Kittytravel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not even so amazing that people don't get it. It's not even that people are really concerned about the "time they lost" or lost power due to 'lost CP's."

If they had started us on the new system with 80% of the CP's, you'd have room to ***. They're not doing that.

You're not losting anything.

The complaint isn't that it took longer to get to X CP's, it's that it won't take someone else as long, which is childish and asinine. Them leveling faster won't somehow make you less strong.

It's not worth less in terms of placement value. It's worth the same.

Someone that made $100k in 1980 vs someone that made $100k in 2020 both have $100K. 1980 guy doesn't get to demand $300k more because it was harder to earn. Every dollar both make in 2020 from that point on is worth the same.

Here's another way to look at it, since people are so scared to death of someone else actually being allowed to have a capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game:

If you at your current CP's and Frickin' New Guy at 10 CP's play enough to earn the same number of XP's per day, FNG is always going to be behind you, right up until you're both finally at cap.

Be glad they reduced the curve at all, or worse, made it even harder to grind above XXX level.

You don't complain about "lost XP" during a 2X XP event if you don't get to play for one day, vs the people that do. This is NO different.

[snip]

1. If [snip] as you put it is what a conversation is then I'd wholly suggest you avoid forums for the rest of your life and probably other people as well.
2. Your example makes no sense at all as real world economies fluctuate the value of goods and services based on a variety of factors outside the heavily controlled world of a MMO game. Drawing real world conclusions from an environment with hundreds of outward factors isn't even close to equatable to a environment that is dependent on two. XP and CP. It's just plain disingenuous of you.
3. Yes, leveling them faster does make us less strong because the method being used front load EXP to earlier CP levels while removing XP from the original pool. If you are CP 870 you will still be CP 870 in the new system, losing about 1/3rd your total power currently. You will need to level back up to get to where you were, this isn't an opinion it is an absolute fact from all the test parses have done from PTS to Live. If CP 870 in the old system takes 500,000,000 EXP to get to in the new system it might only take 3,000,000. And then despite you reaching that 5 mil status you are just reverted to the 3 mil and the EXP you had is lost.
4. "Capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game". Last I checked it takes roughly double the amount of time (by XP point) to reach CP 1750 that it did to reach CP810. So... no time has actually been given.
5. And finally your 'lost XP' argument doesn't even stand. If that was the case I'd be here saying 'I didn't play for 3 months where is my free XP?" but I'm not. You literally have purposely misconstrued an entire valid line of logical thinking and twisted it into the facade of some screaming child. I'm not asking for any amount of XP I haven't earned. I'm asking for my pool of total XP to not be diluted over some false claim that it will allow lower CP players to catch up.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Regarding #1:
The new curve is most definitely a catch up mechanic (although a weak one).
It does mean that newer players close the CP gap to longer term players faster than they would under the old curve.
Consider several players at this point in time, at 0CP, 400CP, 800CP, 1200CP, 1600CP for instance. So everyone starts 400CP apart.
Lets say that all players play and gain xp at the same rate over the next unspecified period, and they all gain 50mil XP.

So under the new xp curve, all of the gaps are smaller in terms of CP than they would have been under the old curve.
Thus it would appear to me that the change in xp curve will function as a catch up mechanic, albeit not actually a very big one, and certainly nothing to the degree of your last suggestion.
(Note: there are some specific CP ranges where the gap doesn’t always get smaller in CP2.0 for the same xp due the point the 1.5 multiplier starts applying being in a different place under the two curves, but this corrects back to smaller gains eventually as more xp/cp is gained)

I'll start off with thanks for such a detailed reply! It's something the devs would probably want to see instead of having to mull it over themselves.

So while it's true that the gaps are smaller the catch up mechanic doesn't work as well here due to the integral difference in active-useful level.
In the current system that is considered to be CP810; in the new system after their most recent changes to stars it's CP 1750. So from those who have attempted to test (which is hard to do since they won't provide a max-level template) they have averaged that the DPS you can get now at CP810 is equivalent to what you could get at CP1750. These are very rough averages from what I have read so take them lightly but I think we all know that we are losing power since the system itself is changing and climbing higher.

So while the curve does shrink the effective level of 150 million EXP does not; in the current system that's capped while in the new system (assuming XP carryover) an 810 would be moved to CP1006 (using your table). This is better for them because it does put them closer to their original level of power but they are still 744 CP from where they were.

So despite being a 'catchup' you end up needing 250 million EXP to get around CP1719 and your finally back where you essentially already were before the change happened. Now I'm not asking to be moved for free to where my DPS, Stats, and Capabilities won't change. That's part of the game, stuff gets nerfed. That's an MMO.

But the EXP values I earned shouldn't be diluted as it's time I spent that is accurately recorded within the game, to disregard that (to me) is to disregard my time spent playing your game for the past few years.

Firstly, thanks, I enjoy having these sort of discussions and seeing the thoughts of others like yourself, especially when they also give well presented or detailed replies so I do try to do the same when I provide my own. Leads to walls of text though...

Anyway, to me the fundamental problem here is that our 810CP is now not the same power level as 810Cp will be in the new system leading to players at this level (810CP) feeling a power loss, but this is a separate issue to the perceived xp loss or dilution. However, this problem causes players to seek out ways that they could be back closer to their original power, and the idea of carrying over xp is something that will bring them back closer. Which I understand, but to me its not a "good" fix and is just masking the actual cause of the issue - the sudden shift in how much power we get from our CP and over what range we obtain that power ie: power gained over 0-810CP is now instead gained over 0 - ~1750/2000CP)

(also FYI my table isn't the carryover equivalents, rather its the CP players would get to if there was no carryover and then they gained xp from that point under either of the two systems, as a comparison)

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Now, on to your last suggestion. Beyond being a much stronger catch up mechanic, how is this any different than simply lowering the xp required for those first however many hundred xp?
Its basically like lowering the requirement for all CP under CP1000 by whatever amount the multiple is. So its basically the equivalent of changing the curve, just in a different way.
It would however be a change that is more targeted towards the front end of CP, so in that sense it would be a better catch up mechanic than the current way the curve has been changed.

Because you didn't lower the XP required; you upped Enlightenment for lower level CP players which is an true catch-up mechanic. I'm not losing on any XP I've acquired. I'm not being told "Hey, Timmy just joined the game so since he's behind you we are gonna shrink your XP pool from the 150 million you've accumulated to 50 million so it's easier for him to catch up and also you need to level up 800 more times."

But adding extra enlightenment for those under CP is functionally the same as lowering the requirement to get that CP.
ie:
If we keep the curve unchanged (ie as per CP1.0) but add an extra always on enlightenment multiplier of say 2x for while under CP1000.
Under CP1.0 a player needs ~ 336mil xp to reach CP1000
Lets say for examples sake under these conditions a player does say some group of a quests, with a total nominal total xp reward of 118mil xp gained in doing so. The enlightenment causes this to be doubled to 336mil xp, so the player is now CP1000.

Alternatively, we don't add enlightenment and instead change the xp requirements to get to CP1000, halving the required xp to reach CP1000 (like lowering the curve for a section of CP). So the xp required to reach CP1000 is lowered to 118mil.
Again, lets say under these conditions a player does the exact same set of quests as above, so they earn 118mil xp.
They are now CP1000.

So both cases give the same resulting CP for the same set of gameplay performed. Sure the total xp gained isn't the same but thats just a means to an end - which is CP. This is what I mean by using enlightenment as an extra factor is functionally identical to lower the xp curve by the same proportion in terms of the resulting CP gain.
The only difference is a perception difference of how much total xp was "earned". The relationship between CP earned, and hence power, to gameplay time/effort etc is the same.

The difference in this example here in comparison to what has actually been implemented, is that ZOS have lowered the xp requirement across the entire CP range, not just the first part.
This could effectively be viewed as adding extra enlightenment for all players that is on at all times (with the amount varying somewhat depending on your current CP amount). This is why even though I said it is technically a catch up mechanic, I agree it isn't actually a very strong one.

That's the difference to me; one is a targeted move to actually address the issue at the root which is older players being so far ahead of newer ones. The change doesn't actually affect older players at all since they aren't having their total XP diluted nor are they losing power; newer players are gaining power at an exponentially faster rate but at the same measurements that the veterans had to do so. This is a very loose and poor analogy I shall preface with that.

Xanathar has 60,000 Gold. This is considered the 'average' amount of gold in his game for a veteran player to have.
Jones just joined the game and he has 1,000 Gold.

Instead of adding a catchup mechanic for Jones to make the other 59,000 Gold we decide that 1,000 is the new standard and Xanathars gold is now only worth 5,000 gold while also adding a mechanic that will make Jones get 4,000 more gold as he levels to max cap but we didn't change any of the store prices. That's roughly what is happening here; the gold is XP and is being removed from the game because it's deemed problematic for players to catch up to. The CP points however still cost the same amount, 1 level, but now the guy who could have bought anything he wanted with 60k has to pick and choose while new players haven't actually gained or lost anything. Xanathar will still continue earning gold at his higher level at a faster rate due to more play options. Jones will still never catch up unless Xanathar stops playing for a long haitus.

By frontloading the earliest CP levels Xanathar doesn't lose anything, he doesn't care if Jones is given a new system that will give him 59,000 Gold as he levels up. By the time Jones gets to Xanathars level Xanathar will have made another 120,000. But that type of catch up system doesn't inconveniance or take away from anyone; it only helps the new player reach a baseline state that will allow him to join Xanathar as a fellow player.

There are two parts to this analogy
1) Using xp as a currency to obtain CP points
2) Using CP points to obtain an effect/star etc

In the first case, they have lowered the "store" price of the item Xanathar wants to buy. Sure he now only has 5000 gold, but he can obtain the same amount of CP points for that 5000 gold under the new system as he could with his 60000 gold under the old system.

The problem that makes it seem like Xanathar now has less choice comes from the second conversion of CP points into effects. He can no longer get as much "effect" for the same amount of CP points.
This is where ZOS have changed things as well. We get less effect for each CP point we earn, partially due to the vertical cap being higher, and partially due to some of our power being shifted to base stats. But this isn't a problem with the XP to CP curve, but rather this is due to the change in what value/effect/power we now get per CP point, and hence I don't think doing things like converting CP based on XP is the right place to be looking to address the issue. Rather, we need to be able to get to the same (or a similar) power level for the same amount of CP earned.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

And, in terms of the context of the primary question of this thread - whether CP should be adjusted to fit the new xp curve – the exact same argument to adjust existing players CP could be made under your suggested enlightenment change.

Consider:
I am going to use a simplified version to make this a bit simpler for me to calculate, sp lets say players under CP1000 get an extra 4x XP boost at all times, as some form of extra enlightenment, but the xp curve remains unchanged.
So instead of requiring 336,628,454 XP to get to CP1000 (CP1.0 xp value), it would now effectively only take 336,628,454/4 = 84,157,113 XP of XP rewards, ie: the first 84,157,113 XP a player earns gets multiplied by 4.

But what if I was already CP1000. I could say:
I have already earned 336,628,454 XP.
But, if the new enlightenment change existed when I earned that, the first 84,157,113 XP of it would have been multiplied by 4.
So I should actually have and extra 3*84,157,113 = 252,471,339 XP
So I should actually have 336,628,454 + 252,471,339 = 589,099,793 XP which would mean I should actually be CP1273 under the old curve.
Does that sound right? Should I be “given” that extra 252 mil xp, because that’s what I would have if the new xp boon system existed when I earned my xp?
Considered like this, it doesn’t seem to me to make sense to be added. And yet, this is exactly the same thing that asking for a CP conversion to the new xp/cp curve is asking for.

I don't agree with calling the CP conversion the same thing as a catch up mechanic. Games introduce catch up mechanics to new players all the time but the older players never receive compensation; and that is exactly my issue here. If this was a catch up mechanic targeting new players I'd be perfectly fine. If they told me "Hey we are only shrinking the first 800 levels" I'd say "Well I already spent my 8 months at level 800 and I'm not losing any of my power."

In this scenario though I am losing power; as many parses have attested from PTS to live you do not acquire the same amount of power as currently exists at 810. This is why I view it as a 'punishment' to players who have already hit the original cap and their banked XP is essentially being wiped. Yes we can climb another 400-600 levels to get where we were but it doesn't change that we essentially were shirked time getting there without a good valid reason (and yes that is all I want; a good and valid reason for why it's necessary to not carry over XP values. And the 'catch-up' reason isn't a good or valid one.)

This is the same issue as above - CP points not providing the same power/effect as before.

I think at its most fundamental aspect we are looking at this is slightly different ways:

We both agree that we are losing power (the effect of CP) that we had gained by spending gameplay time/effort. The difference comes from having different perceived measures of gameplay time/effort.

You are measuring your gameplay time/effort in terms of total XP earned, and under the curve change, depending on how you look at it, it can be perceived that this "total xp" number is being reduced as you are being shifted down the curve to keep CP the same, so then you come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (XP) is being reduced, and my power is as well. The two are related via the CP system, so if there was a conversion to keep my perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort the same, this would give me more CP, which would restore some of my lost power.

I am measuring my gameplay time/effort in terms of CP earned, and so don't perceive that I am "losing" anything in the XP/CP regard. So I come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (CP), has stayed the same but I have lost power, so the solution is that my CP points need to provide more power/effect (like they used to) as this would restore some of my lost power.

Hence why I said I think the fundamental issue is what Joy identified.

Yeah I can see that we are both essentially targeting the same fundamental from both sides just with a different method. On my side I think that the lost power can be supplemented by using XP to target CP level and allow players more leeway in the method that they earned whereas on your end fundamentally the system is punishing to a lower level player as there are too many essential combat passives that drive the players into a corner without them in most aspects of game play. Overall the system was designed without any actual forethought into the end product of what they wanted it to be it seems; did they want the endless grind of levels or was the crunch designed to catch players up faster? It seems both goals got horribly mixed and the end product is an overall loss of power without compensation to anyone and new players still have to climb over the horrendously large mountain that existed before.

I definitely would prefer on ZOS's end, more than anything if I can't have my XP converted to CP, a much more heavily loaded catch-up system for newer players. I'm capped on CP right now if only barely and it's taken me 4 years to do so. The issue with the new system is yes the curve is lowered but if the effective XP required to reach 810 is equivalent to reach 1750 then the system has literally done nothing to help newer players. (Which I believe it takes 324,000,000 EXP to reach 810 in the newer system down from 387,009,530 but then still requires a total of 700,000,000 to reach 1750 which is roughly the same power break point for current 810. Which means we haven't actually helped new players.)

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not even so amazing that people don't get it. It's not even that people are really concerned about the "time they lost" or lost power due to 'lost CP's."

If they had started us on the new system with 80% of the CP's, you'd have room to ***. They're not doing that.

You're not losting anything.

The complaint isn't that it took longer to get to X CP's, it's that it won't take someone else as long, which is childish and asinine. Them leveling faster won't somehow make you less strong.

It's not worth less in terms of placement value. It's worth the same.

Someone that made $100k in 1980 vs someone that made $100k in 2020 both have $100K. 1980 guy doesn't get to demand $300k more because it was harder to earn. Every dollar both make in 2020 from that point on is worth the same.

Here's another way to look at it, since people are so scared to death of someone else actually being allowed to have a capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game:

If you at your current CP's and Frickin' New Guy at 10 CP's play enough to earn the same number of XP's per day, FNG is always going to be behind you, right up until you're both finally at cap.

Be glad they reduced the curve at all, or worse, made it even harder to grind above XXX level.

You don't complain about "lost XP" during a 2X XP event if you don't get to play for one day, vs the people that do. This is NO different.

[snip]

1. If [snip] as you put it is what a conversation is then I'd wholly suggest you avoid forums for the rest of your life and probably other people as well.
2. Your example makes no sense at all as real world economies fluctuate the value of goods and services based on a variety of factors outside the heavily controlled world of a MMO game. Drawing real world conclusions from an environment with hundreds of outward factors isn't even close to equatable to a environment that is dependent on two. XP and CP. It's just plain disingenuous of you.
3. Yes, leveling them faster does make us less strong because the method being used front load EXP to earlier CP levels while removing XP from the original pool. If you are CP 870 you will still be CP 870 in the new system, losing about 1/3rd your total power currently. You will need to level back up to get to where you were, this isn't an opinion it is an absolute fact from all the test parses have done from PTS to Live. If CP 870 in the old system takes 500,000,000 EXP to get to in the new system it might only take 3,000,000. And then despite you reaching that 5 mil status you are just reverted to the 3 mil and the EXP you had is lost.
4. "Capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game". Last I checked it takes roughly double the amount of time (by XP point) to reach CP 1750 that it did to reach CP810. So... no time has actually been given.
5. And finally your 'lost XP' argument doesn't even stand. If that was the case I'd be here saying 'I didn't play for 3 months where is my free XP?" but I'm not. You literally have purposely misconstrued an entire valid line of logical thinking and twisted it into the facade of some screaming child. I'm not asking for any amount of XP I haven't earned. I'm asking for my pool of total XP to not be diluted over some false claim that it will allow lower CP players to catch up.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Regarding #1:
The new curve is most definitely a catch up mechanic (although a weak one).
It does mean that newer players close the CP gap to longer term players faster than they would under the old curve.
Consider several players at this point in time, at 0CP, 400CP, 800CP, 1200CP, 1600CP for instance. So everyone starts 400CP apart.
Lets say that all players play and gain xp at the same rate over the next unspecified period, and they all gain 50mil XP.

So under the new xp curve, all of the gaps are smaller in terms of CP than they would have been under the old curve.
Thus it would appear to me that the change in xp curve will function as a catch up mechanic, albeit not actually a very big one, and certainly nothing to the degree of your last suggestion.
(Note: there are some specific CP ranges where the gap doesn’t always get smaller in CP2.0 for the same xp due the point the 1.5 multiplier starts applying being in a different place under the two curves, but this corrects back to smaller gains eventually as more xp/cp is gained)

I'll start off with thanks for such a detailed reply! It's something the devs would probably want to see instead of having to mull it over themselves.

So while it's true that the gaps are smaller the catch up mechanic doesn't work as well here due to the integral difference in active-useful level.
In the current system that is considered to be CP810; in the new system after their most recent changes to stars it's CP 1750. So from those who have attempted to test (which is hard to do since they won't provide a max-level template) they have averaged that the DPS you can get now at CP810 is equivalent to what you could get at CP1750. These are very rough averages from what I have read so take them lightly but I think we all know that we are losing power since the system itself is changing and climbing higher.

So while the curve does shrink the effective level of 150 million EXP does not; in the current system that's capped while in the new system (assuming XP carryover) an 810 would be moved to CP1006 (using your table). This is better for them because it does put them closer to their original level of power but they are still 744 CP from where they were.

So despite being a 'catchup' you end up needing 250 million EXP to get around CP1719 and your finally back where you essentially already were before the change happened. Now I'm not asking to be moved for free to where my DPS, Stats, and Capabilities won't change. That's part of the game, stuff gets nerfed. That's an MMO.

But the EXP values I earned shouldn't be diluted as it's time I spent that is accurately recorded within the game, to disregard that (to me) is to disregard my time spent playing your game for the past few years.

Firstly, thanks, I enjoy having these sort of discussions and seeing the thoughts of others like yourself, especially when they also give well presented or detailed replies so I do try to do the same when I provide my own. Leads to walls of text though...

Anyway, to me the fundamental problem here is that our 810CP is now not the same power level as 810Cp will be in the new system leading to players at this level (810CP) feeling a power loss, but this is a separate issue to the perceived xp loss or dilution. However, this problem causes players to seek out ways that they could be back closer to their original power, and the idea of carrying over xp is something that will bring them back closer. Which I understand, but to me its not a "good" fix and is just masking the actual cause of the issue - the sudden shift in how much power we get from our CP and over what range we obtain that power ie: power gained over 0-810CP is now instead gained over 0 - ~1750/2000CP)

(also FYI my table isn't the carryover equivalents, rather its the CP players would get to if there was no carryover and then they gained xp from that point under either of the two systems, as a comparison)

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Now, on to your last suggestion. Beyond being a much stronger catch up mechanic, how is this any different than simply lowering the xp required for those first however many hundred xp?
Its basically like lowering the requirement for all CP under CP1000 by whatever amount the multiple is. So its basically the equivalent of changing the curve, just in a different way.
It would however be a change that is more targeted towards the front end of CP, so in that sense it would be a better catch up mechanic than the current way the curve has been changed.

Because you didn't lower the XP required; you upped Enlightenment for lower level CP players which is an true catch-up mechanic. I'm not losing on any XP I've acquired. I'm not being told "Hey, Timmy just joined the game so since he's behind you we are gonna shrink your XP pool from the 150 million you've accumulated to 50 million so it's easier for him to catch up and also you need to level up 800 more times."

But adding extra enlightenment for those under CP is functionally the same as lowering the requirement to get that CP.
ie:
If we keep the curve unchanged (ie as per CP1.0) but add an extra always on enlightenment multiplier of say 2x for while under CP1000.
Under CP1.0 a player needs ~ 336mil xp to reach CP1000
Lets say for examples sake under these conditions a player does say some group of a quests, with a total nominal total xp reward of 118mil xp gained in doing so. The enlightenment causes this to be doubled to 336mil xp, so the player is now CP1000.

Alternatively, we don't add enlightenment and instead change the xp requirements to get to CP1000, halving the required xp to reach CP1000 (like lowering the curve for a section of CP). So the xp required to reach CP1000 is lowered to 118mil.
Again, lets say under these conditions a player does the exact same set of quests as above, so they earn 118mil xp.
They are now CP1000.

So both cases give the same resulting CP for the same set of gameplay performed. Sure the total xp gained isn't the same but thats just a means to an end - which is CP. This is what I mean by using enlightenment as an extra factor is functionally identical to lower the xp curve by the same proportion in terms of the resulting CP gain.
The only difference is a perception difference of how much total xp was "earned". The relationship between CP earned, and hence power, to gameplay time/effort etc is the same.

The difference in this example here in comparison to what has actually been implemented, is that ZOS have lowered the xp requirement across the entire CP range, not just the first part.
This could effectively be viewed as adding extra enlightenment for all players that is on at all times (with the amount varying somewhat depending on your current CP amount). This is why even though I said it is technically a catch up mechanic, I agree it isn't actually a very strong one.

That's the difference to me; one is a targeted move to actually address the issue at the root which is older players being so far ahead of newer ones. The change doesn't actually affect older players at all since they aren't having their total XP diluted nor are they losing power; newer players are gaining power at an exponentially faster rate but at the same measurements that the veterans had to do so. This is a very loose and poor analogy I shall preface with that.

Xanathar has 60,000 Gold. This is considered the 'average' amount of gold in his game for a veteran player to have.
Jones just joined the game and he has 1,000 Gold.

Instead of adding a catchup mechanic for Jones to make the other 59,000 Gold we decide that 1,000 is the new standard and Xanathars gold is now only worth 5,000 gold while also adding a mechanic that will make Jones get 4,000 more gold as he levels to max cap but we didn't change any of the store prices. That's roughly what is happening here; the gold is XP and is being removed from the game because it's deemed problematic for players to catch up to. The CP points however still cost the same amount, 1 level, but now the guy who could have bought anything he wanted with 60k has to pick and choose while new players haven't actually gained or lost anything. Xanathar will still continue earning gold at his higher level at a faster rate due to more play options. Jones will still never catch up unless Xanathar stops playing for a long haitus.

By frontloading the earliest CP levels Xanathar doesn't lose anything, he doesn't care if Jones is given a new system that will give him 59,000 Gold as he levels up. By the time Jones gets to Xanathars level Xanathar will have made another 120,000. But that type of catch up system doesn't inconveniance or take away from anyone; it only helps the new player reach a baseline state that will allow him to join Xanathar as a fellow player.

There are two parts to this analogy
1) Using xp as a currency to obtain CP points
2) Using CP points to obtain an effect/star etc

In the first case, they have lowered the "store" price of the item Xanathar wants to buy. Sure he now only has 5000 gold, but he can obtain the same amount of CP points for that 5000 gold under the new system as he could with his 60000 gold under the old system.

The problem that makes it seem like Xanathar now has less choice comes from the second conversion of CP points into effects. He can no longer get as much "effect" for the same amount of CP points.
This is where ZOS have changed things as well. We get less effect for each CP point we earn, partially due to the vertical cap being higher, and partially due to some of our power being shifted to base stats. But this isn't a problem with the XP to CP curve, but rather this is due to the change in what value/effect/power we now get per CP point, and hence I don't think doing things like converting CP based on XP is the right place to be looking to address the issue. Rather, we need to be able to get to the same (or a similar) power level for the same amount of CP earned.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

And, in terms of the context of the primary question of this thread - whether CP should be adjusted to fit the new xp curve – the exact same argument to adjust existing players CP could be made under your suggested enlightenment change.

Consider:
I am going to use a simplified version to make this a bit simpler for me to calculate, sp lets say players under CP1000 get an extra 4x XP boost at all times, as some form of extra enlightenment, but the xp curve remains unchanged.
So instead of requiring 336,628,454 XP to get to CP1000 (CP1.0 xp value), it would now effectively only take 336,628,454/4 = 84,157,113 XP of XP rewards, ie: the first 84,157,113 XP a player earns gets multiplied by 4.

But what if I was already CP1000. I could say:
I have already earned 336,628,454 XP.
But, if the new enlightenment change existed when I earned that, the first 84,157,113 XP of it would have been multiplied by 4.
So I should actually have and extra 3*84,157,113 = 252,471,339 XP
So I should actually have 336,628,454 + 252,471,339 = 589,099,793 XP which would mean I should actually be CP1273 under the old curve.
Does that sound right? Should I be “given” that extra 252 mil xp, because that’s what I would have if the new xp boon system existed when I earned my xp?
Considered like this, it doesn’t seem to me to make sense to be added. And yet, this is exactly the same thing that asking for a CP conversion to the new xp/cp curve is asking for.

I don't agree with calling the CP conversion the same thing as a catch up mechanic. Games introduce catch up mechanics to new players all the time but the older players never receive compensation; and that is exactly my issue here. If this was a catch up mechanic targeting new players I'd be perfectly fine. If they told me "Hey we are only shrinking the first 800 levels" I'd say "Well I already spent my 8 months at level 800 and I'm not losing any of my power."

In this scenario though I am losing power; as many parses have attested from PTS to live you do not acquire the same amount of power as currently exists at 810. This is why I view it as a 'punishment' to players who have already hit the original cap and their banked XP is essentially being wiped. Yes we can climb another 400-600 levels to get where we were but it doesn't change that we essentially were shirked time getting there without a good valid reason (and yes that is all I want; a good and valid reason for why it's necessary to not carry over XP values. And the 'catch-up' reason isn't a good or valid one.)

This is the same issue as above - CP points not providing the same power/effect as before.

I think at its most fundamental aspect we are looking at this is slightly different ways:

We both agree that we are losing power (the effect of CP) that we had gained by spending gameplay time/effort. The difference comes from having different perceived measures of gameplay time/effort.

You are measuring your gameplay time/effort in terms of total XP earned, and under the curve change, depending on how you look at it, it can be perceived that this "total xp" number is being reduced as you are being shifted down the curve to keep CP the same, so then you come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (XP) is being reduced, and my power is as well. The two are related via the CP system, so if there was a conversion to keep my perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort the same, this would give me more CP, which would restore some of my lost power.

I am measuring my gameplay time/effort in terms of CP earned, and so don't perceive that I am "losing" anything in the XP/CP regard. So I come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (CP), has stayed the same but I have lost power, so the solution is that my CP points need to provide more power/effect (like they used to) as this would restore some of my lost power.

Hence why I said I think the fundamental issue is what Joy identified.

Yeah I can see that we are both essentially targeting the same fundamental from both sides just with a different method. On my side I think that the lost power can be supplemented by using XP to target CP level and allow players more leeway in the method that they earned whereas on your end fundamentally the system is punishing to a lower level player as there are too many essential combat passives that drive the players into a corner without them in most aspects of game play. Overall the system was designed without any actual forethought into the end product of what they wanted it to be it seems; did they want the endless grind of levels or was the crunch designed to catch players up faster? It seems both goals got horribly mixed and the end product is an overall loss of power without compensation to anyone and new players still have to climb over the horrendously large mountain that existed before.

I definitely would prefer on ZOS's end, more than anything if I can't have my XP converted to CP, a much more heavily loaded catch-up system for newer players. I'm capped on CP right now if only barely and it's taken me 4 years to do so. The issue with the new system is yes the curve is lowered but if the effective XP required to reach 810 is equivalent to reach 1750 then the system has literally done nothing to help newer players. (Which I believe it takes 324,000,000 EXP to reach 810 in the newer system down from 387,009,530 but then still requires a total of 700,000,000 to reach 1750 which is roughly the same power break point for current 810. Which means we haven't actually helped new players.)

It will take 100,802,000 XP to reach 810 in the new system (195,158,000 in the old system)

It will take 176,789,000 XP to reach 1100 in the new system (which is where you are maxed for your role) (422,193,000 in the old system)

It will take 435,063,000 XP to reach 1800 in the new system (this "mythic" min/max cap...) ((1,235,615,000 in the old system)

So, 1800 in the "new" system is like 1100 in the old system.

It's going to go so quickly with leveling with the changes that a month afterwards we will never hear of it again.

Kittytravel wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

It has never before been readjusted, and shouldn't be now. The 9 or 10 times that the CP level cap has changed have always made it so that people who were not capped needed less XP to get their CP than those who did it before them. The CP XP scale has changed 9 or 10 times already with no adjustments. The reason for the cap was, and still is mind you, to allow people to catch up who have started later. If we start adjusting peoples CP by XP that catch up mechanic will basically be undone.

^This. Even after switching from Vet ranks to CP and then increasing the cap further, it didn't happen, so why now? Not only new players but also returning players will be intimidated less by seeing people lower than the cap. I took two long breaks (if you count the comeback today it's three), and I'm glad they didn't just convert the exp amount even tho I hit 700 CP before my last break. And those other two breaks made my grind go down the drain just the same because I remember soft cap being around 400 CP if I'm not wrong ('it's been 5 years or so), and two years later when I came back, people who knew nothing about dungeons or trials or the ice staff's taunt were above 400 CP just by doing quests and dailies.

When switching from Vet Ranks to CP three things occurred.
1. Players were awarded CP based on their highest Veteran Rank character. The cap at the time of switching was 510. The formula used was (2.5 x VR) with a minimum scaling of x10. That meant if you were VR16 you would get 40 Champion Points. This is only part of what happened though.
2. Players were awarded CP Ranks correlated to their VR Rank at a x10 Value. Well what did this mean? This meant that after the initial 2.5 x VR rank if they weren't at the appropriate correlated CP level then that value was scrapped and they were set to the other level. In this case if you were VR 6 with 1 CP at the time of transitioning you would be set to CP60.
3. Players were afforded one year before the transition period to farm CP without the cap. This meant that if you were VR16 and you farmed to CP 200 you would be awarded your initial 40 (2.5 x 16) CP points in addition to the 200 you already had farmed. You would end with an effective CP level of 240.

The reason all that matters is because people had clear time and unimpeded preparation to reach an equivalent power structure. A year is a lot of time given.

In regards to your other point of 'when increasing the cap further'. Are you seriously going to equate a 30 CP jump every 3 months to a 940 CP jump?... Not only that but the EXP curve wasn't changed when the 30 caps were introduced, it was still the same curve. No one was deprived of any numerical XP value; the cap simply went up. Yes the boost of enlightened experience was raised by that's an exclusive catch up mechanic. My 5,000,000 EXP was still 5,000,000 when the cap increased.

Finally to point out the fallacy in your final point. "Less intimidated by people lower than the cap." "If we adjust peoples CP by XP". First of all any new player with any modicum of sense coming into a new MMO that's been around for 7 years and being told cap is 3600 and seeing no other players at that cap? They would leave. I would leave. They don't know the information, game, or history. They have no frame of reference beyond "Wow the max level is 3,600 and almost no one is even close... that's too much time to invest." If you are legitimately telling me that you'd join a game and see an outrageously high max level that almost none of the player base is at and not think twice about continuing it I'm going to outright call you a liar.

Second of all, it takes twice the amount of time now to reach 1750 than it did 810! It takes 3.7x the amount of time to reach 3600 than it did to reach 810. If this was about catching new players up then ZOS did an extremely poor job making it seem that way; all it seems to me is an extended CP grind that will scare new people away.

As I've stated before; if I can have a valid reason for XP not being converted over and it has to be expunged from the system then sure go for it. But the only valid reason I've heard is 'Well it helps new players catch up' despite every single shred of evidence pointing otherwise that the new system does not in fact do that.

Kittytravel wrote: »

@tmbrinks

I accept the correction on the curve changing for the raised 30 caps but I can see we both agree that it is hardly comparable to it increasing to the 1800 mark.

camrenis wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not even so amazing that people don't get it. It's not even that people are really concerned about the "time they lost" or lost power due to 'lost CP's."

If they had started us on the new system with 80% of the CP's, you'd have room to ***. They're not doing that.

You're not losting anything.

The complaint isn't that it took longer to get to X CP's, it's that it won't take someone else as long, which is childish and asinine. Them leveling faster won't somehow make you less strong.

It's not worth less in terms of placement value. It's worth the same.

Someone that made $100k in 1980 vs someone that made $100k in 2020 both have $100K. 1980 guy doesn't get to demand $300k more because it was harder to earn. Every dollar both make in 2020 from that point on is worth the same.

Here's another way to look at it, since people are so scared to death of someone else actually being allowed to have a capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game:

If you at your current CP's and Frickin' New Guy at 10 CP's play enough to earn the same number of XP's per day, FNG is always going to be behind you, right up until you're both finally at cap.

Be glad they reduced the curve at all, or worse, made it even harder to grind above XXX level.

You don't complain about "lost XP" during a 2X XP event if you don't get to play for one day, vs the people that do. This is NO different.

[snip]

Can I ask how many champion points you have?

To respond to your analogy: how would you feel if all of a sudden that the $400,000 you had in your bank account had its value slashed by 50%? Your analogy works over a long time scale caused by the gradual devaluation of a currency over time, but what is happening here is a sudden, much more noticeable change. Also, we are not asking for our cumulative experienced gained to be increased as your analogy suggests. We are asking for it to not be reduced, which is effectively is what is being done by keeping us with the same amount of champion points.

Lastly, telling us to 'quit [snip] is a very closed minded comment. To keep as many people as happy as possible there needs to be constructive discussion around the changes, not a single sided argument and that's the end of the story.

[Edited to remove Profanity]

Kittytravel wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not even so amazing that people don't get it. It's not even that people are really concerned about the "time they lost" or lost power due to 'lost CP's."

If they had started us on the new system with 80% of the CP's, you'd have room to ***. They're not doing that.

You're not losting anything.

The complaint isn't that it took longer to get to X CP's, it's that it won't take someone else as long, which is childish and asinine. Them leveling faster won't somehow make you less strong.

It's not worth less in terms of placement value. It's worth the same.

Someone that made $100k in 1980 vs someone that made $100k in 2020 both have $100K. 1980 guy doesn't get to demand $300k more because it was harder to earn. Every dollar both make in 2020 from that point on is worth the same.

Here's another way to look at it, since people are so scared to death of someone else actually being allowed to have a capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game:

If you at your current CP's and Frickin' New Guy at 10 CP's play enough to earn the same number of XP's per day, FNG is always going to be behind you, right up until you're both finally at cap.

Be glad they reduced the curve at all, or worse, made it even harder to grind above XXX level.

You don't complain about "lost XP" during a 2X XP event if you don't get to play for one day, vs the people that do. This is NO different.

[snip]

1. If [snip] as you put it is what a conversation is then I'd wholly suggest you avoid forums for the rest of your life and probably other people as well.
2. Your example makes no sense at all as real world economies fluctuate the value of goods and services based on a variety of factors outside the heavily controlled world of a MMO game. Drawing real world conclusions from an environment with hundreds of outward factors isn't even close to equatable to a environment that is dependent on two. XP and CP. It's just plain disingenuous of you.
3. Yes, leveling them faster does make us less strong because the method being used front load EXP to earlier CP levels while removing XP from the original pool. If you are CP 870 you will still be CP 870 in the new system, losing about 1/3rd your total power currently. You will need to level back up to get to where you were, this isn't an opinion it is an absolute fact from all the test parses have done from PTS to Live. If CP 870 in the old system takes 500,000,000 EXP to get to in the new system it might only take 3,000,000. And then despite you reaching that 5 mil status you are just reverted to the 3 mil and the EXP you had is lost.
4. "Capable character without putting 8000 hours into the game". Last I checked it takes roughly double the amount of time (by XP point) to reach CP 1750 that it did to reach CP810. So... no time has actually been given.
5. And finally your 'lost XP' argument doesn't even stand. If that was the case I'd be here saying 'I didn't play for 3 months where is my free XP?" but I'm not. You literally have purposely misconstrued an entire valid line of logical thinking and twisted it into the facade of some screaming child. I'm not asking for any amount of XP I haven't earned. I'm asking for my pool of total XP to not be diluted over some false claim that it will allow lower CP players to catch up.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Regarding #1:
The new curve is most definitely a catch up mechanic (although a weak one).
It does mean that newer players close the CP gap to longer term players faster than they would under the old curve.
Consider several players at this point in time, at 0CP, 400CP, 800CP, 1200CP, 1600CP for instance. So everyone starts 400CP apart.
Lets say that all players play and gain xp at the same rate over the next unspecified period, and they all gain 50mil XP.

So under the new xp curve, all of the gaps are smaller in terms of CP than they would have been under the old curve.
Thus it would appear to me that the change in xp curve will function as a catch up mechanic, albeit not actually a very big one, and certainly nothing to the degree of your last suggestion.
(Note: there are some specific CP ranges where the gap doesn’t always get smaller in CP2.0 for the same xp due the point the 1.5 multiplier starts applying being in a different place under the two curves, but this corrects back to smaller gains eventually as more xp/cp is gained)

I'll start off with thanks for such a detailed reply! It's something the devs would probably want to see instead of having to mull it over themselves.

So while it's true that the gaps are smaller the catch up mechanic doesn't work as well here due to the integral difference in active-useful level.
In the current system that is considered to be CP810; in the new system after their most recent changes to stars it's CP 1750. So from those who have attempted to test (which is hard to do since they won't provide a max-level template) they have averaged that the DPS you can get now at CP810 is equivalent to what you could get at CP1750. These are very rough averages from what I have read so take them lightly but I think we all know that we are losing power since the system itself is changing and climbing higher.

So while the curve does shrink the effective level of 150 million EXP does not; in the current system that's capped while in the new system (assuming XP carryover) an 810 would be moved to CP1006 (using your table). This is better for them because it does put them closer to their original level of power but they are still 744 CP from where they were.

So despite being a 'catchup' you end up needing 250 million EXP to get around CP1719 and your finally back where you essentially already were before the change happened. Now I'm not asking to be moved for free to where my DPS, Stats, and Capabilities won't change. That's part of the game, stuff gets nerfed. That's an MMO.

But the EXP values I earned shouldn't be diluted as it's time I spent that is accurately recorded within the game, to disregard that (to me) is to disregard my time spent playing your game for the past few years.

Firstly, thanks, I enjoy having these sort of discussions and seeing the thoughts of others like yourself, especially when they also give well presented or detailed replies so I do try to do the same when I provide my own. Leads to walls of text though...

Anyway, to me the fundamental problem here is that our 810CP is now not the same power level as 810Cp will be in the new system leading to players at this level (810CP) feeling a power loss, but this is a separate issue to the perceived xp loss or dilution. However, this problem causes players to seek out ways that they could be back closer to their original power, and the idea of carrying over xp is something that will bring them back closer. Which I understand, but to me its not a "good" fix and is just masking the actual cause of the issue - the sudden shift in how much power we get from our CP and over what range we obtain that power ie: power gained over 0-810CP is now instead gained over 0 - ~1750/2000CP)

(also FYI my table isn't the carryover equivalents, rather its the CP players would get to if there was no carryover and then they gained xp from that point under either of the two systems, as a comparison)

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Now, on to your last suggestion. Beyond being a much stronger catch up mechanic, how is this any different than simply lowering the xp required for those first however many hundred xp?
Its basically like lowering the requirement for all CP under CP1000 by whatever amount the multiple is. So its basically the equivalent of changing the curve, just in a different way.
It would however be a change that is more targeted towards the front end of CP, so in that sense it would be a better catch up mechanic than the current way the curve has been changed.

Because you didn't lower the XP required; you upped Enlightenment for lower level CP players which is an true catch-up mechanic. I'm not losing on any XP I've acquired. I'm not being told "Hey, Timmy just joined the game so since he's behind you we are gonna shrink your XP pool from the 150 million you've accumulated to 50 million so it's easier for him to catch up and also you need to level up 800 more times."

But adding extra enlightenment for those under CP is functionally the same as lowering the requirement to get that CP.
ie:
If we keep the curve unchanged (ie as per CP1.0) but add an extra always on enlightenment multiplier of say 2x for while under CP1000.
Under CP1.0 a player needs ~ 336mil xp to reach CP1000
Lets say for examples sake under these conditions a player does say some group of a quests, with a total nominal total xp reward of 118mil xp gained in doing so. The enlightenment causes this to be doubled to 336mil xp, so the player is now CP1000.

Alternatively, we don't add enlightenment and instead change the xp requirements to get to CP1000, halving the required xp to reach CP1000 (like lowering the curve for a section of CP). So the xp required to reach CP1000 is lowered to 118mil.
Again, lets say under these conditions a player does the exact same set of quests as above, so they earn 118mil xp.
They are now CP1000.

So both cases give the same resulting CP for the same set of gameplay performed. Sure the total xp gained isn't the same but thats just a means to an end - which is CP. This is what I mean by using enlightenment as an extra factor is functionally identical to lower the xp curve by the same proportion in terms of the resulting CP gain.
The only difference is a perception difference of how much total xp was "earned". The relationship between CP earned, and hence power, to gameplay time/effort etc is the same.

The difference in this example here in comparison to what has actually been implemented, is that ZOS have lowered the xp requirement across the entire CP range, not just the first part.
This could effectively be viewed as adding extra enlightenment for all players that is on at all times (with the amount varying somewhat depending on your current CP amount). This is why even though I said it is technically a catch up mechanic, I agree it isn't actually a very strong one.

That's the difference to me; one is a targeted move to actually address the issue at the root which is older players being so far ahead of newer ones. The change doesn't actually affect older players at all since they aren't having their total XP diluted nor are they losing power; newer players are gaining power at an exponentially faster rate but at the same measurements that the veterans had to do so. This is a very loose and poor analogy I shall preface with that.

Xanathar has 60,000 Gold. This is considered the 'average' amount of gold in his game for a veteran player to have.
Jones just joined the game and he has 1,000 Gold.

Instead of adding a catchup mechanic for Jones to make the other 59,000 Gold we decide that 1,000 is the new standard and Xanathars gold is now only worth 5,000 gold while also adding a mechanic that will make Jones get 4,000 more gold as he levels to max cap but we didn't change any of the store prices. That's roughly what is happening here; the gold is XP and is being removed from the game because it's deemed problematic for players to catch up to. The CP points however still cost the same amount, 1 level, but now the guy who could have bought anything he wanted with 60k has to pick and choose while new players haven't actually gained or lost anything. Xanathar will still continue earning gold at his higher level at a faster rate due to more play options. Jones will still never catch up unless Xanathar stops playing for a long haitus.

By frontloading the earliest CP levels Xanathar doesn't lose anything, he doesn't care if Jones is given a new system that will give him 59,000 Gold as he levels up. By the time Jones gets to Xanathars level Xanathar will have made another 120,000. But that type of catch up system doesn't inconveniance or take away from anyone; it only helps the new player reach a baseline state that will allow him to join Xanathar as a fellow player.

There are two parts to this analogy
1) Using xp as a currency to obtain CP points
2) Using CP points to obtain an effect/star etc

In the first case, they have lowered the "store" price of the item Xanathar wants to buy. Sure he now only has 5000 gold, but he can obtain the same amount of CP points for that 5000 gold under the new system as he could with his 60000 gold under the old system.

The problem that makes it seem like Xanathar now has less choice comes from the second conversion of CP points into effects. He can no longer get as much "effect" for the same amount of CP points.
This is where ZOS have changed things as well. We get less effect for each CP point we earn, partially due to the vertical cap being higher, and partially due to some of our power being shifted to base stats. But this isn't a problem with the XP to CP curve, but rather this is due to the change in what value/effect/power we now get per CP point, and hence I don't think doing things like converting CP based on XP is the right place to be looking to address the issue. Rather, we need to be able to get to the same (or a similar) power level for the same amount of CP earned.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

And, in terms of the context of the primary question of this thread - whether CP should be adjusted to fit the new xp curve – the exact same argument to adjust existing players CP could be made under your suggested enlightenment change.

Consider:
I am going to use a simplified version to make this a bit simpler for me to calculate, sp lets say players under CP1000 get an extra 4x XP boost at all times, as some form of extra enlightenment, but the xp curve remains unchanged.
So instead of requiring 336,628,454 XP to get to CP1000 (CP1.0 xp value), it would now effectively only take 336,628,454/4 = 84,157,113 XP of XP rewards, ie: the first 84,157,113 XP a player earns gets multiplied by 4.

But what if I was already CP1000. I could say:
I have already earned 336,628,454 XP.
But, if the new enlightenment change existed when I earned that, the first 84,157,113 XP of it would have been multiplied by 4.
So I should actually have and extra 3*84,157,113 = 252,471,339 XP
So I should actually have 336,628,454 + 252,471,339 = 589,099,793 XP which would mean I should actually be CP1273 under the old curve.
Does that sound right? Should I be “given” that extra 252 mil xp, because that’s what I would have if the new xp boon system existed when I earned my xp?
Considered like this, it doesn’t seem to me to make sense to be added. And yet, this is exactly the same thing that asking for a CP conversion to the new xp/cp curve is asking for.

I don't agree with calling the CP conversion the same thing as a catch up mechanic. Games introduce catch up mechanics to new players all the time but the older players never receive compensation; and that is exactly my issue here. If this was a catch up mechanic targeting new players I'd be perfectly fine. If they told me "Hey we are only shrinking the first 800 levels" I'd say "Well I already spent my 8 months at level 800 and I'm not losing any of my power."

In this scenario though I am losing power; as many parses have attested from PTS to live you do not acquire the same amount of power as currently exists at 810. This is why I view it as a 'punishment' to players who have already hit the original cap and their banked XP is essentially being wiped. Yes we can climb another 400-600 levels to get where we were but it doesn't change that we essentially were shirked time getting there without a good valid reason (and yes that is all I want; a good and valid reason for why it's necessary to not carry over XP values. And the 'catch-up' reason isn't a good or valid one.)

This is the same issue as above - CP points not providing the same power/effect as before.

I think at its most fundamental aspect we are looking at this is slightly different ways:

We both agree that we are losing power (the effect of CP) that we had gained by spending gameplay time/effort. The difference comes from having different perceived measures of gameplay time/effort.

You are measuring your gameplay time/effort in terms of total XP earned, and under the curve change, depending on how you look at it, it can be perceived that this "total xp" number is being reduced as you are being shifted down the curve to keep CP the same, so then you come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (XP) is being reduced, and my power is as well. The two are related via the CP system, so if there was a conversion to keep my perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort the same, this would give me more CP, which would restore some of my lost power.

I am measuring my gameplay time/effort in terms of CP earned, and so don't perceive that I am "losing" anything in the XP/CP regard. So I come to the conclusion:
My perceived indicator of gameplay time/effort (CP), has stayed the same but I have lost power, so the solution is that my CP points need to provide more power/effect (like they used to) as this would restore some of my lost power.

Hence why I said I think the fundamental issue is what Joy identified.

Yeah I can see that we are both essentially targeting the same fundamental from both sides just with a different method. On my side I think that the lost power can be supplemented by using XP to target CP level and allow players more leeway in the method that they earned whereas on your end fundamentally the system is punishing to a lower level player as there are too many essential combat passives that drive the players into a corner without them in most aspects of game play. Overall the system was designed without any actual forethought into the end product of what they wanted it to be it seems; did they want the endless grind of levels or was the crunch designed to catch players up faster? It seems both goals got horribly mixed and the end product is an overall loss of power without compensation to anyone and new players still have to climb over the horrendously large mountain that existed before.

I definitely would prefer on ZOS's end, more than anything if I can't have my XP converted to CP, a much more heavily loaded catch-up system for newer players. I'm capped on CP right now if only barely and it's taken me 4 years to do so. The issue with the new system is yes the curve is lowered but if the effective XP required to reach 810 is equivalent to reach 1750 then the system has literally done nothing to help newer players. (Which I believe it takes 324,000,000 EXP to reach 810 in the newer system down from 387,009,530 but then still requires a total of 700,000,000 to reach 1750 which is roughly the same power break point for current 810. Which means we haven't actually helped new players.)

It will take 100,802,000 XP to reach 810 in the new system (195,158,000 in the old system)

It will take 176,789,000 XP to reach 1100 in the new system (which is where you are maxed for your role) (422,193,000 in the old system)

It will take 435,063,000 XP to reach 1800 in the new system (this "mythic" min/max cap...) ((1,235,615,000 in the old system)

So, 1800 in the "new" system is like 1100 in the old system.

It's going to go so quickly with leveling with the changes that a month afterwards we will never hear of it again.

Any chance I can get your source for the numbers?
Other than that; I absolutely don't deny that a month afterwards we won't hear of it again. Not because it will go quickly but because it'll be too late to debate any of this at that point.

At the casual rate I played it took me 4 years to reach 810 (the 195 mil mark) so it'll be another 4 years and some change of me playing at my same rate to reach the 1800 mark (435 mil) . I don't have 4-6 hours to play a game every day. The problem is those very numbers beat out the general argument everyone is using of "XP shouldn't carry over because the goal is to lower the curve for new players to catch up." Okay but the total they need is still growing. They still can't catch up. In a month everyone will be CP 1100 and I'll still be CP 850 or 860. Another month and everyone will be CP1200 and I'll be CP900. And that new player that comes to the game and sees everyone else at CP1800 and he's at Level 23? He'll just quit.

Using those numbers I earned an average of 133,669 EXP everyday for 4 years. This of course doesn't include days that I couldn't play, only had time to jump on for daily reward, or other stuff. So all I have to do is earn another 228,945 every single day for four years to get to level 1800 to be where I was at 810. And my issue with that is none of it even begins to deal with any new players. They still need those exact values even with Enlightenment. You would need one hell of a catch up EXP system to make any of this resemble some sense of 'new player friendly' leveling system.

Kittytravel wrote: »

Grandesdar wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

It has never before been readjusted, and shouldn't be now. The 9 or 10 times that the CP level cap has changed have always made it so that people who were not capped needed less XP to get their CP than those who did it before them. The CP XP scale has changed 9 or 10 times already with no adjustments. The reason for the cap was, and still is mind you, to allow people to catch up who have started later. If we start adjusting peoples CP by XP that catch up mechanic will basically be undone.

^This. Even after switching from Vet ranks to CP and then increasing the cap further, it didn't happen, so why now? Not only new players but also returning players will be intimidated less by seeing people lower than the cap. I took two long breaks (if you count the comeback today it's three), and I'm glad they didn't just convert the exp amount even tho I hit 700 CP before my last break. And those other two breaks made my grind go down the drain just the same because I remember soft cap being around 400 CP if I'm not wrong ('it's been 5 years or so), and two years later when I came back, people who knew nothing about dungeons or trials or the ice staff's taunt were above 400 CP just by doing quests and dailies.

When switching from Vet Ranks to CP three things occurred.
1. Players were awarded CP based on their highest Veteran Rank character. The cap at the time of switching was 510. The formula used was (2.5 x VR) with a minimum scaling of x10. That meant if you were VR16 you would get 40 Champion Points. This is only part of what happened though.
2. Players were awarded CP Ranks correlated to their VR Rank at a x10 Value. Well what did this mean? This meant that after the initial 2.5 x VR rank if they weren't at the appropriate correlated CP level then that value was scrapped and they were set to the other level. In this case if you were VR 6 with 1 CP at the time of transitioning you would be set to CP60.
3. Players were afforded one year before the transition period to farm CP without the cap. This meant that if you were VR16 and you farmed to CP 200 you would be awarded your initial 40 (2.5 x 16) CP points in addition to the 200 you already had farmed. You would end with an effective CP level of 240.

The reason all that matters is because people had clear time and unimpeded preparation to reach an equivalent power structure. A year is a lot of time given.