Why is there so much disagreement on what is "best," among the community?

codierussell

This is a pretty loaded question. PVP will always be all over the place as play style has a very large part of what works and what doesn't for you. There is a few setups that tend to be better than a lot of others but I don't think there can ever be a best.

In PVE there is a best. When you look at Alcast's setups they are pretty close to the best in PVE. Since PVE can be essentially reduced to a pile of numbers and equations it is actually relatively easy to find the best or META despite how players feel about it. PVE though can also vary between different content as each fight has unique mechanics that need to be met. But if anyone tells you there isn't a best in PVE they are lying and you probably shouldn't listen to them.

volkeswagon

Irrogance perhaps. It's because there isn't a BEST.

AyaDark

Pencisl2 wrote: »

In other mmos, you usually have a unanimous consensus on what "works" and what does not. Even if the consensus is wrong, it is never questioned.

In here, you have alcast calling nightblade one of the strongest classes, hack calling them thoroughly mediocre, and lucky singularly focused on the ring of the pale order.

Even on the forums, nightblade is simultaneously the top dps in the game and the worst, as well as being both the best and worst at pvp, all depending on who is posting.

necro is somehow top dps but also a buggy, barely functional mess. warden is great at pvp but also one of the worst damage dealers in the game (right up until someone says they are some of the strongest).

templar is both the class most suited to healing, but also the worst healer in the game with nothing unique to add; except for the other classes who are also the worst class in the game for healing depending on who you ask.

ricochet skull is probably the strongest single target ability in the game according to lucky as it often cleaves, but feels terrible to use and apparently has garbage tracking according to reddit.

one bar builds are viable to the point of being able to solo vet dungeons, but skinny seems to have quota on bar swaps.


Can someone please make up their mind?

Answer is really very simple.

I do not like Alcast and his builds. I can do my own and play good.
The same can do a lot of people.

But when you do good build you like to play, may be you do not like to give it to others.
Some times you can not give best build for some Class you do not play.

So what will you do if some one ask you - how to play ? What to do ?

Some times you give him full rotation sets - CP , but if it is some class you do not play or if you do not want to give some build you will say:

This is link - look it - it is Alcast - try it. Becouse you are lazy to show people some thing yourself. Or show some thing really good. Some times people affraid that if they do - it can become META and get huge nerfs - like as example Torug pact in some update when it worked from dots.

TESO is MMO where there is no TOP 1 build based on stats like in a lot of MMO - so you can choose different sets if you know how to use it.

But some people can not. So some appostol to them is needed.

And it is OK.

But next problem we then get - not enough skilled people - that come to you with there Alcast META - that even can not play good - and try to learn you how to play. But you play 10 times better than all of them in sum.

They try to learn you what is better to put on, what tanks "MUST" wear, how you "MUST" or must not light attack and etc..

Then peoples get angry and show them - that they play such bad - that they can easely pass with out them solo.

So a lot of achivments of such META people with such ideas is just: "trained" - and you do not need it aducation from such players and you do not care.
And such META players newer show you a good play or some good video - they always show you Achivments. I do not as example care about achivments - i care about play. How it was - hard - fun skilled and etc. But some people = "Achivment" and nothing more.
So they really dislike when you show them that they are "No need" with there achivments just trained. The same way like you dislike to hear about "mother sorrow" - all the day in some raids.


And such people start to say about top groups that play some kind like this - so they think that they can learn us )) Who even do not care about it. They are really bothersome and annoying.
Some times players from such groups can show that they can do it too. But who cares ? It is not a question or not that skilled player can do it. The no META can do the same on META or NON meta build. But he is more comfortable to play in his build becouse in his game play it is more effective.

As example if you hit 1 target you will use solo target build - if you gather 50 targets - AOE build.

It is really dispute about tastes not about some real builds. So players are not interested to play like some other player want from them.
That is ALL.

So just when you run some DLC or trial - you can hear that you do all wrong - even if you have better DPS, play better, can solo it.
They base it on the: "You do not do it like META". You must do it like some player "you do not like, how he play" wright in some of his video guide. Some times some popular but not enough skilled streamer.



So in real conditions all is OK - based on people builds based on there skill is good for them. And it is correct that people in some builds can solo some thing. Becouse they know what they are doing. Each build is better in some situations and not such good in other situations - each good player knows it.

But some crazy people appears that try to prove - that some builds are perfect. META and etc like talks.
And in some conditions it is really better - but they do not say about other bad sides of it.

So people who play different way do not care - untill to much of them and they becomes too annoying.

Becouse it is OK - when you can not do good DPS or survive and thats why you are not welcome.

But next step it is you are not welcome not becouse you do not do good DPS or do not survive - but becouse you play different - even if you are better in all aspects.

And all the way you will hear about:
"Do you try Mother Sorrow - may be you should try it ? Why do not you do 10 light attacks ? Only 2 and 5 HA. May be you should try it and mother sorrow ?"

They want you turn off annonimouse mode, put some addons that you do not want and that works bad with your addons and etc.

But you can easely see all statistics with combat metrics on site - so - it is not some thing really needed.

I know that as example i am Annonimus 2 in group - and i am only one annonimus in party in top 3 in DPS. And i think all party knows that it is you.

But they want you turn annonimus off - put addons and etc. There is no real need in it.

Just a bad people.

And becouse of all this you start to hate Alcast a little - not becouse some thing is wrong with him. It is just some player you are not interested in, may be he is a good person and etc - but to much of "about him" information - you do not care about - in some raids.

So it is not about sets and what is good or bad - but there are good players, bad players who try to copy paste them, good players who do not ever want to be copy pasted when they see all this and peoples that are just annoying how others "must play" - but who plays not really good.

And they can always use others players popularity just to be annoying - so i think it is not about Alcast or any body else.

It is always bad when some thing is too popular and it becomes abused.

Scardan

Also even content creators does not do all the math. Look at Alcasts solo magcro guide for example, he takes all passives from Psijik Order line for vet Vateshran...using only C

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

I prefer math to figure out what is best. Damage dealing ? I sit with calculator, comparing skills. Survivability? Same thing. Math do not lie.

I prefer to play a game and figure out what is most fun.

If all I wanted to do was math, I'd go back to school.

As you know, tastes differ, fun is subjective and we all play the game. Did you want to argue with me or did you just add an opposite point of view for comparison?

Pencisl2

Varana wrote: »

Pencisl2 wrote: »

but yet all stam setups are master's 2h for aoe, set bonus 2h otherwise, and either maelstrom or master's bow backbar.
...
all mag setups are set bonus destro front bar, maelstrom destro backbar with wall of elements and buff/dot storage.

in almost all setups you do "lay on as many dots as possible" then "light attack weave with a spammable" into "repeat."

for sets you go fgd + something for crit.

if you're in pvp or you are tanking, you run snb backbar or destro backbar regardless of setup.

I don't get it - at the start of the thread, you complain that there's "too much disagreement" on what's best.

Yet now, you quite correctly show that there yis widespread consensus on exactly these issues.

So what is it?

you cut out the top part of my post giving the context.


The disagreement is:
- many people say the game has so much build variety that there can be no agreement on anything (read most of pages 1 and 2 for that)
BUT
- almost everyone uses the same weapons and set bonuses and even use the same skills.

starkerealm

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Your mistake was believing that Lucky, Alcast or who ever the other person is somehow represents the consensus among the community. And by far these forums are also a terrible place to get a read on what is actually going on. Most of the people here are either here to complain, offer ideas or flat out because they enjoy arguing with others.

In the case of Alcast, I can say he's a very knowledgeable player, and also a very opinionated one. His opinions are worth listening to, and there's (usually) solid reasoning backing them up. However, those are his opinions, and while it's a good idea to evaluate them, you probably shouldn't take it as holy writ.

AyaDark

To do all one build calculation takes me 2-4 hour.

No one check and calculates all.

So no one do all calculations for all situations and sets.

So peoples who say about best:
They do nothing, they do not calculate at all.
Do they check different situations, AOE, solo strategy - no.

They may by just hit dummy.

Pencisl2 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Pencisl2 wrote: »

but yet all stam setups are master's 2h for aoe, set bonus 2h otherwise, and either maelstrom or master's bow backbar.
...
all mag setups are set bonus destro front bar, maelstrom destro backbar with wall of elements and buff/dot storage.

in almost all setups you do "lay on as many dots as possible" then "light attack weave with a spammable" into "repeat."

for sets you go fgd + something for crit.

if you're in pvp or you are tanking, you run snb backbar or destro backbar regardless of setup.

I don't get it - at the start of the thread, you complain that there's "too much disagreement" on what's best.

Yet now, you quite correctly show that there yis widespread consensus on exactly these issues.

So what is it?

you cut out the top part of my post giving the context.


The disagreement is:
- many people say the game has so much build variety that there can be no agreement on anything (read most of pages 1 and 2 for that)
BUT
- almost everyone uses the same weapons and set bonuses and even use the same skills.

Nope.
I do not.

The same a lot of people.

We just do not play in groups where 90% of the time we hear about same sets and skills.

"Mother sorrov" oh sorry some bad word already coming out.

So may be you do not see others becouse they do not want to go with your group.

But it do not limit that they exist.

And as example you will not go with party where all the time people say about how lemons are bad and how stupid peoples are who like lemons.

But lemons do exist and they are good.

Even if you think that they are bad and all think so, becouse you walk with hate lemons party.

5_RAGEsMW

Some people are way toooooooooooooooo tanky and still do tons of damage to my medium armor stam nb. Extremely tanky and that puts me off from playing the game. I don't like fighting people with 30k 40k plus health. It's aids. Can we go back to the days when normal people used to use at most 25k health and only tanks 30k plus health? The 2016 meta health to thumbs ration was perfectly balanced. Med was 23k hp, light 19k hp, tanks 30k hp. I miss those days when bad players died in less than 1 second as opposed to never now because they are a werewolf or have 40k hp and all they do is spam defensive skills or run away at the speed of light with wild hunt. If you die to a nigbtblade in today's most tanky meta in eso's history you need to rethink your build or delete the game. The nb already got tons of nerfs in 2019 stop crying. Now that it's coming back to where it once was they want to nerf it again. [snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Bobby_V_Rockit

If everyone agreed on one above all best race/class/role/skill & gear setup, then the game would have three characters. A DD character, a healer character and a tank. Seems lame to me, like others have said, I can’t quite “click” with a lot of streamer skill setups, or I simply don’t like an aspect of their lore (lookin at you Bosmer and Redguard). So I adjust and compensate elsewhere, which usually leads to a different cp distribution and or different gear.

What other MMO has everyone all running the exact same thing as each other?

Scardan

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

What other MMO has everyone all running the exact same thing as each other?

Many. Many MMOs with less sets, build around vertical progression, very group oriented, class=role and people who done math to get best results in this role, according to numbers.

JTD

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

What other MMO has everyone all running the exact same thing as each other?

In most mmorpgs's with a more vertical progression there are those 'best in slot' items. They are they most powerful item for that specific class tied to 'itemlevel'. That doesn't mean people wear them in all encounters, slight variation my apply.

ESO tells us there is no vertical progression in gear in the sense everything is cp160. This doesn't mean there are combinations which bluntly speak outperform others. Tie this in to cp setups and group dynamics/compositions - there is a certain BIS element to it.

A community might not agree but a community sure as hell will find out which combination's are 'best in certain situations'. There is a reason (in a broad sense) for magdd psiroria and ms/medusa are very competitive and relequen for stamdd. And it's fine to say that every set has its use except that it is just not true...

esologs for ESO and raiderIO for WoW give you a good show as to what people are wearing and slotting at 'endgame'. It does not necessary tell about how they play though.

Scardan

starkerealm wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Your mistake was believing that Lucky, Alcast or who ever the other person is somehow represents the consensus among the community. And by far these forums are also a terrible place to get a read on what is actually going on. Most of the people here are either here to complain, offer ideas or flat out because they enjoy arguing with others.

In the case of Alcast, I can say he's a very knowledgeable player, and also a very opinionated one. His opinions are worth listening to, and there's (usually) solid reasoning backing them up. However, those are his opinions, and while it's a good idea to evaluate them, you probably shouldn't take it as holy writ.

I agree. For example, he is wasting skilpoints on Spell orb passive in magcro solo guide, having only channeled acceleration on the backbar, which he do not activate every 10 seconds to gain a stack. Follow the guide blind and you will make same mistake.
Games where you can follow guides blind are PoE (guides there give you even math to proof), Diablo 2, ESO is not one of them.