Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Nightblade HEMMORAGE should include Majory Prophecy.

Most other class/weapon passives affect Mag and Stam equally, this should be the same.

Each of the original 4 classes has its own unique buff - this the unique buff of Nightblades.

Yes, it is better for solo stamBlades than magBlades but it is what it is.

I'm on console and can't test properly, but feel concerned about the upcoming changes.

- On armor, could you tweak the native passive perks so the "take X% more damage from Y source" condition would apply to player-sourced, instead of just magic/physical type (so that fits for pvp balance without hurting pve builds) ?

I have been testing Argonian racial changes on PTS and I have found something interesting that should be looked at.

Resourceful now restores 3125 (down from 4000 on live server).

I wanted to see how much you can "min-max" this passive. As you know, with infused jewellery with Glyph of Potion Speed, you can get down to 21 seconds of potion cool-down (8 + 8 + 8 = 24 second less from default 45) . This means that:

3125 resources restore translates to 297 recovery.
(3125 / 21 = 148 per second, so 148 x 2 = 296 per 2 seconds)

However, if one would decide to use Glyph of Prismatic Recovery on infused jewellery, that means you get 402 recovery.
(134 + 134 +134 = 402)

So basically, you restore less, even though you have a "kiss-curse" effect, as you have to drink potions that have an actual gold cost and are limited... That is kinda weird, right ? Doesn't it feel um... kinda wrong ? ? ?

I mean, even if we compare live server values of Resourceful passive (4000) it is still less recovery:
4000 / 21 = 190 per second, so 190 x 2 = 380 per 2 seconds)

On live server however this makes sense since those values come closer together (380 vs 402) so you can be flexible and use different types of potions to supplement your build. But still, I think that the fact that you need a potion that is consumed in a 1st place should be counted too into this (Resourceful) passive strengths & weakness.


So, comparing new (PTS) values of this passive vs using Glyphs of Prismatic Recovery we get even worse result:
296 vs 402

^ I think it should be the other way around. Active gameplay & using consumables in a strategic moment should be rewarded more, than just having a passive recovery that works in the background.

My feedback:
With the Resourceful passive changes it will be no longer beneficial to use this type (potion based build) play-style, as it will be way more efficient to run 3x Prismatic Recovery glyphs. Those two dont even come close together anymore.

Glyph of Potion Speed should be updated to new standards, with a slight increase of effectiveness, Resourceful passive should be re-evaluated to provide current "live server" values (or possible stronger) recovery, since it has a kiss-curse effect.

MagDK and Magplar both need to be looked at because they’ve been falling behind in DPS especially compared to MagNB and Magcro. Most of the tests I’ve seen show MagDK around 10-15K dps behind the top.

Sustain is also bad on MagDK and has been ever since the nerf to resources returned on ultimate use because the skills are so expensive. The Combustion 500 magicka return passive is too little return for how often it procs and DK gets no recovery bonuses.

Magnecro still has the worst PvP offensive toolkit of any class by far and needs major adjustments. Here's why:

• Harmony was nerfed, nuking the already niche and somewhat clunky burst build for mag necro
• Major vuln is only 10% now and the initial hit of the Colossus ult (though already telegraphed and not instantaneous) doesn't stun. Compare that to Dawnbreaker of Smiting which on top of also being AOE, costs 100 less ult, does more initial damage, stuns instantly, applies a high-damage DOT, gets buffed by 20% vs vampire and werewolf players from Fighters Guild passives, and is usable by any class/build since it's a guild skill.
• Mag blastbones essentially has no secondary effect since the damage modifier doesn't work now that blastbones doesn't run to the target. ZOS even acknowledged this a few patches ago but hasn't changed it to something useful DESPITE stam blastbones applying AOE major defile, which is one of the best PvP debuffs in the game. This is on top of the skill still being a bit clunky/buggy and sometimes having targeting issues.
• Mag skulls is a very slow spammable and has inferior secondary effects compared to other spammable options such as Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon, and even the stam skulls.
• The Skeletal Arcanist deals incredibly low damage after battlespirit and doesn't target who you're immediately trying to kill. It will ignore the 10% hp player that is trying to run away in favor of a full hp target that is closer to you, even though you're targeting the low health player with all of your other skills. The best way to make the skelly mage viable imo is to increase the damage and have a similar skill to sorc's Daedric Curse, where the pet will target whoever has the curse on them.
• Mystic siphon is completely useless in PvP. It requires a corspe, does low damage, has a small AOE, the tether can be cancelled by LOS, and it is generally pointless to use in PvP, where both the caster and enemy players dynamically move around. This skill would be much better as a single target DOT that would trigger Skeletal Arcanist targeting.
• Hungry Scythe from the Bone Tyrant tree just doesn't do enough damage to warrant using.
• Despite having a DOT damage passive, mag necros don't have a single viable DOT for PvP in their class trees and generally have to utilize proc sets to put out any significant amount of damage.
• Mag necros have no class access to major sorcery OR major prophecy.

This is on top of mag necros having the worst mobility out of any class (templars and DKs have on-demand gap closers, wardens have vines and portals), a general lack of debuffs, no damage-dealing secondary effects from other skills (Boundless storm dealing passive lightning damage for example), no execute skill, and no "free" passive damage like Burning light.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I have been testing Argonian racial changes on PTS and I have found something interesting that should be looked at.

Resourceful now restores 3125 (down from 4000 on live server).

I wanted to see how much you can "min-max" this passive. As you know, with infused jewellery with Glyph of Potion Speed, you can get down to 21 seconds of potion cool-down (8 + 8 + 8 = 24 second less from default 45) . This means that:

3125 resources restore translates to 297 recovery.
(3125 / 21 = 148 per second, so 148 x 2 = 296 per 2 seconds)

However, if one would decide to use Glyph of Prismatic Recovery on infused jewellery, that means you get 402 recovery.
(134 + 134 +134 = 402)

So basically, you restore less, even though you have a "kiss-curse" effect, as you have to drink potions that have an actual gold cost and are limited... That is kinda weird, right ? Doesn't it feel um... kinda wrong ? ? ?

I mean, even if we compare live server values of Resourceful passive (4000) it is still less recovery:
4000 / 21 = 190 per second, so 190 x 2 = 380 per 2 seconds)

On live server however this makes sense since those values come closer together (380 vs 402) so you can be flexible and use different types of potions to supplement your build. But still, I think that the fact that you need a potion that is consumed in a 1st place should be counted too into this (Resourceful) passive strengths & weakness.


So, comparing new (PTS) values of this passive vs using Glyphs of Prismatic Recovery we get even worse result:
296 vs 402

^ I think it should be the other way around. Active gameplay & using consumables in a strategic moment should be rewarded more, than just having a passive recovery that works in the background.

My feedback:
With the Resourceful passive changes it will be no longer beneficial to use this type (potion based build) play-style, as it will be way more efficient to run 3x Prismatic Recovery glyphs. Those two dont even come close together anymore.

Glyph of Potion Speed should be updated to new standards, with a slight increase of effectiveness,

or:

Resourceful passive should be re-evaluated to provide current "live server" values (or possible stronger) recovery, since it has a kiss-curse effect.

This analysis is missing a couple of important factors:
1) In the case of using potion recovery glyphs, the glyphs also provide benefit in getting the actual potion effect more frequently, ie: if using tripots you are getting more resources over time from potions themselves (but using more potions)
2) In the case of using tri-recovery glyphs, its missing the fact that you would still be getting the argonian passive every 45 seconds (base potion cooldown)
3) The tri-glyphs effect can be modified by recovery bonuses

This all means its a bit hard to compare. I'm pretty sure that if you do all of the above I think the potion recovery glyphs will come out worse. But that isn't necessarily indicative of the argonian passive being weak, it just means the potion glyphs are weak. And really, the potion glyphs should really be valid for all races, not just argonian, and then be a bit stronger than normal on argonian.

A simpler comparison would be the argonian passive vs other races recovery passives
So:
Argonian: 3125/45 = 69.444 of each resource per sec. So equivalent to 138.88 of each recovery, total 416.66, unaffected by recovery passives.

Compare to Khajiit: 100 health + 85 mag and stam. Total 270. Can be affected by recovery passives, so probably something like +60-80% gives 432-486. Note that this requires the use of tri-pots on cooldown as well to get the +40% recovery buff.

Or Wood elf: 258 stamina. So with +60-100% (max bonus is a bit higher here as its easier to stack bonuses to one recovery than all three in the case of Khajiit) gives 412-516. Again, also requires some form of stamina pot on cooldown for the +40% recovery buff.

So argonian does seem a little on the low side given it seems to be approximately the same as others assuming only +60% recovery bonuses, which is likely on the lower end of the spectrum. As stated, the use of potions is a moot point at this level as they are also needed for the other races to get the major recovery buffs. However there is the fact that if you aren't optimising, and not using potions as frequently or at all, then the other races only lose some of there bonus (due to losing the uptime on the major recovery bonus) whereas argonian's passive effectiveness gets severely dimished or completely removed if not using potions at all.

They would prob have a better time with Argonians passives if they would of made them the classes they should be. Going all the way to Arena mains stats, Intelligence, Agility, and Speed and later games a handicap in Endurance/HP. I see magic and stamina, what I don't see is heavy armor wearing tanks with high HP. They should of been healers, magic/stam dps, no wonder they are having a hard time. They want them to be tanks, when they are mostly healers, mages, assassins, and thieves.

Koronach wrote: »

They would prob have a better time with Argonians passives if they would of made them the classes they should be. Going all the way to Arena mains stats, Intelligence, Agility, and Speed and later games a handicap in Endurance/HP. I see magic and stamina, what I don't see is heavy armor wearing tanks with high HP. They should of been healers, magic/stam dps, no wonder they are having a hard time. They want them to be tanks, when they are mostly healers, mages, assassins, and thieves.

Agree on that. But at this point, argonians are not shoehorn into anything at all really. PTS passives make them kinda bad for pretty much all roles...

My feedback:

- Resourceful - this passive should retain its "live server" values (4000). Lowering it THIS much (3125) severely impacts sustain, on a race that was always know to have decent sustain, no matter the build. On top of that, Argonian potion passive has a quite big disadvantage - it requires a consumable potion to work, meaning that it has an actually gold cost and this imho should be treated as a "kiss - curse" effect when calculating its "mathematical" power budget.

Also races that have passive recovery can take advantage of recent changes to recovery buffs (40%, easily available from potion) but Argonians, that use raw resource restored rather than passive recovery can not use this buff effectively.

- Live Mender - this passive focuses only on one thing - healing. While other races get universal bonus (like weapon / spell dmg or crit bonus, that boost both dmg & healing) - Argonians have pretty much nothing to boost their offensive potential. Therefore, since this bonus focuses only on one thing (healing) - it should boost it more. 6% is very low and does not feel impactful at all (like I have said, I can re-allocated my skill points out of this passive and I can barely notice any difference).

Important thing to notice is that set bonus that was used to determine this passive value was changed. 2% healing set bonus was buffed to 4%, shortly after racial rebalance as this bonus was underperforming heavily when compared to other bonuses (crit, spell / weapon dmg or max stam / mag etc). But Argonian passive remained unupdated. Simply put - "mathematically" this passive is below current standards and needs to be re-evaluated.

- Stamina bonus - it is nice addition, but since "mathematically" (not game-play wise) Argonians seem to have reached its "power budget" (and therefore sustain was reduced by wayyy to much) - maybe simply change the 1K magicka & stamina bonus to only boost one resource at the time - depending on which is the highest. So if magicka is your highest offensive stat - then you would get 1K magcika. If Stamina is your highest offensive stat - then you would get 1K stamina.

This would still allow the flexibility & freedom of building your character, but would not affect the power budget, so potion passive could retain its values (4000). Also, it would even fit lore as Argonians are know for their adaptiveness.

- Poison resistance - it is very good change to have instead of disease immunity. Having those two resistance (poison & disease) is nice addition and also fits lore quite nicely.

Summary so far (PTS v6.3.0):

Pros:
- I like the resistance changes (both poison & disease), probably best change so far in Argonian racial passives. Love it.
- I like that you are trying to give Argonians some kind of stamina bonus (Argonians in lore are not only healers, they are also hunters, rouges, thieves, assassins, warriors etc.)

Cons:
- Changes to Resourceful potion passive are horrible, sustain is way too hard. I can no longer build around potions effectively, compared to standard "passive" recovery builds. Build diversity will suffer.
- Live mender passive was not touched at all and is still too low to be relevant. One can even argue that "Amphibian" swimming speed bonus is more impactful game-play wise.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

They would prob have a better time with Argonians passives if they would of made them the classes they should be. Going all the way to Arena mains stats, Intelligence, Agility, and Speed and later games a handicap in Endurance/HP. I see magic and stamina, what I don't see is heavy armor wearing tanks with high HP. They should of been healers, magic/stam dps, no wonder they are having a hard time. They want them to be tanks, when they are mostly healers, mages, assassins, and thieves.

Agree on that. But at this point, argonians are not shoehorn into anything at all really. PTS passives make them kinda bad for pretty much all roles...

My feedback:

- Resourceful - this passive should retain its "live server" values (4000). Lowering it THIS much (3125) severely impacts sustain, on a race that was always know to have decent sustain, no matter the build. On top of that, Argonian potion passive has a quite big disadvantage - it requires a consumable potion to work, meaning that it has an actually gold cost and this imho should be treated as a "kiss - curse" effect when calculating its "mathematical" power budget.

Also races that have passive recovery can take advantage of recent changes to recovery buffs (40%, easily available from potion) but Argonians, that use raw resource restored rather than passive recovery can not use this buff effectively.

- Live Mender - this passive focuses only on one thing - healing. While other races get universal bonus (like weapon / spell dmg or crit bonus, that boost both dmg & healing) - Argonians have pretty much nothing to boost their offensive potential. Therefore, since this bonus focuses only on one thing (healing) - it should boost it more. 6% is very low and does not feel impactful at all (like I have said, I can re-allocated my skill points out of this passive and I can barely notice any difference).

Important thing to notice is that set bonus that was used to determine this passive value was changed. 2% healing set bonus was buffed to 4%, shortly after racial rebalance as this bonus was underperforming heavily when compared to other bonuses (crit, spell / weapon dmg or max stam / mag etc). But Argonian passive remained unupdated. Simply put - "mathematically" this passive is below current standards and needs to be re-evaluated.

- Stamina bonus - it is nice addition, but since "mathematically" (not game-play wise) Argonians seem to have reached its "power budget" (and therefore sustain was reduced by wayyy to much) - maybe simply change the 1K magicka & stamina bonus to only boost one resource at the time - depending on which is the highest. So if magicka is your highest offensive stat - then you would get 1K magcika. If Stamina is your highest offensive stat - then you would get 1K stamina.

This would still allow the flexibility & freedom of building your character, but would not affect the power budget, so potion passive could retain its values (4000). Also, it would even fit lore as Argonians are know for their adaptiveness.

- Poison resistance - it is very good change to have instead of disease immunity. Having those two resistance (poison & disease) is nice addition and also fits lore quite nicely.

Summary so far (PTS v6.3.0):

Pros:
- I like the resistance changes (both poison & disease), probably best change so far in Argonian racial passives. Love it.
- I like that you are trying to give Argonians some kind of stamina bonus (Argonians in lore are not only healers, they are also hunters, rouges, thieves, assassins, warriors etc.)

Cons:
- Changes to Resourceful potion passive are horrible, sustain is way too hard. I can no longer build around potions effectively, compared to standard "passive" recovery builds. Build diversity will suffer.
- Live mender passive was not touched at all and is still too low to be relevant. One can even argue that "Amphibian" swimming speed bonus is more impactful game-play wise.

Yeah that's pretty much why I think they should just give Argonians an overhaul. Being tanks is stupid compared to the rest of the series. The Pact already has the Nords and they do tanking better, I can understand healer but not tanks. If a race is gimp in PVE because of PVP then obviously they didn't do it right and need to do better. I just wanted to add I think them trying to go against what they are supposed to be class wise, is just messing it up. They shouldn't have a ton of HP because they never did. So they are too tanky in PVP and gimp in PVE because they can't make them stronger without being OP in PVP. So imo the whole tank thing just needs to go.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

My feedback:
With the Resourceful passive changes it will be no longer beneficial to use this type (potion based build) play-style, as it will be way more efficient to run 3x Prismatic Recovery glyphs. Those two dont even come close together anymore.

Glyph of Potion Speed should be updated to new standards, with a slight increase of effectiveness,

or:

Resourceful passive should be re-evaluated to provide current "live server" values (or possible stronger) recovery, since it has a kiss-curse effect.

when i block on my tank i don't get stam recovery while i block, so its a no go with the prismatic recovery and the nerf is really bad...

but ya they should reconsider

MerguezMan wrote: »

I'm on console and can't test properly, but feel concerned about the upcoming changes.

- On armor, could you tweak the native passive perks so the "take X% more damage from Y source" condition would apply to player-sourced, instead of just magic/physical type (so that fits for pvp balance without hurting pve builds) ?

Exactly...

Templar still has only 3 dmg abilities with stam morph if you include empowering sweep being an ulti. How does this promote build diversity?

Urvoth wrote: »

Magnecro still has the worst PvP offensive toolkit of any class by far and needs major adjustments. Here's why:

• Harmony was nerfed, nuking the already niche and somewhat clunky burst build for mag necro
• Major vuln is only 10% now and the initial hit of the Colossus ult (though already telegraphed and not instantaneous) doesn't stun. Compare that to Dawnbreaker of Smiting which on top of also being AOE, costs 100 less ult, does more initial damage, stuns instantly, applies a high-damage DOT, gets buffed by 20% vs vampire and werewolf players from Fighters Guild passives, and is usable by any class/build since it's a guild skill.
• Mag blastbones essentially has no secondary effect since the damage modifier doesn't work now that blastbones doesn't run to the target. ZOS even acknowledged this a few patches ago but hasn't changed it to something useful DESPITE stam blastbones applying AOE major defile, which is one of the best PvP debuffs in the game. This is on top of the skill still being a bit clunky/buggy and sometimes having targeting issues.
• Mag skulls is a very slow spammable and has inferior secondary effects compared to other spammable options such as Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon, and even the stam skulls.
• The Skeletal Arcanist deals incredibly low damage after battlespirit and doesn't target who you're immediately trying to kill. It will ignore the 10% hp player that is trying to run away in favor of a full hp target that is closer to you, even though you're targeting the low health player with all of your other skills. The best way to make the skelly mage viable imo is to increase the damage and have a similar skill to sorc's Daedric Curse, where the pet will target whoever has the curse on them.
• Mystic siphon is completely useless in PvP. It requires a corspe, does low damage, has a small AOE, the tether can be cancelled by LOS, and it is generally pointless to use in PvP, where both the caster and enemy players dynamically move around. This skill would be much better as a single target DOT that would trigger Skeletal Arcanist targeting.
• Hungry Scythe from the Bone Tyrant tree just doesn't do enough damage to warrant using.
• Despite having a DOT damage passive, mag necros don't have a single viable DOT for PvP in their class trees and generally have to utilize proc sets to put out any significant amount of damage.
• Mag necros have no class access to major sorcery OR major prophecy.

This is on top of mag necros having the worst mobility out of any class (templars and DKs have on-demand gap closers, wardens have vines and portals), a general lack of debuffs, no damage-dealing secondary effects from other skills (Boundless storm dealing passive lightning damage for example), no execute skill, and no "free" passive damage like Burning light.

This. We told ZOS so many times... yet nothing.