Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor

Urzigurumash · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@Merforum I would just add that heavy on the PTS for PvP is already the most dominant of the 3 weights. Your suggestions lean closer to further buffing it for this environment.

I think light and medium should get a slight damage buff and heavy get a substantial damage debuff per piece like 3-4%. By all means heavy can have 2% mitigation per piece from physical and magical, but it shouldn't gain mitigation to both without a damage debuff imo.

I'd say you were half right there, but I still don't think reducing any damage is a good solution to the tank meta. What about just encouraging people to build for more damage and less tankiness altogether, rather than encouraging Heavy DD players to either go with a defensive medium spec or full health tank? Of course as it is on live console, Medium needs some buffs for Brawler builds, but Heavy armor is just one means of defense. I'm looking at Medium Syvarra's and Unleashed tooltips and I don't see anywhere that it prohibits me from putting 64 points in health, drinking Armor pots, and slotting Temporal Guard for the Protection passive. Things not many of us who have favored 64 points in Stam Heavy builds for the last 6 years have been doing.

One season, offensive stats scaled heals are the problem, the next it's HP scaled heals. Either way, it was heals, not damage, that were the problem, don't you think?

Edit: Of course (unique buff) Armor pots and Temporal Guard weren't an option for the last 6 years, and neither were Sugar Skulls. Many people in Light and Medium are eating Sugar Skulls right now, I don't see that nerfing Heavy Armor's damage output changes that.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

What I'm getting at is I don't see why the sort of stats-proc-based, high weapon damage Heavy builds many of us have played on StamDK over the years, and which adapt well to StamDen and StamCro, should have a nerf to damage output. I haven't even bothered to use Unleashed or Syvarra's yet, but I have tried some other Medium proc sets and I think I did a million damage in a BG by roll-dodging. So it's not all on Heavy.

honey_badger82 · February 2021

Heavy armor already has a damage penalty as several here have stated. That penalty is simply they get 0 bonuses to any form of damage boost.

Medium gets +2% physical dmg per piece and light gets critical + pen per piece which in turn = increased damage done.

End of discussion on giving heavy armor an additional damage penalty unless it is done through battle spirit ONLY FOR PVP! Even then coming from a non PVP player I still think that's petty and lame. I mean why do you PVP? The whole point is fight an intelligent opponent. You know what they are doing, figure out a counter.

Other than that if you cant beat em join em. Imagine a whole zerg of blocking, bouncing up and down ***ots trying to proc each other to death yet to one is actually attacking. They will find another way then. ZoS can nerf heavy into the ground and the cheese players will just find another cheese. Before this it was WW spamming howl and claws of life endlessly.

Merforum · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@Merforum I would just add that heavy on the PTS for PvP is already the most dominant of the 3 weights. Your suggestions lean closer to further buffing it for this environment.

I think light and medium should get a slight damage buff and heavy get a substantial damage debuff per piece like 3-4%. By all means heavy can have 2% mitigation per piece from physical and magical, but it shouldn't gain mitigation to both without a damage debuff imo.

I'd say you were half right there, but I still don't think reducing any damage is a good solution to the tank meta. What about just encouraging people to build for more damage and less tankiness altogether, rather than encouraging Heavy DD players to either go with a defensive medium spec or full health tank? Of course as it is on live console, Medium needs some buffs for Brawler builds, but Heavy armor is just one means of defense. I'm looking at Medium Syvarra's and Unleashed tooltips and I don't see anywhere that it prohibits me from putting 64 points in health, drinking Armor pots, and slotting Temporal Guard for the Protection passive. Things not many of us who have favored 64 points in Stam Heavy builds for the last 6 years have been doing.

One season, offensive stats scaled heals are the problem, the next it's HP scaled heals. Either way, it was heals, not damage, that were the problem, don't you think?

Edit: Of course (unique buff) Armor pots and Temporal Guard weren't an option for the last 6 years, and neither were Sugar Skulls. Many people in Light and Medium are eating Sugar Skulls right now, I don't see that nerfing Heavy Armor's damage output changes that.

Yes I agree with you and I am definitely not calling for any more nerfs to heavy armor or tanks or even heavy PVP. As a matter of fact the incessant complaining that every single time either anyone can survive through a cheesy combo or they can kill others without using a cheesy combo it is a national emergency and ALWAYS requires a NERF to something (and whenever ZOS appease these it has ripple affects thru the whole game), is very annoying.

You have some good points, food/drink can be toned down a lot, and potions are insanely powerful. There's probably hundreds of better ways to improve the game with adding damage nerf to heavy armor being at bottom of the list.

Merforum · February 2021

honey_badger82 wrote: »

Heavy armor already has a damage penalty as several here have stated. That penalty is simply they get 0 bonuses to any form of damage boost.

Medium gets +2% physical dmg per piece and light gets critical + pen per piece which in turn = increased damage done.

End of discussion on giving heavy armor an additional damage penalty unless it is done through battle spirit ONLY FOR PVP! Even then coming from a non PVP player I still think that's petty and lame. I mean why do you PVP? The whole point is fight an intelligent opponent. You know what they are doing, figure out a counter.

Other than that if you cant beat em join em. Imagine a whole zerg of blocking, bouncing up and down ***ots trying to proc each other to death yet to one is actually attacking. They will find another way then. ZoS can nerf heavy into the ground and the cheese players will just find another cheese. Before this it was WW spamming howl and claws of life endlessly.

Yes that is right there are already damage BOOSTERS on Lt/Md armor which is illogical but definitely gives more damage than heavy, great point. Want to know the funniest thing, the so called experts will use every method they can to get an advantage, which includes the exploits, proc sets, tanky builds AND convincing a bunch of dopes that these things are BAD in order to get even more advantage for anyone who believes them and doesn't use the 'bad gear/tactic'. It is actually hilarious.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

Merforum wrote: »

Yes I agree with you and I am definitely not calling for any more nerfs to heavy armor or tanks or even heavy PVP. As a matter of fact the incessant complaining that every single time either anyone can survive through a cheesy combo or they can kill others without using a cheesy combo it is a national emergency and ALWAYS requires a NERF to something (and whenever ZOS appease these it has ripple affects thru the whole game), is very annoying.

You have some good points, food/drink can be toned down a lot, and potions are insanely powerful. There's probably hundreds of better ways to improve the game with adding damage nerf to heavy armor being at bottom of the list.

Thank you. I'm not even calling for nerfs to defensive Foods and Potions, just buffs to offensive skills, more than anything. More reward for building for damage, for all classes and all playstyles.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

Heavy is already dominant in PvP my point was that they don't give up enough damage to be tanky. These changes emphasise this and make heavy armor worse for PVE. I have tested this a pretty decent amount on the PTS as a PvP player.

I would argue the suggested changes proposed in this thread are self serving and don't actually look at the larger picture.

Merforum · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Heavy is already dominant in PvP my point was that they don't give up enough damage to be tanky. These changes emphasise this and make heavy armor worse for PVE. I have tested this a pretty decent amount on the PTS as a PvP player.

I would argue the suggested changes proposed in this thread are self serving and don't actually look at the larger picture.

Actually you have the situation exactly backwards. It isn't the tankiness that is the problem it is the fact that literally everyone is using 2hand. Even hybrid is nothing but magica dude with 2 hand.

As far as lore and logic it makes perfect sense for someone like me who likes tanking in dungeons and equally likes going toe to toe in a fight in PVP instead of the *** running, sneaking, backstab, that I can wear heavy armor with snb in PVE and do all content, then use heavy with 2hnd in PVP and not only have good resistance but if I land a hit it should do maximum damage. Health = Strength and should mean MORE damage but SLOW.

Currently it is ridiculous picture this, I'm a khajit nightblade with med armor I am sneaking around the battle field I see someone who has been beaten down by a real man and is about to die, I decide to steal his kill so I sneak up on him and just before I get to him I reach behind my back and pull out a FOUR FOOT LONG, 100 lbs GREAT SWORD that I can barely carry cuz I only have 12K health and execute him with a mighty blow. RIDICULOUS.

We can end the 2hand meta and be more logical by increasing its damage, adding a delay on skills (maybe remove light attack but make medium/heavy attack stronger) and maybe making it cost more stam plus a little health, and if you really want to be accurate how about anyone with less than 20K health should NOT even be able to pick up 2hnd, and should receive massive negative for using it.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Merforum · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Yes I agree with you and I am definitely not calling for any more nerfs to heavy armor or tanks or even heavy PVP. As a matter of fact the incessant complaining that every single time either anyone can survive through a cheesy combo or they can kill others without using a cheesy combo it is a national emergency and ALWAYS requires a NERF to something (and whenever ZOS appease these it has ripple affects thru the whole game), is very annoying.

You have some good points, food/drink can be toned down a lot, and potions are insanely powerful. There's probably hundreds of better ways to improve the game with adding damage nerf to heavy armor being at bottom of the list.

Thank you. I'm not even calling for nerfs to defensive Foods and Potions, just buffs to offensive skills, more than anything. More reward for building for damage, for all classes and all playstyles.

Exactly right, I like to have many different playstyles and they all should be viable. See my other post about how absurd it is for stealth playstyle to even be able to use 2hnd, while making perfect sense for heavy armor + 2 hnd to have high resist + high damage but be very slow moving and attacking as a drawback. Consistent with lore and logic.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

Merforum wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Heavy is already dominant in PvP my point was that they don't give up enough damage to be tanky. These changes emphasise this and make heavy armor worse for PVE. I have tested this a pretty decent amount on the PTS as a PvP player.

I would argue the suggested changes proposed in this thread are self serving and don't actually look at the larger picture.

Actually you have the situation exactly backwards. It isn't the tankiness that is the problem it is the fact that literally everyone is using 2hand. Even hybrid is nothing but magica dude with 2 hand.

As far as lore and logic it makes perfect sense for someone like me who likes tanking in dungeons and equally likes going toe to toe in a fight in PVP instead of the *** running, sneaking, backstab, that I can wear heavy armor with snb in PVE and do all content, then use heavy with 2hnd in PVP and not only have good resistance but if I land a hit it should do maximum damage. Health = Strength and should mean MORE damage but SLOW.

Currently it is ridiculous picture this, I'm a khajit nightblade with med armor I am sneaking around the battle field I see someone who has been beaten down by a real man and is about to die, I decide to steal his kill so I sneak up on him and just before I get to him I reach behind my back and pull out a FOUR FOOT LONG, 100 lbs GREAT SWORD that I can barely carry cuz I only have 12K health and execute him with a mighty blow. RIDICULOUS.

We can end the 2hand meta and be more logical by increasing its damage, adding a delay on skills (maybe remove light attack but make medium/heavy attack stronger) and maybe making it cost more stam plus a little health, and if you really want to be accurate how about anyone with less than 20K health should NOT even be able to pick up 2hnd, and should receive massive negative for using it.

[snip]

[snip]

I play heavy and medium I'm talking about balance between defence and offence. Having too much offence means you die easily, having too much defence means you can't kill. Heavy armor has received a buff in this balance and yet had been made much worse for PVE.

On the PTS heavy armor is optimal as you have very high defence with very little sacrifice to offence. Medium and light have more offence, but don't passively have enough damage to take on a heavy user nor survive his damage. I have tested this and as it stands ATM it will be meta to wear heavy armor in PvP next patch.

To balance this I am suggesting more mitigation and less damage for a heavy user and less mitigation and more damage for medium. No agenda, just my thoughts on balance as a result of testing this stuff.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Merforum · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Heavy is already dominant in PvP my point was that they don't give up enough damage to be tanky. These changes emphasise this and make heavy armor worse for PVE. I have tested this a pretty decent amount on the PTS as a PvP player.

I would argue the suggested changes proposed in this thread are self serving and don't actually look at the larger picture.

Actually you have the situation exactly backwards. It isn't the tankiness that is the problem it is the fact that literally everyone is using 2hand. Even hybrid is nothing but magica dude with 2 hand.

As far as lore and logic it makes perfect sense for someone like me who likes tanking in dungeons and equally likes going toe to toe in a fight in PVP instead of the *** running, sneaking, backstab, that I can wear heavy armor with snb in PVE and do all content, then use heavy with 2hnd in PVP and not only have good resistance but if I land a hit it should do maximum damage. Health = Strength and should mean MORE damage but SLOW.

Currently it is ridiculous picture this, I'm a khajit nightblade with med armor I am sneaking around the battle field I see someone who has been beaten down by a real man and is about to die, I decide to steal his kill so I sneak up on him and just before I get to him I reach behind my back and pull out a FOUR FOOT LONG, 100 lbs GREAT SWORD that I can barely carry cuz I only have 12K health and execute him with a mighty blow. RIDICULOUS.

We can end the 2hand meta and be more logical by increasing its damage, adding a delay on skills (maybe remove light attack but make medium/heavy attack stronger) and maybe making it cost more stam plus a little health, and if you really want to be accurate how about anyone with less than 20K health should NOT even be able to pick up 2hnd, and should receive massive negative for using it.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

Who made up this idea that offense and defense need to be 'balanced' whatever that means.

And what is your definition of 'defense'. Someone with high health and high resistance and can block a lot but who walks right up to a battle and becomes the target of literally everyone, that person should have LOW DAMAGE.

But a dude who stays on the outskirts of the battle, can roll dodge anything and take NO damage, and can run away, meanwhile being able to hide/stealth at will, none of that is DEFENSE so they should have MAX damage. WTF. Also this dude can stand back or on platform with a bow never being targeted by anyone and literally shoot 1 skill poison injection on everyone who has been brought to low health by everyone else and get super high damage, plus ALL THE PNTS IN deathmatch.

In BGs the one time I got over 5000 pnts and several times I got over 4000, was when I was doing just that. Even the vids I see complaining about proc sets everyone was doing this. But this PLAYSTYLE is what requires no skill and one button, not other stuff like proc sets. I digress.

Anyway how many of these heavy armor people that you consider having too much damage currently on live or PTS are using 2hnd??? ALL OF THEM, so the problem has NOTHING to do with armor, it is 2hnd is not 'BALANCED' obviously. Like I said to fix the 2hnd meta and simultaneously fix heavy armor damage, we don't NERF heavy, but we add a slight delay and higher cost to all 2hnd abilities but make them do more damage. And the delay on the 2hnd skills should be high enough that it is a difficult choice whether to use it in PVP. Logically it would even make sense to reduce the delay a little bit for people with heavy armor and/or high health since that would represent them being strong and able to wield a 2hnd better.

Literally adding about .2-.5 second delay to all 2hnd skills including light attack would instantly balance all damage in PVP across the board. BTW I was thinking they could change 2hnd skill like to 'single weapon' with the same skills for single 1hand or 2hnd, with the only difference being you lose second 5 piece bonus for 1 1hnd, but 1 2hnd has delay plus dmg boost.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

AMeanOne · February 2021

Oof

olsborg · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP players on the forums have been clamoring for Heavy armor to be gutted so that builds utilizing Malacath and proc sets for damage/sustain would no longer have survivability to fall back upon. Well, it seems ZOS has granted their wish, and nuked Heavy armor from orbit: 7% increased magic damage taken, 21% increased roll dodge cost, 7% reduced sprint speed, and 70% increased detection radius, making stealth impossible, alongside nerfs to Heavy armor passives like the armor from Resolve and sustain from Revitalize and Rapid Mending. These nerfs, coupled with the removal of Shadow Ward for block cost and other CP changes, mean the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction; Medium armor may now actually be tankier than Heavy, granting 14% AOE damage reduction, 21% block cost reduction, and all with ZERO drawbacks whatsoever. Yet again, PvP players have managed to get an entire playstyle nerfed, and this time, PvE players will pay the price with longer dungeon queue times as tanks quit or change roles. Enjoy looking forward to the exact same proc sets being (ab)used with the exact same Malacath strategy, only this time it will be on Medium armor, which now provides 14% damage reduction to many attacks in PvE, alongside permablocking from its new block cost reduction passive, along with passives to boost Weapon Damage and Stamina recovery that Heavy armor never had. Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor.

I have tested this on the PTS. Heavy is still better than both.

I would recommend that heavy keep it 2 % mitigation per piece but work for magical and physical. It should have a damage penalty per piece instead -3-4% damage done per piece.

Medium should take more magical damage as a penalty and increase its WD per piece to 3-4% up from 2%.

This would make it better for surviving all content whilst making bad for damage.

Whoa, I dont often get impressed by any idea here on the forum, but i rly rly like this one.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

To balance this I am suggesting more mitigation and less damage for a heavy user and less mitigation and more damage for medium. No agenda, just my thoughts on balance as a result of testing this stuff.

Come up with a Crit passive for DK or something for DK tanks to do in Cyrodiil and maybe I'd open my ears to the idea. Until then, a nerf to heavy damage inequitably benefits classes which have crit passives. Which is all of them, except DK.

My agenda is clear, defend the interests of DK.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

To balance this I am suggesting more mitigation and less damage for a heavy user and less mitigation and more damage for medium. No agenda, just my thoughts on balance as a result of testing this stuff.

Come up with a Crit passive for DK or something for DK tanks to do in Cyrodiil and maybe I'd open my ears to the idea. Until then, a nerf to heavy damage inequitably benefits classes which have crit passives. Which is all of them, except DK.

My agenda is clear, defend the interests of DK.

Stamsorc doesn't have crit passives, but because crit surge is too good to give up you are forced to run crit essentially. They also can't utilise malacath as effectively as a result. Not having crit bonuses can be blessing while malacath is a thing. Stamdk has passive access to minor brutality, which is all the time and not chance. Which more than makes up for the lack of crit passives imo and actually buffs medium via another route. It is an additional 10% damage without rng.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamsorc doesn't have crit passives, but because crit surge is too good to give up you are forced to run crit essentially. They also can't utilise malacath as effectively as a result. Not having crit bonuses can be blessing while malacath is a thing. Stamdk has passive access to minor brutality, which is all the time and not chance. Which more than makes up for the lack of crit passives imo and actually buffs medium via another route. It is an additional 10% damage without rng.

Right, this is our meta as much as it probably could be, the Heavy Malacath meta. True StamSorc doesn't really have a Crit passive, but there is a solid reward for running Crit that makes up for some of the loss in survivability by equipping Medium. It just isn't matched by DK's only class-based Crit thing whatsoever, which is that Flames of Oblivion is an alternative to Pots or Expert Hunter.

From my point of the view, Minor Brutality was specifically designed to make up for the loss of Medium's 15% Weapon Damage. Minor Brutality is relatively stronger in Heavy than in Medium, so in my view this passive reinforces the StamDK = Heavy DD idea more than it recommends wearing Medium. If it gave an integer Weapon Damage that was buffed by Medium's passives, or vice-versa, DK would be rewarded for equipping Medium over Heavy.

Firstmep · February 2021

DonGodJoe wrote: »

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamsorc doesn't have crit passives, but because crit surge is too good to give up you are forced to run crit essentially. They also can't utilise malacath as effectively as a result. Not having crit bonuses can be blessing while malacath is a thing. Stamdk has passive access to minor brutality, which is all the time and not chance. Which more than makes up for the lack of crit passives imo and actually buffs medium via another route. It is an additional 10% damage without rng.

Right, this is our meta as much as it probably could be, the Heavy Malacath meta. True StamSorc doesn't really have a Crit passive, but there is a solid reward for running Crit that makes up for some of the loss in survivability by equipping Medium. It just isn't matched by DK's only class-based Crit thing whatsoever, which is that Flames of Oblivion is an alternative to Pots or Expert Hunter.

From my point of the view, Minor Brutality was specifically designed to make up for the loss of Medium's 15% Weapon Damage. Minor Brutality is relatively stronger in Heavy than in Medium, so in my view this passive reinforces the StamDK = Heavy DD idea more than it recommends wearing Medium. If it gave an integer Weapon Damage that was buffed by Medium's passives, or vice-versa, DK would be rewarded for equipping Medium over Heavy.

How is minor brutality stronger in heavy?
Medium increases your weapon damage, and so does brutality, you can literally get more value from brutality buffs in medium.

@Merforum your argument about 2h being the main issue really feels like to me your someone that runs very squishy builds or don't know how not get bopped by dizzy swing.
I guess vate destro/brp destro, zaan, 6k hp recovery, perma mist, heavy armor malacath builds are too strong Beacuse of 2h too?

The problem with heavy, is that we can get too much dmg out of our sets, whether it's stats or procs, vs the amount of dmg we get out of our armor passives.
Plain and simple.
Malacath compounds on this, and with crit chance getting nerfed even further, mala will become even more dominant.
Next patch putting on light or medium armor won't give you nearly as much dmg as it is on live.
Removing the 5pc requirement from the strongest dmg passives means you can now run 5 heavy and let's say 2 light, and still get over 1800 spell pen from the light armor passive. That's damage you didn't have in heavy armor before.
Like I said the crit provided by these armor types is irrelevant for pvp now, they outright halved the crit bonus on medium on pts.
I think I like the way they're going with medium armor still, giving it more mobility and aoe reduction, reinforcing it's agile, elusive nature. I wish they could do the same for light armor, instead of giving us some lame dodge cost redux.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

How is minor brutality stronger in heavy?
Medium increases your weapon damage, and so does brutality, you can literally get more value from brutality buffs in medium.

Because Medium's passive and Minor Brutality are both percentile buffs of the same integer, Weapon Damage. Minor Brutality provides a larger relative increase in Weapon Damage in the absence of the Medium armor buff. This is how nearly every percentile buff in this game works - the fewer of them there are, the relatively stronger any one of them is.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

You actually get less relative value out of Brutality in Medium than you do in Heavy, in other words. Work out the math and you will see.

Firstmep · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

How is minor brutality stronger in heavy?
Medium increases your weapon damage, and so does brutality, you can literally get more value from brutality buffs in medium.

Because Medium's passive and Minor Brutality are both percentile buffs of the same integer, Weapon Damage. Minor Brutality provides a larger relative increase in Weapon Damage in the absence of the Medium armor buff. This is how nearly every percentile buff in this game works - the fewer of them there are, the relatively stronger any one of them is.

Yes and no, in the absence of mediums wpd buff, minor brutality accounts for a higher % of your total wpd, however you will still have more wpd in medium.
You can easily figure this out by using an easy number like 100 as base and applying minor brutality to both medium and non medium.
You are right in that minor brutality has a higher impact on a heavy armor builds total weapon damage, but I could also argue that I can push my wpd further in medium armor.
And DK having brutality definetly doesnt mean the class was designed for heavy armor.
These buffs were assigned to promote a more diverse class lineup in group content, since for most of these buffs, their easiest source is from their respective class.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

Yes and no, in the absence of mediums wpd buff, minor brutality accounts for a higher % of your total wpd, however you will still have more wpd in medium.
You can easily figure this out by using an easy number like 100 as base and applying minor brutality to both medium and non medium.
You are right in that minor brutality has a higher impact on a heavy armor builds total weapon damage, but I could also argue that I can push my wpd further in medium armor.
And DK having brutality definetly doesnt mean the class was designed for heavy armor.
These buffs were assigned to promote a more diverse class lineup in group content, since for most of these buffs, their easiest source is from their respective class.

Yes, but that you would have more Weapon Damage in Medium has nothing to do with Brutality. If you didn't put any points in the Medium passive, you would have identical Weapon Damage in Heavy or Medium with or without Brutality.

This is just a bit of corroborative evidence that the DK was initially designed with Heavy armor in mind. There are some others: Molten Armament's Heavy attack buff, the absence of any class buffs to Crit, Dragon Blood scaling off of Health (and once upon a time both morphs scaled off Spell Crit), the word Knight in the name, and the fact that everybody knows it was initially designed to be the tank class.

There isn't any room for dispute about whether or not the Knight class was initially intended to wear Heavy. Elfbane is Heavy.

There is plenty of room for dispute about whether we should permit this issue to interfere with broader global balance or let DKs be relegated to a pure tank class after Heavy's damage is nerfed but before DK gets any Crit passives. For those of us that main DK, the answer is probably yes let it interfere, for those that don't, the answer is probably no. All we can really do is present our arguments to the devs and see how it pans out.

I can't speak for other DKs, but I don't want the Knight class to not be the Heavy armor class. I don't view it as a weakness, but a strength. Strong, like metal, not weak, like leather.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You actually get less relative value out of Brutality in Medium than you do in Heavy, in other words. Work out the math and you will see.

Weapon damage percentiles are additive not multiplicative so this isn't true. It is true for different sources of mitigation and maybe something else I can't think of ATM. Weapon damage is additive though. So minor and major brutality gives 30% on 7 medium next patch it's 44%.

Edit: it obviously depends what sets you are using and what base weapon damage is being increased by a percentage as well.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Weapon damage percentiles are additive not multiplicative so this isn't true. It is true for different sources of mitigation and maybe something else I can't think of ATM. Weapon damage is additive though. So minor and major brutality gives 30% on 7 medium next patch it's 44%.

Edit: it obviously depends what sets you are using and what base weapon damage is being increased by a percentage as well.

It is true. The fewer percentile buffs you have, the relatively stronger any one of them is. It really doesn't matter if they're multiplicative or additive.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

I think you may have misunderstood me there @relentless_turnip when I say "relatively stronger" because I'm not quite being clear, I'm not saying the Medium passive reduces the Minor Brutality, like if it were multiplicative. I'm just saying in Heavy, Minor Brutality is a larger portion of your total weapon damage than it is in Medium.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think you may have misunderstood me there @relentless_turnip when I say "relatively stronger" because I'm not quite being clear, I'm not saying the Medium passive reduces the Minor Brutality, like if it were multiplicative. I'm just saying in Heavy, Minor Brutality is a larger portion of your total weapon damage than it is in Medium.

I appreciate you explaining. I'm still not quite sure what you mean.

New moon gives you 530 WD. In 7 heavy with minor and major brutality this is worth 689.
With the same buffs in medium it is worth 763. Medium will always grant you more WD if the base WD is the same.

I think heavy is stronger because you don't lose a lot of weapon damage compared to how much defence you gain.

Dracane · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think you may have misunderstood me there @relentless_turnip when I say "relatively stronger" because I'm not quite being clear, I'm not saying the Medium passive reduces the Minor Brutality, like if it were multiplicative. I'm just saying in Heavy, Minor Brutality is a larger portion of your total weapon damage than it is in Medium.

It's simply not true [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

silver1surfer69 · February 2021

Guys what do you think will be meta in pvp for stam brawler classes? 4-3 heavy-med, thats my guess. What do you think?

relentless_turnip · February 2021

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Guys what do you think will be meta in pvp for stam brawler classes? 4-3 heavy-med, thats my guess. What do you think?

On the PTS predominantly heavy seems to be the strongest. The ratio of medium to heavy I'm not sure will be best. I tried 5 heavy and 2 medium on stamcro and it was strong. As at the time of testing I had 10% extra mitigation for most the fight. If you have room to install it I'll happily jump on and help you test @silver1surfer69

Urzigurumash · February 2021

Dracane wrote: »

It's simply not true [snip]

Yes it is, Minor Brutality on a Heavy Build is a larger percentage of the Total Weapon Damage than it is on a Medium build. In other words, divide the amount of Weapon Damage granted by Minor Brutality by the Total Weapon Damage. It will always be a larger number on Heavy.

ExistingRug61 · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I think you may have misunderstood me there @relentless_turnip when I say "relatively stronger" because I'm not quite being clear, I'm not saying the Medium passive reduces the Minor Brutality, like if it were multiplicative. I'm just saying in Heavy, Minor Brutality is a larger portion of your total weapon damage than it is in Medium.

I appreciate you explaining. I'm still not quite sure what you mean.

New moon gives you 530 WD. In 7 heavy with minor and major brutality this is worth 689.
With the same buffs in medium it is worth 763. Medium will always grant you more WD if the base WD is the same.

I think heavy is stronger because you don't lose a lot of weapon damage compared to how much defence you gain.

What he is referring to is that it is contributing a larger proportion of the final value.
In both cases above minor brutality is adding 53 weapon damage.
But in the case of heavy this is 53/689 = 7.7%
In the case of medium it’s 53/763 = 6.9%
Ie: in heavy minor brutality is having a larger relative effect on the end result. The relative (not absolute) gain is higher, even though the total is less.
It’s just a different way of looking at it to yours.

Another way of looking at it is that because of its passive, stam dk gets the same benefit from a set that provides base weapon damage ie: 129, without having to need the extra 5 medium pieces that every other class would (unless they pick up minor brutality another way).

As to whether this indicates that stamdk is more tailored to heavy I would say that’s not as clear cut. While the above could be argued I think an equal argument would be that stamdk having minor brutality means it synergises well with high base weapon damage, which also synergises with medium armour. Which I think is where you are coming from.

As an aside for @Urzigurumash, your logic on minor brutality also works the other way for crit: Stamdk not having any crit chance passives means that it gains relatively more from the crit chance provided by medium armour. Although in malacath times that point is somewhat moot.