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Argonian Racial Passives, Mathematical Balance, why Healing Done is a Crap Stat, and Alternatives

HatchetHaro
HatchetHaro
✭✭✭✭✭
With Wrathstone, we've received a full rebalance of the racial passives, and through thorough testing from end-game raiders, the PvE meta has settled in.

Surprise, Argonians don't fit in anywhere.

Okay, some other races are also facing something similar, but ultimately those races are able to still make use of what stats they have to still be extremely viable in certain roles; I'll cover those below.

So, let's talk about Argonian racial passives, why I think they suck, why I know they suck, and what the alternatives could be.

Basic Rundown of PvE Roles
Before I get into this, let me break down the respective roles in the PvE raiding scene right now, and what they require.

Tanks: A supportive role. Their most basic job involves holding aggro on the most dangerous enemies and survive the hits. In the end-game raiding scene, they are supposed to do that on extremely challenging enemies, stack the enemies together into a pile for the DPS to burn down in some cases, and provide group utility that increases the damage output and survivability of the entire group. It is a role that utilizes several different stats, namely Max Health, Max Stamina, and Magicka Recovery. It is also a reactive role, meaning that the effectiveness of a tank lies mostly in their skill and experience with the role rather than their stats.

Healers: A supportive role. Their most basic job is to heal the group and keep them alive. In the end-game raiding scene, they are also highly focused on utility, providing resource-sustain to the group and performing certain trial mechanics so the DPS don't have to. This is also somewhat of a reactive role in that a healer's skill and experience is very important in their effectiveness, but a good chunk of a healer's power also lies in one of their stats: Magicka Recovery. With more Magicka Recovery, a healer is able to dish out more heals and group utility without heavy attacking, and is also able to react more effectively by having enough Magicka to spam burst heals if necessary.

DPS: By far the most ubiquitous role in the game. Their most basic job is to deal damage to anything and everything. In the end-game raiding scene... they are still just supposed to deal damage to anything and everything. In trials, any additional jobs and mechanics they are supposed to perform will always relate, in some way, to their ability to do damage. A DPS utilizes stats that increase their damage output, so Max Magicka, Magicka Recovery, Spell Damage, and Spell Crit for Magicka DPS, and Max Stamina, Stamina Recovery, Weapon Damage, and Weapon Crit for Stamina DPS. It is a stat-based role, in that all the skill that a DPS is required to have is the bare minimum to survive and perform mechanics as well as the ability to perform their rotation of abilities. Ultimately, in the end-game raiding scene where people are reaching the peak of how much DPS they can do, their stats will determine how effective a DPS can be.

The Meta
So let's talk about the meta in the different aspects of the game in PvE right now with each race.

For tanks, the Best-in-Slot race is definitely Nords, followed closely by Imperials. Nords have superior group utility with their hugely-reduced cooldowns on ultimates (Aggressive Horns), and Imperials have the same thing that's slightly toned down along with much more sustain.

For healers, nothing beats Bretons; their sheer sustain is equivalent to >320 base Magicka recovery (means that it's much much more than 320 Magicka recovery after buffs), absolutely unrivaled by any other race. No other race comes near to a Breton's effectiveness.

For Magicka DPS, we have a 3-way tie between Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons; Altmer and Dunmer have a negligible DPS gap between them and currently have the highest raw damage output, and Bretons absolutely shine with their insane Magicka sustain, outshining even Altmer and Dunmer in sustained damage-output on classes that are more resource-intensive (Magsorc and Magplars mainly)

For Stamina DPS, nothing beats Orcs and Dunmer in terms of raw damage output, and Orcs even have 1000 base Max Health for better survivability. While Redguards and Bosmer can perform better than Orcs in terms of sustained damage output on more resource-intensive classes (Stamsorc mainly), an Orc can actually perfectly match a Bosmer in terms of Stamina stats just by replacing a Weapon Damage glyph with a Stamina Recovery glyph, not to mention that a Reduced Feat Cost glyph would be better anyway, and both Redguards and Bosmer can't trade their extra Stamina sustain for more raw damage.

Just to put this into the perspective of all the races and the roles they can do, I have listed them all out here. I have also ranked the roles they can do in terms of Best, Good, and Decent; whatever is not mentioned means that their stats are not good enough.

Altmer: Best for Magicka DPS, Decent for Healing
Bosmer: Good for Stamina DPS
Breton: Best for Magicka DPS, Best for Healing, Decent for Tanking
Dunmer: Best for Magicka DPS, Best for Stamina DPS, Decent for Healing
Redgard: Good for Stamina DPS, Decent for Tanking
Orc: Best for Stamina DPS, Decent for Tanking
Nord: Best for Tanking
Imperial: Best for Tanking, Decent for Stamina DPS
Khajiit: Good for Stamina DPS, Good for Magicka DPS

Last but not least:
Argonian: Decent for Tanking, Decent for Healing

Argonians got Shafted
Here's why I think Argonians are only "Decent" for both Tanking and Healing, and therefore not actually that good at both roles.

Argonians are only decent at tanking at this point because they do not offer any group utility. Yes, their tri-stat potion passive makes sustaining as a tank easy, but in end-game tanking, no one cares for that. I would like to reiterate that tanking, by itself, is a reactive role; this means that people don't have to be the best race in order to be able to properly sustain as a tank. In fact, this is already the case, with many people tanking completely fine on non-BiS races. The best tanks I know ran Orcs, Bosmer, Khajiiti, Nords, even Bretons, and they had absolutely no issue sustaining their own resources. Yeah, the Argonian potion passive makes it easier, but the fact of the matter is that they aren't going to be more useful with that. In that case, Nords and Imperials make for vastly superior tanks simply because of their group utility (ultimate-regeneration) that can not be obtained any other way.

Argonians are also only decent at healing. Let's start with their 6% Healing Done: it is shite. I'm not pulling opinions out of my arse here either; I've talked with healers who have Immortal Redeemer, Gryphon Heart, and Tick Tock Tormentor (the end-game raiding trifecta, as they call it), and they all agree that 6% Healing Done means nothing to them. The truth is that in trials, there's more than enough healing going around for everyone; the healers' main job there is to do just enough healing to keep the team alive and spend the rest of the time performing mechanics and supplying resources to the group through Orbs or Shards.

Besides their Healing Done passive, Argonians also have a measly 88 Magicka/s sustain from their potion passive; that is effectively less than half of what Bretons have for sustain, and sustain is very important for healers. In addition, Bretons also have superior survivability simply from their 2310-4620 Spell Resistance, which is more than the survivability that ~1000 max Health gives for Argonians.

As for DPS, Argonians aren't even anywhere close to being viable. Being a full 4-6% behind other races in terms of damage, either Stamina or Magicka, only means that they're not even considered for that role. Their Healing Done stat guarantees that Argonians will never have enough power for anything other than raw healing, and limits their flexibility and ability to do anything. Compare that to the Spell Damage that Altmer have and you can see why: Spell Damage affects both DPS and healing, whereas Healing Done affects... just healing.

Healing Done is a wasted stat that limits what an Argonian player can do. On paper, it seems like it benefits their Healing and Tanking ability because logically, healers do Healing and tanks can also make use of it for self heals, but in reality, it is entirely useless for both of those roles, since Healers don't actually need additional Healing Done at this point, and Tanks can sustain themselves just fine without that passive and without the potion passive.

Why were Argonians Shafted
Stepping back, I do understand why Argonians are this way: before Wrathstone, they were the best (easiest) for tanking because of their tri-stat sustain back when no race had any group utility passives, and they were also considered among the best in terms of healing, once again, due to their Magicka sustain (Bretons actually had slightly more even before Wrathstone, and many healers considered Bretons to be superior, but it wasn't a significant difference). Most importantly, they were considered overpowered in PvP because their tri-stat potion passive synergized well with Potion Speed glyphs and Clever Alchemist, giving them powerful burst heals, recovery, and damage.

As a guy who runs exclusively Argonians, I believe that most of that Argonians-are-OP sentiment in PvP is overexaggerated; while they were overpowered, most of those cases came from people who got an Argonian opponent down to low health and resources only to be surprised when they popped a potion and got their resources back. That "surprise" psychological factor, in my opinion, contributed much to the nerfs that were brought onto Argonians, and I have no doubts that even with the current nerfs, that sentiment will remain. I believe that if Argonians had a flat 100/s recovery in their resources instead, those people would stop complaining about Argonian sustain in PvP.

There were other factors that made Argonians strong in PvP as well, mainly their Healing Done + Received passive as well as their Disease resistance; all of this contributed a lot to their PvP power, and unfortunately, many people were quick to blame the tri-stat potion passive as the main culprit rather than taking these additional stats into account.

How were Argonians Shafted
Right now, Argonians are nerfed in small ways to each of their stats compared to their Murkmire counterparts. Personally, I'm fine with these nerfs. My biggest gripe is not on the nerfs, but the lack of buffs to what Argonians can actually do.

The thing with the Wrathstone racial changes is that most of them are great. People have more viable options for the roles they want to play, and I am entirely for that. However, what I am not fine with is that Argonians never received the same treatment; other races have been buffed to surpass Argonians at what they used to be meta in, and that leaves Argonians completely non-viable for any role in the PvE scene.

Just for comparison's sake, here are the changes to each of the races in relation to their place in the meta before Wrathstone, ranking them from decent, good, and great:

Altmer - was good for Magicka DPS - now great for Magicka DPS
Bosmer - was decent for Stamina DPS - now good for Stamina DPS
Breton - was decent for Magicka DPS, was great for Healing - now great at Magicka DPS and Healing
Dunmer - was great for Magicka DPS - now great for Magicka and Stamina DPS
Redgard - was great for Stamina DPS - now good for Stamina DPS
Orc - was decent for Stamina DPS - now great for Stamina DPS
Nord - was crap - now great for Tanking
Imperial - was good for Tanking - now great for Tanking
Khajiit - was good for Stamina DPS - now good for Magicka and Stamina DPS

Argonian - was great for Tanking and Healing - now only decent for Tanking and Healing

In terms of "the meta", only Argonians and Redguards were nerfed, but even now Redguards remain a strong contender for Stamina DPS even in terms of resource-heavy classes; Argonians aren't a strong contender for anything.

Inconsistencies in this "Mathematical Balance"
Real quick, just to cover things on the mathematical side of things, all sources of Health in-game are 10% more potent than their equivalent Stamina and Magicka counterparts; traits, attribute points, glyphs, and even food. Unfortunately, this is not reflected in the racial passives, and therefore the passives themselves also become mathematically imbalanced. For example, if a Breton wants to put points/glyphs into Health so they could emulate the stats of an Argonian, the Breton would always end up with either more Health or more Magicka.

In-game food is also a problem. They are not balanced in the same way that racial passives are, in that the more resources are spread out, the less mathematical value they have, and this creates another gameplay inconsistency in that races are not able to fine-tune their stats accordingly through food to make up for the stats that their race doesn't provide or provides too much of for individual roles. ZOS devs talk of "mathematical balance" with the racial passives, but when the same balance is not struck with the food items (11.19 set bonuses equivalent with Purple food vs just 5.17 set bonuses with Green food) as with the rest of the game, players are not able to efficiently sacrifice what extra resource pools they have for stats that would be more useful to them. Ultimately, it just comes down to "Clockwork Citrus Filet is BiS either way whether you are running an Imperial or a Breton Magsorc" simply because Clockwork Citrus Filet is the best food item for any Magicka DPS (unless you're a Breton Magblade in which case just go bi-stat and suffer from only a slight DPS loss rather than even more DPS loss from having too much Magicka sustain).

Unshafting Argonians
In terms of game development, balance can be a tricky thing. However, in the case of Argonians, it really doesn't have to be. We have a lot to work with in terms of different types of stats.

Q: How can we replace Argonians' Healing Done so they can become more viable for any role without making them too OP for PvP?
A: Replace the stuff that contributes to their PvP power, and/or give them stats that don't boost their PvP power by too much.

My first thought, real quick, is to swap their Disease Resistance with Bosmers' Poison Resistance; both sides were bitching about losing the resistance that the other race got to keep anyways, so swapping these would be a win for both sides, and will make Argonians have less of a presence in PvP, giving us more room to work with their stats without pushing their PvP prowess too far.

My next step would be to give Argonians +1000 max Stamina as well just to balance out their resource pools; if Khajiiti get to have tri-stat resources, then there is no reason Argonians shouldn't, too. Once we get there, we have a good baseline of where we want to be for Argonians at least in terms of DPS: Dunmer get to have the most damage but the least sustain, Argonians could have the least damage (relatively; they still need a damage buff) but most sustain and survivability, and Khajiiti could sit right in between. Basically, Argonians would still have less damage than Khajiiti.

We also have to see what goal we can set for Argonians in terms of how they can perform in supportive roles. Right now, Bretons are already overbearing in terms of their Healing effectiveness, and Nords are already best in terms of group utility. We could give them a passive that makes them more attractive for Healing and Tanking without completely overthrowing Bretons and Nords in those roles. Discussing this with a few friends (all top-tier raiders), we believe that a healthy place for them would be to still have less sustain than Bretons but a bit more group utility to make up for it.

The last step, of course, is the stats themselves. In fact, there are so many choices for different types of stats in this game, which kind of makes the whole "Healing Done" situation laughable.

Let's start with the support passives; these are the ones that will make them more attractive as Tanks and Healers without making them overwhelmingly powerful or BiS. I've discussed this with my healer friends as options to make Argonians more attractive for healing. Any single one of these could work, and numbers can be tweaked for balance.

Pick ONE:
  • Any Major or Minor Buff you apply has a 2s longer duration.
    • This would make the Major Force buff from Aggressive Horn last a little bit longer, though not to an OP extent. This could also be pretty good for DPS running Master Architect or War Machine. Basically, Nords can pump out more buffs, but Argonians can provide buffs that last slightly longer.
  • Any player you heal restores 500 Stamina or Magicka, whichever one is higher. 10s cooldown, individual to each player.
    • This equates to about 50 Stamina or Magicka restored per second for any DPS being healed; big enough to be noticeable, but not so big to be significant.
    • EDIT: Forgot to mention that this shouldn't stack, as in, the cooldown on each player is global, so having 2 Argonian healers in the group wouldn't be BiS.
  • Enchantments are 20% more potent. Reduce cooldown on Alchemical Poisons by 1s.
    • My estimates say that enchantments that are 40% more potent would put them in a perfectly healthy place in terms of DPS, but that's too much group utility for tanks or healers. Rather, I think 20% would be a healthy place for this passive, where it's potent enough to be decent for group utility in terms of Crusher. Just to make sure it's not too powerful, it can be additive to Infused and Torug's Pact rather than multiplicative; will have to check the stats properly to see how they stack.
    • I am concerned about the Alchemical Poison part, though. It seems to be a good buff to Stamina DPS, but in PvP it may be too powerful.
    • EDIT: Forgot to mention, I meant weapon enchantments. If this passive applied to all of your enchantments, it would be too OP. In that case, could bring it down to about 10% or even 5%. OR we can still leave it at 20% and we don't have to go for a damage passive below.

There's also the damage passives. For this, numbers can also be tweaked, but mainly I've balanced them in a way that they will be good enough but also not too powerful whether they are paired with the above support passives or not. Can also lock these behind another event, such as granting these stats as a buff upon receiving any healing for 5 seconds.

Pick ONE:
  • Increase your Weapon and Spell Damage by 200
    • Just a generic damage increase; also increases healing done. One concern is that it might be too powerful paired with the Enchantment stat above, so in that case just make it 150 Weapon and Spell Damage. Another concern is that it is too generic; other races already have the same kind of damage buff. I have more below.
  • Increase your Weapon and Spell Critical by 5%
    • Khajiiti used to have 8%, and that was slightly too powerful; I've calculated 7% to be a bit more of a healthy number for a Critical Chance passive, but since Argonians have a tiny bit more resources and sustain, I think 5% would put Argonians at a pretty good spot. The plus side to this is that it will also not affect their PvP prowess as significantly as raw Spell Damage. Lower this to 4% when paired with the Enchantment passive above.
  • Increase your Weapon and Spell Critical by 3%, and Critical Damage and Healing by 5%
    • I didn't go for raw 10% Critical Damage and Healing like it is for Khajiiti because I believe it would be too powerful for PvP; a balance between Crit Chance and Crit Damage is much more suitable anyways.

Again, any of these numbers can be tweaked, and contrary to popular belief, I don't want Argonians to be overpowered. However, their current passives absolutely do need another pass.

Other Races
I do care about game balance. While this post is mainly about Argonians, I'm also not going to completely leave all of the other races untouched.

Bretons: too much sustain; they have >320 base Magicka recovery right now; bump that down to a flat 258 base Magicka recovery or whatever the equivalent is so they could be mathematically equal to Bosmer. Still much more sustain than Argonians, so definitely still BiS for healers.
  • EDIT: On second thoughts, people do have a point about their additional sustain making for more interesting setups with bi-stat food. I personally do still like the idea of them being better on resource-heavy classes while Altmer and Dunmer are more suitable for burst damage or sustainable classes/builds. Still, the equivalent of >320 base Magicka recovery is still too much, and I would personally bring that down to about a 290 base Magicka recovery equivalent.

Nords: could definitely use a Stamina buff to make them viable as DPS; give them 2000 max Stamina instead of just 1500, and give them an equivalent of 200 Stamina recovery, such as 1000 Stamina restored upon taking or dealing damage with a cooldown of 10 seconds; they'd still be behind Redguards and Bosmer in terms of DPS but it won't be that far behind.

Khajiit: 10% Critical Damage is too much PvP-wise and too little PvE-wise; make that 3-4% Crit Chance and 5% Crit Damage. Would also balance out those passive-efficiency curves that you get with varying Crit Chances for either of those stats individually.

Altmer: please just replace their "sustain" passive; it's on the same level as Healing Done on Argonians: niche, overly situational, and completely crap overall. Heck, increase the shields they apply by 10%; at least that would be great survival utility for tanks, healers, and DPS.

Bosmer: swap resistances with Argonians; this way, both Argonian and Bosmeri lore nuts win. I mean, it makes sense; Bosmers are cannibals and hunters so it makes sense they get to have more contact with diseases foreign to their bodies, and Argonians are mentioned in-game to have innate poison resistance. No-brainer, honestly.
  • EDIT: In addition, they probably should have their base Stamina Recovery buffed to about 290. Right now, they are completely equal to Orcs in terms of Stamina power, but an Orc is able to swap a Weapon Damage Jewelry glyph out for Stamina Recovery and perfectly mimic a Bosmer's Stamina stats, but a Bosmer is not able to do the reverse because Stamina builds typically don't use Stamina Recovery glyphs. Instead, with extra mathematical power in their Stamina Recovery, they will be able to cement their positions as better than Orcs on certain classes while Orcs are still king on other classes.

EDIT: Redguards: Exact same thing as Bosmer above: make their sustain passives equivalent to about 290 base Stamina Recovery. I personally haven't tested them as to how much exact sustain their passives give them, so I can't say for sure how they actually fare compared to Bosmer; I just know they're similar.

Final Word
There is something to be said about why this is such a big subject for me right now, but ultimately it comes down to a combination of a ton of game design choices that ZOS made that can not be changed now. So many of my gripes with racial passives have something to do with the existence of trial scoreboards and the domination of DPS as the main role in the game. I mean, if those are removed, we really don't have to care, but while competition is still supported in-game, people will always find ways to min-max, so at this point, it is best to take better care when balancing things as Elder-Scrolls-identity-important as races.
Edited by HatchetHaro on March 27, 2019 3:53AM
  • lassitershawn
    lassitershawn
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    Pick ONE:
    • Any Major or Minor Buff you apply has a 2s longer duration.
      • This would make the Major Force buff from Aggressive Horn last a little bit longer, though not to an OP extent. This could also be pretty good for DPS running Master Architect or War Machine. Basically, Nords can pump out more buffs, but Argonians can provide buffs that last slightly longer.
    • Any player you heal restores 500 Stamina or Magicka, whichever one is higher. 10s cooldown, individual to each player.
      • This equates to about 50 Stamina or Magicka restored per second for any DPS being healed; big enough to be noticeable, but not so big to be significant.
    • Enchantments are 20% more potent. Reduce cooldown on Alchemical Poisons by 1s.
      • My estimates say that enchantments that are 40% more potent would put them in a perfectly healthy place in terms of DPS, but that's too much group utility for tanks or healers. Rather, I think 20% would be a healthy place for this passive, where it's potent enough to be decent for group utility in terms of Crusher. Just to make sure it's not too powerful, it can be additive to Infused and Torug's Pact rather than multiplicative; will have to check the stats properly to see how they stack.
      • I am concerned about the Alchemical Poison part, though. It seems to be a good buff to Stamina DPS, but in PvP it may be too powerful.

    There's also the damage passives. For this, numbers can also be tweaked, but mainly I've balanced them in a way that they will be good enough but also not too powerful whether they are paired with the above support passives or not. Can also lock these behind another event, such as granting these stats as a buff upon receiving any healing for 5 seconds.

    Pick ONE:
    • Increase your Weapon and Spell Damage by 200
      • Just a generic damage increase; also increases healing done. One concern is that it might be too powerful paired with the Enchantment stat above, so in that case just make it 150 Weapon and Spell Damage. Another concern is that it is too generic; other races already have the same kind of damage buff. I have more below.
    • Increase your Weapon and Spell Critical by 5%
      • Khajiiti used to have 8%, and that was slightly too powerful; I've calculated 7% to be a bit more of a healthy number for a Critical Chance passive, but since Argonians have a tiny bit more resources and sustain, I think 5% would put Argonians at a pretty good spot. The plus side to this is that it will also not affect their PvP prowess as significantly as raw Spell Damage. Lower this to 4% when paired with the Enchantment passive above.
    • Increase your Weapon and Spell Critical by 3%, and Critical Damage and Healing by 5%
      • I didn't go for raw 10% Critical Damage and Healing like it is for Khajiiti because I believe it would be too powerful for PvP; a balance between Crit Chance and Crit Damage is much more suitable anyways.

    Bretons: too much sustain; they have >320 base Magicka recovery right now; bump that down to a flat 258 base Magicka recovery or whatever the equivalent is so they could be mathematically equal to Bosmer. Still much more sustain than Argonians, so definitely still BiS for healers.

    Nords: could definitely use a Stamina buff to make them viable as DPS; give them 2000 max Stamina instead of just 1500, and give them an equivalent of 200 Stamina recovery, such as 1000 Stamina restored upon taking or dealing damage with a cooldown of 10 seconds; they'd still be behind Redguards and Bosmer in terms of DPS but it won't be that far behind.

    Khajiit: 10% Critical Damage is too much PvP-wise and too little PvE-wise; make that 3-4% Crit Chance and 5% Crit Damage. Would also balance out those passive-efficiency curves that you get with varying Crit Chances for either of those stats individually.

    Altmer: please just replace their "sustain" passive; it's on the same level as Healing Done on Argonians: niche, overly situational, and completely crap overall. Heck, increase the shields they apply by 10%; at least that would be great survival utility for tanks, healers, and DPS.

    Bosmer: swap resistances with Argonians; this way, both Argonian and Bosmeri lore nuts win. I mean, it makes sense; Bosmers are cannibals and hunters so it makes sense they get to have more contact with diseases foreign to their bodies, and Argonians are mentioned in-game to have innate poison resistance. No-brainer, honestly.

    I fully support buffing argonians. I think ideal DPS passives for mag would be altmer/dunmer with most raw damage, breton with most sustain, and argonian somewhere inbetween. Any of the support passives for argonians would help them on support and would totally make them viable again. You would have a choice between breton/argo on healer with breton being the more selfish option and argonian having better buff potential and argonians would become a viable tank race again.

    MY PREFERED ARGO BUFFS WOULD BE: 5% Crit or 200 SD, 2s longer duration on major/minor buffs. This puts them at a good middle ground with higher base damage than breton and higher sustain/HP than altmer (just by a small amount in both directions, good middle ground). 2s longer duration on buffs would be a clear buff for support roles (including Major Slayer, cool for DPS as well). You'd still have less sustain than breton by quite a bit, less tankiness than nord/imp by quite a bit. AT THE END OF THE DAY, I'm not sure it matters what the numbers on the buffs should be, just that they happen. Argo is bad in all roles rn, it shouldn't be. The 2s buffs MIGHT be OP (don't think so personally), ZoS can just tune it down if they + general consensus agrees.

    I disagree with the breton nerf. It is already pretty tight with bifood in some content (on sorc I still have to do 7-8 heavy attacks in ~6:30 vAS +2 pulls with great orb and symphony support which is about as optimal as it gets). If breton lost the ability to competitively do bifood and had to use clockwork it would just have overkill sustain (far far overkill on magblades) with much lower damage than its competitors. I think the buffs to argo put it in a good place support and DPS wise compared to breton and are enough. If breton sustain was to be nerfed I would say knock off the 100 recovery and replace it with spell damage or more max mag.

    I agree with the nord and maybe altmer changes. Giving nord stam regen wouldn't unbalance tanks because much of your time (usually) is spent blocking. Giving altmer shield strength would be ok IMO, I'm not even using a shield on my sorc in AS and CR and still feel extremely tanky but I'm honestly not sure altmer needs any buffs they seem plenty strong.

    The khajiit change I think would be good.

    If bosmer and redguard are supposed to be on-par with breton sustain but on the stamina side maybe up the sustain a little bit. Orc is definitely far and above the stamina winner right now so I see no problem with doing this (not specifically mentioned by OP but adding it anyways).
    Edited by lassitershawn on March 25, 2019 8:15PM
    William Thorne (main) - Breton Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    Erik Ironskin - Nord Dragonknight Tank - EP NA
    Venasa Viri - Dunmer Nightblade DPS - EP NA
    Shade of Relequen - Altmer Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    Astrid Winterborn - Breton Warden Tank - EP NA
    Saint Llothis the Pious - Orc Nightblade DPS - EP NA

    Immortal Redeemer x8, Gryphon Heart x4, Tick-Tock Tormentor x2

    Nightfighters - Lassi's Rock Collection - Factotum
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    ✭✭
    I can't agree with your post enough Hatchet. I literally could not have said it better (as I'm not the best at explaining things).

    But we definitely have seen that all the drama about Argonians wasn't for nothing. All the end-game players that said races won't matter much ended up changing their stam DDs to Orc and many changed their Argonian tanks to Nords, I have also seen several healers go Breton. As I said a million times during the PTS - this didn't balance the races, but only shifted the imbalance around. At the most, the place Argonians ended up in according to others was essentially "good enough not to complain," when in reality it wasn't, because that last patch was about balance and zos failed. Most you can argue is the flat stat changes made the gaps between races closer, but they could have done that and changed nothing else about races and achieved the same thing.

    I will also say that your are 100% right about the perception problem of the potion passive in PvP. As someone who has played the same exact builds after changing from a meta race to argonian (back when I decided I would go full argonian), it's not as strong as some people think it is, especially when you look at some of what you gave up going from the former race to argonian. I'm not trying to make the argument that the passive is terrible, just that it's not so OP that others try and make it out to be.

    I've also tried the whole potion cool down build to make the most of the passive and again, not that great. As a DPS it's not an option to give up that much base stat power to run those enchants and as a support, you give up flat regen or block cost to run that build and end up creating an artificial need to drink pots more often that you'd normally need to and truly any race would benefit from drinking tri pots or whatever mix of pots you need that often as you will usually be over filling your stats simply b/c one stat is low. Also: it gets very, very expensive.

    On the changes/ideas you offered:

    They definitely should have a flat stam bonus. It's been pretty sad seeing several other DDs that are in more meta builds have as much or more health than my Argonian DD when having higher health was supposed to be the benefit of the race combined with sustain to make up for no dps buffs. Now that other races have the health, Argonians should have that same balance with adding base stam.

    I really like the idea of adding 2s to buff uptimes. That's a pretty interesting utility that could help even if you are alone, would be solid for the group even in non support roles and also be redundant in some instances so not too OP. It's not too strong and it's very interesting.

    I also like the idea of swapping the poison/disease resist with bosmer. Makes more sense, and though it would suck PvP wise, it would probably make both sides happier and as I said, just makes more sense with the game lorewise.

    I also think adding weapon and spell crit to be the most interesting option in that category you offered. I'd even say the 4% no matter what it's paired with and having a little crit bonus could be useful to support and still offer something interesting to a DD build that isn't just about flat damage increases and definitely isn't over powered.

    Even with these changes and the resource management from the potion passive we'd still be behind all the meta races at any DD role, mostly equal for tanking, and more arguable for healing.

    On other races:

    Pretty much agree with you here as well, only thing I was surprised it was the absence of Orc. They are a bit too strong imo. If you see everyone running to swap to that and it's the go to for every stam build and for PvP, you know something is tweaked a bit too much. Not staying they should be treated like Argonians were and hammered into nothing, but a couple small tweaks probably should be made.

    And definitely agree on Khajiit, the change from crit chance to crit damage seemed out of left field right before PTS ended. As soon as I saw their changes I thought they should have just lowered the crit chance a bit and added crit damage as well, having neither as high as it was, but would give a bonus that would end up being slightly more consistent throughout a fight, but still have a little of that crit RNG feeling, but with less ups and downs.
    Xaraan • NA • PC • AD • Argonian (x15 ) • 3/30/2014
    Xaraan - (Grand Master Crafter) - NB-Tank
    Xa-Raan - (Sun's Dusk Reaper) - Vampire Magicka-Nightblade
    Xaraan-dar - (Master Thief) - Stamina-Nightblade
    Xaraanosaurus - (Hist Shadow) - DK-Tank
    Xãraan - (Forge Breaker) - Magicka-DK
    Xa Raan - (Shehai Shatterer) - Stamina-DK
    Xaraanosaur - (Shadow Breaker) - Templar-Tank
    Xåraan - (Monster Hunter) - Magicka-Templar
    Xaraana - (Explorer) - Stamina-Templar
    Xaraanodon - (Ophidian Overlord) - Warden-Tank
    Xäraan - (Master Angler) - Magicka-Warden
    Xâraan - (Paragon) - Stamina-Warden
    Xaraanok - (Centurion) - Sorc-Tank
    Xaraanosorcus - (Magnanamous)- Magicka-Sorc
    Xa'Raan - (Apex Predator) - WW Stamina-Sorc
  • DreadDaedroth
    DreadDaedroth
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    They should revert the changes they made ( Poison immunity back and healing received overall).
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Yeah they shouldn’t have touched their healing passives at all, needs to be reverted. They also need to go back on the immunity changes.
    Ebonheart Pact: Templar - Overlord - Knight Paladin Tiberium Aka The Golden Saint

  • Koronach
    Koronach
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    I definitely wouldn't mind a dps passive. ESO's very lore states be it lore book or npc dialogue, Argonians are immune to disease and highly resistant to poisons. They should have poison resistance at least to go with the disease passive. ZOS seriously can't dispute the lore in their own game.
  • D0PAMINE
    D0PAMINE
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    Great thread @HatchetHaro im all for this
    I produce Hardstyle, Hard Dance and Trance.
  • Kurat
    Kurat
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    Argonians got nerfed because pvp kids were crying OP in forums. Now lizards are just ok race for pvp but totally useless in pve. Why would anyone pick Argonian for anything now except for RP.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    They should revert the changes they made ( Poison immunity back and healing received overall).
    Yeah they shouldn’t have touched their healing passives at all, needs to be reverted. They also need to go back on the immunity changes.

    Honestly, it wouldn't do much other than buff their PvP ability back to their old power. It's just a stat that is not necessary outside of PvP, and since PvP is almost entirely reliant on player skill rather than stats, the whole discussion just becomes moot.

    My focus, at this point, is just to make them viable for PvE without buffing their already-strong PvP ability.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Great post. Love the detail and you seem to have put actual effort into the maths to make it balanced. The foundation in lore seems a bit lacking but it's alright for the most part. The idea to boost their damage at the enchantments/poisons is my favorite suggestion (although it may need tweaking) and at least regarding the poisons it is very lore friendly.
    The resistance swapping idea is good too, since people have been making arguments all over about Argonians being resistant to poison even as plot related information in certain ESO quests and carnivores typically having more white blood cells, thus representing the Bosmer's Green pact. However if you take the lore religiously, both races are immune to both. Argonians lost the poison resistance only as recently as Skyrim while Bosmer have been resistant to disease since Morrowind and to both since Skyrim.
    The ideas for the other races are more or less alright too, however I am not in favor of nerfing Bretons. They only get 100 flat recovery and the rest is in their %. It's pretty much all they have and right now they are in a healthy spot. No need to break something that works.
    And while we are at it, I wish Argonians had a bonus to stealth in there somewhere and Bosmer would get theirs back too. Argonians have been sneaky in pretty much every Elder Scrolls game, just not in ESO. How about "Poisoner: Increases alchemical potency by a balanced amount X. Reduces the radius in which you can be detected by 3 meters." Would fit neatly into the same passive, but that may just be asking too much.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.
    Sadly, the current developer's way of thinking seems to be that no two races can share a single bonus because that's "bad design" for their vision.

    Khajiit had stealth, Bosmer had stealth. Devs can't have that, so they rip stealth off of Bosmer. Bretons had magic sustain, Altmer had (not as much) magic sustain. Devs can't have that, so they give Altmer stamina regen instead.

    See the pattern here? This wrathstone patch has been a complete disaster in terms of balance and an absolute joke lore-wise.

    Balance wise I can't really complain other than Argonians being in a pretty bad spot right now. I guess Bosmer, Redguard and Khajiit are lacking behind Dunmer and Orc a bit, but generally the gap from best to worst closed and nobody really has to worry about getting kicked from a raid for having the wrong race.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.
    Sadly, the current developer's way of thinking seems to be that no two races can share a single bonus because that's "bad design" for their vision.

    Khajiit had stealth, Bosmer had stealth. Devs can't have that, so they rip stealth off of Bosmer. Bretons had magic sustain, Altmer had (not as much) magic sustain. Devs can't have that, so they give Altmer stamina regen instead.

    See the pattern here? This wrathstone patch has been a complete disaster in terms of balance and an absolute joke lore-wise.

    Balance wise I can't really complain other than Argonians being in a pretty bad spot right now. I guess Bosmer, Redguard and Khajiit are lacking behind Dunmer and Orc a bit, but generally the gap from best to worst closed and nobody really has to worry about getting kicked from a raid for having the wrong race.

    Actually, the gap between best to worst has widened. I've done the testing on Magplar; for Murkmire, it was a 5.7% gap between best and worst, and that gap widened up to 6.9% for Wrathstone.

    However, if you're only thinking in terms of "the DPS races", then yeah the gap has closed; at that point, Nords and Argonians become the worst off.

    The whole "getting kicked from a raid for having the wrong race" sentiment is still very much around. It's just that a few more races are accepted, is all.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on March 26, 2019 3:00AM
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    ✭✭
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.
    Sadly, the current developer's way of thinking seems to be that no two races can share a single bonus because that's "bad design" for their vision.

    Khajiit had stealth, Bosmer had stealth. Devs can't have that, so they rip stealth off of Bosmer. Bretons had magic sustain, Altmer had (not as much) magic sustain. Devs can't have that, so they give Altmer stamina regen instead.

    See the pattern here? This wrathstone patch has been a complete disaster in terms of balance and an absolute joke lore-wise.

    Balance wise I can't really complain other than Argonians being in a pretty bad spot right now. I guess Bosmer, Redguard and Khajiit are lacking behind Dunmer and Orc a bit, but generally the gap from best to worst closed and nobody really has to worry about getting kicked from a raid for having the wrong race.

    Actually, the gap between best to worst actually widened. I've done the testing on Magplar; for Murkmire, it was a 5.7% gap between best and worst, and that gap widened up to 6.9% for Wrathstone.

    However, if you're only thinking in terms of "the DPS races", then yeah the gap has closed; at that point, Nords and Argonians become the worst off.

    The whole "getting kicked from a raid for having the wrong race" sentiment is still very much around. It's just that a few more races are accepted, is all.

    But not within the same category, right? I don't have that stuff memorized anymore to be honest, so I am just repeating what others said.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • twing1_
    twing1_
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    Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

    I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

    This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.
    Sadly, the current developer's way of thinking seems to be that no two races can share a single bonus because that's "bad design" for their vision.

    Khajiit had stealth, Bosmer had stealth. Devs can't have that, so they rip stealth off of Bosmer. Bretons had magic sustain, Altmer had (not as much) magic sustain. Devs can't have that, so they give Altmer stamina regen instead.

    See the pattern here? This wrathstone patch has been a complete disaster in terms of balance and an absolute joke lore-wise.

    Balance wise I can't really complain other than Argonians being in a pretty bad spot right now. I guess Bosmer, Redguard and Khajiit are lacking behind Dunmer and Orc a bit, but generally the gap from best to worst closed and nobody really has to worry about getting kicked from a raid for having the wrong race.

    Actually, the gap between best to worst actually widened. I've done the testing on Magplar; for Murkmire, it was a 5.7% gap between best and worst, and that gap widened up to 6.9% for Wrathstone.

    However, if you're only thinking in terms of "the DPS races", then yeah the gap has closed; at that point, Nords and Argonians become the worst off.

    The whole "getting kicked from a raid for having the wrong race" sentiment is still very much around. It's just that a few more races are accepted, is all.

    But not within the same category, right? I don't have that stuff memorized anymore to be honest, so I am just repeating what others said.

    I'm not sure I understand.

    If by "same category" you mean between DPS overall, fewer people are going to be kicked from groups because there are more viable options for either Stamina or Magicka DPS. However, once you separate them off, you'll realize that whoever is running an Altmer stamDK is still going to be shunned for doing so. The end-game groups are still going to *** at Khajiiti stamblades simply because "Orcs are BiS".
  • Roboplus
    Roboplus
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    You've voiced the sentiment of argonians very well. They need a buff. You were just missing the mathematical reason why.
    The current calculations for Argonian racial passives (which are a lot easier to calculate than, say, Bosmer) puts them at nearly 8.5 of the ideal 6.5 goal. Which makes them mathematically (if you discount Bosmer) still the most overtuned race, same as before the changes. That's why they got buffed so much in v4.3.2. During 4.3.0 they were actually closer to the other races based on ZoS set bonus values (somewhere around 7.0, I think), but woefully under-performed (opposed to now, where it's only minor).

    The idea of boosting the 2% Healing Done set bonus to 4 and reducing Argonian's Healing Done from a triple set bonus to a double is just to bring them closer in line with the other races (placing them around 7.5, under Dunmer, Orc, and Khajiit) and to make the Healing Done set bonus more valuable for everyone.

    Argonians would suddenly have the strongest heals in the game (for all that's worth versus Breton's effortless sustain), but they wouldn't get a new set bonus out of it.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    ✭✭✭
    Roboplus wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    You've voiced the sentiment of argonians very well. They need a buff. You were just missing the mathematical reason why.
    The current calculations for Argonian racial passives (which are a lot easier to calculate than, say, Bosmer) puts them at nearly 8.5 of the ideal 6.5 goal. Which makes them mathematically (if you discount Bosmer) still the most overtuned race, same as before the changes. That's why they got buffed so much in v4.3.2. During 4.3.0 they were actually closer to the other races based on ZoS set bonus values (somewhere around 7.0, I think), but woefully under-performed (opposed to now, where it's only minor).

    The idea of boosting the 2% Healing Done set bonus to 4 and reducing Argonian's Healing Done from a triple set bonus to a double is just to bring them closer in line with the other races (placing them around 7.5, under Dunmer, Orc, and Khajiit) and to make the Healing Done set bonus more valuable for everyone.

    Argonians would suddenly have the strongest heals in the game (for all that's worth versus Breton's effortless sustain), but they wouldn't get a new set bonus out of it.

    I would personally like to know how you went about calculating the value of Argonian's Potion Passive.
    Argonian forever
  • BahometZ
    BahometZ
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    I agree with so much here. I want this thread under my pillow at night.

    I'm not sure about touching other races, maybe orcs because they are just too obvious a first choice for stam dps, and the Altmer regen passive is plain weird for a race steeped in magic, but other races are looking good right now. Overall I like that there are so many options now. Khajiit is even a good option for heals, what with crit healing being a thing.

    OP's point about Argonian PvP complaints ring true for me. In PvP most people get into a hyper-competitive mind-set and when something doesn't die when it's supposed to, a sense of outrage grows. That potion passive can be frustrating when you think you have someone in their death-throes. But there's a real lack of perspective, and everyone wants things their way. The price of that potion resource save comes in other aspects. I had an Argonian templar healer and yeah, I was hard to kill, usually took a small team to wear me down, but were they dying? Was I hurting them? No. I was just annoying them. It's that annoyance that people carried away with them. I wasn't dying the way they wanted me to.

    Oh, and I changed to Breton, simply because in PvE Argonians used to be ok at DPS, and now are tied last. Sorry not sorry.
    Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)
  • SpringEternal
    SpringEternal
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    Argonians should have poison resistance back in addition to disease resistance, sure, but not at the expense of Bosmers. That would be like Bosmer players advocating to remove stealth from Khajiits.

    I've heard (and swear I remember reading in one of the books somewhere, though I'm having trouble finding it) that argonians resort to mithridatism (poisoning themselves) in order to build their immunity to poison.

    This implies that they don't innately possess resistances to poison in the same way they've naturally evolved to be immune to diseases.

    Hmm...I tried looking, but couldn't find anything definitive. There's an Argonian in the Dark Brotherhood, Green-Venom-Tongue, that references this. It seems like a jest though: "Aren't you familiar with the cherished Black Marsh custom? Consuming various venomous concoctions to bolster our natural immunity? I drank so much my tongue turned green! Ha! The new initiates fall for that every time!"

    The Miredancers drink tons of Hist sap to boost their powers. Drinking too much gives them sap-poisoning with fun side effects like "unbidden hallucinations," "golden tongue" and "bark-scale."

    A Culinary Adventure, vol. 4, mentions a famous Argonian dish called the Aojee-Saka. It's actually two dishes in one. Each dish is poisonous but also serves as the antidote to the other. Apparently, even the Argonian chef avoids it because of how dangerous it is. The author of the book ends up dying... "Too much toad." :D
  • Roboplus
    Roboplus
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    I would personally like to know how you went about calculating the value of Argonian's Potion Passive.

    Not my calculations. Google Sheets credits "muh hoeppy", but I'm not sure where I found it- here or on Reddit.

    However, seems to be a direct conversion into Resource recovery per second. If true:

    4000 / 45 = 88.888 x 2 (because the Resource Recovery stat only applies once every 2 seconds) = 177.777 / 129 (the Resource Recovery value for Stam/Mag set pieces) = 1.38 set piece value for Stam and Mag each, which is close to what they got.

    Now, it's possible ZoS went by Shacklebreaker rules and the Stam/Mag values are combined, which would reduce the 8.4 value down to around 7.0. How likely one thinks that might be is up to them.
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
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    I believe that if Argonians had a flat 100/s recovery in their resources instead, those people would stop complaining about Argonian sustain in PvP.

    Khajiit have +85 Magicka and Stamina Base Recovery, and they're not considered overpowered.

    My prefered choices would be:
    • Any Major or Minor Buff you apply has a 2s longer duration
    • Increase Magicka and Stamina Recovery by 100 or Increase Spell and Weapon Damage by 200, the effects are switched whenever you use a potion.

    @Roboplus
    Roboplus wrote: »
    Not my calculations. Google Sheets credits "muh hoeppy", but I'm not sure where I found it- here or on Reddit.

    However, seems to be a direct conversion into Resource recovery per second. If true:

    4000 / 45 = 88.888 x 2 (because the Resource Recovery stat only applies once every 2 seconds) = 177.777 / 129 (the Resource Recovery value for Stam/Mag set pieces) = 1.38 set piece value for Stam and Mag each, which is close to what they got.

    Now, it's possible ZoS went by Shacklebreaker rules and the Stam/Mag values are combined, which would reduce the 8.4 value down to around 7.0. How likely one thinks that might be is up to them.

    You forgot Recovery bonus (CP, passives, buffs)

    177.777 is buffed recovery
    129 set bonus is unbuffed recovery

    Without buffs, the bonus to recovery goes from 30% to 60% for the primary resource (CP, skill lines passives)
    And from 0% to 30% for the secondary resource (skill lines passives)
    Buffs provide 30% bonus.

    Equivalence
    177.777 buffed recovery / 190% = 93.6 unbuffed recovery
    177.777 buffed recovery / 160% = 111.1 unbuffed recovery
    177.777 buffed recovery / 130% = 136.8 unbuffed recovery
    177.777 buffed recovery / 100% = 177.8 unbuffed recovery
    Edited by Kulvar on March 26, 2019 11:00AM
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • HappyLittleTree
    HappyLittleTree
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    Can we make him our official Race Rep[Argonian]? @ZOS_GinaBruno
    Edited by HappyLittleTree on March 26, 2019 11:01AM
    Thuu chakkuth lod Hajhiit c’oo? Hajhiit gortsuquth gorihuth thuu gooluthduj thdeitoluu!

    XBox-EU
  • Nerftheforums
    Nerftheforums
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    You are a bit late, aren't you?
  • zaria
    zaria
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    ✭✭✭
    Roboplus wrote: »
    I would personally like to know how you went about calculating the value of Argonian's Potion Passive.

    Not my calculations. Google Sheets credits "muh hoeppy", but I'm not sure where I found it- here or on Reddit.

    However, seems to be a direct conversion into Resource recovery per second. If true:

    4000 / 45 = 88.888 x 2 (because the Resource Recovery stat only applies once every 2 seconds) = 177.777 / 129 (the Resource Recovery value for Stam/Mag set pieces) = 1.38 set piece value for Stam and Mag each, which is close to what they got.

    Now, it's possible ZoS went by Shacklebreaker rules and the Stam/Mag values are combined, which would reduce the 8.4 value down to around 7.0. How likely one thinks that might be is up to them.
    Pretty sure they use Shacklebreaker rules, look at Dunmer and Khajiit.
    However the potion passive is also more powerful than an flat recovery on tanks and in pvp as it unaffected by blocking.

    having good pvp skills is an curse if you don't pvp.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    ✭✭✭
    zaria wrote: »
    Roboplus wrote: »
    I would personally like to know how you went about calculating the value of Argonian's Potion Passive.

    Not my calculations. Google Sheets credits "muh hoeppy", but I'm not sure where I found it- here or on Reddit.

    However, seems to be a direct conversion into Resource recovery per second. If true:

    4000 / 45 = 88.888 x 2 (because the Resource Recovery stat only applies once every 2 seconds) = 177.777 / 129 (the Resource Recovery value for Stam/Mag set pieces) = 1.38 set piece value for Stam and Mag each, which is close to what they got.

    Now, it's possible ZoS went by Shacklebreaker rules and the Stam/Mag values are combined, which would reduce the 8.4 value down to around 7.0. How likely one thinks that might be is up to them.
    Pretty sure they use Shacklebreaker rules, look at Dunmer and Khajiit.
    However the potion passive is also more powerful than an flat recovery on tanks and in pvp as it unaffected by blocking.

    having good pvp skills is an curse if you don't pvp.

    Could just use Stonekeeper if you're a Tank/Block build in pvp.
    Argonian forever
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