Why is there so much disagreement on what is "best," among the community?

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  • Bradyfjord
    Bradyfjord
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    To me, what works best depends on how I play. I've tried builds that others have made, and I don't do well with them. I believe this is because I don't play like those who make the builds.

    The important thing to know about your build is what you want to do with it. To have strengths, a build will have some weaknesses.
  • ZaroktheImmortal
    ZaroktheImmortal
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    People will always have differing opinions. Personally as far as healers go I love my templar healer. The class just feels built for healers with the abilities you get as a templar.
  • JinMori
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    The overall performance of a class depends on the type of content mostly, necro is strong, it provides dps boosts for the whole group while not providing the best dps themselves, but they make up for it, by increasing everyone's dps, but they are also terrible to play mostly because 2 of their most important dps skills are awful.

    Blastbones and siphon basically.
  • Pencisl2
    Pencisl2
    The biggest issue with finding an agreement between "content creators / Influencers" as to what is BIS for every build, class, etc is that each player is playing with uncontrollable variables.

    Lets look at a few examples.
    Alcast a few years ago was widely known as the go to for builds, yet for beginners, he is not really beginner friendly. His builds also are not very ping/desync forgiving.

    Zynode and Hack on the other hand tend to make builds that are beginner friendly, or hold up to unstable rural or oceanic connections.

    I know a guy in my guild here in Aus, uses a modified Hack Volcanic rune build and pulls 50kdps just using 1 bar on his sorc, and has a templar build that uses 1 bar and pulls 50k+ for his templar without LA.

    As someone who's desync is stupid due to living in a barracks in rural Aus, builds where LAs are required are useless.

    When it comes to sets, sets that require LAs to proc the 5 pce, I will avoid because of the desync and ping issues. For me, I end up experimenting with off-meta or "trash" sets, and end up being able to compete better with them, than with the "meta" sets.

    If everyone played with 5 ping, and no desync, the community might have a general consensus, however as it stands, we have KBM, vs Controller, (PS vs Xbox 1, 360, Xbox Elite 1 vs Elite 2). Low ping, high ping, low desync, high desync, injuries / disabilities that prevent certain fine motor skills, etc. There is never going to be a one size fits all approach, and thus I use the "influencers" as a source of information as to how the sets work, and then go off and theory craft my own builds that work for me.

    I wonder if a lot of templar builds assume no weaving as to follow them exactly means your buffs will fall off half-way through your recommended 4-5 jabs.

    In fact, the skinny build for magplar has so many dots that they practically run out before you have a chance to cast them all.
  • Pencisl2
    Pencisl2
    Sorry for double-posting, but I see no way to delete my above one to remedy that.

    I have another for the list:
    "this game has so much build diversity."


    but yet all stam setups are master's 2h for aoe, set bonus 2h otherwise, and either maelstrom or master's bow backbar.

    the only reason you have the bow backbar is for endless hail on maelstrom and master's with poison injection plus "the other morph of volley." the rest of the back bar is just a place to put your buffs so they don't clutter your front bar.

    you COULD use dw or another stam weapon backbar, but you just replace volley with "whatever the local equivalent of volley is" and add in the damage over time attack if using the master's.

    for sets you use any "trial" sets that give the 5% damage buff on the 3-peice.


    all mag setups are set bonus destro front bar, maelstrom destro backbar with wall of elements and buff/dot storage.

    in almost all setups you do "lay on as many dots as possible" then "light attack weave with a spammable" into "repeat."

    for sets you go fgd + something for crit.


    if you're in pvp or you are tanking, you run snb backbar or destro backbar regardless of setup.


    Also, from apparently reading the forums, the balance changes wildly every two months so maybe that's what's meant by "diversity."
  • Starlight_Whisper
    Starlight_Whisper
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    Multiple what's best options now
  • Starlight_Whisper
    Starlight_Whisper
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    Ermiq wrote: »
    I think this phenomenon is called 'balance'.
    Honestly, ESO actually has a pretty good balance, imho, and all those contradictory opinions prove that.
    Sure, there're some issues, but in general, when there's no one single BiS Meta opinion that everyone could agree with, than the game is actually doing fine balance-wise.

    😂 This was beautiful statement❤️
  • Rezdayn
    Rezdayn
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    Never expect anything from a online community... including this one...

    [snip]

    [edited for profanity]
    Edited by ZOS_Lunar on February 24, 2021 1:00PM
  • Alurria
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    I used two different guides to come up with what works for my play style. Alcast and deltia . I tried using each one alone, mind you I solo and don't do group content except for world boss or public delves. I had to tweak each one to fit my needs. Which is fine at least I had a starting point. The gear I have is dropped or purchased from guild vendors. Mother's sorrow , I have the briar heart set also. But wanted to be more of a caster, mag/warden soloers. So far it's working for me, I have a few more tweaks. I have almost a one bar build, but that back bar is important against overland world bosses.

    You may have to play around with your build to find what suits you. I love that aspect because there are many combos you can choose from to tailor to your specific play style. Forget the noise and play what you want to play and find a style that works for you by trying different skills and gear sets. Good luck have fun.
  • GreenhaloX
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    Well.. if you are a veteran of the game and have been playing for a quite awhile, you will know what works and doesn't for you. I never follow what others consider to be BiS or Meta. I just use what sets, skills, rotations that work for me. Really, BiS or meta are just subjective as viewpoints. There is not really a best, but rather what is good to use or have; as practically there are so many different variation of sets and builds that work well and just fine.
  • Varana
    Varana
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    Pencisl2 wrote: »
    but yet all stam setups are master's 2h for aoe, set bonus 2h otherwise, and either maelstrom or master's bow backbar.
    ...
    all mag setups are set bonus destro front bar, maelstrom destro backbar with wall of elements and buff/dot storage.

    in almost all setups you do "lay on as many dots as possible" then "light attack weave with a spammable" into "repeat."

    for sets you go fgd + something for crit.

    if you're in pvp or you are tanking, you run snb backbar or destro backbar regardless of setup.

    I don't get it - at the start of the thread, you complain that there's "too much disagreement" on what's best.

    Yet now, you quite correctly show that there is widespread consensus on exactly these issues.

    So what is it?
  • hexnotic
    hexnotic
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    just look at eso logs, what class is the top parse etc. that will give you the answer of what is “best”.

    since this game is marketed as “play how you want” a lot of players end up downplaying the meta here, because they perceive the metagame as being told how to build their character, or as an unoriginal copy and paste.

    this makes me sad because imo the meta is just a tool used to clear end game content in a reasonable amount of time, and if you don’t want to do that then you don’t need to pay attention to meta at all. but players still have negativity towards the meta when they feel like they deserve to access end game content without playing a meta build. it really doesn’t make much sense at all, and i hope we get this sorted as a community one day! :D
  • svendf
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    Varana wrote: »

    I don't get it - at the start of the thread, you complain that there's "too much disagreement" on what's best.

    Yet now, you quite correctly show that there is widespread consensus on exactly these issues.

    So what is it?

    How I get this. OP point´s out all more or less uses the same kind of builds/setup and in the end disagree on everything.

    It´s like people agree on disagreeing, but use same builds anyway or ver close to,

    So! If that´s what OP means I do agree.

    There are only one type of conntent creators or build creators I trost and they are those, who put their neck out. Many of, who are streamers as well and there are consequences added to it.

    Any forum worrior can type annything without consequences and include their agenda :)
    Edited by svendf on February 24, 2021 2:57PM
  • Ryath_Waylander
    Ryath_Waylander
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    Because humans.....
  • Scardan
    Scardan
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    End game builds and majority of solo builds are the same. Google for magcro solo for example. Same ghost, same spamable, same bis setup and relying on potions instead of Degeneration and inner Light.
    Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.
  • Inaya
    Inaya
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    In my opinion, ESO gives you many more ways to play than other MMO's. There are more builds that are viable because there are so many different playstyles that are viable.

    I also don't think consesus on best or BIS is a good thing because as others said it indicates a balance problem.
  • magnusthorek
    magnusthorek
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    I had my share of.... issues, with elitism in the past that made me stop playing for something around 5y. I almost died, mostly because of the imposed stress (y otras cositas más) and now, I have to live to the consequences of affected health.

    When I finally returned, I forgot how to play and even fighting a simple Dolmen, not a fancy Geyser or Harrowstorm, mind you, was enough to trigger symptoms, forcing me to stop, breathe and only then, sometimes, continue.

    I was mediocre. And as the vast majority of players in this boat, I went after ready-to-use builds. I'm not ashamed of admitting that, but unlike many players, I didn't go blindly to them. I tried many different builds, tried combining information from 3-4 sources but in the end, the so-called BiS/meta gear wasn't working for me.

    So I screwed with elitists jerks' opinion, made up my own combo and now I'm happy, happy with 72k on 21M dummy with an effective 50-60k on trials.

    It's not perfect, it's not optimized (and I'm sure I could squeeze at least 12kextra if not for the 200ms ping I have) and some "famous" players might even twist their noses but I am happy with the results and this is what should matter. Are you happy? Are you having fun playing the game? If you're happy, that's all that matters. It's a game, not a job. You don't have to do what others tell you to do hoping they'll throw a stinky bone for your to chew, wagging your tail.
    I am the very model of a scientist Salarian, I've studied species Turian, Asari, and Batarian.
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Lots of reasons.
    • ESO changes wildly from patch to patch. What is best one patch might be terrible the next. Anything written in say 2019, not that long ago, will be totally obsolete. With so many changes, it's hard to keep track of every single one and thus many outdated opinions persist.
    • In PvE, all that really matters to make a class good is what they output on a target dummy. So if wardens don;t do that well, they will stink according to people who PvE, meanwhile the class has been top tier in PvP since the day it launched. Couple this with point 1, and you get wild fluctuations of what's good/bad.
    • In PvP, people who don;t challenge themselves generally will not appreciate the weaknesses that certain classes have and overestimate their strengths.
    • Many things are only conditionally good. Snipe is probably one of the strongest skills in the game if you want to stand 40 yards away and just blast away at a player who is fighting other people. But most people who rely on this skill in a 1v1 lose badly because it takes quite a bit of experience to use it effectively in that situation.
    • What's good PvP (speed, defense, mobility, multi-functional skills, burst potential, cloak/streak, reflect/absorb, etc.) is often irrelevant in PvE (everything but DPS)
    • What is considered "mandatory" changes from patch to patch. When I first PvEd, nobody slotted a shield and nobody was a vampire. One year later, every PvE content creator on youtube was a vampire for the extra 10% regen and said one bar slot had to have shield and was a huge reason magicka was favored. Then shields somehow became unnecessary again and vampire irrelevant because it's skillset did not output high enough DPS
  • Gundug
    Gundug
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    What is best in life? To crush the enemy, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
  • amm7sb14_ESO
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    GreenhaloX wrote: »
    Well.. if you are a veteran of the game and have been playing for a quite awhile, you will know what works and doesn't for you. I never follow what others consider to be BiS or Meta. I just use what sets, skills, rotations that work for me. Really, BiS or meta are just subjective as viewpoints. There is not really a best, but rather what is good to use or have; as practically there are so many different variation of sets and builds that work well and just fine.

    Agreed.

    Meta / BIS is wholly unnecessary, as basically all vet content can be cleared without it. Maybe you need it for leaderboards or something, idk, that stuff has 0 appeal to me.

    But playing through vet content, including DLC and HM, doesn't require BIS or meta setups to complete. I know, because I've done it. I have 0 BIS or meta builds, and *all of my characters have vet clears ranging from DLC HM dungeons to trials

    That said, I avoid meta like the plague. Metas are the unquestionably worst things that ever happen to MMO's
  • amm7sb14_ESO
    amm7sb14_ESO
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    hexnotic wrote: »
    just look at eso logs, what class is the top parse etc. that will give you the answer of what is “best”.

    since this game is marketed as “play how you want” a lot of players end up downplaying the meta here, because they perceive the metagame as being told how to build their character, or as an unoriginal copy and paste.

    this makes me sad because imo the meta is just a tool used to clear end game content in a reasonable amount of time, and if you don’t want to do that then you don’t need to pay attention to meta at all. but players still have negativity towards the meta when they feel like they deserve to access end game content without playing a meta build. it really doesn’t make much sense at all, and i hope we get this sorted as a community one day! :D

    Players DO deserve access to all end game content without meta builds, and posts like this that try to gatekeep content behind a *build* is exactly why people like myself, and so many others, absolutely despise meta and will ensure that I never play a meta build in my entire time in this game.

    It is telling us how to play our own characters, and it is unoriginal copy / paste.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    well all know what's best.. just ask Conan!
    42ca9ae506e93af6b86dd8b6e56412bb.gif
    Its an Genghis Khan quote, on the other hand Conan has never pretended to be an white hat.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Scardan
    Scardan
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    I prefer math to figure out what is best. Damage dealing ? I sit with calculator, comparing skills. Survivability? Same thing. Math do not lie.
    Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    • In PvE, all that really matters to make a class good is what they output on a target dummy. So if wardens don;t do that well, they will stink according to people who PvE, meanwhile the class has been top tier in PvP since the day it launched. Couple this with point 1, and you get wild fluctuations of what's good/bad.

    This part is incorrect. I'm not saying you're wrong; this is a premise that a lot of players in the community subscribe to, but it is a bit more nuanced.

    A lot of players do look at dummy parses and assume that's how well the class and build will perform. Now, parses can be useful for practicing your rotation, and they can be useful for assessing whether a change is an improvement, but you're still testing in a very artificial environment.

    The result is that you will always parse for more than you DPS, which most of the community understands. What a lot of players fail to understand is that your DPS loss when moving from parsing to live is not uniform. It's not just, "your 'real' DPS will be half of your parse," it varies based on the builds.

    Some builds, sets, and even some classes, parse far better than they play.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    It's all relative, and you have to factor in more than one aspect.

    DPS, mobility, suviveability, heals, buffs, single target, aoe, PvE, PvP, etc. all play a factor.

    There is no one "best" class for anything, let alone every playstyle and player or everyone would be running the same thing and having outstanding results.

    You can and can't do anything on any class, any role, all depending on player skill, gear, and setup.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
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  • amm7sb14_ESO
    amm7sb14_ESO
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    Scardan wrote: »
    I prefer math to figure out what is best. Damage dealing ? I sit with calculator, comparing skills. Survivability? Same thing. Math do not lie.

    I prefer to play a game and figure out what is most fun.

    If all I wanted to do was math, I'd go back to school.
  • Nomadic_Atmoran
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    Your mistake was believing that Lucky, Alcast or who ever the other person is somehow represents the consensus among the community. And by far these forums are also a terrible place to get a read on what is actually going on. Most of the people here are either here to complain, offer ideas or flat out because they enjoy arguing with others.
    Edited by Nomadic_Atmoran on February 25, 2021 7:18PM
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  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Pencisl2 wrote: »

    So magblades don't have the self-healing they used to? you're the first to claim they aren't the best in the game for that, even just going by things I have heard today.

    How is it that they can be the fastest and best for clearing aoe grinds like skyreach, but are getting eaten on a normal?

    But what REALLY is absurd is that the theorycrafters who go in depth into class set bonuses for builds, even they can't agree. I don't mean they disagree in the sense that it is down to preference, I mean the best class for doing content for one "influencer" is the worst for another.

    Even bigger irony is all the community seems to agree with what builds are acceptable, as they all seem to use the same skills and set bonuses as each other, but they then disagree on the performance.

    Something like 5 of my top 6 magblade skills got nerfed at once, a couple of years back. Much of that nerfing had to do with self-healing.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »

    I wish I'd "known" you before I made my first character here. Yep, NB - wanted to be a stealth archer similar to Skyrim (without the very op modded bow). Since my previous MMOs were WoW and RIFT, the combat here came as a huge surprise - and it took me about a year to get it figured out (because I'm older, and my reflexes aren't optimal for twitchy combat; nor is my connection since satellite is all I have available).

    So I bought Summerset and made wardens. I did finally get that NB to 50, and I do have a decent grasp of her combat rotation now - but it was painful to begin with, and I still don't really find her fun to play.

    I love my nightblade thief when he sneaks by enemies, as he does almost all the time. I dislike actually fighting with him.
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    Pencisl2 wrote: »
    templar is both the class most suited to healing, but also the worst healer in the game with nothing unique to add; except for the other classes who are also the worst class in the game for healing depending on who you ask.

    This is wild hyperbole, templars have always been great healers, no one would seriously call them the worst.

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