NONSENSE: ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group - THEN ESO NO LONGER AN MMO

nuttytom · November 2020

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

For everyone complaining - why don’t you just try playing solo for once instead of zerging

A real question here: what do you mean soloing?

Myself I play in a "organised" group and sometimes small scale ( yes running in a tower and killing)
Playing solo in cyro means or you play a sniper build and piew piew or you run around a tower.

Let's say it is 8pm primetime, everyone is home and ready to play. Can you take solo a keep? Don't think so.
Can a zerg take a keep: yes.

However you want to play: Solo, ballgroup, organised or a zerg surfer. The problem remains the dynamic of the game. People like AP and a bit of fight, not too hard not too easy. Solution? Follow a group and zerg.

Without the pug 24 group Cyro will slow down sooo hard, don't disagree cause we saw it in the tests. In my experience ( leading a organised guild for 2 years ) the zerg creates action. With the change ppl will stay in keeps until a group attacks and the swarm will arrive.

You guys can agree or not but this is what I saw during tests. Do I like it? No, I prefer the dynamic of the game now ( with lagg) then a so called "solution".

If ZOS does not like the lagg, well than please say it honest and scratch cyro out of the map. Then we know and finnaly I can clear the PVP guild and revamp it to PVE until the *** up PVE too.

The Zergs create more lag than action, you will still have action with this change and people won’t be spamming cross heals from their Zerg and to the pugs that are surfing the Zerg. Yes I play in small organised groups as well (we have literally killed groups bigger than meridia’s can handle

). It’s still more than possible to do well and have plenty of action in a group of 12 lol, we do it with just 4. And now Zerglings that used to sit in 24 mans and rely on all cross healing might have to actually get better at the game... but of course everyone will complain about actually having to get good and not have everything handed to them lmao.

And btw short you can still do what you do, just with a smaller group and you can probably have more success now too.

Kwoung · November 2020

I am on the fence about this change. On my lower level healers, I tend to just follow groups around, help siege and stay far enough away to not blow them up if hit with Viscous Death. I get my AP from ticks, repairs, etc.. and not being in a group hasn't hurt me in any way other than not being able to keep myself alive at times, because my heals went elsewhere. So this fixes that issue.

That said, when my guild comes out, we *may* have more than 12 players, but not many more, and we would like to play as a team. We generally only have 2 healers, so making 2 groups will be problematic at best. Even if we do the 1 healer per group thing (not smart), there is no way to actually "follow the crown" for the second group. If something was done to address that bit at least, it would help considerably. A beam, crown, whatever that members of "linked groups" could follow, would make life a lot easier. Yeah, its not an issue moving from point A to point B, but when mixing it up in a large battle, knowing where the people you can count on are is important. I would be fine if it only applied to folks in your own guild or that were wearing the guilds tabard in order to see the crown.

nuttytom · November 2020

barrrt wrote: »

Yup, this pretty much kills PVP for anyone playing solo, and who is not a top-tier 1vX player.

Terrible, disappointing change.

Just get better at 1vXing instead of complaining that you can’t do it. You can’t just expect the game to do everything for you lol. You actually have to improve at the game.

Failing that, find a small group to play in or something

Recapitated · November 2020

StaticWave wrote: »

Week 5's test gave the best results for many people. This is a good change imo

I would be more open to this justification if ZOS hadn't explicitly said that's not the reason why they're doing it.

Eclipse0990 · November 2020

I've been playing since the early days of ESO and have seen the PvP start with good amount of learning curve. With time and introduction of skills, sets, mechanics and nerfs to hard to kill things over time, the game became quite easy and friendly for new players. I've levelled Alliance skill levels on almost 15 of my toons and some of the toons meant for PvE had a restoration staff with mutagen. This is because it was easy to get AP this way. Don't group, you don't even have to know what's going on, just spam mutagen and you'll get like 100k an hour following action. Heck, I've done that even on stamina toons. And a lot of players still do that: Sit in the zerg and spam that one skill.

Now, the actual pug/solo healers are going to suffer with this change for sure. But I've no sympathy for people who do next to nothing in the name of leeching and just stay there, surviving off the heals and synergies from other players and dream of making to alliance rank 50! As some said, the changes will force a bunch of players to learn how to play rather than just mindless back and forth in Ales-Bleakers-Chal, Ash-Nikel-Roe or Alessia-Sejanus-BRK corridor, making AP while watching a show on their TV sets.They want it easy, well too bad they can't have it. PvP is meant to be player vs player and nothing stops you from building setups that can help you go solo against 2-3 players and even win, grouped or not. So what it remains is a matter of building the skills and actually giving the game some time to get better at it. No one should look at being carried in PvP.

Coming to group sizes being reduced to 12, it should have been so since the game started or when we first started noticing lags. Right now a lot of game play has evolved around pug groups of 24 going and taking objectives. In my opinion, if the change makes the PvP play really organised, then the same objective can be done by a group of 12 as well. But it does force people to group up when they don't want to build their character for proper solo plays. Personally, as @Leslik said, we all have vested interests. I play in groups that are sized to maximum 12 and hence there is a bias in me accepting the change in group size.
The efficacy of the changes remains to be seen.

alterfenixeb17_ESO · November 2020

Funny thing is that heals such as Ritual of Retribution are not target based which effectively means that only Regeneration from restoration staff skyline and BoL are expected to be affected for templar. This basically means that solo templars following some groups will just have to follow more closely to make use of RoR really. Same goes for warden really as warden is going to have at least 2 healing skills not affected.

TheMightyRevan · November 2020

nuttytom wrote: »

barrrt wrote: »

Yup, this pretty much kills PVP for anyone playing solo, and who is not a top-tier 1vX player.

Terrible, disappointing change.

Just get better at 1vXing instead of complaining that you can’t do it. You can’t just expect the game to do everything for you lol. You actually have to improve at the game.

Failing that, find a small group to play in or something

Hi

Recapitated · November 2020

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

The efficacy of the changes remains to be seen.

Efficacy at what? We don't even know why they're doing this! They talk about players like someone who moved furniture around their living room and said "oh yeah, definitely looks spacious this way."

NotTaylorSwift · November 2020

This is a good change

Most people in cyro run self heals anyway, solo players don't need heals from solo healers. And groups will still be able to heal themselves just fine with any pug healer they can find, probably even without one... The only reason you should have an issue is if you're just a zerg surfer.

NotTaylorSwift · November 2020

alterfenixeb17_ESO wrote: »

Funny thing is that heals such as Ritual of Retribution are not target based which effectively means that only Regeneration from restoration staff skyline and BoL are expected to be affected for templar. This basically means that solo templars following some groups will just have to follow more closely to make use of RoR really. Same goes for warden really as warden is going to have at least 2 healing skills not affected.

nope it's not working like this, any ability that effects an ally is affected. Ground aoe heals also do not work on allies.

Dunning_Kruger · November 2020

Sure are a lot of fake solo players in here. When I think of solo I think of 1vX. Not sitting in my zergs getting free carries then salt whispering people for killing you in your Zerg while “solo”. I honestly thought all those solo players would be happy.

idk · November 2020

nuttytom wrote: »

idk wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

For everyone complaining - why don’t you just try playing solo for once instead of zerging

Changes like this provide a greater advantage for those grouped over those that run solo. Get ready for more groups forming in Cyrodiil.

Smaller groups is a good thing - now you won’t have 2 24 man groups surfing eachother and cross healing whilst creating a *** load of lag. People actually have to play a bit smarter instead of just following a zerg and mindlessly spamming heals 😑

I suggest you read the response I had quoted as they were suggesting the person run solo. I really do not see how your comment has anything to do with what I said or quoted.

Besides, before Zos decreased the pop cap the first time I saw a zone group fill their third group. So if they could run 70 players together the decrease of group size is pretty irrelevant to anyone who still wants to have 24 players running side by side.

LostToTheSea · November 2020

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Sure are a lot of fake solo players in here. When I think of solo I think of 1vX. Not sitting in my zergs getting free carries then salt whispering people for killing you in your Zerg while “solo”. I honestly thought all those solo players would be happy.

Any legitimate 1vXer should and would be unhappy with this change. If it's not fixing lag/desync, then it's only taking away the value from winning over your X. You'll be killing damage dealers with random healers that have no way of healing within their capability those you are 1vXing. That's not a true X. That's just garbage design.

Most of these players I see gloating about this change are Fengrush followers and ball group players. They see Cyrodiil in a vacuum fed by the playstyle they wish to play and view everything else as a lesser way of playing the game. People really think a lesser number of ungrouped players (no matter what number) should not be able to heal faction members vs organized groups, pug raids, or other random players? Really now? Only those that would benefit directly from it would believe that to be a healthy change.

This whole mindset of 'If you're ungrouped and end up around an ally vs a group/pugs/zerg, then you must be a zerg surfer' is just an elitist's way of passively aggressively saying 'I think I'm better than everyone'. We are talking about open world faction-based PVP. If you don't think you+your ally that randomly stumble upon eachother should be able to fight to your combined full capability vs any odds you face, unless you're grouped with them.. then I don't know what to tell you.

There are a vast amount of dynamic encounters that occur in Cyrodiil with allies being able to heal faction members. You shouldn't label anyone who seeks to fight ungrouped, but enjoys wiping a keep being PVDoored by a guild/pug raid with a few randoms as 'just a zerg surfer'. Usually, it's more than clear those players have far more skill than people playing full meta stamina wardens and stamina necromancers claiming they are top-tier 1vXers. Everybody knows that those willing to seek a true challenge in their 1vXs these days are few and far inbetween. Most of those players many act as if they are in the same tier of have long ago left this game, due to performance deterioration and balance/design decisions. RIP Speed Kills and the like.

People need to have this conversation with a level mind and without total bias from their own preferences/playstyle. Not 'if you're not a 1vXer, then you must only zerg surf' or 'just join/lead a group if you want to have any full interaction with another player in an ****Open World setting****. This is open world dynamic encounter PVP. Approach the conversation as such.

If the devs want to solely reduce the lag caused by ally healing, then they would've reworked rapid regeneration stacking and purge spamming (among other abilities) a long time ago. Instead, we are getting the spreadsheet approach. Even when updates that have fundamentally broken this game have been flat out ignored. What a joke.

geonsocal · November 2020

I don't normally group, I do enjoy though fighting with allies...

every single character I play has the ability to heal allies, it's critical to successful A v A v A fighting...not only is it critical - it's a fun part of gameplay...

badmojo · November 2020

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

This is a good change Most people in cyro run self heals anyway, solo players don't need heals from solo healers. And groups will still be able to heal themselves just fine with any pug healer they can find, probably even without one... The only reason you should have an issue is if you're just a zerg surfer.

When you are healing, you aren't doing damage to the enemy.

Do you know how many times I've seen allies backing away from the enemy lines, desperately casting self heals, and then when I start healing them they suddenly start being aggressive and end up killing the enemy they were fighting and pushing on to attack others in the enemy lines? As a dedicated healer my heals are stronger than a solo player, and they can fight while I heal.

I would put my money on a group of 5 brawlers with 1 healer versus a group of 6 brawlers with self heals.

Also, why so much hate for the zerg surfer playstyle? It makes you sound like an infantry man insulting the special forces for not being the standardized soldier that you were trained to be. If players are actively helping the alliance, who cares what playstyle they enjoy? They're following groups without a chevron above their heads? Oh my!

ShortTripToHell · November 2020

nuttytom wrote: »

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

nuttytom wrote: »

For everyone complaining - why don’t you just try playing solo for once instead of zerging

A real question here: what do you mean soloing?

Myself I play in a "organised" group and sometimes small scale ( yes running in a tower and killing)
Playing solo in cyro means or you play a sniper build and piew piew or you run around a tower.

Let's say it is 8pm primetime, everyone is home and ready to play. Can you take solo a keep? Don't think so.
Can a zerg take a keep: yes.

However you want to play: Solo, ballgroup, organised or a zerg surfer. The problem remains the dynamic of the game. People like AP and a bit of fight, not too hard not too easy. Solution? Follow a group and zerg.

Without the pug 24 group Cyro will slow down sooo hard, don't disagree cause we saw it in the tests. In my experience ( leading a organised guild for 2 years ) the zerg creates action. With the change ppl will stay in keeps until a group attacks and the swarm will arrive.

You guys can agree or not but this is what I saw during tests. Do I like it? No, I prefer the dynamic of the game now ( with lagg) then a so called "solution".

If ZOS does not like the lagg, well than please say it honest and scratch cyro out of the map. Then we know and finnaly I can clear the PVP guild and revamp it to PVE until the *** up PVE too.

The Zergs create more lag than action, you will still have action with this change and people won’t be spamming cross heals from their Zerg and to the pugs that are surfing the Zerg. Yes I play in small organised groups as well (we have literally killed groups bigger than meridia’s can handle ). It’s still more than possible to do well and have plenty of action in a group of 12 lol, we do it with just 4. And now Zerglings that used to sit in 24 mans and rely on all cross healing might have to actually get better at the game... but of course everyone will complain about actually having to get good and not have everything handed to them lmao.

And btw short you can still do what you do, just with a smaller group and you can probably have more success now too.

Well I don't know but we as Meridia's run with 12 - 14 ppl so I won't have problems. I already have fixes in place. The little groups are a lot of fun, but that is not the point.

I even hate crosshealing, I do. Healing a random while that tick needed to go to your best DD? Hate it. The only problem I see is the group size. Cyro is build for taking these emp keeps or catching a scroll. Can a group of 4 do that in prime time? I don't believe so. Can a group of 12 do that? Organised yes: ME. Pug? Harder but I don't believe so.

I have already fixes in place with addons and groupleaders but I am fixing something ZOS is breaking which is the MMO. Massive Multiplayer Online -> In Belgium 12 v 12 is not massive.

I'm not here to argue on anything. Your group, my group, other ballgroups, we will have a field day. I am worried that other players are going to suffer. And the argument: oh get good doesn't go. It is a game and should be a game. I know a lot of ppl who look up a build or ask for one and surf the swarm. Is that wrong? No they are having fun. Will it be less fun with the changes, yes I believe so for that kind of ppl.

Luke_Flamesword · November 2020

Simple example - I go to take back resource and there are 4 grouped enemies at place. Also some other 3 players from my faction came, all solo. It won't be time to make a group, so probably we all gonna die, because there will be no fair chances in this situation.

If you think that only solo players carried by zergs complains, than you are wrong. Maybe you just don't know any other ways to play because you never saw Cyrodiil outside zerg

There is a lot of smallscale fights around Cyrodiil when some soloers or small groups meet each other on different occasions. I love to meet some comrades, fight by their side and go in my own direction. This is adventure vibe and I love Cyro for all this spontaneous situations. I don't fight 1vsX beacuse this is stupid, it's good for troll builds or hardcore players but also I don't hide in zergs. If I want zerg, I pick a group and there is no problem. Of course sometimes I go zerg with each other if there is importnat goal (taking scroll, hammer, etc. but this is normal).

Also I have job with very irregular working hours 7 days a week, so I never know when I will play. I'm glad some of you have your guild and discord groups, but not everyone have this privilage so maybe try to see that what's good for you, it can be not good for everyone. You enjoy that you will have better game but by cost of complete destroy of game for some people - it's a shame...

Juhasow · November 2020

Lirkin wrote: »

Making skills only effect your groups sucks in PVP and PVE.

This will work only in Cyrodill.

badmojo · November 2020

Juhasow wrote: »

Lirkin wrote: »

Making skills only effect your groups sucks in PVP and PVE.

This will work only in Cyrodill.

I think he was talking about skills that ZOS has changed over the years to only effect group members. Purge for example can't be used during PVE dragon fights when it would be extremely useful for helping those ungrouped players around you.

nukk3r · November 2020

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

Well I don't know but we as Meridia's run with 12 - 14 ppl so I won't have problems.

Shall we call Count von Count?

josh.lackey_ESO · November 2020

This is not going to change zerg behavior much, since they can just group up. But it will absolutely destroy small scale PvP except for small gank groups. No more finding a friendly trying to flip a resource, or at a choke point, or whatever. No, you have to be in a group with them to be able to heal them. Terrible.

I think it's ok to make some heals or buffs group-only, but it should be done a skill-by-skill basis, not a blanket change.

Most of my PvP these days is just riding out somewhere to see what kind of trouble I can find, not following the main faction zerg. That playstyle is totally ruined, unless I intentionally join a group.

At least there should be some kind of automatic grouping, if this is how it's going to be, so we don't have to futz with the UI constantly.

I don't really have a problem with the 12 group size, I have thought that should be the case for a long time.

Theignson · November 2020

"elite ball groups" (12 man or less) can also be carries. They are carefully composed so each member has a build and function. These builds are not optimized for individual PvP. You take some of these people out of that ball and they die very fast. This was noticeable during aoe testing when the ball groups disappeared. What fun was that! No more crutching on the ball.

The main function of a ball is to stay next to crown and follow crown orders. When you compress 12 people into 10 meters all spamming, you get lag stun. That is the strongest weapon of the ball.

When AOE testing ended, the ball groups came back , and as a solo it is pointless to fight them. They lag stun you from a huge distance, then spam fear/stun/snare/purge/heal until their ultis are up, then they dump it. Meanwhile they run around. What a tired way to play.

Now I am mostly running as solo NB. My first character was stam DK who leveled to GO. If I try to solo with him now I get mobbed half the time. NB at least can almost always survive unless I get over ambitious and chase the target into the zerg. I know there are better players than me who can 1vX with stamDK , stam warden and Necro. But they have to lure people away and LOS them. None of them can 1vX vs the Ball

I propose: abolish all groups in Cyrodil, but allow all cross healing. I will happily then fight anyone in these ball groups. Yes, many better players will beat me. But after all these years I've been killed by virtually everyone on the other factions and killed virtually all of them.

Make it a FREE FOR ALL!!!

marke1 · November 2020

Just throwing this out there because as a solo player this change is going to be difficult . If you disable all stun /CC while grouped but allowing it while solo it would help level the field a bit .

Dunning_Kruger · November 2020

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Sure are a lot of fake solo players in here. When I think of solo I think of 1vX. Not sitting in my zergs getting free carries then salt whispering people for killing you in your Zerg while “solo”. I honestly thought all those solo players would be happy.

Any legitimate 1vXer should and would be unhappy with this change. If it's not fixing lag/desync, then it's only taking away the value from winning over your X. You'll be killing damage dealers with random healers that have no way of healing within their capability those you are 1vXing. That's not a true X. That's just garbage design.

Most of these players I see gloating about this change are Fengrush followers and ball group players. They see Cyrodiil in a vacuum fed by the playstyle they wish to play and view everything else as a lesser way of playing the game. People really think a lesser number of ungrouped players (no matter what number) should not be able to heal faction members vs organized groups, pug raids, or other random players? Really now? Only those that would benefit directly from it would believe that to be a healthy change.

This whole mindset of 'If you're ungrouped and end up around an ally vs a group/pugs/zerg, then you must be a zerg surfer' is just an elitist's way of passively aggressively saying 'I think I'm better than everyone'. We are talking about open world faction-based PVP. If you don't think you+your ally that randomly stumble upon eachother should be able to fight to your combined full capability vs any odds you face, unless you're grouped with them.. then I don't know what to tell you.

There are a vast amount of dynamic encounters that occur in Cyrodiil with allies being able to heal faction members. You shouldn't label anyone who seeks to fight ungrouped, but enjoys wiping a keep being PVDoored by a guild/pug raid with a few randoms as 'just a zerg surfer'. Usually, it's more than clear those players have far more skill than people playing full meta stamina wardens and stamina necromancers claiming they are top-tier 1vXers. Everybody knows that those willing to seek a true challenge in their 1vXs these days are few and far inbetween. Most of those players many act as if they are in the same tier of have long ago left this game, due to performance deterioration and balance/design decisions. RIP Speed Kills and the like.

People need to have this conversation with a level mind and without total bias from their own preferences/playstyle. Not 'if you're not a 1vXer, then you must only zerg surf' or 'just join/lead a group if you want to have any full interaction with another player in an ****Open World setting****. This is open world dynamic encounter PVP. Approach the conversation as such.

If the devs want to solely reduce the lag caused by ally healing, then they would've reworked rapid regeneration stacking and purge spamming (among other abilities) a long time ago. Instead, we are getting the spreadsheet approach. Even when updates that have fundamentally broken this game have been flat out ignored. What a joke.

That’s funny; cause all the real 1vX’rs I know on PC NA only liked this version of the tests.

nukk3r · November 2020

Theignson wrote: »

"elite ball groups" (12 man or less) can also be carries. They are carefully composed so each member has a build and function. These builds are not optimized for individual PvP. You take some of these people out of that ball and they die very fast. This was noticeable during aoe testing when the ball groups disappeared. What fun was that! No more crutching on the ball.

Are you familiar with the concept of raid in MMOs, like people doing stuff in groups? Trial builds for example aren't optimized for solo PvE but we're not getting any threads like "remove grouping for PvE". Ball groups are built specifically to kill zergs. It takes time and effort to balance out and coordinate a group for maximum efficiency.
If you want to play solo, more power to you. By the time you kill several zerglings alone, we can kill 30 and flip a keep. Everyone gets what they came for.

And honestly I can't imagine why a 1vX'er would want to fight a ball. Maybe out of a pure altruism, to help the group with charging their ultis?

KuroyukiESO · November 2020

LostToTheSea wrote: »

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Sure are a lot of fake solo players in here. When I think of solo I think of 1vX. Not sitting in my zergs getting free carries then salt whispering people for killing you in your Zerg while “solo”. I honestly thought all those solo players would be happy.

Any legitimate 1vXer should and would be unhappy with this change. If it's not fixing lag/desync, then it's only taking away the value from winning over your X. You'll be killing damage dealers with random healers that have no way of healing within their capability those you are 1vXing.

Hey there, legitimate 1vXer here https://youtube.com/kuroyukieso for reference. And uh, yeah no. We love this change. This will make 1vX much more tolerable. Please feed me solo healers who are running around not in a group thinking that they can help. PvP can and should be focused on groups of organized players. A real army would not have 100 random no names walking around doing whatever they want after all, since I see lots of people saying "PvP is supposed to be a big war between three factions." Yes, yes it is. So fall in to your 12 man, listen to your crown, and stop whining about not getting free heals from the 30 different 50k hp support builds that you are surrounded by.

Dunning_Kruger · November 2020

Yeah mmos aren’t suppose to be antisocial; time to group up or actually learn how to solo instead of “solo” but getting healed by all the pugs nearby. At least you still get your own nearby pugs damage when you “solo” fight players

LostToTheSea · November 2020

If you guys aren't willing to kite and string your targets out to distance yourself from the healbots keeping your X alive, then all you want is an easier X. As I said, the majority of those who put themselves through a true challenge in their 1vXs and see 1vX for what it should be are long gone. Don't come at me with that. 1vX is 1vX.

KuroyukiESO · November 2020

LostToTheSea wrote: »

If you guys aren't willing to kite and string your targets out to distance yourself from the healbots keeping your X alive, then all you want is an easier X. As I said, the majority of those who put themselves through a true challenge in their 1vXs and see 1vX for what it should be are long gone. Don't come at me with that. 1vX is 1vX.

You basically just said that 1vX is only 1vX if done a certain way, but then said that 1vX is 1vX. Make up your mind. I've been doing this for years regardless, I don't need your blessing to determine whether my fights are valid or not. I was just trying to say that real 1vXers are tired of the carry mechanics in this game, and ZOS is putting forward the steps to fix them. God job ZOS.

idk · November 2020

Theignson wrote: »

Make it a FREE FOR ALL!!!

I agree with this. Scoring is really meaningless since Cyrodiil is not designed to be competitive. With this change most of the sense of the alliances are fighting together is removed. It might as well be a free for all as the new design is intended for me to not care about my alliance mates.