Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor

Sangwyne · February 2021

PvP players on the forums have been clamoring for Heavy armor to be gutted so that builds utilizing Malacath and proc sets for damage/sustain would no longer have survivability to fall back upon. Well, it seems ZOS has granted their wish, and nuked Heavy armor from orbit: 7% increased magic damage taken, 21% increased roll dodge cost, 7% reduced sprint speed, and 70% increased detection radius, making stealth impossible, alongside nerfs to Heavy armor passives like the armor from Resolve and sustain from Revitalize and Rapid Mending. These nerfs, coupled with the removal of Shadow Ward for block cost and other CP changes, mean the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction; Medium armor may now actually be tankier than Heavy, granting 14% AOE damage reduction, 21% block cost reduction, and all with ZERO drawbacks whatsoever. Yet again, PvP players have managed to get an entire playstyle nerfed, and this time, PvE players will pay the price with longer dungeon queue times as tanks quit or change roles. Enjoy looking forward to the exact same proc sets being (ab)used with the exact same Malacath strategy, only this time it will be on Medium armor, which now provides 14% damage reduction to many attacks in PvE, alongside permablocking from its new block cost reduction passive, along with passives to boost Weapon Damage and Stamina recovery that Heavy armor never had. Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP players on the forums have been clamoring for Heavy armor to be gutted so that builds utilizing Malacath and proc sets for damage/sustain would no longer have survivability to fall back upon. Well, it seems ZOS has granted their wish, and nuked Heavy armor from orbit: 7% increased magic damage taken, 21% increased roll dodge cost, 7% reduced sprint speed, and 70% increased detection radius, making stealth impossible, alongside nerfs to Heavy armor passives like the armor from Resolve and sustain from Revitalize and Rapid Mending. These nerfs, coupled with the removal of Shadow Ward for block cost and other CP changes, mean the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction; Medium armor may now actually be tankier than Heavy, granting 14% AOE damage reduction, 21% block cost reduction, and all with ZERO drawbacks whatsoever. Yet again, PvP players have managed to get an entire playstyle nerfed, and this time, PvE players will pay the price with longer dungeon queue times as tanks quit or change roles. Enjoy looking forward to the exact same proc sets being (ab)used with the exact same Malacath strategy, only this time it will be on Medium armor, which now provides 14% damage reduction to many attacks in PvE, alongside permablocking from its new block cost reduction passive, along with passives to boost Weapon Damage and Stamina recovery that Heavy armor never had. Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor.

I have tested this on the PTS. Heavy is still better than both.

I would recommend that heavy keep it 2 % mitigation per piece but work for magical and physical. It should have a damage penalty per piece instead -3-4% damage done per piece.

Medium should take more magical damage as a penalty and increase its WD per piece to 3-4% up from 2%.

This would make it better for surviving all content whilst making bad for damage.

Rungar · February 2021

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

ApoAlaia · February 2021

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

I have an idea too, I just need to farm PFGD in Medium to make it work /s

relentless_turnip · February 2021

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

I would love to see this work in practice. I haven't yet seen it. 5 1 1 the single pieces basically cancel each other(on a medium build) out the benefit being that you still get the undaunted passive. Besides you are limited by the weights that armor pieces drop in making it pretty restrictive. I look forward to seeing someone do it successfully.

SgtNuttzmeg · February 2021

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

That's the goal but there are many aspects of the armor that encourages 7 piece set ups. For instance the fact that penetration and % dmg increase per piece and have no cap. This is supposedly counter by the inherent flaws of the armor type. Medium only provides extra mitigation against aoes and not single target abilities and % extra martial damage vs light armor however some setups already have the survivability where they don't need to worry about this.

If they want 4/3 setups they need to increase the benefit per piece and cap it at 4 stacks and to change the armor abilities so that all of them are more widely useful and that they only require four pieces to activate.

StarOfElyon · February 2021

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

That's the goal but there are many aspects of the armor that encourages 7 piece set ups. For instance the fact that penetration and % dmg increase per piece and have no cap. This is supposedly counter by the inherent flaws of the armor type. Medium only provides extra mitigation against aoes and not single target abilities and % extra martial damage vs light armor however some setups already have the survivability where they don't need to worry about this.

If they want 4/3 setups they need to increase the benefit per piece and cap it at 4 stacks and to change the armor abilities so that all of them are more widely useful and that they only require four pieces to activate.

So medium armor basically cancels magplars.

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2021

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

honey_badger82 · February 2021

What I am going to try on my imperial templar tank when these changes are released is a 5 med and 2 heavy setup. I currently run that now on the same tank but with different sets than I will need once this mess goes live.
Currently I run warrior poet, twice born star and Selene's. This gives me me near max resistance on my tank bar when standing in my rune and 27k physical on my dps bar, about 29k magic def.

I plan running either torug's pact or almalexias (wpns + jewelry) with Ancient dragonguard. When I wear both monster set pieces it will be Domihaus. When I need to do harder content I will switch to Bloodlord's for chest and swap shoulders or helm to keep my two 5/5 set bonuses. As of now it looks like I will have 29k physical resistance when above 50% health and almost max magic def. Blow 50% I will pretty much be max for both, as long as I stay in my rune.

With 2 block reduction glyphs and one sturdy piece of armor block will cost less than 425 stamina. My return from rune + armor passive + weapon glyph will give me about a 395 a second stamina return while blocking. Bloodlord's will allow me to cast Radiant Ward every 2 seconds for a 12k+ shield.

Using the lover for mundus my pen will still be ok, almost 8k on my 2 hander. I am hoping the increased armor on this setup will offset the loss in mitigation from CP 1.0. As it looks my damage will be higher than before so I do have room to sacrifice for more survivability if needed.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

Urzigurumash · February 2021

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

That would just slow things down too

I vote for buffs which would indirectly give some advantage to running more damage and less defense for builds besides gankers and MSorcs as you say. Buffing DOTs (which are relatively more injurious to Heavy builds in my opinion), buffing baseline Crit Damage or making the Brittle debuff more accessible, things like that. Of course giving procs stat-scaling would be nice - but it would make no sense for Siege, so Heavy still wins that fight.

renne · February 2021

StarOfElyon wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

That's the goal but there are many aspects of the armor that encourages 7 piece set ups. For instance the fact that penetration and % dmg increase per piece and have no cap. This is supposedly counter by the inherent flaws of the armor type. Medium only provides extra mitigation against aoes and not single target abilities and % extra martial damage vs light armor however some setups already have the survivability where they don't need to worry about this.

If they want 4/3 setups they need to increase the benefit per piece and cap it at 4 stacks and to change the armor abilities so that all of them are more widely useful and that they only require four pieces to activate.

So medium armor basically cancels magplars.

The joke is that magplars were already cancelled long before this right?

Daemonai · February 2021

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

I can already imagine everyone in the group having to wait for the tank as he slowly inches his way to the objective.

I feel many of the proposed changes to bring Heavy in line don't consider how the changes will affect tanking in ALL areas of the game.

Tanks still need to lead from the front, as well as move out of the red. The increased dodge cost is bad enough. Adding further movement speed debuffs on top of that is overkill. Tanks also still need to kill things in PvE outside of group content, so a nerf to damage is untenable.

YandereGirlfriend · February 2021

Daemonai wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

I can already imagine everyone in the group having to wait for the tank as he slowly inches his way to the objective.

I feel many of the proposed changes to bring Heavy in line don't consider how the changes will affect tanking in ALL areas of the game.

Tanks still need to lead from the front, as well as move out of the red. The increased dodge cost is bad enough. Adding further movement speed debuffs on top of that is overkill. Tanks also still need to kill things in PvE outside of group content, so a nerf to damage is untenable.

As someone earlier proposed, adding the various armor distinctions as buffs rather than as nerfs would have been a much wiser course (e.g. don't nerf Heavy Armor movement speed but rather have Light Armor buff movement speed instead).

That way, nobody would "lose" anything but different armors would still have clearly defined strengths.

Xarc · February 2021

proc sets arent dead ;
actually heavy armor without proc set is useless, but it's only for the test.

katorga · February 2021

Xarc wrote: »

proc sets arent dead ;
actually heavy armor without proc set is useless, but it's only for the test.

Dunno about that. It works reasonable well on my stat-based magcro in pvp this week. I just replace penetration from other sources: CP, class passives, set bonuses. I still get reasonable crit from class passives.

I'm not sure I'd try that with the new U29 heavy armor passives though.

I'm not entirely sure I'd even play magicka at all in pvp in U29 either.

Merforum · February 2021

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

This is a very good point. I haven't run the numbers but on initial glance it looks like the negatives can be countered by positives of other sizes. And since you no longer need 5 pieces to get all 5 passives, I think 3/2/2 will become the best layout. Where tank would be 3H/2M/2L, etc. You'd get full undaunted bonus and ALL the 15 armor passives + bonuses, most negatives cancel out.

Although overall a tank in 7 heavy definitely will be gimped in PVE. And these changes are absolutely all about 'balance' for PVP without PVE even considered apparently. Unless like I said 3H/2M/2L or 4H/2M/1L turn out to someone be better than the current 5/1/1, needs to be tested.

tomofhyrule · February 2021

Merforum wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

This is a very good point. I haven't run the numbers but on initial glance it looks like the negatives can be countered by positives of other sizes. And since you no longer need 5 pieces to get all 5 passives, I think 3/2/2 will become the best layout. Where tank would be 3H/2M/2L, etc. You'd get full undaunted bonus and ALL the 15 armor passives + bonuses, most negatives cancel out.

Although overall a tank in 7 heavy definitely will be gimped in PVE. And these changes are absolutely all about 'balance' for PVP without PVE even considered apparently. Unless like I said 3H/2M/2L or 4H/2M/1L turn out to someone be better than the current 5/1/1, needs to be tested.

And then comes the problem - should I have Yolnakriin or Ebon as the medium sets? Or Plague Doctor or Akaviri Dragonguard, those are also good sets to use. Maybe both? Ebon's probably a good choice for the weapons though, since the buff stays on the whole time when bar swapping, right?

Since 90+% of sets drop in a single weight, that's giving us a much more limited view of what we can and can't use. Sure, Torug can be crafted in any weight we want and Alkosh is already medium, but we can't craft anything that offers Minor Aegis - really most crafted sets are substandard for tanking with the exception of Torug, and even then it's only okay if you're on a frost staff tank; it doesn't have as much of an effect with SnB since 1H weapons have half-enchant values. Besides, Alkosh has been nerfed every update so far since the devs see it as a stam DPS set, not a tank set. The current version of Alkosh is specifically stated in the dev comments that a tank will need to specifically build for + weapon damage to use it, and then that precludes other sets.

So in an effort to allow us to diversify, it's really railroading us into a specific setup. And if you don't want to play that one... then why bother tanking. Everyone's gonna go grind random normals with fake tanks anyway and use that as proof that PvE was unaffected...

I need to wait until it's live or they put the NA server back up for PTS, but I'm nervous that it's going to make things a lot tougher. Sure, someone with 3600 CP or someone who's a literal god of tanking will have no issues, but this is making it that much harder for the learning tanks and those who aren't close to the CP cap. Are there really enough tanks in the game that we don't need more?

Urzigurumash · February 2021

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The current version of Alkosh is specifically stated in the dev comments that a tank will need to specifically build for + weapon damage to use it, and then that precludes other sets.

They said Alkosh caps at 3k Weapon Damage, so you can get there without a set devoted to it, 3x Infused Weapon Damage + Minor/Major Brutality should about do it, but if the Alkosh proc scales off of Bloodthirsty you could run 3x Bloodthirsty with whatever enchantment you like and probably hit Alkosh's cap with Brutality. I'm not sure how viable this is, I don't PvE much.

Otherwise though yes I agree, adapting to the armor passives restricts sets in choices. A considerable indirect buff to Crafted Sets. Obviously far from optimal but maybe you could get some tanking mileage out of single-barred Assassin's Guile and the additional time on Breach Poisons. Maybe not, again I don't really PvE. We could use a few more options for crafted debuff / group damage amplification sets.

Anyhow if tanking in Medium becomes more viable, that might be nice for running combos of PA / Alkosh / Morag Tong, so maybe something to consider for more tanks in easier content or off-tanking.

Merforum · February 2021

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

You guys know that you dont have to wear 7 pieces of either heavy or medium armor right? Now you can use any combination you want. You can have 4/3 or 4/2/1 or 5/2 or 5/1/1, 6/1 or 7.

there are now specific advantages to have 7 for each armor type, but they also work together for other combinations.

i have some ideas for a 4/2/1 setup that might perform better than my old 5/1/1 ever did.

This is a very good point. I haven't run the numbers but on initial glance it looks like the negatives can be countered by positives of other sizes. And since you no longer need 5 pieces to get all 5 passives, I think 3/2/2 will become the best layout. Where tank would be 3H/2M/2L, etc. You'd get full undaunted bonus and ALL the 15 armor passives + bonuses, most negatives cancel out.

Although overall a tank in 7 heavy definitely will be gimped in PVE. And these changes are absolutely all about 'balance' for PVP without PVE even considered apparently. Unless like I said 3H/2M/2L or 4H/2M/1L turn out to someone be better than the current 5/1/1, needs to be tested.

And then comes the problem - should I have Yolnakriin or Ebon as the medium sets? Or Plague Doctor or Akaviri Dragonguard, those are also good sets to use. Maybe both? Ebon's probably a good choice for the weapons though, since the buff stays on the whole time when bar swapping, right?

Since 90+% of sets drop in a single weight, that's giving us a much more limited view of what we can and can't use. Sure, Torug can be crafted in any weight we want and Alkosh is already medium, but we can't craft anything that offers Minor Aegis - really most crafted sets are substandard for tanking with the exception of Torug, and even then it's only okay if you're not a frost staff tank. Besides, Alkosh has been nerfed every update so far since the devs see it as a stam DPS set, not a tank set. The current version of Alkosh is specifically stated in the dev comments that a tank will need to specifically build for + weapon damage to use it, and then that precludes other sets.

So in an effort to allow us to diversify, it's really railroading us into a specific setup. And if you don't want to play that one... then why bother tanking. Everyone's gonna go grind random normals with fake tanks anyway and use that as proof that PvE was unaffected...

I need to wait until it's live or they put the NA server back up for PTS, but I'm nervous that it's going to make things a lot tougher. Sure, someone with 3600 CP or someone who's a literal god of tanking will have no issues, but this is making it that much harder for the learning tanks and those who aren't close to the CP cap. Are there really enough tanks in the game that we don't need more?

Yeah, I agree, as I mentioned these changes are almost 99% only thinking about PVP and 1% PVE. It literally makes no sense for Med to get block cost reduction, unless you are trying to appease PVPers who don't like heavy.

It would make sense if they allowed people to select any weight in the 'set crafting system', that would allow set diversity and get people to use that system more and solve the issue of getting stuck with having only 2 heavy sets to use.

But something is seriously wrong, I just crashed 3 times in dungeon, 1 time trying to enter BG and 1 more time just walking in stormhaven before I said this is ridic and quit. I can remember crashing 1 time in past year but logged right on and played for hours, something is seriously wrong. Wonder if cyro got more resources for silly no-proc test, which would defeat purpose of test BTW. OMG.

Dracane · February 2021

I am certain that most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly and that it became only more favorable to choose.
I agree that medium armor looks more attractive than ever though.

UntouchableHunter · February 2021

ZOS just did one more nerf to heavy armor...

Sangwyne · February 2021

Dracane wrote: »

I am certain that most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly and that it became only more favorable to choose.
I agree that medium armor looks more attractive than ever though.

Dracane wrote: »

most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly

Dracane wrote: »

heavy armor was only buffed

...What?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor Penalties
Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn

Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn

Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor
Rapid Mending: This passive now increases your Healing Taken by 1% for every 2/1 pieces of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 4/8% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

Resolve: Decreased the amount of Armor granted per piece of Heavy Armor worn to 114/229/343, down from 121/142/363.

Revitalize: This passive now increases the resources restored from your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2/4% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 12/25% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

These are straight nerfs. Heavy armor was not "only buffed" as you say, and I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion. The penalties speak for themselves. Rapid Mending even at 7 pieces went from 8% to 7%, at 5/1/1 it's only 5%. Resolve gives less armor. Revitalize is nerfed for 5/1/1 and 6/1 heavy armor. Either you misread the changes, didn't bother to read them at all, or are constructing a narrative against Heavy armor. Either way, it's clear there are individuals on the forums clamoring for further nerfs to tanks who will never be content so long as heavy armor and the tank playstyle even exist in the game. This PTS patch cycle has seen a slow and steady erosion of passive benefits for tanks alongside nerfs to their sustain, mobility, and durability. Meanwhile, Medium armor gets a free pass with absolutely zero penalties whatsoever, and stamina already comprises the majority of builds in PvP; why are tanking passives like block cost and aoe damage reduction being thrown on Medium armor when it already has damage boosting passives? Shor's bones, Heavy armor now INCREASES the amount of magic damage you take, I should never feel like equipping more armor is making my character weaker in a game. And the last PTS 6.3.3 just nerfed Heavy armor AGAIN; how much are people willing to bet there will be another nerf to it on PTS 6.3.4? Taking offers.

Anyron · February 2021

Daemonai wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

Yeah thats the reason I dont want to see a damage reduction either. 3% move speed reduction per piece of heavy would be enough IMO. Youre a juggernaut but slow as hell.

I can already imagine everyone in the group having to wait for the tank as he slowly inches his way to the objective.

I feel many of the proposed changes to bring Heavy in line don't consider how the changes will affect tanking in ALL areas of the game.

Tanks still need to lead from the front, as well as move out of the red. The increased dodge cost is bad enough. Adding further movement speed debuffs on top of that is overkill. Tanks also still need to kill things in PvE outside of group content, so a nerf to damage is untenable.

I am sure in real life you can with full-plate armor move just as fast as guy next to you with just skirt.
I can also imagine how your doing rolls with said armor

Also, tanks should be intended to have minimum damage, maximal resistance. It was in eso before they started doing damage checks and then tank becomed half-dps.

tuxon · February 2021

Medium armour just shouldn't give you 21% block cost reduction and that will be it. Light as well btw.

Dracane · February 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am certain that most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly and that it became only more favorable to choose.
I agree that medium armor looks more attractive than ever though.

Dracane wrote: »

most people agree that heavy armor was only buffed, both directly and indirectly

Dracane wrote: »

heavy armor was only buffed

...What?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor Penalties
Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn

Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn

Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn

Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Heavy Armor
Rapid Mending: This passive now increases your Healing Taken by 1% for every 2/1 pieces of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 4/8% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

Resolve: Decreased the amount of Armor granted per piece of Heavy Armor worn to 114/229/343, down from 121/142/363.

Revitalize: This passive now increases the resources restored from your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2/4% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 12/25% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

These are straight nerfs. Heavy armor was not "only buffed" as you say, and I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion. The penalties speak for themselves. Rapid Mending even at 7 pieces went from 8% to 7%, at 5/1/1 it's only 5%. Resolve gives less armor. Revitalize is nerfed for 5/1/1 and 6/1 heavy armor. Either you misread the changes, didn't bother to read them at all, or are constructing a narrative against Heavy armor. Either way, it's clear there are individuals on the forums clamoring for further nerfs to tanks who will never be content so long as heavy armor and the tank playstyle even exist in the game. This PTS patch cycle has seen a slow and steady erosion of passive benefits for tanks alongside nerfs to their sustain, mobility, and durability. Meanwhile, Medium armor gets a free pass with absolutely zero penalties whatsoever, and stamina already comprises the majority of builds in PvP; why are tanking passives like block cost and aoe damage reduction being thrown on Medium armor when it already has damage boosting passives? Shor's bones, Heavy armor now INCREASES the amount of magic damage you take, I should never feel like equipping more armor is making my character weaker in a game. And the last PTS 6.3.3 just nerfed Heavy armor AGAIN; how much are people willing to bet there will be another nerf to it on PTS 6.3.4? Taking offers.

It got buffed where it mattered for pvp. The nerfs are insignificant enough.
Heavy armor received what matters in the meta: Even more damage mitigation, more reduction against the most common and dangerous damage type that most procsets belong to (martial) and the increased stats everyone received, makes it even easier to deal high damage in heavy armor without sacrifising defense. Therefor It became even less pressing to wear light and medium.

Medium armor became a very close contender indeed, yet it does not make heavy's benefits redundant.

Firstmep · February 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Anyone that PVP's at a high level knows that almost anyone that's not a ganker or mag sorc is probably wearing heavy armor if they are serious about PVP. There are some exceptions to this, but in general heavy armor dominates the highest level of pvp.

In my view, as long as the principal objective in Cyro is knocking down walls and doors and flipping flags, Heavy will always be the most popular choice there. This is one reason why I'm very much opposed to nerfing damage output in Heavy. It's just going to slow things down.

Another view is, so what? Only 2/12 players in "high level" PvE groups wear Heavy, so there's the balance.

BGs abd ic would like to have a word with you.. Heavy armor is very much an issue in all forms of pvp.

TC_Lee13 · February 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP players on the forums have been clamoring for Heavy armor to be gutted so that builds utilizing Malacath and proc sets for damage/sustain would no longer have survivability to fall back upon. Well, it seems ZOS has granted their wish, and nuked Heavy armor from orbit: 7% increased magic damage taken, 21% increased roll dodge cost, 7% reduced sprint speed, and 70% increased detection radius, making stealth impossible, alongside nerfs to Heavy armor passives like the armor from Resolve and sustain from Revitalize and Rapid Mending. These nerfs, coupled with the removal of Shadow Ward for block cost and other CP changes, mean the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction; Medium armor may now actually be tankier than Heavy, granting 14% AOE damage reduction, 21% block cost reduction, and all with ZERO drawbacks whatsoever. Yet again, PvP players have managed to get an entire playstyle nerfed, and this time, PvE players will pay the price with longer dungeon queue times as tanks quit or change roles. Enjoy looking forward to the exact same proc sets being (ab)used with the exact same Malacath strategy, only this time it will be on Medium armor, which now provides 14% damage reduction to many attacks in PvE, alongside permablocking from its new block cost reduction passive, along with passives to boost Weapon Damage and Stamina recovery that Heavy armor never had. Heavy Armor Is Dead, Long Live Medium Armor.

This is false information and you clearly haven't tested anything on the PTS. Heavy armor is actually really overpowered on the PTS, especially when combined with mitigation CP.

Asardes · February 2021

I main Stamina DK and have a builds using both Medium (1/5/1) and Heavy Armor (0/2/5). For my other characters: stamina - Medium only (0/7/0 or 1/5/1), magicka Light (5/1/1). I've always disliked playing heavy armor vs medium on stamina or light on magicka for a number of reasons:
- Damage is gimped - either less weapon damage or penetration - I hate it when that player manages to survive burst with 1% HP because my damage was too low.
- I can't roll dodge as much, and that's arguably the best defense against hard hitting skills like Crystal Fragments
- I can't mitigate AoE (shuffle) or shield as effectively (most classes have to use Harness/Dampen magicka)
- I can't purge snares unless I'm on a Warden magicka Templar unless I gimp my healing taking Forward Momentum instead of Rally
- I have less sustain, even with revitalize because heavy attacks are relatively hard to land on good players

And that's I don't understand why would they tune Medium Armor even higher with the new bonus, which double some existing ones to boot: cost of sprint and sneak are already covered by other passives from the same tree. IMO they should drop that bonus for medium armor and leave it like that.

DonGodJoe · February 2021

I still dont understand why we have to argue over heavy negative bonuses when everyone one see here that the only logical solution is to decrease the damage taken from magical and physical sources AND decrease the DAMAGE DONE per heavy piece, this solves PVP and PVE at both lines .. Tanks remain heavy and strong in PVE and will do significant low dmg (compare to light/medium) in PvP

It's been offered by X people, XY people agreed to it.