More Tank nerfs?

zvavi · February 2021

zvavi wrote: »

for comparison pts: (without block cost enchants, with 3 enchants it would be 447 block cost)
vet blocked swipes:

normal non blocked swipes:

stats:

live (3 block cost enchants):
vet blocked swipes (first one is under lady thorn, can be ignored):

normal non blocked swipes:
stats (roll dodge was 3430 on live if i am not mistaken):

conclusion:
same: mitigation without block, block costs
buffed: blocked damage
nerfed: dodge cost
probably would get more tanky in the pts with more cp invested in actual mitigation (tbf i only put cp into the 15% reduction from non player sources, and the single target attacks mitigation, everything else i put in max resources, and a bit weapon dmg for alkosh :tee hee:)

throughout gaining more cp on the pts, resource management and mitigation will get buffed as well (like the free roll dodge every 30 seconds, mitigation for dots, etc etc)

continuing my tests, we got new stuff incoming,

conclusion for 6.3.2:
same: mitigation without block
buffed: blocked damage (much less than 6.3.0/6.3.1)
nerfed: dodge cost, block costs

one thing i failed to consider is the free dodge every minute perk, it is very nice. but the block cost going up in 6.3.2 is a massive change we didnt have with 6.3.0/6.3.1 and thats with me wearing 1 med, unlike previous test where i had 7 heavy.

also, block mitigation from heavy armor is still bugged, and being added to the original 50% block mitigation, instead of the additive block cost it should go to, resulting in "double" blocked mitigation currently on the pts.

ZaroktheImmortal · February 2021

What I really don't get is the magic damage bonus to heavy armour....tanks need to survive all kinds of attacks including magic damage. What are tanks supposed to wear now?

zvavi · February 2021

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

What I really don't get is the magic damage bonus to heavy armour....tanks need to survive all kinds of attacks including magic damage. What are tanks supposed to wear now?

also thats the thing i didnt test yet. but i did invest in 5% less dmg taken from magic sources, so it shouldnt be that bad, only around 10% more dmg taken from magic, we can survive that. \s

(calculation is simple, if physical dmg is staying the same after it's 7% reduction, it means we are comparing 93% to the 102% that we take from magic)

itscompton · February 2021

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Honestly I'd rather they just nerf damage while wearing heavy plain and simple.

Tanks should be taunt and cc kings not running around with 2h getting kills.

It should take at a minimum three dps to burn down a full tank. And at a minimum two tanks to have the damage to bring down medium armor.

Light armor should be laughing in the back as they're murdering groups with aoe but crying in the fetal position if anyone gets close.

If were talking full tank builds it should take 5 attacking someone intentionally standing still in light armor for them to get a kill. The ratio's you propose would just continue to encourage tanky zerg play.

Kurat · February 2021

Enjoy even longer queue times

Sangwyne · February 2021

I quite literally just joined the forums after months of enjoying the game just to voice my concern with the upcoming changes to tanking on PTS. A disclaimer, I am only around CP 500 and started just last year, but pretty much all my play time is on my tank character and I'd like for all of that to not go to waste with this next patch. I posted on the PTS under https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561210/pts-changes-aimed-at-pvp-will-indirectly-hurt-pve-tanking-and-queue-times/p1 regarding this and was hoping to make a similar topic in General Discussion to promote visibility on this topic, but I don't know the stance on these forums regarding crossposting/multiposting on different subforums and would appreciate any information before doing so, as I'd rather not get banned my first day on the forums. Back on subject, it really does appear like ZOS plans on making rather sweeping changes (read: nerfs) to the identity and viability of tanks in PvE and I really don't know why; last patch Major Protection was hit, going from 30% damage reduction down to 10%, and then this patch they unleashed the kraken on tank players. Would really be nice to hear a word from one of the developers on their thought process behind the changes and their plans for tanks in the future, but I don't know enough around here to know how to contact one of them and I have my doubts that they'd respond if I were to do so. Good luck on bringing more attention to this issue and keeping discussion regarding the tanking changes at the forefront of people's minds; hopefully enough people will voice their concerns to make the developers recant or at least have some mercy on the role, because as it stands now it's not looking like it's going in a good direction.

etchedpixels · February 2021

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DMuehlhausen · February 2021

Jaimeh wrote: »

The roll dodge change sucks... why do pve tanks have to suffer from the heavy meta in pvp and all the cyro tanks...

Cause Devs will never except it's mathematically and design based impossibility to balance PvE and PvP, yet here we are and they are still trying.

bluelights400 · February 2021

Jaimeh wrote: »

The roll dodge change sucks... why do pve tanks have to suffer from the heavy meta in pvp and all the cyro tanks...

THIS. Pve tanking gets enough hell as is. You make one slip up and all hell breaks loose. ZOS I BEG, HELP US TANKS AND HEALERS!

LadyNalcarya · February 2021

Tbh between this and dps reduction even less tanks will be willing to tank for pugs.

VilniusNastavnik · February 2021

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Tbh between this and dps reduction even less tanks will be willing to tank for pugs.

ill still tank for pugs. But ill be less understanding if said pugs can't pull dps now.

Mastery404 · February 2021

Tanks do not need healers in this game in PVE. I think less self sustain is a good thing for the health of the game.

LadyNalcarya · February 2021

Mastery404 wrote: »

Tanks do not need healers in this game in PVE. I think less self sustain is a good thing for the health of the game.

The problem is that the way vet hardmode content is designed, you are not supposed to stand there and block, there's a lot of dodging required. And no matter how good your heals are, you cannot heal oneshots.
Same with dps nerf, there's content that was designed for really high dps meta (hardmodes in Sunspire and such), and a lot of players will not be able to do content they can do now. It doesn't matter how good you are with mechanics, if the eternal servant is not killed in time, your raid wipes. I've seen pugs failing to kill him on non-hardmode (where he has 2 or 3 million hp) and on hardmode he has 12 million or so... Not to mention that speedrun is supposed to be 30 minutes so you can't go for a slow tactic where you play through all mechanics.

AyaDark · February 2021

Mastery404 wrote: »

Tanks do not need healers in this game in PVE. I think less self sustain is a good thing for the health of the game.

Mutagen spamming will not help tanks in any way.

And good healers was always needed before.

So i see no changes.

dcmgti · February 2021

Mastery404 wrote: »

Tanks do not need healers in this game in PVE. I think less self sustain is a good thing for the health of the game.

I'm pretty sure that most of the people that tank prefer to have a healer in their group for vet DLC. I know I do. People see a couple youtube videos and think that all tanks/groups can do the same thing. That's not the case. Just because a streamer/content creator can do vBRP "Unchained" with 1 tank/3 dps, the majority of the community is not going to do that. The majority is going to run a traditional group comp.

Septimus_Magna · February 2021

It would have been better if light armor had a passive for increase damage/penetration against blocking targets. This would have made heavy armor less overtuned for PVP without affecting PVE tanks. The increase in dodge cost is over the top for most PVE tanks and the increase magic damage taken will be tough in some PVE situations while it makes little difference in PVP.

Sergykid · February 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

guys, they are not removing roll dodge from heavy armor.
if your roll costs now 3k, it will cost 3600. You only roll once every minute maybe, anyway. If 1-2k stamina makes the difference for you between win and lose, time to check your build and playstyle.

and the extra health will be decisive instead. Most people die from hard hitting mechanics in which this 6k health will save them, whereas more resistances would have not saved them.

Tank gryphons in vCR and Roll Dodge once every minut and see how it goes 😂

what? gryphons need to be roll dodged? i never roll dodged them, blocking is enough.
i can hardly think of places where roll dodge is necessary. Maybe vSS breath but that's convenience, i just block it fully

Mettaricana · February 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It wasn't enough to butcher all our major buffs in the last patch from 30% to 10%

EDIT for clarity with this weeks PTS:

CP System we got now 1.0
Ironclad: 25% mitigation
Hardy + Elemental defender 15% mitigation
= 40%
CP armor potential = 5000 armor

CP System 2.0
10% base mitigation
12% from Preperation (nerfed in new PTS)
4% Hardy (nerfed in new PTS)
= 26% (nerf)
CP armor potential = 1700 armor (nerfed massively)

Nord Passive Armor - Nerfed by almost 50%!

Sustain What you give up in CP 1.0:
Tenacy CP = +15% ressources from heavy attack
25% cheaper roll dodge (tumbling)
25% cheaper blocks (Shadow Ward)

What you "gain" in CP 2.0
440 stamina cheaper roll dodge (tumbling) (nerfed further in PTS week)

Fortification 6% block mitigation (down from 20% nerfed further in PTS)

Tireless Guardian 80 stamina cost reduction on block (down from 100 - nerfed further in PTS)
Higher cost of roll dodge (up to 21% from wearing heavy armor)

Overall it's a massive nerf to tank overall.

Zos I urge you to STOP this or nobody in their right mind will continue to tank end game content. It will be even more of a miserable experience!

Can we just merf the content slash off like 20% enemy damage and like 20% adds bosses health to compensate us getting weaker every patch.

etchedpixels · February 2021

I don't expect them to get it right this update or for a couple more - any change on this scale is going to break everything and result in some new weird overkill metas appearing until they shake it out.

More of a problem though are things like the speed penalties on heavy because that ruins the gameplay for everyone in the meantime. Instead of doing a dungeon half the game will now consist of sitting around waiting for the tank to arrive. On PC it'll mean every tank running dressing room going 'armour set 1', run to boss, 'armour set 2', fight boss, 'armour 1' run to next - which is a pain but for the poor console players it's going to be horrible. The alternative is that tanks have to drop one of a 5 set in order to wear wild hunt all the time. Bad luck DPS it'll be four pieces ebon or some other set now.

Some of the other stuff will be interesting. The armour changes really open up the options for there being setups that are optimal for different dungeons whereas right now it's rare this matters much.

Grandchamp1989 · February 2021

Another week another tank nerf XD

"Heavy Armor
Reduced the Damage Reduction granted while immune to Crowd Control to 1% per piece, down from 2%. "

3 weeks straight now!

zvavi · February 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Another week another tank nerf XD

"Heavy Armor
Reduced the Damage Reduction granted while immune to Crowd Control to 1% per piece, down from 2%. "

3 weeks straight now!

Tbf it I so minor comparing to previous weeks I am chill with it.

Grandchamp1989 · February 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Another week another tank nerf XD

"Heavy Armor
Reduced the Damage Reduction granted while immune to Crowd Control to 1% per piece, down from 2%. "

3 weeks straight now!

Tbf it I so minor comparing to previous weeks I am chill with it.

7% less mitigation if you spec'd for anti CC is not really minor. That's more than what minor protection provides lol.

3 weeks of nothing but nerfs on a super important role nobody plays. It's insane.

mobicera · February 2021

dcmgti wrote: »

Mastery404 wrote: »

Tanks do not need healers in this game in PVE. I think less self sustain is a good thing for the health of the game.

I'm pretty sure that most of the people that tank prefer to have a healer in their group for vet DLC. I know I do. People see a couple youtube videos and think that all tanks/groups can do the same thing. That's not the case. Just because a streamer/content creator can do vBRP "Unchained" with 1 tank/3 dps, the majority of the community is not going to do that. The majority is going to run a traditional group comp.

I don't really think that is the case...
Most I know will not run with a true healer in 99% of 4 person content that includes vbrp and hm vdlc
There really are very few exceptions to this.
Personally I won't really run with a healer unless I know them fairly well and am just helping them out for something, even then I would prefer them to essentially be a dps...
I will run by choice with a healer in vsghm, vmfhm and vfvhm, which as far as I can tell is normal.

Sangwyne · February 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Another week another tank nerf XD

"Heavy Armor
Reduced the Damage Reduction granted while immune to Crowd Control to 1% per piece, down from 2%. "

3 weeks straight now!

Tbf it I so minor comparing to previous weeks I am chill with it.

7% less mitigation if you spec'd for anti CC is not really minor. That's more than what minor protection provides lol.

3 weeks of nothing but nerfs on a super important role nobody plays. It's insane.

It's honestly baffling how anyone can look at the current dungeon queue times, the current state of tanking in PvE, and the absolute lack of any semblance of solo capacity on tanks in PvE and think to themselves "yup, the role is too strong, needs further nerfs." I can only conclude that the people clamoring for nerfs to tanks and heavy armor have no idea what tanks actually DO; someone speccing themselves out in full proc sets, using Malacath with Vateshran, Syvarra's, Crimson etc is not a tank, they are a walking ball of health designed to stay alive until their unholy eldritch abomination of a build stuffed to the brim with the latest meta PvP sets can play and win the game for them. And yet these threads pop up all over the place, one after the other, with nothing of substance in the initial post, little more than a word or two about how tanks are "busted", providing zero reasoning behind them, and getting hundreds of views and comments each time. The few threads that DO pop up about how tanks are in need of help, usually with a person who actually has experience PLAYING a tank behind them, get buried under the deluge of cries for ZOS to nerf tanks based off of a bad experience playing against a stamina warden abusing proc sets and Arctic Blast (which might be a little overtuned) with Malacath (which is almost certainly overtuned) to pull free damage and survivability out from between the cheeks of a build that normally doesn't spec for it. I'm just tired of the repeated and targeted nerfs at a playstyle I rather enjoyed and now might have to give up on in favor of whatever the meta happens to be; tanking just isn't rewarding or fun anymore, and it's certainly not going to become more so after this fresh batch of nerfs.

AyaDark · February 2021

My main WAS a tank.

Do not blame MALACAT ring.

Blame new veteshrain destro.

The PVP cancer can use not malacath but Zaan as example. Nomuch difference.

The real problem is veteshrain have no counterplay. Zaan can be cleansed.

Veteshrain do more damage and you can do nothing with it. It is just cheat like thing with zero cost, no counterplay on some classes, and more damage than 5 set item bonus.

Tanks in PVE is not interesting to play - ALL others see in you is just a BUFF BOT.

There are no tanks in teso just buff bots. Blame META for this.

Even good tanks that really do there jobs as tank - not buff bot are not respected in this game. All people care about is DPS something before is starts its mechanics or - wipe. No one really play the game all this game is about low skilled DPS dummy play. Top DDs can do nothing at all, in real combat some of them even can not pass easy arenas like vMA or vVeteshrain with no death. But while they can dps dummy and kill boss while it do not startto do something it is ok. Borrong stupid gameplay.

As example i played Perfect World before, and when fights last for 10-20 minutes it was interesting for me.

Now i DPS the same boss for 4 seconds !!! It is not fun at all ! I stop playing it. I can not even hit the boss, with all my gear it dies before that - where is any fun ???

And if you do not do like this - you are no need.

I have perfect character there good DPS with debuffs (venomancer) with good pets.

I can not even hit the boss !!! I just put 2 debuffs and it is already dead !

It is boring play - no skill needed !!!

The same here.

No tanks - all top group needs are buff bots.

Other groups will not have enough dps to fast kill and only hard geared tank can normally stand. But he will be blamed that he is not buff bot !

Even if they have not got enough dps to kill the boss.

Grandchamp1989 · February 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Another week another tank nerf XD

"Heavy Armor
Reduced the Damage Reduction granted while immune to Crowd Control to 1% per piece, down from 2%. "

3 weeks straight now!

Tbf it I so minor comparing to previous weeks I am chill with it.

7% less mitigation if you spec'd for anti CC is not really minor. That's more than what minor protection provides lol.

3 weeks of nothing but nerfs on a super important role nobody plays. It's insane.

It's honestly baffling how anyone can look at the current dungeon queue times, the current state of tanking in PvE, and the absolute lack of any semblance of solo capacity on tanks in PvE and think to themselves "yup, the role is too strong, needs further nerfs." I can only conclude that the people clamoring for nerfs to tanks and heavy armor have no idea what tanks actually DO; someone speccing themselves out in full proc sets, using Malacath with Vateshran, Syvarra's, Crimson etc is not a tank, they are a walking ball of health designed to stay alive until their unholy eldritch abomination of a build stuffed to the brim with the latest meta PvP sets can play and win the game for them. And yet these threads pop up all over the place, one after the other, with nothing of substance in the initial post, little more than a word or two about how tanks are "busted", providing zero reasoning behind them, and getting hundreds of views and comments each time. The few threads that DO pop up about how tanks are in need of help, usually with a person who actually has experience PLAYING a tank behind them, get buried under the deluge of cries for ZOS to nerf tanks based off of a bad experience playing against a stamina warden abusing proc sets and Arctic Blast (which might be a little overtuned) with Malacath (which is almost certainly overtuned) to pull free damage and survivability out from between the cheeks of a build that normally doesn't spec for it. I'm just tired of the repeated and targeted nerfs at a playstyle I rather enjoyed and now might have to give up on in favor of whatever the meta happens to be; tanking just isn't rewarding or fun anymore, and it's certainly not going to become more so after this fresh batch of nerfs.

I fully agree mate.

I have suggested many options to tweak PVP without making PVE tanks suffer.

-One idea was to add a penalty to spell/weapon damge to heavy armor.
You can still be TANKY but your damage will suffer. That seems like a decent tradeoff.

-Another idea was to add the penalty when under the effect of battlespirit so it would only affect PvP.

But for some reason Zos insist on having it spill over into PvE.

Made a thread earlier back about damage of adds/mobs in vet DLC dungeons.
We're talking over 150.000 damage at its base from adds!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/543733/how-much-damage-some-vet-dlc-elite-adds-deal-and-mitigation-factors#latest

I'm fully aware why these threads gets no traction too.

1. Nobody plays Tanks so they can't relate to the experience. In most peoples mind it's just "hold block". Most people find tanking boring, and the reality is most of these wouldn't survive on a Tank in Vet DLC dungeons and trials.
2. People who play Tank avoid DLC dungeons/trials in vet like the.....
3. End Game tanking takes a certain type of personality where you are used to count on yourself, and deal with high in-game consequences of your actions.

Unfortunately this cocktail will make end-game PVE tanking suffer, and the skill gap between progression Tanks and experienced Tanks will be higher than ever, since everything will be more unforgiven.

I have tried to make my concerns known but Youtubers sit with their Godslayer guilds doing a million DPS already, so they don't care - and they have long forgot what progression Tanking with subpar groups feels like.

Zos seems hellbend on catering 100% to a vocal minority PvP group at the expense of PvE Tanking

And most of the community have no idea what endgame PvE tanking is like either.

It is what it is I guess..

Last two patches hit Tanks super hard, and I'm honestly tired of trying - Guess I'll make healer and see how it feels.

Saccopharynx · February 2021

PVP tanking resulting in nerfs to PVE tanks has a whole entire pile of suck tacked on that I don't know how to reply to, honestly. I've always had the opinion that PVE and PVP need to be balanced separately, and if that means making specific sets allowed/created for PVP and locking the rest out? Then do that. If PVP is supposed to be hardcore players putting their skills to the test, then having them wearing all of these proc sets that do their job for them seems entirely counter-productive to proving one's PVP ability. I know that isn't a popular viewpoint, but at some point PVE and PVP need to be balanced separately, as over-sweeping for PVP hurts PVE players (and vice versa as well).

That aside, I don't know how much these changes will have an affect on my tank specifically. I'm already running a "non-meta" build as it is that has caused me issues before (not the tank, but the DPS who are convinced because a Youtuber demands a set of armor that I am a bad tank for not using that specific set nonsense), and I don't roll-dodge enough to feel the result of this nerf due to my build handling a lot of ugly hits, but I don't think the outcome from this really benefit anyone.

Sahidom · February 2021

OP... There is something you're missing from the equation: ZOS mentioned all characters have some -14/5% mitigation from non-Player sources. So even when the 2.0 system reduces the damage reduction down by 14% this difference is added elsewhere. Very similar to them adding extra health, resources, and spell/weapon damage to the characters. While the 2.0 system on paper reduces the current 1.0 damage reduction sources, it's only a partial picture here. Such as the 1% damage reduction per piece while under CC immunity and 1% from martial attacks (i.e. boss heavy attacks); while the 1% penalty to magic damage is intimidating but a well built tank should be able to handle this damage off-set with preperation i.e. damage shields or other methods. Also remember, I believe you don't get status effects from non--Player enemies, so there's a minor indirect reduction of damage there.

Grandchamp1989 · February 2021

Sahidom wrote: »

OP... There is something you're missing from the equation: ZOS mentioned all characters have some -14/5% mitigation from non-Player sources. So even when the 2.0 system reduces the damage reduction down by 14% this difference is added elsewhere. Very similar to them adding extra health, resources, and spell/weapon damage to the characters. While the 2.0 system on paper reduces the current 1.0 damage reduction sources, it's only a partial picture here. Such as the 1% damage reduction per piece while under CC immunity and 1% from martial attacks (i.e. boss heavy attacks); while the 1% penalty to magic damage is intimidating but a well built tank should be able to handle this damage off-set with preperation i.e. damage shields or other methods. Also remember, I believe you don't get status effects from non--Player enemies, so there's a minor indirect reduction of damage there.

Unfortunately my friend the 10% extra (15% was misspelling they fixed it to 10%) is part of the equation at the very beginning:

CP System 2.0
10% base mitigation

The +1% by martial attacks are offset by the -1% extra damage you take from all magical attacks

Whichever way you look at it it's a MASSIVE nerf.

zvavi · February 2021

Sahidom wrote: »

OP... There is something you're missing from the equation: ZOS mentioned all characters have some -14/5% mitigation from non-Player sources. So even when the 2.0 system reduces the damage reduction down by 14% this difference is added elsewhere. Very similar to them adding extra health, resources, and spell/weapon damage to the characters. While the 2.0 system on paper reduces the current 1.0 damage reduction sources, it's only a partial picture here. Such as the 1% damage reduction per piece while under CC immunity and 1% from martial attacks (i.e. boss heavy attacks); while the 1% penalty to magic damage is intimidating but a well built tank should be able to handle this damage off-set with preperation i.e. damage shields or other methods. Also remember, I believe you don't get status effects from non--Player enemies, so there's a minor indirect reduction of damage there.

From my tests:
Same: physical damage in non block (total mitigation from old and new CP ends up the same for physical damage on a 6/7 heavy setup, notice that this is when I didn't optimize old CP for specific trial mitigation)
Nerfs: block cost, dodge cost, no 3k mag when you take absurd amount of mag dmg, damage taken from magic attacks, speed in sprint, healing taken, Shield size, healing done, crit healing done.
Buffs: blocked damage. Free dodge every half a minute. Sustain buffs.