F22nickell wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

Yes a) random solo should be a thing and b) crystals ought to depend on difficulty (say 5 for normal, 10 for dlc or vet non dlc, 15 for vet dlc) but that's only half the problem.

Random solo is never going to be a thing because the purpose of the "random" queue is to allow players who are queueing for specific dungeons to fill their groups.

In fact, they should probably disallow queueing for random with a full group.

But I agree that having tiered rewards (in Crystals, since that seems to be the main drive for these requests now) based on the dungeon you get would be good.

So you only get 1 crystal if you get FG1 in normal, but 20 if you do LoM in vet.

We would just find away around this as well ... Grouping with a sub lvl 45 and only 3 people for example.

I am one of those people who does not want to do DLC dungeons to get my transmute stones ... it's not the difficulty, its the time involved. If farming transmutes and I get a DLC, I immediately bail, grab another toon, and try again. In fact, I keep a rotating pool of sub lvl 45 healers for farming transmutes. I will team with guildies who have the same and between us, we can run 9-18 farming runs with at least one sub lvl 45 on the team.

Adding DLCs to the random queue to allow players who are queueing for specific dungeons to fill their queue for specific dungeons will not provide that ... People will continue to bail immediately. The dungeon may pop, but odds are 10 seconds in you will be down to 1 or 2 players to complete it. If that is preferable to a longer initial wait, so be it, but the outcome won't change.

Changing rewards MAY get more people to run DLCs, but it won't change anything to me (or similar) ... I simply do not like doing DLC dungeons, I won't do DLC dungeons, and will bail EVERY SINGLE TIME on a random PUG. Hell, I will bail City of Ash 2 every time as well.

I recognize this is annoying to other players and, given the choice, will group with other guild members to avoid forcing random people to deal with this. However, if no group is available, ultimately, I am farming transmutes for myself and will do what I need to do to maximize MY time online.

Meanwhile, I am avoiding random dungeons because I have so many transmute stones from occasional PvP that I'm always near cap. I'll probably do some more when the update comes out, since I have a bunch of healers and tanks that can handle themselves.

But it's really frustrating seeing people essentially getting in the queue that's meant to help other people and not actually wanting to help them.

I've spent years running random dungeons. I never bailed on a group, and really only ever had one group fall apart on my first trip into Scalecaller when nobody knew the dungeon and the rest of the group wasn't listening to the NPCs.

But if I decide I want work through the dungeons to complete my sticker book for everything, I better go with my guildies, because the players I helped throughout the years are obviously not willing to help me in turn.

That's pretty frustrating.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

I agree. Anyone who thinks this idea sucks can always leave the option on. Everyone wins. I'm back subbing since i moved to xbox, but this was the main reason I stopped subbing on PS4 for the last few months. Was sick fed up getting put into these dungeons that were either midway through upon my arrival or folk would bail. They're also the dungeons that you get the "failed to jump" message. Never got that message in a base game dungeon, so I'm assuming it's a dlc issue only?

I don't blame anyone that bails when they land in these dungeons. most are a ballache when you know others are getting the likes of City of Ash, DC, FG etc because they don't sub. That said, I don't mind the IC dungeons at all. In fact, those are great. Those were done correctly. They don't feel like a chore. The name of the dungeon escapes me as I have only ever done it once and hated it, but I just bail if i land in that werewolf hunting dungeon. I play games for enjoyment, not to push through unenjoyable experiences. As I said, others are free to leave the opinion.

And yet, the IC dungeons are just as long as any other DLC dungeon. But it's the devil everyone knows, just like City of Ash II, so it doesn't feel that way.

If you do get a change to get a group that knows the DLC dungeons to take you through on a chill run, they are a lot of fun.

Josira wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Imagine trying to do a random dungeon for the 10 crystals and getting Lair of Maarselok...

how bad/long is Lair of Maarselok?...ive never done it before. am curious

LoM is ez pz on normal, I've done it with everything from duos to a full group to pugs. (Getting a zens inferno out of it, on the other hand? Practically impossible.)

It's just LONG which makes it so tedious (see: farming said zens inferno). There's way too much running around and additional add fights because of the length.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

As I said before, it seems there are a whole lot of people in this game who actually hate playing the content.

The content is fun with friends, not so much with randoms who can barely do the role they signed up for.

Nah. Getting queues for them would be a headache if we did that. And sometimes, yes, you need to teach new players, it's a MMORPG. Teach them and add to the pool of players who know what they're doing.

That said I do think locking the DLC dungeons behind a certain number of Champion Points would be a good move.

OneForSorrow wrote: »

Nah. Getting queues for them would be a headache if we did that. And sometimes, yes, you need to teach new players, it's a MMORPG. Teach them and add to the pool of players who know what they're doing.

That said I do think locking the DLC dungeons behind a certain number of Champion Points would be a good move.

They already are locked behind CP, unless youre talking about normals.

The issue with the current system is less about the difficulty and more about the rewards being the same. Its the reason its preferable for some to run them as opposed to DLCs. Its simply the path of least resistance and if anything ZOS encourages it.

If they added multiple tiers of rewards consumerate with the risk/work involved, like XP and crystals, then I suspect you'd see fewer people queueing for random normals and avoiding the DLCs. The easiest, or perhaps fairest, way to do that would be to split the queues. As it stands, ZOS is basically encouraging folks to stay in easier content regardless of level of skill or patience.

I do not find the prospect of running normals or even base game vets mindlessly over and over for crystals or XP enjoyable at all. In fact, its only mildly more appealing to me than the dolmen circuit, but, @etchedpixels is correct in that its efficient. Its a low-risk/high-yield method. As long as this model exist this will be the conversation.

Kurat wrote: »

I don't get the complaints here. DLC dungeons can be soloed on normal. If you have trouble clearing them with 4 people then you're doing something seriously wrong.

how much longer does it take to solo them... that's my issue... much longer, for me.

I guess I need to git gud too?

Ascarl wrote: »

And if someone wants to experience a specific dungeon he/she won't sign up for random but a specific one.

...And the person who signed up for a specific one's group is filled with people who queued for a random one. And that person paid real money to have their dungeon be reasonably completable.

Starlock wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who find dlc dungeons too hard and long, have you thought about why that is? Maybe its because you have been avoiding them and only like to do FG1 and bail if anything else pops. Maybe if you tried to improve and learn the mechs you wouldn't find dlc ones hard anymore?

The assumptions here are interesting.

There's little doubt that the design of the DLC dungeons is more difficult than most of the base game dungeons. Depending on one's capabilities as a player and the group one ends up with, DLC dungeons are a significant challenge even on normal. When most people have limited time to invest in recreational activities, having to deal with these longer, more difficult dungeons can be an issue. Some are simply not interested in running them most of the time, or perhaps even at all.

I agree with the limited time sentiment and I do want to do all the dungeons but I'd like to get the same reward for a dungeon I specifically picked rather than a random one because I cannot remember all the mechanics for 30+ dungeons and running a dungeon for 1 crystal doesn't seem worthwhile. Getting 10 crystals from a specific dungeon makes it a worthwhile time investment and then I can look up the mechanics beforehand and have some clue what I'm getting into.

TheImperfect wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who find dlc dungeons too hard and long, have you thought about why that is? Maybe its because you have been avoiding them and only like to do FG1 and bail if anything else pops. Maybe if you tried to improve and learn the mechs you wouldn't find dlc ones hard anymore?

The assumptions here are interesting.

There's little doubt that the design of the DLC dungeons is more difficult than most of the base game dungeons. Depending on one's capabilities as a player and the group one ends up with, DLC dungeons are a significant challenge even on normal. When most people have limited time to invest in recreational activities, having to deal with these longer, more difficult dungeons can be an issue. Some are simply not interested in running them most of the time, or perhaps even at all.

I agree with the limited time sentiment and I do want to do all the dungeons but I'd like to get the same reward for a dungeon I specifically picked rather than a random one because I cannot remember all the mechanics for 30+ dungeons and running a dungeon for 1 crystal doesn't seem worthwhile. Getting 10 crystals from a specific dungeon makes it a worthwhile time investment and then I can look up the mechanics beforehand and have some clue what I'm getting into.

Allowing you to do that screws over people who need a dungeon because most people will opt for the easiest and quickest dungeon while farming. The crystals are intended to be a payment for helping those players out who need players help with a particular dungeon.

The entire point of the crystals is to reward people for helping others out with stuff they need that you're able to do. So allowing people to pick and choose which dungeon they get so they can maximize their farming defeats the purpose of the finder.

Flamebait wrote: »

So why am I supposed to help that player? I am spending my time for my purpose not yours. Honestly the other players mean less than the NPC's in a dungeon usually since the total of communications normally equals something like this.
Person 1: Hi
Person 2 : Hello
10 minutes of silence
Person 4: GG disband

There is absolutely no incentive or reason to care about other people in a random group, if you want to farm something from a dungeon ask your friends list or your guild don't expect a group of people all there for separate reasons to waste anywhere between 20-200 minutes of their time to help a random stranger they will never see again most likely. And no there is absolutely no way that the dungeon finder assign's people to it other than level. Once you hit level 45 0 CP you can be thrown into Unhallowed grave or LoM or any other random if you have ESO+ or have bought the relevant content. Wouldn't it be really funny to have all the people who go on about how easy and quick DLC's are doing them with a bunch of people all under 160 CP. Should make a really quick run with a group that doesn't know what they are doing, no way or desire to really communicate with each other and not even the real minimum to accomplish the dungeon in a reasonable time.

Another thing is that if you can solo the dungeon so easily, as several people here have said then why bother with queueing for it to begin with, farm it on your own and leave the rest of the players alone.

It's not that hard to do a normal DLC with a random bunch of sub-160CPs. Been there, done that. It wasn't "really funny", it was just running a dungeon and didn't take that much longer than with a group of higher CP people - who might also not know what they're doing, or have no way or desire to really communicate with each other. These players were in the dungeon from the queue, that MAKES them the "real minimum" and we did complete in a reasonable time.

Because CP is absolutely not an indication of a person's skill level. It just means they've earned a specific amount of XP in their time playing.

Also you have to queue to get the daily reward. I can guarantee if the daily reward wasn't tied to group finder all these people who CAN solo a dungeon easily absolutely would. I know a lot of the time I would.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Flamebait wrote: »

So why am I supposed to help that player?

To get the rewards for helping them and to ensure the game functions well. If you don't want to help them then act like you're being punished because you didn't get the reward for helping them. You get rewarded for the things you actually do, and there should be rewards for helping others do group stuff in an MMO. Simple as that.

This is a blatantly false answer though. If I am subscribed to ESO+ then I am forced to go to something I will simply quit from so as not to bother myself, thus bothering others. However if I were to unsubscribe from ESO+ then I will lose virtually nothing other than the crafting bag, while at the same time never having to see the dungeons that are at discussion here whilst getting the exact same rewards. This is the problem being argued. The fact that getting ESO+ which helps the company by supplying subscribed customers, means that those who subscribe are likely to be made to do things they dislike, which they would not have to if the did not subscribe, while getting zero extra rewards. That is why it is being referred to as a punishment.

renne wrote: »

It's not that hard to do a normal DLC with a random bunch of sub-160CPs. Been there, done that. It wasn't "really funny", it was just running a dungeon and didn't take that much longer than with a group of higher CP people - who might also not know what they're doing, or have no way or desire to really communicate with each other. These players were in the dungeon from the queue, that MAKES them the "real minimum" and we did complete in a reasonable time.

Because CP is absolutely not an indication of a person's skill level. It just means they've earned a specific amount of XP in their time playing.

Also you have to queue to get the daily reward. I can guarantee if the daily reward wasn't tied to group finder all these people who CAN solo a dungeon easily absolutely would. I know a lot of the time I would.

Again I would like to see that proof of 4 random people, new to the game without having even 160 CP finishing LoM in a reasonable time frame, but that's another discussion. I would honestly be fine with a scaled reward that is attached to the final boss of the first dungeon of the day for that character rather than as a reward for the first random, which would reward those that can solo them quickly or those that queue for them equally, but that's not the point of this thread.

However you have basically admitted the point of this thread in your own comment, if you were not forced to do this for the reward you would not do it. If the game is built in such a way as to make the players feel they are doing something solely because they have to, not because they enjoy it or want to, then it is a flaw in the design itself.

Also on an unrelated note, a few players have said they don't care about their transmutes due to having so many in the mail system from pvp and such sources, those will all be gone soon so don't forget to use them or watch them "poof". Zenimax has said that they are returning the time limit on mails after which mails will be deleted, so all those I have 3-6k transmutes will soon have the 1k only and their mail will be emptied out. Just a heads up incase nobody paid attention.

Flamebait wrote: »

However you have basically admitted the point of this thread in your own comment, if you were not forced to do this for the reward you would not do it.

Except never anywhere did I say wouldn't queue with dungeon finder.

"I know a lot of the time I would" does not actually equal "would not use dungeon finder".

It just means that a lot of the time - because when you have little free time, sitting in a queue on an Australian timezone is a pain in the rear - I'd smash out a quick nFG1 to get the rewards and be done with it. I use dungeon finder when I can. And I queue for dungeon finder even when I have gotten the reward. Some evenings when I have the time I just run random dungeons. Using dungeon finder. I actually really enjoy pugging the majority of the time because I'm strange like that.