put score/"leaderboards" on PvE content, infecting PvE with the whole ultra-competitiveness that's part of what makes PvP such a plague. Who the hell cares that your DPS is 1% higher than that other guy's, or that your team finished <dungeon> 3 seconds faster?

    I have less than no interest in PvE leaderboards and have never changed any of my characters’ races and probably won’t, but I recognize that other people enjoy the game differently than I do and some find enjoyment in what I would find tedious or stressful and vice versa. Ultra competitive play, dueling, chasing leaderboards, are all perfectly valid ways to play.

    And even more to the point, the ability to race change is a feature in this game and many players have spent money to maximize their characters. With changes to racial passives, it is reasonable to expect players to be compensated in some way. Yes, MMO’s change, but other changes such as BiS armor, builds, etc. can be adapted to within game without anyone spending additional money. Changes to race can not be so adapted to.
  • Starlock
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    I very much agree with your write-up! And I agree that these shouldn’t be cash-shop only features, but the fact is that they are and I’ve not seen any evidence of their moving away from that, so I am puzzled why you use that as a reason to be okay with no tokens? I would think that on principle you would agree that ZOS should give players race and name change tokens if these changes aren’t going to be even temporarily accessible in game. Or is it because features that you do care about remain cash-shop only or worse, locked behind gamble crates?

    Sorry, I see how that could be confusing on that last paragraph there.

    It's more a vain hope that they'll add an in-game way of doing race/appearance/name changes. And alliance changes, for that matter. It would have been really, really cool to have an in-game NPC or a quest to facilitate these.

    Imagine how that would look for the alliance change. You'd have to go do some sort of small mission to prove your loyalty to the new alliance. Perhaps traveling to a small new zone where you steal plans from your alliance or sabotage their siege weapons?

    Then I imagine how it would look for name/race/appearance change. We'd have the precursors of the face sculptor dwelling within the outlaw refuges of capitol cities. They could remake your face for a fee, or even your race. Name change would require them sending heralds all around tamriel and would be an extra gold charge. We could also maybe actually have actual salons instead if all you want to do is change your hair and hair color.
  • kojou
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    I like free stuff... :smile:

    Seriously though, I won't change race on any characters anyway. It doesn't make a big enough difference for me to care.
    Playing since beta...
  • Araneae6537
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Starlock wrote: »
    I very much agree with your write-up! And I agree that these shouldn’t be cash-shop only features, but the fact is that they are and I’ve not seen any evidence of their moving away from that, so I am puzzled why you use that as a reason to be okay with no tokens? I would think that on principle you would agree that ZOS should give players race and name change tokens if these changes aren’t going to be even temporarily accessible in game. Or is it because features that you do care about remain cash-shop only or worse, locked behind gamble crates?

    Sorry, I see how that could be confusing on that last paragraph there.

    It's more a vain hope that they'll add an in-game way of doing race/appearance/name changes. And alliance changes, for that matter. It would have been really, really cool to have an in-game NPC or a quest to facilitate these.

    Imagine how that would look for the alliance change. You'd have to go do some sort of small mission to prove your loyalty to the new alliance. Perhaps traveling to a small new zone where you steal plans from your alliance or sabotage their siege weapons?

    Then I imagine how it would look for name/race/appearance change. We'd have the precursors of the face sculptor dwelling within the outlaw refuges of capitol cities. They could remake your face for a fee, or even your race. Name change would require them sending heralds all around tamriel and would be an extra gold charge. We could also maybe actually have actual salons instead if all you want to do is change your hair and hair color.

    Sorry, I removed the last sentence from my post it seemed like a dig when I reread it. :hushed: There are different ways it could be implemented in game — personally I’d rather a magical or even supernatural route to race change, via a powerful mage or even Daedra. The idea of a “face sculptor” creeps me out a bit and logically then, shouldn’t you only look like a different race but still retain your inherent racial characteristics? :sweat_smile:

    Regardless, of how, I agree that more should be obtainable with purely in game means! But until I see any sign of such, I remain concerned over the direction ZOS seems to be moving regarding cash shop items, making more extras only obtainable that way. :frowning: That, and for the players it does matter to and who may have even already spent money changing their race to min-max, is why I voted in favor of race change tokens this patch.
  • Wolfpaw
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    The complete lack of empathic design in ESO, and building up this community, is baffling.
    Edited by Wolfpaw on March 5, 2021 4:59PM
  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    There is no need for that, the change are minor
    Minmaxing is a choice, your choice
    Nobody is forcing anyone other than themself to minmax their character

    Its not like the changed race are bad either, they are still a solid choice for what they were used prior to the patch
  • ArchMikem
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    My characters are always going to be who and what they are when they were made, regardless of stats.

    I just went to the PTS patch notes page and read the changes. Even though my Argonians are getting a slight nerf to their resource return from pots, all of my Khajiit are getting nothing but buffs, even if they're minor. So I'm not all that affected by this in the end.

    Edited by ArchMikem on March 5, 2021 5:41PM
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • dcam86b14_ESO
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    Idc honestly. People have had plenty of time to plan accordingly. Expecting free things all the time there's a change is kind of dumb.
  • Brenticus12
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    I can't imagine ever changing the race of my characters. The race is part of why I made them.

    (Also, I'm used to things changing in MMOs. You just roll with it.
    And certainly no-one is "forcing" people to pay for race changes. Other than they themselves.)

    If someone wants to stay competitive in PVE/PVP then they're likely going to be forced into race changing. For example, seeing people run Breton on magplar/magdk in endgame compositions wasn't uncommon because of their notorious sustain issues but now they're bottom of the barrel and you're better off running Khajiit.
  • Ingenon
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    To me it is pretty simple. Either ZOS should not change the racial passives, or ZOS should provide free and/or discounted race change tokens. Folks who are trying to do their best at PVE and/or PVP while playing this game should not have to pay full price in the crown store because ZOS makes a change. Discounted race change tokens would be appropriate for some period of time after the change goes live for all platforms.

  • SirLeeMinion
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    They have moved some threads that discuss this to an only slightly related post and buried the issue. Posting it as a poll to avoid this was a good idea. Personally, I was surprised that so few responded to my initial post on the subject. Either I worded it poorly, or people just don't care. That said, many people in my guilds are still hoping for / expecting a token or three, because they don't read the forums.
    Edited by SirLeeMinion on March 5, 2021 7:13PM
  • Chrysa1is
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    If you're an ESO+ member, use your free crowns. If you are not an ESO+ member, buy some. Sorted.
  • Starlock
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    Chrysa1is wrote: »
    If you're an ESO+ member, use your free crowns. If you are not an ESO+ member, buy some. Sorted.

    Hmm. I don't recall ever getting free crowns when I was a subscriber. I got the crowns because I paid money for the subscription (aka, they were not free).

    The last time we got legitimately free stuff as subscribers was back when they gave out crates to subscribers on free ESO+ days. They haven't done that in quite a long time.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    No. The changes justify some form of Race change relief.
    Not sure what the best relief is. My solution would be some sort of unlimited free race change, but only for a very short period of time after the new patch drops, any time racial passives are adjusted.

    This is what, the third time they have done an overhaul in racial passives since launch? It is one of those things that smells way fishier than it probably is, because clearly, it can be interpreted as a decision on their end motivated by Profit rather than Balance.

    I don't think these changes are all that earthshattering, but from a PR standpoint, they should probably do something.
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    My characters all got better, except for the Nord I'm leveling. But I didn't pick the race for the tankiness, I just wanted to make a clever woman.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    Yes. The changes are fine without anyform of race change relief.
    Not sure what the best relief is. My solution would be some sort of unlimited free race change, but only for a very short period of time after the new patch drops, any time racial passives are adjusted.

    This is what, the third time they have done an overhaul in racial passives since launch?

    "Overhaul?" Yeah, the second or third. Though there have been way more tweaks over the years.

    Honestly, if this is going to continue, the best solution would be to offer a parallel race change option in game for gold as an alternative to the crown store. But, again, I'm not terribly concerned. Race is a pretty minor consideration for overall player performance. So long as you're mindful of how changes affect your character, nearly anything goes, and even off-meta picks are still going to deliver reasonable damage output.

    I do have a concern that with Imperial's cost discount being increased, the Breton racial discount is now far less appealing, but that's a minor quibble.
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