More Tank nerfs?

Grandchamp1989

It wasn't enough to nerf all our major buffs in the last patch from 30% to 10%

EDIT for clarity with this weeks PTS:

CP System we got now 1.0
Ironclad: 25% mitigation
Hardy + Elemental defender 15% mitigation
= 40%
CP armor potential = 5000 armor

CP System 2.0
10% base mitigation
12% from Preperation (nerfed in new PTS)
4% Hardy (nerfed in new PTS)
= 26% (nerf)
CP armor potential = 1700 armor (nerfed massively)

Nord Passive Armor - Nerfed by almost 50%!

Sustain What you give up in CP 1.0:
Tenacy CP = +15% ressources from heavy attack
25% cheaper roll dodge (tumbling)
25% cheaper blocks (Shadow Ward)

What you "gain" in CP 2.0
440 stamina cheaper roll dodge (tumbling) (nerfed further in PTS week)

Fortification 6% block mitigation (down from 20% nerfed further in PTS)

Tireless Guardian 80 stamina cost reduction on block (down from 100 - nerfed further in PTS)
Higher cost of roll dodge (up to 21% from wearing heavy armor)

Overall it seems like a lot of nerfs.

---

15th of february - another week another tank nerf:
"Heavy Armor
Reduced the Damage Reduction granted while immune to Crowd Control to 1% per piece, down from 2%. "

Jaimeh

The roll dodge change sucks... why do pve tanks have to suffer from the heavy meta in pvp and all the cyro tanks...

Varana

Also, unless I'm missing something obvious, +7% damage from magic seems like a really bad idea in Cloudrest. Or Sunspire. Or most of Maw. Or... well, mostly fine in SO, I guess.

zvavi

we didnt see cp trees yet so too early to judge.

Kory

+3% is a bit much for each piece of heavy armor.
I can see myself now, "Sorry guys I was out of stam"

But the heavy armor passive does give you a boost of recovery for heavy attacking. So we'll see.

phantasmalD

Let's not ignore the massive base stat buff. 16k is much higher than the old CP buffed base health, which was about 10.5k.
Not tank exclusive but +6k hp is very significant.

16k-18k is how much you had on DPS/Healer specs WITH food buff.

Eedat

Really this is going to be impossible to judge until we see the new CP trees

ccfeeling

Its pretty make sense tho, your char heavy , u require much more stam to roll, isnt it?

MirandaSharp

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It wasn't enough to butcher all our major buffs in the last patch from 30% to 10%

Now...
+3% increase to roll dodge pr heavy armor piece worn? 15-21% increase! Roll Dodge are pretty much mandary in many HMs.

Nord: Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

Imperial: This passive no longer restores Health, Magicka, and Stamina whenever you deal Direct Damage.

Also noticed all characters take 15% less damage where you moved it from CP to Characters. That's fine if CP still grant a LOT of resistances. Because 15% doesn't even begin to compare with maxes Ironclad + Hardy.......

From reading this my initial reaction is Tanks will be less tanky and cost more to roll dodge....
Or maybe I missed some major Tank buff?

But atleast Vet Frostvault will be a walkover now...

Because we already have too many Tanks right....

I think real tanks have no business doing any roll-dodging. They should have a shield, heavy armor and block the attacks. Never liked the roll-dodge for no damage trick. Also doesn't fit into the role playing aspect of the game. What knights in full plate heavy armor roll dodges? They needed 2-3 helpers just to get up on a horse....

xaraan

Yea, there has been way too many HM fights where they've made roll dodging a need while also needing to be a real tank. They really didn't a poor job with armor changes in regards to heavy armor IMO.

coop500

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It wasn't enough to butcher all our major buffs in the last patch from 30% to 10%

Now...
+3% increase to roll dodge pr heavy armor piece worn? 15-21% increase! Roll Dodge are pretty much mandary in many HMs.

Nord: Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

Imperial: This passive no longer restores Health, Magicka, and Stamina whenever you deal Direct Damage.

Also noticed all characters take 15% less damage where you moved it from CP to Characters. That's fine if CP still grant a LOT of resistances. Because 15% doesn't even begin to compare with maxes Ironclad + Hardy.......

From reading this my initial reaction is Tanks will be less tanky and cost more to roll dodge....
Or maybe I missed some major Tank buff?

But atleast Vet Frostvault will be a walkover now...

Because we already have too many Tanks right....

I think real tanks have no business doing any roll-dodging. They should have a shield, heavy armor and block the attacks. Never liked the roll-dodge for no damage trick. Also doesn't fit into the role playing aspect of the game. What knights in full plate heavy armor roll dodges? They needed 2-3 helpers just to get up on a horse....

The problem is how many current dungeon mechanics FORCE you to roll dodge, you can't block.

coop500

I don't mind if they keep this nerf, but they need to go through current dungeons where you MUST roll dodge or die even as a real tank and fix this.

MirandaSharp

coop500 wrote: »

The problem is how many current dungeon mechanics FORCE you to roll dodge, you can't block.

Agree. But it seems some of them are made for "range tanking", where you have to keep aggro but not get close enough to get hit. The giant in Icereach comes to mind...

jle30303

Okay, anyone got a list of all the "roll dodge or die" attacks that a tank literally *can't* tank even by blocking? Things that are autokill, or do more than (say) 40k to a blocking character in heavy armour?

etchedpixels

Selene's on veteran is an immediate one.

Starlock

coop500 wrote: »

I don't mind if they keep this nerf, but they need to go through current dungeons where you MUST roll dodge or die even as a real tank and fix this.

I remember the first time I did one of those dungeons. I was so confused. It was not a fun experience. The moment where I went "wait... what if I roll dodge this instead? Wait... what?! I'm OK?! Guess that's the mechanic..."

On the one hand, I get the change. On the other... yeesh.

Krevad

jle30303 wrote: »

Okay, anyone got a list of all the "roll dodge or die" attacks that a tank literally *can't* tank even by blocking? Things that are autokill, or do more than (say) 40k to a blocking character in heavy armour?

For dungeons/arenas:
I don't do dungeons much but just off the top of my head, heavies from several DLC/HM bosses e.g Enraged Grundwulf heavies, Grundwulf in HM while heal debuffed, Enraged Icereach Frost Giant heavies, Kjalnar HM heavies.
Not dodging Maarselok HM's sideways breath applies a heavy DoT that explodes and then jumps to others when purged, making things harder for both you and your healer.
Resource drain effect from Pishna/other rangers in Stage 6 vDSA will effectively zero out your stamina for 10 seconds if blocked instead of rolled, likely causing a wipe if you die and adds are piled up.
Many heavies in general that leave you dangerously low and followed up by light attack weave by mobs e.g Stone Watchers in vDoM

For trials:
Taking heavies from Yolnakriin HM without Guard, not dodging the last ticks of breath for all dragons in vSS HM, heavies from Falgravn HM in execute
Shatter effects from Savages in vMoL, Falcon Punch in vHoF
Taking heavies while marked by Yandir HM and Nahvi HM
DoT effects from Gryphons in vCR, Yandir heavies and Njordal heavies in vKA/HM

josiahva

My takeaway from this is that the only way to mitigate many of these nerfs is to now use 3 light, 3 heavy and 1 medium(or alternatively 5 med, 1 heavy and 1 light, but that has other issues) while tanking which significantly changes sets available to use. Of course, even then you still take a significant armor hit unless you start using reinforced and/or nirnhoned traits...requiring a larger stamina pool to make up for less sturdy pieces. Sure, they are significant tank nerfs in general, but it should be interesting, at least the meta might be shaken up a little. I can't say I am happy about the changes, but I have some ideas for workarounds.

SOLDIER_1stClass

Honestly I'd rather they just nerf damage while wearing heavy plain and simple.

Tanks should be taunt and cc kings not running around with 2h getting kills.

It should take at a minimum three dps to burn down a full tank. And at a minimum two tanks to have the damage to bring down medium armor.

Light armor should be laughing in the back as they're murdering groups with aoe but crying in the fetal position if anyone gets close.

Ackwalan

It seems ZOS is trying to break the "can do it all" build". Where a tank build can dps, heal, and lock down everything.

josiahva

Ackwalan wrote: »

It seems ZOS is trying to break the "can do it all" build". Where a tank build can dps, heal, and lock down everything.

Not likely...this drives tanks toward medium armor with no drawbacks focusing on armor reinforcing traits and/or sets. On average, this will increase tank damage. I assume though that you mean PvP...this still changes nothing there but increasing their weapon damage and critical...you will see a resurgence of sets like Fortified Brass and Armor Master in medium weight while at most PvP tanks will drop a proc set...but it won't matter because of the increased weapon damage and crit they will put out.

zvavi

It looks like PvE tanks are getting major buffs in the damage blocked department. dodging looks a bit more annoying, and unlockable damage still looks grim, but there is definitely not enough CP on the PTS to test properly against strong enemies, since to reach the point where you actually make choices instead of being forced into important passives, you need at least 1500 CP, unlike the 810 they let us play with.

bmnoble

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It wasn't enough to butcher all our major buffs in the last patch from 30% to 10%

Now...
+3% increase to roll dodge pr heavy armor piece worn? 15-21% increase! Roll Dodge are pretty much mandary in many HMs.

Nord: Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

Imperial: This passive no longer restores Health, Magicka, and Stamina whenever you deal Direct Damage.

Also noticed all characters take 15% less damage where you moved it from CP to Characters. That's fine if CP still grant a LOT of resistances. Because 15% doesn't even begin to compare with maxes Ironclad + Hardy.......

From reading this my initial reaction is Tanks will be less tanky and cost more to roll dodge....
Or maybe I missed some major Tank buff?

But atleast Vet Frostvault will be a walkover now...

Because we already have too many Tanks right....

I think real tanks have no business doing any roll-dodging. They should have a shield, heavy armor and block the attacks. Never liked the roll-dodge for no damage trick. Also doesn't fit into the role playing aspect of the game. What knights in full plate heavy armor roll dodges? They needed 2-3 helpers just to get up on a horse....

Mobility in Medieval Plate Armor/ Armour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

barney2525

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

It wasn't enough to butcher all our major buffs in the last patch from 30% to 10%

Now...
+3% increase to roll dodge pr heavy armor piece worn? 15-21% increase! Roll Dodge are pretty much mandary in many HMs.

Nord: Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

Imperial: This passive no longer restores Health, Magicka, and Stamina whenever you deal Direct Damage.

Also noticed all characters take 15% less damage where you moved it from CP to Characters. That's fine if CP still grant a LOT of resistances. Because 15% doesn't even begin to compare with maxes Ironclad + Hardy.......

From reading this my initial reaction is Tanks will be less tanky and cost more to roll dodge....
Or maybe I missed some major Tank buff?

But atleast Vet Frostvault will be a walkover now...

Because we already have too many Tanks right....

I think real tanks have no business doing any roll-dodging. They should have a shield, heavy armor and block the attacks. Never liked the roll-dodge for no damage trick. Also doesn't fit into the role playing aspect of the game. What knights in full plate heavy armor roll dodges? They needed 2-3 helpers just to get up on a horse....

Thats all well and good, and applies well as a real life concept

However, if the Devs decide a boss attack is Not allowed to be blocked, how does that fit in with realism? Ya gotta allow some suspension of disbelief and let them have the roll dodge defense.

Grandchamp1989

Of course there's the 5-7% slower when wearing heavy armor nerf too.
So now the Tank will be the slowest team member in the dungeons even though he has to be the first one in...

More annoying than anything...

Revitalize: This passive now increases the resources restored from your fully-charged Heavy Attacks by 2/4% per piece of Heavy Armor worn, rather than 12/25% when wearing 5 pieces or more.

So instead of getting 25% ressource back from heavy attack from wearing 5 pieces we now only get 20% so a 5% nerf to heavy attack ressources aswell.

Why couldn't they make these stupid nerfs affect heavy armor when under the effect of battle spirit?

Constantly PVP nerfs spilling over into PVE....

wheresbes

DO.NOT.TOUCH.NORDS. (unless you're going to buff them, that it)

AyaDark

What is a point to tanks if it dodge?

DD can dodge.

No even 1 reason to play my tank now.

I already tank on DD, now what is point to even enter my main tank character ?

Vampire cloud + shields - much better than block in some situations.

Other - just dodge.

It is NOT OK !

Wolfchild07

wheresbes wrote: »

DO.NOT.TOUCH.NORDS. (unless you're going to buff them, that it)

Nord

Resist Frost:

This passive no longer grants immunity to the Chilled status effect.

Increased the Frost Resistance to 4620, up from 2310.

Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

Kurat

You can thank the pvp tank meta for the nerfs that pve tanks got.
21% roll dodge cost increase is bad but you can adapt your playstyle, use more hp, shields and self heal. Also healers may need to babysit tanks more now.
Tanks have no practice dummies so I test my tanks in vAS. I go in alone and straight to last boss. If i can stay alive, debuff and sustain indefinitely then the build is ready for anything. I just tested my nord dk there today and had no issues.

wheresbes

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Nord

Resist Frost:

This passive no longer grants immunity to the Chilled status effect.

Increased the Frost Resistance to 4620, up from 2310.

Rugged: Reduced the Armor granted from this passive to 2600, down from 3960.

Is this a bad joke?

I couldn't care less about frost resistance, frost damage doesn't seem prevalent in this game at all.

But the change to Rugged is a huge one (and not in a good way). It's the only worthy passive of that race IMO which helps when going light armour. So, they want more variety in armour usage but then nerf a mean to do so?

Really ZOS? really??

caperb

Jaimeh wrote: »

The roll dodge change sucks... why do pve tanks have to suffer from the heavy meta in pvp and all the cyro tanks...

My PvE tank agrees with the first part. Not with the second part though.

The heavy meta in PvP is completely on ZOS their end for adding stuff like malacath and buffing damage proc sets. In the past it has been the same with heavy sets that had the highest damage modifiers.

PvE tanks suffer because of ZOS, not because of PvP players. I don't know how many times it has been suggested that adding a damage debuffs to heavy armour would remove the tank meta in cyro while at the same time keeping the PvE tanks strong...