Nordic__Knights wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Argonian

fits right in with the healer role lol

Argonians were never healers by lore. Why? Because of SELF HEAL racial in skyrim?

Its just zos excuse to make them bad on purpose

Btw even breton, ORC and high elf are better healers ( while high elf is also better damage dealer, stamina race orc got flat spell damage bonus now which is much stronger than argonians heal % buff)

definetly argonians -_- sad and unfortunate but we'll have to wait till zos wakes up and decides to be smart

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Argonian

fits right in with the healer role lol

Argonians were never healers by lore. Why? Because of SELF HEAL racial in skyrim?

Its just zos excuse to make them bad on purpose

Btw even breton, ORC and high elf are better healers ( while high elf is also better damage dealer, stamina race orc got flat spell damage bonus now which is much stronger than argonians heal % buff)

IF YOU TOOK WHAT I SAID TO MEAN THEIR GOOD HEALERS , YOU MISSED MY MEANING
i was saying they are about as GOOD as healers are NEEDED in the game there by making an joke that their seen as an healing race to start with lol

You cannot be surprised i catch on it. Theres enought trolls to say what you said and they really mean it.

Truth is they are not even fit to be healers. Even when you make that excuse about picking race according to role argonians are at bottom.

Only reason people play argonians is role playing. As do i

Lumenn wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Argonians. I dont know why zos hate them

Maybe the devs are old school Dark Elves....they made argonians no better than pocket healers(handbags if you will. And discount ones at that)

But yes Argonian. After they nerfed resources, potion passive was popular. Block doesn't regenerate stamina so potion passive is popular for tanks(despite no extra stam/magicka resists and only 1k health). Argonian has gotten the shaft for awhile. I play them anyway(I think 6-7 of my 10 characters)

I have 10 characters, all argonians :P

Any race other than ork, altmer or dunmer.
But Argonians are the bottom. Still my main and half of my other chars are argonian. Don't understand why so many people hate lizards

Anyron wrote: »

Argonians. I dont know why zos hate them

No - they are by far the fastest swimmers!

Anyron wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Argonian

fits right in with the healer role lol

Argonians were never healers by lore. Why? Because of SELF HEAL racial in skyrim?

Its just zos excuse to make them bad on purpose

Btw even breton, ORC and high elf are better healers ( while high elf is also better damage dealer, stamina race orc got flat spell damage bonus now which is much stronger than argonians heal % buff)

yeah this always bothered me. I want ZOS to really rework their racials to make them more consistent with the rest of the franchise. Funnily enough my single argonian OC is a restoration-focused mage lol but I made her first back during TESIV and these were the racials for argonians in that game:

A hybrid with, in terms of magic, a focus on mysticism and illusion and alchemy. Also stamina-based melee skill bonuses in blade, hand to hand. Should be DPS focused hybrids like dunmer imo



https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).

Which race would you consider good healers then? Which race beats Argonian's 6% healing done?
The only race I can see being a competition to Argonians would be Bretons with their superior magicka sustain. Would that not make Argonians good, if not the best healers?

Being at least second best, can hardly be called 'not good'.

I put this together in another thread. I like how Argonians seem to be dps, and designed for Nightblades, yet somehow aren't on ESO. Love how under Morrowind Ideal Character, it even says "male Argonians can make the finest Nightblades." I see stam/mag dps, not what they have them as now.

Koronach wrote: »

Lets see a compilation of Argonians descriptions and stats over the games. (If I post the pics right, don't usually post pics)
Ok lets look at Arena

Ok now Daggerfall

Morrowind

Oblivion

Skyrim


So what did they do look at Argonians for 10 seconds? They saw the Int across the series and the Restoration bonus in Skyrim and said ok Healers, which I'm fine with. Then they ignored everything else and looked at Daggerfall "Some are regarded well as warriors." Oh look lets make them HP tanks while ignoring the fact every game says Thief or Assassin, makes sense Shadowscales *cough*. Even Morrowinds Ideal Character section says they can make the finest Nightblades. Total disregard for an entire races lore. They were always a Magic and Stamina race and they are trying to shoe horn them into something they were never well known for. (Sorry if the pictures are too small. Right click and open in new window or tab if you have to.)

Dracane wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).

Which race would you consider good healers then? Which race beats Argonian's 6% healing done?
The only race I can see being a competition to Argonians would be Bretons with their superior magicka sustain. Would that not make Argonians good, if not the best healers?

Being at least second best, can hardly be called 'not good'.

@Dracane Altmer, Dunmer and now probably even Orc beat Argonians in healing done with their 258 spell damage unless you reach quite a high spell damage value without that bonus already (which isn't that easy if you are expected to wear different sets to support your group) and Bretons beat them effortlessly at sustain, which is even more important for a healer.
A healer that is out of magicka, cannot keep the group alive and every second spent heavy attacking is a second not using another heal or reapplying another buff/debuff.
And then there is Khajiit who have more healing done through the bonus to critical healing on sets like Hollowfang that provide a bunch of crit and their sustain is not that much lower than Argonians, especially after the most recent nerf to the potion passive.

I'd say it currently looks something like this:
Healer ranking

1. Breton (best)
2. Khajiit/Altmer/Orc?/Dunmer (good)
3. Argonian (decent)
4. Imperial/Nord (niche)
5. Redguard/Bosmer (bad)

So yeah, they are "decent", because they have buffs that benefit healers, but they are rather small compared to what other races provide.

The maths for this are Considering that running too many damage sets will hit the sustain of your group it's probably not worth giving up the flexibility of your group by trying to chase after Altmer/Dunmer rather than just accepting that Argonians are slightly weaker and being the most flexible you can be.
Like I said, they are decent healers. They just aren't the 2nd best choice.

Dracane wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).

Which race would you consider good healers then? Which race beats Argonian's 6% healing done?
The only race I can see being a competition to Argonians would be Bretons with their superior magicka sustain. Would that not make Argonians good, if not the best healers?

Being at least second best, can hardly be called 'not good'.

Dunmer and High Elf extra spell damage +1k max mag differential makes them better, 6% healing done doesn't beat it at all. They are the 4th best and only because they are the last magicka race available. With Orc getting spell damage, they might even be better than Argonians next patch as healers.

Here it's an excelent post by twing1 about healing done/taken vs spell damage.

Here's another topic talking about how Argonians got shafted, and how they "meh" at everything while every other race is good at something.

I think they should receive 129 sp/wp damage, that way they are "ok" at every role but not the best at anything.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).

Which race would you consider good healers then? Which race beats Argonian's 6% healing done?
The only race I can see being a competition to Argonians would be Bretons with their superior magicka sustain. Would that not make Argonians good, if not the best healers?

Being at least second best, can hardly be called 'not good'.

@Dracane Altmer, Dunmer and now probably even Orc beat Argonians in healing done with their 258 spell damage unless you reach quite a high spell damage value without that bonus already (which isn't that easy if you are expected to wear different sets to support your group) and Bretons beat them effortlessly at sustain, which is even more important for a healer.
A healer that is out of magicka, cannot keep the group alive and every second spent heavy attacking is a second not using another heal or reapplying another buff/debuff.
And then there is Khajiit who have more healing done through the bonus to critical healing on sets like Hollowfang that provide a bunch of crit and their sustain is not that much lower than Argonians, especially after the most recent nerf to the potion passive.

I'd say it currently looks something like this:
Healer ranking

1. Breton (best)
2. Khajiit/Altmer/Orc?/Dunmer (good)
3. Argonian (decent)
4. Imperial/Nord (niche)
5. Redguard/Bosmer (bad)

So yeah, they are "decent", because they have buffs that benefit healers, but they are rather small compared to what other races provide.

The maths for this are

129 spell damage breaks even with 4% healing done at 2500 spell damage. So 258 spell damage breaks even with 4% at 5000 spell damage and that divided by 1.5 makes 258 break even with Argonian's 6% at 3333 spell damage, which is quite high for a healer.
Based on this and the stats from my Breton healer, Argonians start being better than Altmer/Dunmer when you have Major and Minor Courage, Major and Minor Sorcery your weapon is golden and you have at least one or two spell damage boni on the sets you are wearing, depending on whether you are getting Major Courage from wearing Spell Power Cure (1) or Olorime (2) or the 2nd healer in the group applying it to you (2).
Martial Knowledge has 2 Spell damage boni, Z'en's has 1, Infallible Mage has 1, Roaring Opportunist has 1, Master Architect has 1. Jorvulds has 0!
The sets you can run are quite limited because Roaring Opportunist and Master Architect you are going to want to run together with Jorvulds which leaves you 1 spell damage bonus short and if you are on duty with applying Major Courage you are probably also going to want to run Jorvuld's. And then we need to consider that Martial Knowledge won't be easy to keep up if your own potion passive gives you too much stamina sustain from constantly drinking potions for Major Sorcery.

Considering that running too many damage sets will hit the sustain of your group it's probably not worth giving up the flexibility of your group by trying to chase after Altmer/Dunmer rather than just accepting that Argonians are slightly weaker and being the most flexible you can be.
Like I said, they are decent healers. They just aren't the 2nd best choice.

Argonians are the 2nd best sustain race though. And sustain is like you said, of major importance. Gaining over 3k to all ressources per potion cycle remains strong. So again, from that perspective, Argonians should effortlessly be 2nd rank after Breton. Argonian also easily beats bretons when it comes to healing potency.

Argonians are great healers in my opinion. Either best or second best all around. Dunmer, Altmer and Orsimer have no magicka restoration at all. And you correctly concluded that healing potency is of secondary importance over sustain.
Argonian definately beats all those races because of their superior sustain alone.

Dracane wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Argonians are however decent healers and decent tanks (decent - not good, but at least not bad).

Which race would you consider good healers then? Which race beats Argonian's 6% healing done?
The only race I can see being a competition to Argonians would be Bretons with their superior magicka sustain. Would that not make Argonians good, if not the best healers?

Being at least second best, can hardly be called 'not good'.

@Dracane Altmer, Dunmer and now probably even Orc beat Argonians in healing done with their 258 spell damage unless you reach quite a high spell damage value without that bonus already (which isn't that easy if you are expected to wear different sets to support your group) and Bretons beat them effortlessly at sustain, which is even more important for a healer.
A healer that is out of magicka, cannot keep the group alive and every second spent heavy attacking is a second not using another heal or reapplying another buff/debuff.
And then there is Khajiit who have more healing done through the bonus to critical healing on sets like Hollowfang that provide a bunch of crit and their sustain is not that much lower than Argonians, especially after the most recent nerf to the potion passive.

I'd say it currently looks something like this:
Healer ranking

1. Breton (best)
2. Khajiit/Altmer/Orc?/Dunmer (good)
3. Argonian (decent)
4. Imperial/Nord (niche)
5. Redguard/Bosmer (bad)

So yeah, they are "decent", because they have buffs that benefit healers, but they are rather small compared to what other races provide.

The maths for this are

129 spell damage breaks even with 4% healing done at 2500 spell damage. So 258 spell damage breaks even with 4% at 5000 spell damage and that divided by 1.5 makes 258 break even with Argonian's 6% at 3333 spell damage, which is quite high for a healer.
Based on this and the stats from my Breton healer, Argonians start being better than Altmer/Dunmer when you have Major and Minor Courage, Major and Minor Sorcery your weapon is golden and you have at least one or two spell damage boni on the sets you are wearing, depending on whether you are getting Major Courage from wearing Spell Power Cure (1) or Olorime (2) or the 2nd healer in the group applying it to you (2).
Martial Knowledge has 2 Spell damage boni, Z'en's has 1, Infallible Mage has 1, Roaring Opportunist has 1, Master Architect has 1. Jorvulds has 0!
The sets you can run are quite limited because Roaring Opportunist and Master Architect you are going to want to run together with Jorvulds which leaves you 1 spell damage bonus short and if you are on duty with applying Major Courage you are probably also going to want to run Jorvuld's. And then we need to consider that Martial Knowledge won't be easy to keep up if your own potion passive gives you too much stamina sustain from constantly drinking potions for Major Sorcery.

Considering that running too many damage sets will hit the sustain of your group it's probably not worth giving up the flexibility of your group by trying to chase after Altmer/Dunmer rather than just accepting that Argonians are slightly weaker and being the most flexible you can be.
Like I said, they are decent healers. They just aren't the 2nd best choice.

Argonians are the 2nd best sustain race though. And sustain is like you said, of major importance. Gaining over 3k to all ressources per potion cycle remains strong. So again, from that perspective, Argonians should effortlessly be 2nd rank after Breton. Argonian also easily beats bretons when it comes to healing potency.

Argonians are great healers in my opinion. Either best or second best all around. Dunmer, Altmer and Orsimer have no magicka restoration at all. And you correctly concluded that healing potency is of secondary importance over sustain.
Argonian definately beats all those races because of their superior sustain alone.

No they aren't. Imperials have better sustain and after the Argonian nerf on PTS, Khajiit probably have more sustain too.
And where Argonians need to wear sets with spell damage boni to break even with Altmer and Dunmer in raw healing power, these races can wear whatever they like since all of the sustain boosting group sets also help the healer in question too, they just don't have the same struggles that Argonians would face when trying to outheal Altmer or Dunmer.

Argonian hands down are the worst, maybe not for tank/healer, but because they are so middle of the road for everything they are beaten by the other 9 races for any one role, and as an argonian main who loves the lore and pretty much everything about them it is so frustrating to see them screwed over time and again.