Harder enemies are a necessity in ESO.

Viem

I have had high hopes for this expansion regarding enemies in ESO. I mean given the nature of the vampires and the lore behind the Dwemer i was hoping we would get a series of harder hitting enemies in : a) Open world - enemies wth higher HP/armor with better loot (green/blue gear drops) and challenging world bosses (blue/purple gear drops).
b) Dwelves - higher HP/Armor enemies plus challenging dwelve end bosses (blue/purple gear drops)
c) Public Dungeons - even higher HP/armor enemies, challenging bosses (purple and -extremely low chance of- gold gear drops plus high quality resourses drop)

My idea is not one of turning the game into an endless camping of bosses for gear or resources -people do this already and regardless of the state of the ememy- that's not the point here. The point here is challenge and the feeling the game leaves you from each fight and the world in general.
As it is right now, all enemies are trivial, giving you no incentive whatsoever to fight them, thus turning them into a nuissance that almost ALL players avoid in their path. I strongly believe by making enemies more challenging and rewarding (loot-wise) it will highly boost players satisfaction.

Daemons_Bane

Have you remembered to consider that quite a lot of the players, maybe even the majority, like overland/delves to be casual.?

VaranisArano

Outside of perhaps giving players the option to enable a "hard mode" for themselves, you aren't going to see overland difficulty get much harder. There are two major reasons: the success of the year-long story arc and the failure of Craglorn.

1. The year-long story arc is ZOS' big marketing push for new players, letting brand new players just right into the thick of the content they just bought. So while the Chapter and DLC zone do have greater variety of enemy difficulty than, say, the old starter zones, its never going to be too difficult. Since DLC zones like Markarth are the climax of the story arc being sold to newish players, again, it can't be too difficult for solo or inexperienced players.

2. Craglorn, the old adventure zone, remains the only overland zone with challenging quests designed for groups. Of course ZOS has the stats for how popular it is with players, but the cancellation of Murkmire as an adventure zone and rerelease as a normal DLC gives us an idea of what ZOS expects to sell to most players.

Taleof2Cities

@Viem, ESO is an MMO ... where group content is the centerpiece of gameplay and plenty of challenging enemies exist.

Not participating in group content is a player's choice and totally fine.

However, asking the devs to cater to that choice of playstyle (when the challenging content already exists in the game), isn't going to get much support.

SeaGtGruff

Viem wrote: »

As it is right now, all enemies are trivial,

That depends entirely on the builds of your characters. It also sounds like an exaggeration-- "all" enemies are trivial?

I don't have time to give a lengthy reply right now [entire forum breathes a sigh of relief], but briefly, it's my belief that if ZOS were to add "harder content" as some players keep asking for,

(1) the same players who are already struggling with the harder content in the game will just struggle even more with the new, even harder content; and

(2) the same players who already spend a lot of their time figuring out how to super-power their characters via builds and gear will simply spend a lot of their time figuring out how to empower their characters even more so the new, even harder content will be trivial to them.

Personally, I wish ZOS would figure out how to add a "game difficulty" slider to ESO, so players could adjust the difficulty to their liking as they can do in many of the other TES games. To be honest, I'm not so sure it would be a good idea, but at least it would (hopefully) appease some of the people who keep complaining about how trivial every boss in the game is for them.

MasterSpatula

So you propose turning the nuisances that players avoid into even bigger, even more time-consuming nuisances that people will try even harder to avoid?

Hexvaldr

They just gave us Vet Vateshran Hollows. It's basically a big solo delve with lots of cool challenges and new gear to farm, plus achieves. I think they are doing a decent job offering some new challenging content while keeping the main game accessible to new players. The challenging content will be instance based usually. Or try soloing harrow storms.

SilverBride

There are vet dungeons and trials for players who are seeking a challenge. Overland content is for everyone.

sharquez

Consider how bad the average player is, and then realize that half of them are even worse than that.
As much as I'd love a more challenging overland, so many players are just not prepared to handle things at even the most basic level, tunnel visioning light attacks on invulnerable enemies. Failing to even comprehend the concept of mechanics. Sometimes they learn. Hell I remember I didn't even know what a set was until level 20 or so back in the day. But an accessible overland is necessary to the overall health of the game.

ArchMikem

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Have you remembered to consider that quite a lot of the players, maybe even the majority, like overland/delves to be casual.?

All I personally want as a would be casual are larger health pools for Boss mobs. I dont want the fights over in seconds. I dont want to continually cut them off mid monologue.

CBixby

Necessity? I think the only necessity in ESO should be fixing this game. Stop adding stupid stuff only a small handful of people want. Fix the servers, fix the bugs, halt the DLC until it's all solid.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

If they even made the enemies just like an average single player game's difficulty on normal, like previous Elder Scrolls, that would be an infinite improvement. The enemy difficulty now is beyond pathetic, and so far below casual that it sucks the life out of any overworld content in my opinion. I'm not even asking for "difficult" enemies, just not enemies that attack once every five seconds and die from coughing on them.

SilverBride

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

The enemy difficulty now is beyond pathetic, and so far below casual that it sucks the life out of any overworld content

The difficulty is fine just as it is. When I'm doing a quest and working my way from Point A to point B, I don't want to spend a lot of time on each mob I need to fight along the way. It doesn't need to take a long time to get to my objective and complete my quest.

JKorr

Okay, I'm going to try not to be sarcastic.

Do you really believe that new players with no cp, crap gear, and no real idea of how to play their characters want uber hard bosses that can't be cleared unless they put together a horde, as opposed to a group? Content they end up dumped into because of the way the new chapters start new characters. The devs found out a long time ago that forcing players to group didn't go over well.

You do realize they already buffed the world bosses, right? When the game started, Bittergreen was the boss. Called no adds. Was still a right pain to put down for new characters. Shivering Shrine; Aurig Mireh was the only boss. Called no adds. Was still hard for new players. Then players weren't so new, with much better gear, and people were soloing bosses. So they buffed them.

ForeverJenn

No. The problem is there is no grey area in difficulty between areas of the game. Overland and normal dungeons are easy enough for a casual to do. DLC and vet trials require people who actively went and parsed or went to arena or sit with progression groups to get to a point to do the challenging content.

A lot of casuals have no idea how little they do compared to seasoned players because they either avoid veterans or dlcs and trials. They think the content is too easy because they actively avoid challenging content because they are told how little they are actually contributing.

JobooAGS

VaranisArano wrote: »

Outside of perhaps giving players the option to enable a "hard mode" for themselves, you aren't going to see overland difficulty get much harder. There are two major reasons: the success of the year-long story arc and the failure of Craglorn.

1. The year-long story arc is ZOS' big marketing push for new players, letting brand new players just right into the thick of the content they just bought. So while the Chapter and DLC zone do have greater variety of enemy difficulty than, say, the old starter zones, its never going to be too difficult. Since DLC zones like Markarth are the climax of the story arc being sold to newish players, again, it can't be too difficult for solo or inexperienced players.

2. Craglorn, the old adventure zone, remains the only overland zone with challenging quests designed for groups. Of course ZOS has the stats for how popular it is with players, but the cancellation of Murkmire as an adventure zone and rerelease as a normal DLC gives us an idea of what ZOS expects to sell to most players.

especially now that craglorn is entirely soloable, at least by me

Everstorm

Make content a bit harder and introduce followers, that take a cut of the coin/exp, for those that can't do it alone or those that want to do it even faster. Disable followers for every group content of course.

SilverBride

ForeverJenn wrote: »

A lot of casuals have no idea how little they do compared to seasoned players because they either avoid veterans or dlcs and trials. They think the content is too easy because they actively avoid challenging content because they are told how little they are actually contributing.

It's not the casual player who is asking for harder overland content. Most of us are fine with things as they are. It's the players who do vet dungeons and trials who ask that everything be made more difficult.

Varana

I tried to play the Greymoor quests with a purposefully underequipped character - no gear, no CP, only weapons as equipment.
To be honest, it was a pain in the butt. Random pushover mobs became a nuisance - they weren't exactly harder, I was never in any danger, they just took longer to kill. The same with my low-level banking-and-crafting alt - no gear except a level 3 weapon, a grand total of six skills. Yes, random overland mobs can bring her down to near-death and I need to heal and stuff - but again, that is random overland trash. I don't want to spend an eternity fighting trash.

Long story short, if overland is made harder, they would need to redesign the encounters to make them more interesting, and remove half of them altogether, or the game becomes a slog.

Now, for quest bosses, that's a different thing - as bit more health would be nice. But in the end, they will never be able to make them appropriate for both level 5 newbies and 90k-trial monsters. You know from a mile away (if you read the quests, that is) that there's a quest boss coming, you don't exactly stumble across them. Just don't fire all your guns at them, give them time. Yes, you could obliterate them before they can squeak, but you don't have to. Show a bit of restraint, and you get at least their dialogue and mechanics. (Yes, newer quest bosses have those.)

Zap through the boring parts of an area, and take your time when appropriate. It's you setting the pace, and that's not a bad thing.

ForeverJenn

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not the casual player who is asking for harder overland content. Most of us are fine with things as they are. It's the players who do vet dungeons and trials who ask that everything be made more difficult.

I think you make a fair point, but honestly it's probably a little of both. No one's gonna be 100 percent happy.

SilverBride

ForeverJenn wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not the casual player who is asking for harder overland content. Most of us are fine with things as they are. It's the players who do vet dungeons and trials who ask that everything be made more difficult.

I think you make a fair point, but honestly it's probably a little of both. No one's gonna be 100 percent happy.

That is why it's good that we have "easy" content and "hard" content. This way everyone can find something they enjoy.

But since overland content is where the majority of storyline and side quests take place, it should remain at a difficulty level that everyone can enjoy.

And I should add that besides vet dungeons and trials, Craglorn is also an option for those looking for more of a challenge.

Jeremy

Viem wrote: »

I have had high hopes for this expansion regarding enemies in ESO. I mean given the nature of the vampires and the lore behind the Dwemer i was hoping we would get a series of harder hitting enemies in : a) Open world - enemies wth higher HP/armor with better loot (green/blue gear drops) and challenging world bosses (blue/purple gear drops).
b) Dwelves - higher HP/Armor enemies plus challenging dwelve end bosses (blue/purple gear drops)
c) Public Dungeons - even higher HP/armor enemies, challenging bosses (purple and -extremely low chance of- gold gear drops plus high quality resourses drop)

My idea is not one of turning the game into an endless camping of bosses for gear or resources -people do this already and regardless of the state of the ememy- that's not the point here. The point here is challenge and the feeling the game leaves you from each fight and the world in general.
As it is right now, all enemies are trivial, giving you no incentive whatsoever to fight them, thus turning them into a nuissance that almost ALL players avoid in their path. I strongly believe by making enemies more challenging and rewarding (loot-wise) it will highly boost players satisfaction.

Yeah, I agree. The overland content on this game - with the exception of some World Bosses - is far too easy. They need to add an optional Veteran Version of each zone, similar to what they already do with dungeons. That would largely solved this problem for you, I, and others. Because veteran players ought to be able to enjoy the combat while doing quests also.

Jaimeh

OP, they haven't changed overland content so far (with the exception of harrowstorms/dragons, and some tricky world bosses) so why would they do it this time... the last true overland challenge was Craglorn, way back when. I think they want it this way for new players, and then leave solo arenas etc., for the veterans. As for weak mobs being a nuissance as you say, I think they still would be a noissance, even if they were harder; people would still try to avoid them, and it would take longer to kill them. I do get why people only doing overland content would get frustrated by the lack of challenge, but there's other challenging contents for solo players to move on to. Plus, the thing with really hard hitting monsters in overland zones has another problem associated with it: mainly that older zones are emptier, so if someone wants to do dailies or farm something from an area/world boss/dragon, there's few people around, and it gets incrementally lenghty and tedious. In off-prime time hours there are three dragons spawned and sitting in elsweyr, and you have to wait for more people to log in, and even then it takes ages to kill a dragon or a harrowstorm. Not ideal if someone just wants to do a daily or farm an antiquity.

Yamenstein

I feel like they need to come up with some changes. I get that they want the game to be casual/newb friendly, but at the same time someone shouldn't be able to kill a mob pack naked in a matter of seconds.

Not sure if they just need to play around with the equipment slotted and some form of battle spirit while in overland.

Only problem with that is that you've spent this entire time leveling up and some vultures will give you trouble

Though I think a system like that can identify some mobs which should be easy to deal with versus the ones which shouldn't be

SilverBride

Yamenstein wrote: »

someone shouldn't be able to kill a mob pack naked in a matter of seconds.

Why not? Why shouldn't there be some weak mobs? That's like saying a hunter should expect a bunny rabbit to be as hard to kill as a bear. It's not reasonable or realistic.

idk

So OP has already cleared the new arena on vet? Grats.

Muizer

What I find problematic personally is the way they make the hard content hard, with the uber bosses and the reliance on timed 'mechanics' that make it so the key to success is learning a choreography. IMHO overland Craglorn does a far better job of creating fun and challenging pve combat.

bmnoble

Suppose they up the difficulty in the new zone, what happens once the majority of players move on from the zone.

People have already been complaining about not being able to get groups for Dragon fights in North Catland, and the Harrowstorms in Western Skyrim just to name a few.

Overland is meant for everyone, I know plenty of players that play ESO purely for the overland quests, they don't touch any of the other content in the game, many due to having poor reaction times due to getting older and not wanting to deal with a toxic group in chat.

I have even seen requests in zone chat for players wanting a tank to help them clear a delve, just because you can nuke anything in overland does not mean that the entire player base is at that level, you have the group and vet content if you want a challenge.

SickleCider

I agree with the assessment that if they were going to increase the health/armor/damage output of enemies across the board, a lot of enemy behaviors would have to be retooled to be more engaging. No one enjoys fighting a boring damage sponge.

I say "behaviors" rather than "mechanics" because we've seen what the team cranks out when we ask for mechanics. It generally amounts to "press (x) on a thing or be one-shot."

Kiralyn2000

Viem wrote: »

As it is right now, all enemies are trivial for some people, giving you some people no incentive whatsoever to fight them, thus turning them into a nuissance that almost ALL some players avoid in their path. I strongly believe by making enemies more challenging and rewarding (loot-wise) it will highly boost some players satisfaction.

Fixed


edit: ..and once again, can someone tell me a major/mainstream MMO, where the overland mobs are challenging (or rewarding) for endgame players?

Heroic/elite/raid players, just running past all those nuisance overland mobs (when they're not one-shotting them for lulz or dailies), pretty much fits my experience in playing MMOs over the last 15+ years. /shrug

Luckylancer

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@Viem, ESO is an MMO ... where group content is the centerpiece of gameplay and plenty of challenging enemies exist.

Not participating in group content is a player's choice and totally fine.

However, asking the devs to cater to that choice of playstyle (when the challenging content already exists in the game), isn't going to get much support.

Devs release a TON of overland content every year. And that content is way too easy for non-sims players. There is already normal-veteran diffence at dungeons and trials. What we ask for is veteran overland.

There are already more zone instances than 1. As this is already in the game, creating 2 instances for every zone wont gonna hurt. Noob players can use a consumable to summon players from veteran version of zone too for helping them for rewards.