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Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor
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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy. This is with major brutality applied like in my first example.Edited by relentless_turnip on February 22, 2021 1:50PM0 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
What he is referring to is that it is contributing a larger proportion of the final value.relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »I think you may have misunderstood me there @relentless_turnip when I say "relatively stronger" because I'm not quite being clear, I'm not saying the Medium passive reduces the Minor Brutality, like if it were multiplicative. I'm just saying in Heavy, Minor Brutality is a larger portion of your total weapon damage than it is in Medium.
I appreciate you explaining. I'm still not quite sure what you mean.
New moon gives you 530 WD. In 7 heavy with minor and major brutality this is worth 689.
With the same buffs in medium it is worth 763. Medium will always grant you more WD if the base WD is the same.
I think heavy is stronger because you don't lose a lot of weapon damage compared to how much defence you gain.
In both cases above minor brutality is adding 53 weapon damage.
But in the case of heavy this is 53/689 = 7.7%
In the case of medium it’s 53/763 = 6.9%
Ie: in heavy minor brutality is having a larger relative effect on the end result. The relative (not absolute) gain is higher, even though the total is less.
It’s just a different way of looking at it to yours.
As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.
As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.
Thank you for your explanation @ExistingRug61
I understand what he's trying to say now.
That said minor brutality isn't granting the same.
As new moon in medium is actually giving you 604.2 not the flat 530 that heavy gets. So minor brutality in medium is 60.4 and in heavy 53.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
@relentless_turniprelentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
What he is referring to is that it is contributing a larger proportion of the final value.relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »I think you may have misunderstood me there @relentless_turnip when I say "relatively stronger" because I'm not quite being clear, I'm not saying the Medium passive reduces the Minor Brutality, like if it were multiplicative. I'm just saying in Heavy, Minor Brutality is a larger portion of your total weapon damage than it is in Medium.
I appreciate you explaining. I'm still not quite sure what you mean.
New moon gives you 530 WD. In 7 heavy with minor and major brutality this is worth 689.
With the same buffs in medium it is worth 763. Medium will always grant you more WD if the base WD is the same.
I think heavy is stronger because you don't lose a lot of weapon damage compared to how much defence you gain.
In both cases above minor brutality is adding 53 weapon damage.
But in the case of heavy this is 53/689 = 7.7%
In the case of medium it’s 53/763 = 6.9%
Ie: in heavy minor brutality is having a larger relative effect on the end result. The relative (not absolute) gain is higher, even though the total is less.
It’s just a different way of looking at it to yours.
As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.
As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.
Thank you for your explanation @ExistingRug61
I understand what he's trying to say now.
That said minor brutality isn't granting the same.
As new moon in medium is actually giving you 604.2 not the flat 530 that heavy gets. So minor brutality in medium is 60.4 and in heavy 53.
Minor (and major) brutality is additive with the bonus from medium, so they both apply their percentage to the base 530.
So regardless of number of medium pieces, it’s adding 53.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 22, 2021 1:52PM0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
Now for a more complex example, lets say you are running 5 piece hundings rage and 4 piece witch-knight (300 wd from hundings and 129*3 wd from WK, total 687 wd added to make a 1687 base wd)
Medium armor will get a total wd from the previous example of 2109 (1687 * [1+.1+.15] = 2108.75 = 2109]
Heavy armor will get 1856 wd (really 1855.7)Edited by JobooAGS on February 22, 2021 1:56PM0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't see why it's controversial that the original "tank" class has a number of long-standing, fundamental elements that make it synergize better with heavy armor, so that a nerf to any role in heavy armor is an inequitable nerf to DK.
Other than that Wood Orc logic is conducted with a scattered mess of sticks and bones in an ash pit, so my apologies if it was confusing, thank you for helping to explain @ExistingRug61 .Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
@relentless_turniprelentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
What he is referring to is that it is contributing a larger proportion of the final value.relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »I think you may have misunderstood me there @relentless_turnip when I say "relatively stronger" because I'm not quite being clear, I'm not saying the Medium passive reduces the Minor Brutality, like if it were multiplicative. I'm just saying in Heavy, Minor Brutality is a larger portion of your total weapon damage than it is in Medium.
I appreciate you explaining. I'm still not quite sure what you mean.
New moon gives you 530 WD. In 7 heavy with minor and major brutality this is worth 689.
With the same buffs in medium it is worth 763. Medium will always grant you more WD if the base WD is the same.
I think heavy is stronger because you don't lose a lot of weapon damage compared to how much defence you gain.
In both cases above minor brutality is adding 53 weapon damage.
But in the case of heavy this is 53/689 = 7.7%
In the case of medium it’s 53/763 = 6.9%
Ie: in heavy minor brutality is having a larger relative effect on the end result. The relative (not absolute) gain is higher, even though the total is less.
It’s just a different way of looking at it to yours.
As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.
As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.
Thank you for your explanation @ExistingRug61
I understand what he's trying to say now.
That said minor brutality isn't granting the same.
As new moon in medium is actually giving you 604.2 not the flat 530 that heavy gets. So minor brutality in medium is 60.4 and in heavy 53.
Minor (and major) brutality is additive with the bonus from medium, so they both apply their percentage to the base 530.
So regardless of number of medium pieces, it’s adding 53.
@ExistingRug61
I know, but the medium passive is always active there for the base amount is always 604 and not 530. I'm not debating the value of 10% of 530. I agree with you that minor brutality isolated grants the same in both cases. The debate is whether you gain more from minor brutality in heavy, which however you look at it you don't.
I hope you don't mind the discussion btw, I quite enjoy the maths in this game 😂0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂
Now from the original example, lets tack on major brutality too (20%)
1000 wd for heavy armor becomes 1300 wd (1000 * [1 + .1 + .2])
For medium it becomes 1450 (1000 * [1 + .1 + .2]
In my more complex example with 4x WH AND 5x hundings this becomes
2193 and 2446 for heavy and medium respectively.Edited by JobooAGS on February 22, 2021 2:24PM1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
But they do. All percentage modifiers for damage are additive and act on the base value (from sets, weapons etc). There is no higher base for medium, it just provides and extra additive bonus based on the original base.relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂
ie: New moon adds 530
In 7 medium, this becomes
530*(1 + 0.14) = 604.2
In 7 medium plus minor brutality, it is
530*(1 + 0.14 + 0.1) = 657.2
[Not
(530*(1 + 0.14))*(1 + 0.1) = 664.62
Which is what you are suggesting]
Or no medium and just minor brutality
530*(1 + 0.1) = 583
Regardless of the amount of medium, minor brutality is adding 53 (10% of the base value, not the base modified by medium)
Ie from the above, with no medium the difference from minor brutality is 583-530=53
With medium, the difference is 657.2-604.2=53
The amount gained from minor brutality is independent of medium or heavy, and purely depends on the original base damage.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 22, 2021 2:11PM0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »
But they do. All percentage modifiers for damage are additive and act on the base value (from sets, weapons etc). There is no higher base for medium, it just provides and extra additive bonus based on the original base.relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂
ie: New moon adds 530
In 7 medium, this becomes
530*(1 + 0.14) = 604.2
In 7 medium plus minor brutality, it is
530*(1 + 0.14 + 0.1) = 657.2
[Not
(530*(1 + 0.14))*(1 + 0.1) = 664.62
Which is what you are suggesting]
Or no medium and just minor brutality
530*(1 + 0.1) = 583
Regardless of the amount of medium, minor brutality is adding 53 (10% of the base value, not the base modified by medium)
I totally agree with you, your maths matches mine completely. All I'm saying is that medium isn't applied it is always present there for +14% should be considered the base. I suppose this is subjective though 👍0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.
As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.
True, but for another input to this general consideration, what were the highest weapon damage non-crafted 5 piece sets for years? Seventh, Fury, Truth, and Ravager, all heavy. What was the highest Crit Chance non-crafted 5 piece set for years? AY, heavy. Am I right about that? This idea that Heavy isn't for dealing damage isn't coherent in ESO or TES history, really. Of course Heavy doing less damage isn't the same as Heavy doing no damage - but some of the recommendations for reductions to damage in Heavy also note "let tanks be tanks" - except on that note, Harbinger's seems to be less than adored here, despite giving tanks the ability to tank much more than Vanguard's Challenge ever has, in that Harbinger tanks exercise some control over the battlefield without being outright responsible for the final outcome.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.
As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.
True, but for another input to this general consideration, what were the highest weapon damage non-crafted 5 piece sets for years? Seventh, Fury, Truth, and Ravager, all heavy. What was the highest Crit Chance non-crafted 5 piece set for years? AY, heavy. Am I right about that? This idea that Heavy isn't for dealing damage isn't coherent in ESO or TES history, really. Of course Heavy doing less damage isn't the same as Heavy doing no damage - but some of the recommendations for reductions to damage in Heavy also note "let tanks be tanks" - except on that note, Harbinger's seems to be less than adored here, despite giving tanks the ability to tank much more than Vanguard's Challenge ever has, in that Harbinger tanks exercise some control over the battlefield without being outright responsible for the final outcome.
Well AY being heavy is circumvented by the fact that people use weapons and jewels. Plus noone wears AY using body pieces unless they absolutely have to.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
But they do. All percentage modifiers for damage are additive and act on the base value (from sets, weapons etc). There is no higher base for medium, it just provides and extra additive bonus based on the original base.relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂
ie: New moon adds 530
In 7 medium, this becomes
530*(1 + 0.14) = 604.2
In 7 medium plus minor brutality, it is
530*(1 + 0.14 + 0.1) = 657.2
[Not
(530*(1 + 0.14))*(1 + 0.1) = 664.62
Which is what you are suggesting]
Or no medium and just minor brutality
530*(1 + 0.1) = 583
Regardless of the amount of medium, minor brutality is adding 53 (10% of the base value, not the base modified by medium)
I totally agree with you, your maths matches mine completely. All I'm saying is that medium isn't applied it is always present there for +14% should be considered the base. I suppose this is subjective though 👍
Mathematically the way the game considers it the bonus from medium is not considered base.
So this:
And thisIn the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
are objectively false.I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher.
As minor brutality does not act on a “higher base” that includes the medium armour bonus. It always acts on the original base.
In seven medium, new moon provides 530*1.14=604.2 weapon damage.
If you then add minor brutality it does NOT add 10% of 604.2 = 60.42 to give 664.42.
Rather it still only adds 10% of the original, unmodified, 530, being 53, to result in 657.2.
That’s what I was trying to clarify.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 22, 2021 2:23PM1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.
As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.
True, but for another input to this general consideration, what were the highest weapon damage non-crafted 5 piece sets for years? Seventh, Fury, Truth, and Ravager, all heavy. What was the highest Crit Chance non-crafted 5 piece set for years? AY, heavy. Am I right about that? This idea that Heavy isn't for dealing damage isn't coherent in ESO or TES history, really. Of course Heavy doing less damage isn't the same as Heavy doing no damage - but some of the recommendations for reductions to damage in Heavy also note "let tanks be tanks" - except on that note, Harbinger's seems to be less than adored here, despite giving tanks the ability to tank much more than Vanguard's Challenge ever has, in that Harbinger tanks exercise some control over the battlefield without being outright responsible for the final outcome.
I agree some of the best sets are heavy, which doesn't make much sense. I wouldn't say their "vision" has been particularly consistent though. My thoughts on heavy are only motivated by these proposed changes and after testing them. Currently it is worse for tanking and better in PvP from what I've seen and tested(I don't do PVE).
Keeping the theme of realism to the armor types I would suggest heavy should do less damage, but offer more mitigation.Edited by relentless_turnip on February 22, 2021 2:25PM1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.
As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.
True, but for another input to this general consideration, what were the highest weapon damage non-crafted 5 piece sets for years? Seventh, Fury, Truth, and Ravager, all heavy. What was the highest Crit Chance non-crafted 5 piece set for years? AY, heavy. Am I right about that? This idea that Heavy isn't for dealing damage isn't coherent in ESO or TES history, really. Of course Heavy doing less damage isn't the same as Heavy doing no damage - but some of the recommendations for reductions to damage in Heavy also note "let tanks be tanks" - except on that note, Harbinger's seems to be less than adored here, despite giving tanks the ability to tank much more than Vanguard's Challenge ever has, in that Harbinger tanks exercise some control over the battlefield without being outright responsible for the final outcome.
Yeah that true, I was simply pointing out that in isolation (not considering available sets) the argument could be applied in reverse to crit and that stamdk also has something to synergises with for medium, but as you rightly identify there are many heavy sets that give weapon damage, and with this considered as well I agree it becomes apparent that stamdk leans more toward this idea of damage in heavy than other classes.
I wasn’t trying to comment on whether tanks should or shouldn’t be able to deal damage. Again as you point out, the existence of heavy damage sets seems to imply this is/was a promoted option.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 22, 2021 2:34PM0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well AY being heavy is circumvented by the fact that people use weapons and jewels. Plus noone wears AY using body pieces unless they absolutely have to.
Right but was that intentional? Why isn't it some defensive set if Heavy was intended to be strictly for defense? (edited, I meant defense here)relentless_turnip wrote: »I agree some of the best sets are heavy, which doesn't make much sense. I wouldn't say their "vision" has been particularly consistent though. My thoughts on heavy are only motivated by these proposed changes and after testing them. Currently it is worse for tanking and better in PvP from what I've seen and tested(I don't do PVE).
Keeping the theme of realism to the armor types I would suggest heavy should do less damage, but offer more mitigation.
Yes, all understood. I'm only engaging with you to provide a long-term view of the relevance of one particular class - StamDK. It's origins are the tank class, it mostly has a tanking kit. Roll-dodging around until Leap is ready is fun and all, but there's much more that can be done with the class kit besides either a Leap or Talons-and-Chains centric playstyle.
To be clear I think you're on to something, I trust your experience on PTS, and it comes as no surprise because I see most players around 35k health on console as it is. Thing is, a whole lot of StamDK have always been at 35k Health in Cyro. I don't know we deserve to be especially nerfed, which I think is what your proposed change might do.
Edited by Urzigurumash on February 22, 2021 2:43PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
QuinnTheWolf✭✭✭seen many people on live and now here too, saying that heavy armor should make the magic and martial attacks deal reduced damage
i completely argree!
dear zos: stop ruining the game for pve players, make it so with heavy armor you deal reduced damage to targets
pve should not be this affected by pvp, think logicaly, that means pulling your heads out of the sand and actualy making logical descisions
because what we have now? pvp ruined pve once again..... thats all i can say.... as much as i wana curse and scream out all the anger, no that wouldnt be smartEdited by QuinnTheWolf on February 22, 2021 2:39PM0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
But they do. All percentage modifiers for damage are additive and act on the base value (from sets, weapons etc). There is no higher base for medium, it just provides and extra additive bonus based on the original base.relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂
ie: New moon adds 530
In 7 medium, this becomes
530*(1 + 0.14) = 604.2
In 7 medium plus minor brutality, it is
530*(1 + 0.14 + 0.1) = 657.2
[Not
(530*(1 + 0.14))*(1 + 0.1) = 664.62
Which is what you are suggesting]
Or no medium and just minor brutality
530*(1 + 0.1) = 583
Regardless of the amount of medium, minor brutality is adding 53 (10% of the base value, not the base modified by medium)
I totally agree with you, your maths matches mine completely. All I'm saying is that medium isn't applied it is always present there for +14% should be considered the base. I suppose this is subjective though 👍
Mathematically the way the game considers it the bonus from medium is not considered base.
So this:
And thisIn the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
are objectively false.I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher.
As minor brutality does not act on a “higher base” that includes the medium armour bonus. It always acts on the original base.
In seven medium, new moon provides 530*1.14=604.2 weapon damage.
If you then add minor brutality it does NOT add 10% of 604.2 = 60.42 to give 664.42.
Rather it still only adds 10% of the original, unmodified, 530, being 53, to result in 657.2.
That’s what I was trying to clarify.
As I've said whether it is considered base or not is totally subjective. As you are talking about the value you get from a 5 piece bonus in medium or heavy. The medium passive is applied when the armor is equipped and as such I would objectively have to say it should be considered base.
As I have said I agree with your maths and 10% of 530 is always 53.
I understand what you're saying and agree with you. You can't discount the 14% medium imo though, other wise there is no debate at all.
Unless we have a nonsensical discussion where one of us tries to argue that 10% of the same number wouldn't equate to the same. Which is definitely not what I am debating😂0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
But they do. All percentage modifiers for damage are additive and act on the base value (from sets, weapons etc). There is no higher base for medium, it just provides and extra additive bonus based on the original base.relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂
ie: New moon adds 530
In 7 medium, this becomes
530*(1 + 0.14) = 604.2
In 7 medium plus minor brutality, it is
530*(1 + 0.14 + 0.1) = 657.2
[Not
(530*(1 + 0.14))*(1 + 0.1) = 664.62
Which is what you are suggesting]
Or no medium and just minor brutality
530*(1 + 0.1) = 583
Regardless of the amount of medium, minor brutality is adding 53 (10% of the base value, not the base modified by medium)
I totally agree with you, your maths matches mine completely. All I'm saying is that medium isn't applied it is always present there for +14% should be considered the base. I suppose this is subjective though 👍
Mathematically the way the game considers it the bonus from medium is not considered base.
So this:
And thisIn the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
are objectively false.I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher.
As minor brutality does not act on a “higher base” that includes the medium armour bonus. It always acts on the original base.
In seven medium, new moon provides 530*1.14=604.2 weapon damage.
If you then add minor brutality it does NOT add 10% of 604.2 = 60.42 to give 664.42.
Rather it still only adds 10% of the original, unmodified, 530, being 53, to result in 657.2.
That’s what I was trying to clarify.
As I've said whether it is considered base or not is totally subjective. As you are talking about the value you get from a 5 piece bonus in medium or heavy. The medium passive is applied when the armor is equipped and as such I would objectively have to say it should be considered base.
As I have said I agree with your maths and 10% of 530 is always 53.
I understand what you're saying and agree with you. You can't discount the 14% medium imo though, other wise there is no debate at all.
Unless we have a nonsensical discussion where one of us tries to argue that 10% of the same number wouldn't equate to the same. Which is definitely not what I am debating😂
No it’s not that. Sure, what we consider base can be considered subjective.
But the value that minor brutality applies to is not subjective.
In this statement you make:relentless_turnip wrote: »That said minor brutality isn't granting the same.
As new moon in medium is actually giving you 604.2 not the flat 530 that heavy gets. So minor brutality in medium is 60.4 and in heavy 53.
That last bit about the 60.4 in medium and only 53 in heavy is objectively wrong.
This statememt implies that you believe that minor brutality’s bonus is applying to the weapon damage AFTER or including the bonus from medium. Which it does not, even though the medium passive is on all the time once you equip the armour.
Yes if you are wearing 7 medium new moon results in 604.2 weapon damage. But if you then apply minor brutality you do not get +60.42 weapon damage like you have stated above. You get +53.
It is a subtle difference, but an important one (difference between additive and multiplicative multipliers).
Yes we definitely agree that 10% of 530 is 53
But it appears in you analysis there is a point where you are applying the 10% to 604.2, when you should still be applying it to 530. Thats what I am trying to correct.
I know I am harping in about this a bit, but there is an important distinction here, one that isn’t just a matter of perspective or subjectivity. And as such I think it important to clarify and be understood.
Especially given as a forum reader I am aware that you often propose lots of ideas for discussion, which is a great thing (even if I personally sometimes have differing views) and I hope that us all increasing our understanding of these detailed game mechanics leads to better and more refined ideas.Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 22, 2021 3:06PM0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »ExistingRug61 wrote: »
But they do. All percentage modifiers for damage are additive and act on the base value (from sets, weapons etc). There is no higher base for medium, it just provides and extra additive bonus based on the original base.relentless_turnip wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »It's simply not true, let it go.
Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.
In the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
All wd multipliers are additive. Meaning that for the same base wd (where all the multipliers multiply from) medium armor and heavy armor benefit from the same value. For example if you have 1000 base wd and you only have minor brutality active and we are assuming that we are talking about live medium armor so we dont have to worry about the number if medium armor we are wearing, the heavy user will have 1100 wd and the medium user will have 1250 wd. (1000 * [1+.1 minor brutality + .15 medium armor])
I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher. It is always applied if you are wearing medium. I think we are in agreement, but I am just trying to clarify 😂
ie: New moon adds 530
In 7 medium, this becomes
530*(1 + 0.14) = 604.2
In 7 medium plus minor brutality, it is
530*(1 + 0.14 + 0.1) = 657.2
[Not
(530*(1 + 0.14))*(1 + 0.1) = 664.62
Which is what you are suggesting]
Or no medium and just minor brutality
530*(1 + 0.1) = 583
Regardless of the amount of medium, minor brutality is adding 53 (10% of the base value, not the base modified by medium)
I totally agree with you, your maths matches mine completely. All I'm saying is that medium isn't applied it is always present there for +14% should be considered the base. I suppose this is subjective though 👍
Mathematically the way the game considers it the bonus from medium is not considered base.
So this:
And thisIn the new moon example I just gave minor brutality gives you 71.02 WD in medium and 63.06 wd in heavy.
are objectively false.I understand what your saying, but they don't benefit from the same value as mediums base is always higher.
As minor brutality does not act on a “higher base” that includes the medium armour bonus. It always acts on the original base.
In seven medium, new moon provides 530*1.14=604.2 weapon damage.
If you then add minor brutality it does NOT add 10% of 604.2 = 60.42 to give 664.42.
Rather it still only adds 10% of the original, unmodified, 530, being 53, to result in 657.2.
That’s what I was trying to clarify.
As I've said whether it is considered base or not is totally subjective. As you are talking about the value you get from a 5 piece bonus in medium or heavy. The medium passive is applied when the armor is equipped and as such I would objectively have to say it should be considered base.
As I have said I agree with your maths and 10% of 530 is always 53.
I understand what you're saying and agree with you. You can't discount the 14% medium imo though, other wise there is no debate at all.
Unless we have a nonsensical discussion where one of us tries to argue that 10% of the same number wouldn't equate to the same. Which is definitely not what I am debating😂
No it’s not that. Sure, what we consider base can be considered subjective.
But the value that minor brutality applies to is not subjective.
In this statement you make:relentless_turnip wrote: »That said minor brutality isn't granting the same.
As new moon in medium is actually giving you 604.2 not the flat 530 that heavy gets. So minor brutality in medium is 60.4 and in heavy 53.
That last bit about the 60.4 in medium and only 53 in heavy is objectively wrong.
This statememt implies that you believe that minor brutality’s bonus is applying to the weapon damage AFTER or including the bonus from medium. Which it does not, even though the medium passive is on all the time once you equip the armour.
Yes if you are wearing 7 medium new moon results in 604.2 weapon damage. But if you then apply minor brutality you do not get +60.42 weapon damage like you have stated above. You get +53.
It is a subtle difference, but an important one (difference between additive and multiplicative multipliers).
Yes we definitely agree that 10% of 530 is 53
But it appears in you analysis there is a point where you are applying the 10% to 604.2, when you should still be applying it to 530. Thats what I am trying to correct.
I know I am harping in about this a bit, but there is an important distinction here, one that isn’t just a matter of perspective or subjectivity. And as such I think it important to clarify and be understood.
Especially given as a forum reader I am aware that you often propose lots of ideas for discussion, which is a great thing (even if I personally sometimes have differing views) and I hope that us all increasing our understanding of these detailed game mechanics leads to better and more refined ideas.
Apologies @ExistingRug61
I do understand what you mean now😂
Minor brutality isn't 10% of the value with medium passive applied, but of the original value. In medium the individual values of the 530 WD is:
Minor brutality 10% = 53
Medium passive 14% = 74.2
The total is equated additively like:
530+53+74.2 = 657.2
You can apply the total percentage in one go(530*1.24) or add the percentages together as I did above.
To the original debate you do not get more from minor brutality in heavy, you get the same. In medium you do get additional 14%.
I believe understanding the mechanics is also important and enjoy understanding (or attempting to). You are encouraging this is and that is a good thing.
I do propose and initiate a lot of discussions some regrettable 😂 I don't ever feel any animosity to anyone that disagrees with me(provided they aren't an ass hat) Retrospectively I often disagree with myself😂 I can respect any opinion that is born of logic👍Edited by relentless_turnip on February 22, 2021 3:45PM1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »To the original debate you do not get more from minor brutality in heavy, you get the same. In medium you do get additional 14%.
You get a larger ratio of total damage out of Minor Brutality in Heavy than you do in medium.
Yes the logic can be extended to other percentile buffs, but Minor Brutality is innate to StamDK, and look at the sources of nominal Weapon Damage, look at which Mundus provides this and then look at a sketch of that Mundus.
Edited by Urzigurumash on February 22, 2021 3:58PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Heavy armor is meta since dark brotherhood lol. Would be nice to not see heavy armor being meta for once, the game was in a much healthier spot before heavy armor got buffed into heaven. People actually died instead of yoloing around on unkillable facetank stam builds (which are allowed to have a ton of damage as well because why not).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GQuinnTheWolf wrote: »seen many people on live and now here too, saying that heavy armor should make the magic and martial attacks deal reduced damage
i completely argree!
dear zos: stop ruining the game for pve players, make it so with heavy armor you deal reduced damage to targets
pve should not be this affected by pvp, think logicaly, that means pulling your heads out of the sand and actualy making logical descisions
because what we have now? pvp ruined pve once again..... thats all i can say.... as much as i wana curse and scream out all the anger, no that wouldnt be smart
How is making heavy armor do reduced damage not making life much worse for pve players? Will increasing the lack of tanks be a good thing for pve?4 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Boy what have I started xD..
Quick note on dk getting more out of medium armor crit passive: Crit chance is not a multiplier in on itself, it's flat rating that gets converted to a %, and it has no base value to multiply like wpd buffs do.
I do think dk lends itself towards heavy armor btw, it's an attrotion class at base with dots and defensive passives that provide passive mitigation, healing etc.
It also has little in the way of mobility like a nightblade or sorc would.
0 -
Ace_SiN✭✭✭✭Heavy will be fine I'm sure. My only issue is I see this community continue to think heavy armor makes you a tank. In ESO, it doesn't. Odds are you're being LOSed because even sitting above 30k resist won't save you from the high damage in this game. Real tanks can't kill anyone in a decent build with a good handle on mechanics. These players I recommend ignoring (or double-check that your build can actually damage non-noob payers in a controlled duel against a friend). There's also no need for -% damage penalties when it inherently does less damage than Light Armor and Medium Armor. Heavy is going to have some uptime issues with this patch which will also affect damage output, although indirectly, against the more mobile builds out there.King of Beasts4 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Heavy armor is meta since dark brotherhood lol. Would be nice to not see heavy armor being meta for once, the game was in a much healthier spot before heavy armor got buffed into heaven. People actually died instead of yoloing around on unkillable facetank stam builds (which are allowed to have a ton of damage as well because why not).
Weren't these buffs at Dark Brotherhood either entirely reverted (Wrath) or cut in half (Constitution) by Morrowind and Clockwork City?
At least in my experience on my platform, Heavy's the meta for Sieging and Objective modes, Medium's the meta for dueling and Death Match, all the rest is somewhere in between. Part of what you describe in the change of players has to do with more players' skill increasing over time, don't you think?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Halcyon_Kismet wrote: »It feels like this is major tunnel vision balancing Heavy Armor based off of PVP.
As many have suggested, reducing damage in place of one (or multiple...) of the negative effects would much better achieve the desired results without hurting PVE.
What I truly fear is going to happen is the consequences of this going live on your PVE community. PVE tanking is already a lackluster job and your making it even more unappealing. Most don't follow the PTS and I feel this is going to blindside a ton of PVE players, especially the middle to less experienced players. A lot of these players already struggle with the harder dlc dungeons and trials. These changes are only going to move your problem from PVP to PVE. (Or just create an extra problem cause apparently it isn't solving the problem anyways.)
TLDR : Do like everybody has said, nerf the damage instead of tanks ability to tank otherwise your going to hurt your average and low skill player base, which is likely the majority of players.
Few people will want to be a tank in pve if they can’t get stuff done outside of a dungeon or trial.
Why play a tank when They can burn things down way faster if they stick with pure dps?
The answer to this is clear: you make a tank for instant dungeon queues and easier assembly of PvE guild runs.
If you're questing or overland farming in Heavy Armor you're already doing it wrong.
Make a DPS and Healer in addition to your tank. You'll be even more useful to your guild since you can now slot into any role and you will always have a solid character to quest and farm overland with (your DPS).
I´m sorry I don´t get this or am I getting this wrong ? I believe you run a tank so I have to ask if it´s only my tank, who need skillpoints and not your`s. I have all roles dd, tank and healer and three of each.
Maybe I got this all wrong. I must have or is it possible to tranfere skillpoints to let´s say a healer to a tank in new patch.
Another possibility is that you run one race on all three roles and swap gear and skills.?
This is not to ypu, but whish to put it out there to save time.
I don´t get the changes to the tank role at all. How can a tank be "god" and at the same time useless or really hard to use or even hard to fullfill it´s tasks.
Can any answer, what´s going on. What´s the tanks role if these changes go live ?1 -
ScolopendraSoul ShrivenOne of my biggest gripes is the glaring contradictions that arise with the "you can play whatever character you want for any content" statements and their consistent pattern of making it borderline impossible or just plain miserable for some characters to play certain types of content. For this though, I will just point out a few bits of content that are now functionally barred for heavy armor players:
1. Dark Brotherhood quests (particularly sacraments) are now nigh impossible to do without either trying them naked or spending a bunch of time and money to respect your character away from a tanking build temporarily. Sacraments are already buggy nightmares to begin with, but the hugely increased heavy armor detection range makes it impossible to escape detection.
2. Thieves Guild quests are now just laughably problematic for the same reasons, but now you get to throw patrolling, unkillable city guards into the mix as well.
3. Literally any quest that requires you to follow someone from a distance in stealth will be hit hard with this and may be impossible to complete. For example, the quest to follow a traitor/spy through Ebonheart. That quest likes to fail out if you are not within a certain precise distance range with the NPC, saying that you failed to follow him if you are too distant or he detects you and bolts if you are too close. As small as the radius is for quests like this, that massively increased detection range is most likely going to bug the quest out to the point you have to strip naked or respec to finish it.
So, to review, two entire DLC packs are functionally going to be barred from tanks and even overland quests are going to be heavily impaired because of these changes. So, which is it ZOS? Are we really allowed to play any content we want with any kind of character? Because right now, it really doesn't feel that way.4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Scolopendra wrote: »One of my biggest gripes is the glaring contradictions that arise with the "you can play whatever character you want for any content" statements and their consistent pattern of making it borderline impossible or just plain miserable for some characters to play certain types of content. For this though, I will just point out a few bits of content that are now functionally barred for heavy armor players:
1. Dark Brotherhood quests (particularly sacraments) are now nigh impossible to do without either trying them naked or spending a bunch of time and money to respect your character away from a tanking build temporarily. Sacraments are already buggy nightmares to begin with, but the hugely increased heavy armor detection range makes it impossible to escape detection.
2. Thieves Guild quests are now just laughably problematic for the same reasons, but now you get to throw patrolling, unkillable city guards into the mix as well.
3. Literally any quest that requires you to follow someone from a distance in stealth will be hit hard with this and may be impossible to complete. For example, the quest to follow a traitor/spy through Ebonheart. That quest likes to fail out if you are not within a certain precise distance range with the NPC, saying that you failed to follow him if you are too distant or he detects you and bolts if you are too close. As small as the radius is for quests like this, that massively increased detection range is most likely going to bug the quest out to the point you have to strip naked or respec to finish it.
So, to review, two entire DLC packs are functionally going to be barred from tanks and even overland quests are going to be heavily impaired because of these changes. So, which is it ZOS? Are we really allowed to play any content we want with any kind of character? Because right now, it really doesn't feel that way.
Wow! I did not realize those follow quests were effected by stealth radius. That is crazy.0