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On the subject of PvE players in a PvP Event..
Miszou
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I'm seeing a lot of posts asking for special considerations for PvE players in Cyrodiil, such as immunity, or conflict-free zones or whatever. As much as I dislike PvP for all the popular reasons, I don't think that changing the core PvP experience is really the solution.
However, there is something to be said regarding gear inequality, specifically PvP sets vs PvE sets, Gold gear vs Purple etc. that tends to make things exponentially easier for the well-equipped and well-experienced to beat up on the noobs.
So, since we already have a No CP campaign, why not just create a new campaign where all the gear, levels, stat points etc. are flattened and the exact same for everyone? For example, players are set to level 50, no champion points, no attribute points, white gear only (with no set bonuses). But any unlocked skills are still available for use.
I haven't done any math on this, so for all I know fights could take forever as everyone hits like a wet noodle, so maybe increase the gear color allowed (but still disable set bonuses) or tweak things around a bit so the Time-To-kill is still reasonable.
If everyone is on a level-playing field (as far as gear and stats), then the deciding factor simply comes down to player skill. Sure, the good PvPers will still dominate, but at least it won't be because PvE players don't have the right gear. And yes, if you want to take your uber build into PvP, you can still do that in the current campaigns. This would just be another campaign choice, like No-CP.
I mean, at the end of the day, how many people would play Counter-Strike (or whatever), if gear made a huge difference? Everyone would hate it and would be hugely unpopular. These PvP-only games are popular because the only barrier to winning is your own skill.
That said, I will undoubtedly still suck at PVP - but at least I'll know it was a somewhat fair fight and I was beaten by skill.
However, there is something to be said regarding gear inequality, specifically PvP sets vs PvE sets, Gold gear vs Purple etc. that tends to make things exponentially easier for the well-equipped and well-experienced to beat up on the noobs.
So, since we already have a No CP campaign, why not just create a new campaign where all the gear, levels, stat points etc. are flattened and the exact same for everyone? For example, players are set to level 50, no champion points, no attribute points, white gear only (with no set bonuses). But any unlocked skills are still available for use.
I haven't done any math on this, so for all I know fights could take forever as everyone hits like a wet noodle, so maybe increase the gear color allowed (but still disable set bonuses) or tweak things around a bit so the Time-To-kill is still reasonable.
If everyone is on a level-playing field (as far as gear and stats), then the deciding factor simply comes down to player skill. Sure, the good PvPers will still dominate, but at least it won't be because PvE players don't have the right gear. And yes, if you want to take your uber build into PvP, you can still do that in the current campaigns. This would just be another campaign choice, like No-CP.
I mean, at the end of the day, how many people would play Counter-Strike (or whatever), if gear made a huge difference? Everyone would hate it and would be hugely unpopular. These PvP-only games are popular because the only barrier to winning is your own skill.
That said, I will undoubtedly still suck at PVP - but at least I'll know it was a somewhat fair fight and I was beaten by skill.
4
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Wolfpaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Edited by Wolfpaw on January 31, 2021 8:16PM22 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
This is partly a consequence of what happens when you have an Overland Zone design that hand holds players for too much and never challenges them at any point like it used to23 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
Oh, really? That must be why I've seen all these posts of people asking for tickets just for logging into the game.
Oh, wait...
(that is how some events used to work, BTW - then they monetized events, and, well... it's been crap since)2 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?13 -
Miszou✭✭✭✭✭
✭PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
I don't think that's necessarily true. And really, you can get carried around in a zerg and get the reward without the work, so you know....
All I'm saying is that for a lot of people who decide to try out some PvP, the barrier to entry appears insurmountable at first glance. It's not just a whole new skill set, it's all new gear, champion points, grinding for mats to level up the gear etc. It's just not worth it, when a better player is always going to be better regardless of gear. The gear just compounds the problem of player frustration and retention.
As a PvE tank, I l already carry around 4 distinct sets of gear for various situations (2 for dnugeons,1 for solo overland and 1 for stealth). If it wasn't for the Dressing Room mod, I just wouldn't bother at all. I don't need to add a 5th set, plus refactor all my CP every time. Ain't nobody got time for that. Which is why the No-CP campaign exists.
And which is why I'm suggesting that if you want people to participate, you have to lower the barrier to entry, and if that means putting everyone on a level-playing field where the best players will STILL dominate, then what's the problem?
I'm not asking to remove the other campaigns - just add a new one for people that want to test their actual skill instead of their proc-sets and gold leafed gear.7 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There are no PvE players in PvP areas because if you are in a PvP area you are playing PvP. Just as when players that like PvP are doing PvE content they’re playing PvE.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
To address other topics in the OP.
If people did not take the time to have their builds right for a trial, they shouldn’t expect things to workout well....Same for PvP.
Laziness should never be rewarded.Edited by Girl_Number8 on January 31, 2021 8:37PM17 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.6 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am a PvE only player, but Cyrodiil belongs to the PvP community and I, as a visitor during some events, get what I get with no complaints. I wouldn't dream of asking for changes that could impact PvP players since they 'live' there and I just pop in on rare occasion for 'free stuff'. As said above, not every event needs to cater to every taste. There are enough and frequent enough events that if you don't care for one, simply sit it out till the next event.
I will say I'm delighted that the restriction in Cyrodiil on group only healing is being rescinded but I think the PvP community will welcome that change as well.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo20 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.Edited by Iluvrien on January 31, 2021 9:03PM2 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.16 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
In that it gets you one full day's worth of event tickets without the need to include any other people or make any changes whatsoever to your character to do?1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
In that it gets you one full day's worth of event tickets without the need to include any other people or make any changes whatsoever to your character to do?
Yep, you simply ride your horse there and hit 'e'.
A few seconds later it's done and you can use the /stuck command to teleport back to base.9 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
In that it gets you one full day's worth of event tickets without the need to include any other people or make any changes whatsoever to your character to do?
Yep, you simply ride your horse there and hit 'e'.
A few seconds later it's done and you can use the /stuck command to teleport back to base.
Interesting. Then I might be able to set aside my total antipathy for PvP aside long enough to try this. Let's see what the results are...1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Yup. How many of us PVPers are asking ZOS to give us mythics or monster sets or Arena sets without have to kill any NPC's?2 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As long as I have to deal with bad performance in pvp because of this event I will turn every town into a blood bath. I cant go anywhere else without the game becoming unplayable. And maybe if pve players complained about performance as much as they do about having to go to cyrodil for tickets then something would have been done about it. Until then I will hold the line.
DUDE.
PVE performance has been ABYSMAL since Greymoor dropped. That's 7 months of hard crashes to desktop, dungeons that are literally unplayable (zos's official word on that? Skip them when they are pledges), broken group roles, broken dungeon finder, broken everything. Multiple guilds have quit, many end game teams are dissolved or on permanent hiatus.
If you don't think pvers are complaining, then you simply aren't listening.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
In that it gets you one full day's worth of event tickets without the need to include any other people or make any changes whatsoever to your character to do?
Well, no, MYM doesn't have a "one and done" quest like Undaunted, but I suspect you knew that.
Its the equivalent of FG1 because its the easiest quest Cyrodiil has to offer, and one that can pretty much be cheesed with a little bit of stealth. The IC Arena District daily can be outright cheesed with no combat whatsoever.
Scouting Mission: You travel to the required resource, activate the prompt, and travel back to your home base for the full Cyrodiil tickets. No combat with NPCs required, and if you want to, you can ride or stealth most of the way there and back.
If you don't run into any players, there's no PVP. Now, whether or not you want to prepare for the eventuality of PVP in a PvPvE zone near a resource that's a PVP objective is entirely up to you. For a scouting mission, I find that stealth is the better part of valor, but that's easily accomplished with invisibility pots.
None of the Cyrodiil quests are without risk. Depending on the campaign, it might be safer to transit to a town your alliance owns and do a quickie town quest, but you never know. There's always some risk...but scouting missions and town missions in a town your alliance owns are on the low end of risk compared to, say, "Capture Dragonclaw Mine" or "Kill 20 Enemy Players" which are fairly easy for experienced PVPers.
Even easier, the Arena District quest lets you sit in the safe silenced zone of your respawn point and as other nearby players free citizens, you'll get quest credit from a position of complete safety. If you want it to go a little faster, venture out from the completely safe zone and kill the respawning dremora yourself from the edge of the platform, taking care to not get killed by NPCs or enemy players sniping from below. That'll get you your IC ticket. I mean, how easy is that?
Again, if the goal is a quick in-and-out, its not necessary to change your build if you don't care that you aren't ready for a PVP fight. I take my PVE speed farmer to do IC quests because I find sprinting through the mobs is an effective way to do the dailies fast. I melt like a snowflake vs players, but hey, death is cheap and rezzing up only costs me a little time.1 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You know, I like to take my main into Cyrodiil during MYM for AP for levelling alliance rank and achievements. They're a PvE toon, where I never swap ANYTHING from my PvE set up (lol PFG and MS) including CP and I still have a good time and also end up in the top 10% of my alliance during MYM (in Blackreach).
Sure, PvP gear and CP and skills and set up makes things way easier, but everyone needs to stop acting like it's impossible to do anything in PvP on a PvE toon. Can you 1vX people? No, probably not. Can you siege keeps and take resources and run scouting/town quests and fight zergs from the safety of your keep's walls? Absolutely.
I mean, I killed the emperor of my campaign (two separate times, too!) yesterday on this PvE toon. Got the two achievements for it. It was very satisfying, considering I never thought I'd get them.4 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
In that it gets you one full day's worth of event tickets without the need to include any other people or make any changes whatsoever to your character to do?
Well, no, MYM doesn't have a "one and done" quest like Undaunted, but I suspect you knew that.
Its the equivalent of FG1 because its the easiest quest Cyrodiil has to offer, and one that can pretty much be cheesed with a little bit of stealth. The IC Arena District daily can be outright cheesed with no combat whatsoever.
I have to admit that I did know this wasn't the case. I made sure I read up about the requirements before I set out to discuss why I disagreed with them.
However, I was willing to put my money where my mouth was and even went as far as locating the campaign that my favourite Guild is part of, just in case I needed a shoulder to cry on after trying to test the information I had previously just read about.
That said, the rest of your post contained a great deal of useful information, and I thank you for it. I may even continue with my original plan and see if it is possible for me to manage things as you described.
I still hold to the idea that having options for all play styles would be the best course of action.0 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
The scout the keep mission is all well and good, and have no issue with that because the odds of running into another player are so low. What I really hate is having to complete Imperial City dailies.. I remember when we used to be able to do those by completing White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison. It's rubbish. (And before anyone comes at me telling me how "easy" they are, I'm well aware of the various methods of getting them done. It's still insufferable to me personally.)Edited by Suna_Ye_Sunnabe on January 31, 2021 11:24PMAngua Anyammis Ae Sunna2 -
eso_lags✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »As long as I have to deal with bad performance in pvp because of this event I will turn every town into a blood bath. I cant go anywhere else without the game becoming unplayable. And maybe if pve players complained about performance as much as they do about having to go to cyrodil for tickets then something would have been done about it. Until then I will hold the line.
DUDE.
PVE performance has been ABYSMAL since Greymoor dropped. That's 7 months of hard crashes to desktop, dungeons that are literally unplayable (zos's official word on that? Skip them when they are pledges), broken group roles, broken dungeon finder, broken everything. Multiple guilds have quit, many end game teams are dissolved or on permanent hiatus.
If you don't think pvers are complaining, then you simply aren't listening.
Its simply not as bad. Not even close. If 75% of the playerbase was dealing with 5 second ability delay on a daily basis, everywhere, then I think the forums would be a bit different. I do see people complaining about some of those issues, of course. Also these issues have been going on in pvp for years and zos doesnt care. Nearly every friend ive ever had in this game is gone, many left for bdo when it hit console, many bought PCs and didnt want to regrind because it is a disgusting, tone deaf, insulting, thing to expect people to re grind everything in an mmo that youve spent 4-5 years in.
And all these people over the years just wanted to pvp, but they couldn't. I know pve has plenty of issues, in fact i know it does because i do everything in this game, but pvp gets the worst of it. And im not saying endgame pve players are the ones who dont complain, its the average player who wants to go into pvp right now and grind town quests. The type of player who wont heal when i fight them, or dies in 2 seconds. I guess I cant blame them though, because no one cares about an issue unless its THEIR issue. And performance only really hurts pvp and end game pve. But dont blame me for going to the only area with a little less lag to pvp.Edited by eso_lags on January 31, 2021 11:27PM1 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
The scout the keep mission is all well and good, and have no issue with that because the odds of running into another player are so low. What I really hate is having to complete Imperial City dailies.. I remember when we used to be able to do those by completing White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison. It's rubbish. (And before anyone comes at me telling me how "easy" they are, I'm well aware of the various methods of getting them done. It's still insufferable to me personally.)
Letting us get tickets by doing WGT or ICP didn't force us into direct conflict with other players, which must be the point--they don't just want more players online, they want to funnel everyone into actually fighting with other players. Why? No clue. Maybe they actually enjoy the conflict that this causes in the forums when all the miserable PvE players come in here and vent their frustration and then get taunted and yelled at by PvP players.
1 -
Hapexamendios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you go into Cyrodil or IC, you should expect to die. I'm just in there for the dailies then I'm out. If I die so what? They aren't getting very much off me, some AP and maybe 50 Tel Var in IC. If someone is camping at a turn in point for a quest, I do a different quest, wait them out or sneak in when they go after someone else.2 -
Bucky_13✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
In that it gets you one full day's worth of event tickets without the need to include any other people or make any changes whatsoever to your character to do?
Yep, you simply ride your horse there and hit 'e'.
A few seconds later it's done and you can use the /stuck command to teleport back to base.
Interesting. Then I might be able to set aside my total antipathy for PvP aside long enough to try this. Let's see what the results are...
I do a ton of PvP but I do scouting quests atm since I didn't have much time to play during the weekend to get my tickets. Also, this included getting them on my pacifist PvP toon because that one is still weirdly fun to run with solo in Cyro. Ideally you want a fast mount, rapids helps a lot, basically a mat farming build. Doing it outside of prime time makes it even faster since you'll meet a lot less players on the way.
Also, enjoy the views, Cyro is a really nice zone to ride around in.0 -
L_Nici✭✭✭✭✭
✭You really think its the level and gear that gives PvE people that disadvantage? I am sorry, but every decent PvP player would crush any PvE player on the exact same gear. The PvE mentality is the problem. If you stand around like a pillar, no dodge no block, no nothing, because you are used to a healer healing your butt and a tank taking all the serious damage, thats the problem.
Many PvE players are just way to used to never be in any danger of any kind. That might work on NPCs that have the same attack patterns everywhere, in every dungeon, Trial or Overland, but a human enemy is a completely different story.PC|EU8 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The hurdles/time in pve to play pvp effectively is a lot. Plenty of pve content has huge walls for pvp players...for example, we get a random two monster sets a week, & usually sets years old.
Would I be accepted in a vet dlc/trial with my pvp build & sets? Or would I have to prep for that content to be successful?
PvE players complaining want the reward without the work.
PvP endgame like PvE endgame requires dedication, prep, experience, & yes a lot of dying.
Emphasis mine.
This final sentence is interesting. How many of the PvE events require PvE endgame? As opposed to just normal, every day, overland style activities?
If you want all the rewards/achievements, the Undaunted and Witches Festival require dungeons, arenas, and trials. If you don't like PVP, the Imperial City Event offers the option to do 2 DLC dungeons.
I say this with the caveat that I've seen roleplayers complain that the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood events exclude players who don't want to play evil characters and join those guilds.
ZOS isn't really about making making sure that every event features content that every player enjoys.
Ah true, I had forgotten about the Dremora Motif pages from the Witches Festival, and the Opal Monster Mask style page. But aren't both of these either available to buy from the Impresario using tickets or for gold through the trading system?
Tickets in both of these events do not require Endgame. Undaunted gives tickets for completing FG1. I mean I can do that solo, and my main is a very squishy (low) DPS.
Is there an avenue to the tickets in MYM that is similarly devoid of endgame in PvP? Surely, by entering the PvP zones are we not, as we are so often reminded, subject to all that the name PvP suggests?
All that said, I would have no interest in a PvE version of IC/Cyrodiil if the reciprocal offer was not made to PvP players. I want people to have options to enjoy the game. If we aren't enjoying playing... then something is wrong. So yes, I'd love to see an extra instance added to PvE zones during PvE events to give PvP people a chance to enjoy the events with some extra risk... or even have alternate challenges that were in keeping with the event, that took place in Cyrodiil (or IC), that would provide the same rewards.
I just don't agree with limiting options in such a way as people end up doing things in a game that they don't enjoy.
Doing the Cyrodiil "Scout a Keep" quest is the PvP equivalent of Fungal Grotto 1.
The scout the keep mission is all well and good, and have no issue with that because the odds of running into another player are so low. What I really hate is having to complete Imperial City dailies.. I remember when we used to be able to do those by completing White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison. It's rubbish. (And before anyone comes at me telling me how "easy" they are, I'm well aware of the various methods of getting them done. It's still insufferable to me personally.)
Do the Arena district from your respawn point.
The Arena District quest lets you sit in the safe silenced zone of your respawn point and as other nearby players free citizens, you'll get quest credit from a position of complete safety. If you want it to go a little faster, venture out from the completely safe zone and kill the respawning dremora yourself from the edge of the platform, taking care to not get killed by NPCs or enemy players sniping from below. That'll get you your IC ticket.
And you are misrembering the WGT/ICP tickets, though understandable so. Those are options during the Imperial City Celebration, as those dungeons are part of the DLC. Midyear Mayhem has never had a dungeon included.4 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭I'm seeing a lot of posts asking for special considerations for PvE players in Cyrodiil, such as immunity, or conflict-free zones or whatever. As much as I dislike PvP for all the popular reasons, I don't think that changing the core PvP experience is really the solution.
However, there is something to be said regarding gear inequality, specifically PvP sets vs PvE sets, Gold gear vs Purple etc. that tends to make things exponentially easier for the well-equipped and well-experienced to beat up on the noobs.
So, since we already have a No CP campaign, why not just create a new campaign where all the gear, levels, stat points etc. are flattened and the exact same for everyone? For example, players are set to level 50, no champion points, no attribute points, white gear only (with no set bonuses). But any unlocked skills are still available for use.
I haven't done any math on this, so for all I know fights could take forever as everyone hits like a wet noodle, so maybe increase the gear color allowed (but still disable set bonuses) or tweak things around a bit so the Time-To-kill is still reasonable.
If everyone is on a level-playing field (as far as gear and stats), then the deciding factor simply comes down to player skill. Sure, the good PvPers will still dominate, but at least it won't be because PvE players don't have the right gear. And yes, if you want to take your uber build into PvP, you can still do that in the current campaigns. This would just be another campaign choice, like No-CP.
I mean, at the end of the day, how many people would play Counter-Strike (or whatever), if gear made a huge difference? Everyone would hate it and would be hugely unpopular. These PvP-only games are popular because the only barrier to winning is your own skill.
That said, I will undoubtedly still suck at PVP - but at least I'll know it was a somewhat fair fight and I was beaten by skill.
I already said this like 10 times but here we go again. This game it's an MMORPG... It's not a shooter, it's not a moba, it's not a battle royale...
In MMORPGs time matters, of course someone who has been playing since close beta, will have better gear, more gold, more level and more experience that someone who has been playing for less than a week or a month.
As a new player is ok to die, because guess what, if you are new you suppose to die in the first place, that's how people learn to play the game, by dying and practice.
If you want a game where everyone is always in the same condition, play a moba or a battle royale, each match everyone will start from zero.
This community is too soft... People want everything for free without putting in the effort.
In every Multiplayer Game, there's going to be Casuals and there's going to be Try Hards, nobody is forcing you to be something you don't want be, but don't think for a second that the Try Hards are going to be soft on you, and they don't deserve punishment because other people doesn't have the skill, time or simply aren't good enough to compete.4 -
Netheniel✭✭✭
I understand what you're asking for, but realistically that would never take off in this type of genre. If you follow the history of MMOs, from as far back as the niche online MUDs, the infamous Ultima Online, to Dark Age of Camelot, and finally Blizzard's popularization of MMO games with WoW, you'll see they've all inherited the same design philosophy behind PvP. Unlike arena based games that are designed to be quasi-fair (nothing is ever truly fair and balanced), MMOs have a history of rewarding players who invest in making themselves powerful. It's literally woven into the DNA of MMOs, and players have come to accept that as an industry standard.So, since we already have a No CP campaign, why not just create a new campaign where all the gear, levels, stat points etc. are flattened and the exact same for everyone? For example, players are set to level 50, no champion points, no attribute points, white gear only (with no set bonuses). But any unlocked skills are still available for use.
Where I do see a problem with ESO however is in the skill system. MMOs like GW2 are better designed in this regard because you can more freely change your character loadout to specialize for the type of PvP or PvE experience you want. ESO however is much more old fashioned in this regard. Skill morphs that are clearly more suitable for PvP require a prayer at a statue and some gold to reselect your morphs. I don't think many players are inclined to do that every time they want to switch between PvE and PvP. If there's one thing I think ZoS should do, it would be to redesign that awkward system and provide players with loadout options for PvP and PvE. When PvE players can more easily equip skill morphs that focus on stun-locking players, reducing the effectiveness of their heals, slowing them down to a crawl, draining their magicka/stamina, etc. then you can both laugh as you throw sand at each others eyes. It may not solve your disparity problem, but it will make your opponent work much harder and sacrifice more resources that may cost them the next fight, which could be your ally coming in to finish them off.4 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"So, since we already have a No CP campaign, why not just create a new campaign where all the gear, levels, stat points etc. are flattened and the exact same for everyone? For example, players are set to level 50, no champion points, no attribute points, white gear only (with no set bonuses). But any unlocked skills are still available for use."
There would be players unable to do the quests without all the boosts. Those players would still die to an experienced PvP'r.
THe problem with trying to separate those who PvP and those who do not is the trolls. If there were a campaign created as you suggested there would be players taking advantage. They would know that campaign is where the easy targets are at and off they go to grief the PvE'rs for whatever reason pops into their heads.
Often if you are doing one of the town dailies in Cyrodiil if you hold block when you see the enemy they will let you be. Not always of course. Often enough though that you can usually get the quests done with a minimal amount of cursing.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1
