Harder enemies are a necessity in ESO.

SilverBride · November 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

If the combat was more rewarding and fun people would be more likely to participate in it.

I doubt that very much. Players don't want to spend all that extra time on mobs not related to their quests.

Kiralyn2000 · November 2020

biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »

I've been saying this since 1T came out. The whole "stuff balances to your level" idea is trash. I miss the old days where mobs in Craglorn could actually kill you, now that can only happen if you are afk.

You know, I don't think I've ever had a character that could only die if I went AFK. I certainly make sure to be careful around the overland enemies in Craglorn, since they come in larger groups than other zones and tend to be a bit stronger (or at least, they seem that way).

Just because someone has played for a few years, doesn't automatically make them Super Awesome Endgame Players whose characters kill overland mobs just by sneezing near them, and can facetank endlessly.

re: "if combat was more rewarding or fun"
That comment, and the other thread about "what do people dislike about the combat" reminded me of something. There's replies in that other thread (and various places) where people talk about quitting the game because of the combat, or only enjoying the game because of the combat... I'm having a hard time thinking of any game that my play/don't play decision was based on the combat system. Most of the time, the combat is just something that's there, that I have to deal with in order to continue exploring, questing, story-ing, crafting, etc. I've never been a Combat Guy, who wanted to play a game because the combat system sounded cool. Which is probably also another factor in why I've no interest in the SoulsBorne genre or any of the other Boss Fight:The Game style games (Monster Hunter, etc).

...actually, now that I think about it, the combat in Dragon Age:Origins almost made me stop playing because it was so damn tedious (likely due to my party being Melee Rogue, Melee Rogue, Tank, Healer. Rather than the meta AOE Mage. I picked my party by characters I liked, not by meta or gameplay). So I turned the diff down to Easy, because I wanted to drag myself though it for the sake of the story.

tl;dr - combat is not "rewarding", it's just something you have to deal with to get to the rest of the game.

SilverBride · November 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

combat is not "rewarding", it's just something you have to deal with to get to the rest of the game.

I'd love to have that on a plaque!

Jeremy · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If the combat was more rewarding and fun people would be more likely to participate in it.

I doubt that very much. Players don't want to spend all that extra time on mobs not related to their quests.

Well speaking for myself, I would be willing to engage more with enemies if they were rewarding and fun to fight. It's the mindless tedium of the landscape content that encourages me just to run past them. But who knows, maybe I'm the exception.

But in any case: whether I'm wrong or right, players who like the landscape the way it is is currently would not be affected by an optional veteran zone. So everyone still wins.

SilverBride · November 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

But in any case: whether I'm wrong or right, players who like the landscape the way it is is currently would not be affected by an optional veteran zone.

I purposely avoided answering that the first time you mentioned it, because an optional vet zone is what is being discussed on another thread. Let's stick to the difficulty of overland mobs in this thread, please, since that is what the OP is concerned with.

Sylvermynx · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

combat is not "rewarding", it's just something you have to deal with to get to the rest of the game.

I'd love to have that on a plaque!

Me too!!

Jeremy · November 2020

SilverBride wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But in any case: whether I'm wrong or right, players who like the landscape the way it is is currently would not be affected by an optional veteran zone.

I purposely avoided answering that the first time you mentioned it, because an optional vet zone is what is being discussed on another thread. Let's stick to the difficulty of overland mobs in this thread, please, since that is what the OP is concerned with.

But an optional veteran zone would allow for the difficulty of overland mobs to be raised without impacting other players who like the current difficulty. So whether or not it's being discussed in another thread doesn't change the fact it's still an effective solution for the problem posed by the OP. So why avoid talking about it?

Varana · November 2020

a) By avoiding overland mobs like bears and wolves and bandits, I am engaging with the world. Because when I go somewhere, I'm certainly not making sure I kill everything that moves. (Your mileage may vary.) Letting three goblins and their shaman live, is not ignoring the world.

b) "Combat needs to be more rewarding" - here we get to the core of the matter. Would it be rewarding enough if enemies were just harder, as in "the real reward is the buttons we pressed along the way"? Or do they need to get better drops as well?
If the former, I seriously doubt many people will play in these zones. It sounds nice for a while, but no-one will fight slightly better packs of sabre cats every other step.
If the latter, it's not about combat any more, it's about getting better stuff, and I'm firmly opposed to create a two-class system for overland rewards. Overland is only marginally about the things you drop, it's mostly for quests and experience (but mostly quests). And the whole "combat needs to be more engaging" sounds a bit flimsy when it's actually meant to say "I want moar stuff!"

c) Technically, it's not the world that's scaled to you, it's you who is scaled to the world. The effect is quite similar, though.

Jolsyf · November 2020

Oh god here we go again on "This game is too easy!" and "This game is too hard!", I can't believe I'll defend zenimax but if I were a dev I would quit my job over this bs.

Ravensilver · November 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

But an optional veteran zone would allow for the difficulty of overland mobs to be raised without impacting other players who like the current difficulty. So whether or not it's being discussed in another thread doesn't change the fact it's still an effective solution for the problem posed by the OP. So why avoid talking about it?

We have an 'optional' vet zone: Craglorn.

But it's not so 'optional', is it? Just like Cyrodiil isn't really optional, if you want certain achievements, for example. Let's take skyshards. If you want the achievement (because you would like to be able to buy the skyshard for your house, for example), you *must* pick up the ones in Cyrodiil. Whether you want to do PvP or not (I'm of the *DECIDEDLY NOT* faction).
Same with Craglorn.
Or the fishing achievement. Same thing. You have to do Craglorn and Cyrodiil (and I'm still missing a fish from there).

So the 'optional' version isn't really optional at all.

Craglorn bombed after it was released. Obviously people *don't* want to do vet content all day long. If they did, Craglorn would be teeming with player masses. Right now, you're lucky to find a few people passing through during the day. It's hard to find groups to help you do the content, because there aren't enough people around.

As I said, if vet content were so hotly demanded, why is virtually no one doing it then?

Trensharo · November 2020

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Viem wrote: »

As it is right now, all enemies are trivial,

That depends entirely on the builds of your characters. It also sounds like an exaggeration-- "all" enemies are trivial?

Let's not pretend 98.6% of the player base doesn't go to YouTube or AlcastHQ to copy a build off of there. Really, let's just not do that...

Most overland, delve, and public dungeon content is trivial.

Bought the game for a friend and he had no clue how to play... and is definitely no veteran gamer. He was destroying everything and not using any type of rotation, and random gear on his DK.

Hell, he was even wearing level 10 gear at level 40, and this wasn't a problem. Half his slots were white gear with no bonuses, until we got him crafted sets.

To imply that content is challenging is hilarious. You have to be really bad at the game to find it so. And I don't think that is the target content should be designed towards, as it removes the incentive for people to actually learn how to play more effectively.

When I can solo World bosses on a level 20 toon with barely any skills and bad gear, its hard to agree with you. Delve and public dungeon content is exponentially easier.

Anyone with a YouTube build should be able to mass pull and destroy that stuff after 1 hour of practice on the character.

Vevvev · November 2020

I remember before level scaling was a thing the hoops and hurdles I had to go through if I wanted to beat the difficult story missions. I ended up being absolutely terrified of Harvesters for instance since they'd kill my poor hybrid Nightblade over and over so I had to slot self heals in order to not die. While my DPS still never went over 10k back then due to how much I sucked at the game the challenge was there and I found it very fun and rewarding when the NPCs praised me for saving the day. Like saving High King Emric's life at the end of the Covenant storyline was a serious accomplishment for me back in the day! (Same for becoming a vampire on a new alt.)

Nowadays even with new alts I don't slot Champion Points on the content is not as risky or engaging. The entire overland scene with the exception of some DLC overland bosses feel like a tutorial, and that is why threads like these are popping up. Overland shouldn't be insanely difficult, but it also shouldn't be so easy it falls under what some would consider a tutorial level. There should be some semblance of risk going into an encounter with a story's end boss. The bosses leading up to them and the goons that get thrown at you absolutely can be as weak as they are now, but the final boss should require a bit more effort to put down and deal enough damage to make a 10k health glass cannon feel threatened and want to equip a food buff.

Sanguinor2 · November 2020

Ravensilver wrote: »

We have an 'optional' vet zone: Craglorn.

But it's not so 'optional', is it? Just like Cyrodiil isn't really optional, if you want certain achievements, for example. Let's take skyshards. If you want the achievement (because you would like to be able to buy the skyshard for your house, for example), you *must* pick up the ones in Cyrodiil. Whether you want to do PvP or not (I'm of the *DECIDEDLY NOT* faction).
Same with Craglorn.
Or the fishing achievement. Same thing. You have to do Craglorn and Cyrodiil (and I'm still missing a fish from there).

So the 'optional' version isn't really optional at all.

Discussed this in another thread ad nauseam:
Getting achievements is in itself optional. Wanting to complete everything is optional. Getting every skyshards is, you guessed it, optional. Getting every fish, surpise, optional.
The conclusion: An optional difficulty vet zone would be just that, optional, no matter the rewards it would or would not give.
You wanting them doesnt make them any less optional.

Trensharo · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

I remember before level scaling was a thing the hoops and hurdles I had to go through if I wanted to beat the difficult story missions. I ended up being absolutely terrified of Harvesters for instance since they'd kill my poor hybrid Nightblade over and over so I had to slot self heals in order to not die. While my DPS still never went over 10k back then due to how much I sucked at the game the challenge was there and I found it very fun and rewarding when the NPCs praised me for saving the day. Like saving High King Emric's life at the end of the Covenant storyline was a serious accomplishment for me back in the day! (Same for becoming a vampire on a new alt.)

Nowadays even with new alts I don't slot Champion Points on the content is not as risky or engaging. The entire overland scene with the exception of some DLC overland bosses feel like a tutorial, and that is why threads like these are popping up. Overland shouldn't be insanely difficult, but it also shouldn't be so easy it falls under what some would consider a tutorial level. There should be some semblance of risk going into an encounter with a story's end boss. The bosses leading up to them and the goons that get thrown at you absolutely can be as weak as they are now, but the final boss should require a bit more effort to put down and deal enough damage to make a 10k health glass cannon feel threatened and want to equip a food buff.

Level scaling is great to allow people to play with their new friends, but I also agree that it was bad in the sense that it really devalues the overland content through homogenized it.

I also think CP power creep did not help, at all.

Jeremy · November 2020

Ravensilver wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But an optional veteran zone would allow for the difficulty of overland mobs to be raised without impacting other players who like the current difficulty. So whether or not it's being discussed in another thread doesn't change the fact it's still an effective solution for the problem posed by the OP. So why avoid talking about it?

We have an 'optional' vet zone: Craglorn.

But it's not so 'optional', is it? Just like Cyrodiil isn't really optional, if you want certain achievements, for example. Let's take skyshards. If you want the achievement (because you would like to be able to buy the skyshard for your house, for example), you *must* pick up the ones in Cyrodiil. Whether you want to do PvP or not (I'm of the *DECIDEDLY NOT* faction).
Same with Craglorn.
Or the fishing achievement. Same thing. You have to do Craglorn and Cyrodiil (and I'm still missing a fish from there).

So the 'optional' version isn't really optional at all.

Craglorn bombed after it was released. Obviously people *don't* want to do vet content all day long. If they did, Craglorn would be teeming with player masses. Right now, you're lucky to find a few people passing through during the day. It's hard to find groups to help you do the content, because there aren't enough people around.

As I said, if vet content were so hotly demanded, why is virtually no one doing it then?

What I am proposing would be completely "optional" the same way veteran dungeons are optional. You can collect all the same skyshards in a normal Stonefalls that you could in the Vetran Stonefalls. They would really be optional and would not be like Craglorn or Cyrodil.

In respect to the Craglorn analogy (which comes up a lot in this context) that's a bad comparison. I myself hardly ever stepped foot in Craglorn. Why? It wasn't because I didn't want more challenge in the overland (because I did). It was simply because I could not do the current content I was working on there. It would be like making only one dungeon Veteran and then wondering why it wasn't more popular. If every zone had it's own mirror veteran image I can promise you they would be a lot more popular than Craglorn was because people could actually do the content they were currently working on in them. It was foolish to expect everyone was going to flock to a single zone and redo the same content over and over anyway. As I mentioned before, that would be like making a single dungeon Veteran mode and expecting everyone just to repeat that single dungeon over and over and concluding if they didn't that somehow means players don't want more challenge. That's just silly.

Smile2342 · November 2020

I've been playing over a year with a crafting character. I don't do dungeons or follow any builds or even join any groups for group content. Now that I'm almost 500 CP, combat is beyond boring. I've just finished the main questline for the Greymoor. I might have enjoyed it more if there was any challenge at any point in the questline.

I expect mudcrabs to be totally insignificant. What I do find disappointing is that "boss" type creatures cannot simply kill me. I regenerate hitpoints faster than any of them can inflict damage. This game is supposed to be an RPG not a visual novel.

I didn't notice in this thread anyone pointing out that there are four levels of Monster Difficulty in the game: Normal, Scary, Hard, and Deadly. Scary creatures used to be somewhat of a challenge, i.e. I could die if I wasn't paying attention. Now I can stand there and get a cup of coffee and depending on what set I'm wearing it might die on its own.

What I don't understand in this discussion is that everything is either "mob" or "boss". Why can't creatures designated as harder than Normal actually be challenging. You can still tip toe around and pick flowers but you might have to avoid "some" areas if there is a troll near by and you don't feel up to the challenge.

It seems to me that the random encounters for "Scary" level monsters is very broken compared to how powerful a player can get. Fixing this without touching Normal level monsters really should be considered as an option instead of saying everything is fine or all of it is broken.

volkeswagon · November 2020

That wouldn't be fair to the many that struggle with bosses, etc or simply have no interest in difficult content. I still see having a normal and vet server as the only compromise.

kinguardian · November 2020

Maybe they could make an option where you can choose the difficulty for overland enemies.
Or an on/off choice that the overland enemies are the same level as your character or a little bit above that.

My partner is playing a game that has that choice and he enjoys it like that. Sometimes he does not feel in having it difficult then he turns it off, other times he wants the challenge.

I don't even know if this would be possible in eso with so many people online but it would be cool if it could work.

Faulgor · November 2020

Ravensilver wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But an optional veteran zone would allow for the difficulty of overland mobs to be raised without impacting other players who like the current difficulty. So whether or not it's being discussed in another thread doesn't change the fact it's still an effective solution for the problem posed by the OP. So why avoid talking about it?

We have an 'optional' vet zone: Craglorn.

But it's not so 'optional', is it? Just like Cyrodiil isn't really optional, if you want certain achievements, for example. Let's take skyshards. If you want the achievement (because you would like to be able to buy the skyshard for your house, for example), you *must* pick up the ones in Cyrodiil. Whether you want to do PvP or not (I'm of the *DECIDEDLY NOT* faction).
Same with Craglorn.
Or the fishing achievement. Same thing. You have to do Craglorn and Cyrodiil (and I'm still missing a fish from there).

So the 'optional' version isn't really optional at all.

Craglorn bombed after it was released. Obviously people *don't* want to do vet content all day long. If they did, Craglorn would be teeming with player masses. Right now, you're lucky to find a few people passing through during the day. It's hard to find groups to help you do the content, because there aren't enough people around.

As I said, if vet content were so hotly demanded, why is virtually no one doing it then?

Craglorn hasn't been veteran content for years, but it bombed at release because the rewards horribly mismatched the difficulty. There was no point in torturing yourself for virtually no gain.
It was also a very different game back then, a game that was at base already more difficult than what we have now. The default rotation of light attack weaving and skills wasn't even established. Player capabilities have gone through the roof since then, and overworld difficulty hasn't kept pace. In fact, it has been continuously lowered - veteran players will remember how challenging Harvesters were.

People do veteran content where it still exists, mainly in dungeons and solo arenas. And yet, you can still find a thread on this topic on the first forum page almost any time. Higher difficulty options for overland content are one of the most consistently demanded features you can find.

And yes, of course it would be optional, in that there would be different options. That doesn't mean there can't be specific achievements and rewards locked behind these different options, just that these rewards in themselves are optional, i.e. not a requirement for other content. Like monster masks and style pages in veteran dungeons, for example, or perfected weapons from veteran arenas. All optional.

hafgood · November 2020

I have no issues with the addition of a veteran zone, even better would be a veteran version of the game with a one time one way transfer as it would be a new server.

And then all those wanting the difficult content can go and play there, all 5 of them.

The rest of us can get on with our lives without any more of these discussions as the vet gods got what they wanted.

If that can't happen then keep your hands of the game i play.

I don't want a veteran zone, I don't want difficulty sliders. Not because I couldn't do the content, i could. But because it doesn't interest me.

Add it and I'll be compelled to do it because it will have achievements. Yes you will argue they are optional.

They are not.

Not for me or for many like me.

Optional isn't an option.

I feel compelled to complete every zone, I hate that there are achievements i will never get such as Godslayer but I have a 100% clear of all current zones, all skyshards, all delves, all dolmens, all fish, all books (except THE book).

Introduce a new zone or new difficulty level and I will be compelled to do it.

You talk optional. You need to get an understanding of how people think and then you will realise that for many there is no such thing, and then you are playing with peoples mental health because they struggle to complete the optional content that isn't optional because its there.

Yes this isn't the normal argument but it is something the we want a harder game brigade need to consider.

redlink1979 · November 2020

For a hard mode, you can go naked (no armor) and punch everything (no weapons). And no cp allocated, ofc.

Grandchamp1989 · November 2020

redlink1979 wrote: »

For a hard mode, you can go naked (no armor) and punch everything (no weapons). And no cp allocated, ofc.

lolol

pretty immersion breaking to be told you're "the last hope" by a quest NPC...
and you run around with a naked lvl 10 punching things like a drunk weirdo.. Pretty much a clear indicator of what's wrong with this.

I agree with the poster above, story mode combat does indeed feel like one big tutorial - but only in how easy it is.. Not in what it teaches you (nothing).

I really wish overland would prepare people for dungeon.. and Dungeons for Vet content etc. It had some resemblence of progression.

Not that it's gonna happen as even an optional HM on the final quest bosses in overland (with no extra rewards attached) will casuals allow. Everybody wants to shoe horn people who know the game into a trivial soup, where not even optional immersion is allowed.

Smile2342 · November 2020

I haven't played that long but "keep your hands of the game i play" is nonsense because the game feels modified to be "easier" from when I first started playing around when Summerset came out.

I remember originally when getting to a tough part of the story I took a break from that particular storyline and did some other things till I crafted myself better gear. Then I got through it. As a matter of fact I recall dying 5 or 6 times in a row in the Clockwork City. Each time I rezzed the fight got easier and I honestly thought there was a game mechanic that saw you struggling and toned down the difficulty.

I only recently started to feel that something is just wrong with the game that wearing stuff I can craft prevents you from falling below 75% health for a "scary" level monster. The game doesn't need to be hard but I'd like combat to be not boring.

I'm not a "vet god" or plan on doing much of the "hard" content because I don't like PUGs. However I don't like the base story line of the game being a visual novel.

ZOS_GregoryV · November 2020

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts due to Flaming, as well as Baiting, we would like to remind everyone that all comments should be kept within the Community Guidelines. Flaming and Baiting are both violations of the rules and are stated as follows:

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Ekzorka · November 2020

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

Pls stop this nonsense..game devs should make enemy harder..

Game devs should fix their game and not allowing a bug to be a feature. Ask them if this animation skipping was the original idea for a game mechanic.
Unfortunately, it's too late right now. And the main goal in ESO is how fast do you clicking your mouse... 🤦‍♀️

Viem · December 2020

Level scaling is not any issue whatsoever. Because even with level scaling enemies still are quite trivial.
What most people fail to understand is that ANY change towards existing enemies over their HP/armor/damage will not affect their current experience. I am not suggesting overpopulating the world, thus making it impossible to avoid enemies-like we/you have been doing.
The same mobs that have been ignored so far will STILL be ignored (by choice), i mean the choice will still be there... What will change is the process and outcome when you *choose* to fight them. With that in mind, the focus should be on improving the experience of those who want to engage in staying in the world instead of spamming dungeons.
I am certain that an increase in the hp/armor/damage of the land mobs will benefit all players. (again : the option of ignoring will still be there, what will change is what happens if you don't).

Daemons_Bane · December 2020

Viem wrote: »

Level scaling is not any issue whatsoever. Because even with level scaling enemies still are quite trivial.
What most people fail to understand is that ANY change towards existing enemies over their HP/armor/damage will not affect their current experience. I am not suggesting overpopulating the world, thus making it impossible to avoid enemies-like we/you have been doing.
The same mobs that have been ignored so far will STILL be ignored (by choice), i mean the choice will still be there... What will change is the process and outcome when you *choose* to fight them. With that in mind, the focus should be on improving the experience of those who want to engage in staying in the world instead of spamming dungeons.
I am certain that an increase in the hp/armor/damage of the land mobs will benefit all players. (again : the option of ignoring will still be there, what will change is what happens if you don't).

I quite disagree, since you seem to forget a population group.. those people who have to fight them when they walk around and enjoys overland.. they now have a fight that they possibly did not want

Michae · December 2020

Here we go again. I honestly want to ask if anyone is willing to answer, do you really think if the enemies health and damage was upped the combat would be more engaging? Even at the current difficulty level I mostly find those clusters of enemies just tedious since I have to stop every 5 metres to press a few buttons. So if I had to do that every 5 metres and had to spend more time on that it would be even more tedious, because let's not kid ourselves here, I still wouldn't die that much. Making overland harder would require reprogramming AI so that it would require you to use more mechanics, not just pressing 1,2,3,4,5 till the enemy dies. And even then it would just get tedious after a while and you'd be running through the groups of enemies as always. Dungeons are fun because they are 20 minute affair, they are concentrated and fast. Overland has a slower pace, it has it's gripes, I think even now there's too many trash mobs scattered around, but upping the numbers on them would just make it even slower. The only thing I can agree on is story bosses, they should just have a bit more health so that the dialogue can play out before you kill them.

Katlefiya · December 2020

Everstorm wrote: »

In ESO you can one/two shot overland mobs just fine without ever setting a foot in group content. It's not hard getting 810 cp, just time consuming (and zos is showering us in exp scrolls through the daily rewards). With that and overland or crafted gear you can roflstomp everything quest related.

And why do you perceive that as a problem? Is it that players should only be able to "roflstomp everything" if they participate in group content? If so, care to explain why exactly?

Recent · December 2020

NO

So many are complaining about lag and glytches making it impossible in dungeons etc and you want zos to worry about upping the overlands bosses damage....some zones are quiet and if you up the damage players wont find the help they need to clear zones and they will get frustrated and leave the game.