Fuzzybrick wrote: »To play devil's advocate, on console most players taking advantage of animation cancelling are using programmable controllers. There isn't any skill in that.
why is zos pushing so hard for proc sets?
why is zos trying so hard to close the skill gap?
I'm tired of these janky mechanics and constant delays and desyncs just because we have to change block canceling, bash canceling, "lets remove anything skill based while adding things to make the game easier for players like insane damage proc sets", like why would anyone think thats a good idea? the game hasn't felt good in months, maybe almost a year. its not fun its frustrating feeling players just melt you with proc sets that you cant do anything about. how about we care about all players not just the casual base of players? how many dedicated vets left already because y'all dont pay attention to them. "listening to the community" isn't just listening to the majority only or to the casual base only (which i guess is the majority?). vets know damn well what mechanics are good and what mechanics are cheese or exploits and thats what the class reps should be but i doubt y'all listen to them cause no one in their right mind would have said "yo lets remove block canceling to bring vets closer to new players". come on zos, bring good eso back please
Do casual players actually like these insane damage bursts that proc you to death in a microsecond? Because I doubt they do.
i mean when ever i ask people why they use proc sets they say "its in the game" or some half assed answer like they know its cheesy but its over performing and thats all it takes. do they like it? thats not really it, i think they dont care, they will use what ever is performing the best, lack of build diversity is another huge issue the current meta and recent changes to the game have brought on. i am pretty sure casuals dont care for the set but like the damage, they like the numbers and how the sets perform.
Fuzzybrick wrote: »To play devil's advocate, on console most players taking advantage of animation cancelling are using programmable controllers. There isn't any skill in that.
why is zos pushing so hard for proc sets?
why is zos trying so hard to close the skill gap?
I'm tired of these janky mechanics and constant delays and desyncs just because we have to change block canceling, bash canceling, "lets remove anything skill based while adding things to make the game easier for players like insane damage proc sets", like why would anyone think thats a good idea? the game hasn't felt good in months, maybe almost a year. its not fun its frustrating feeling players just melt you with proc sets that you cant do anything about. how about we care about all players not just the casual base of players? how many dedicated vets left already because y'all dont pay attention to them. "listening to the community" isn't just listening to the majority only or to the casual base only (which i guess is the majority?). vets know damn well what mechanics are good and what mechanics are cheese or exploits and thats what the class reps should be but i doubt y'all listen to them cause no one in their right mind would have said "yo lets remove block canceling to bring vets closer to new players". come on zos, bring good eso back please
Idk.
A lot of vets are still here, & many new players. PS4 Is always busy.
Simplify combat (pve & pvp) so not to push new, & average/casual players away.
Change things like combat, skills, cd's, etc...game side stuff for next gen, longevity, stability, & performance.
& we haven't even got to the CP update yet.
2c
on pc we lost players like moontan, akean, darkshadey, mrpig. many non streaming but very talented players as well.
the combat was already simple it was just different. and people dont like that. eso hasnt gained more people. its lost and or stayed still in player base. dont fix something thats not broken because all they did was simplify to help new players feel like they arent out matched when they are and should be because theyre new, and vets and competitive players give up because this lack luster combat.
thats expected, but what is NOT okay is deleting class identity and pushing for a meta where sets do the work.
cp should have stayed around 600, cp is one of the biggest balancing issues with the game, if proc sets weren't so powerful right now no cp would feel more playable.
(keep in mind, most of my point of view is strictly pvp, since my pve experience is solo a dungeon cause i need a set and thats it.)
OneForSorrow wrote: »why is zos pushing so hard for proc sets?
why is zos trying so hard to close the skill gap?
I'm tired of these janky mechanics and constant delays and desyncs just because we have to change block canceling, bash canceling, "lets remove anything skill based while adding things to make the game easier for players like insane damage proc sets", like why would anyone think thats a good idea? the game hasn't felt good in months, maybe almost a year. its not fun its frustrating feeling players just melt you with proc sets that you cant do anything about. how about we care about all players not just the casual base of players? how many dedicated vets left already because y'all dont pay attention to them. "listening to the community" isn't just listening to the majority only or to the casual base only (which i guess is the majority?). vets know damn well what mechanics are good and what mechanics are cheese or exploits and thats what the class reps should be but i doubt y'all listen to them cause no one in their right mind would have said "yo lets remove block canceling to bring vets closer to new players". come on zos, bring good eso back please
I am going to get completely wrecked for this but animation cancelling, specifically the "weave" version that is meta for all dps specs, should go the way of the dodo.
Animation cancelling should exist as a way of getting us out of harms way, yes, but not as a dps increase....
....At least, not in the game in its current form. I know it's not a bug but the game was never made with animation cancelling in mind. And boy howdy does a shoddy connection interfere with your ability to do it well. Also the servers interfere with your ability to do it well.
Now if they ever do a ESO II with better server structure and actually build cancelling into the game properly I'd actually be for that. I'm not against cancelling on principle.
All of that said gear sets that provide passive procs is probably not the most awesome way to even out dps between the vets and the new, no. There is nothing interesting about that.
Fuzzybrick wrote: »To play devil's advocate, on console most players taking advantage of animation cancelling are using programmable controllers. There isn't any skill in that.
Fuzzybrick wrote: »To play devil's advocate, on console most players taking advantage of animation cancelling are using programmable controllers. There isn't any skill in that.
why is zos pushing so hard for proc sets?
why is zos trying so hard to close the skill gap?
I'm tired of these janky mechanics and constant delays and desyncs just because we have to change block canceling, bash canceling, "lets remove anything skill based while adding things to make the game easier for players like insane damage proc sets", like why would anyone think thats a good idea? the game hasn't felt good in months, maybe almost a year. its not fun its frustrating feeling players just melt you with proc sets that you cant do anything about. how about we care about all players not just the casual base of players? how many dedicated vets left already because y'all dont pay attention to them. "listening to the community" isn't just listening to the majority only or to the casual base only (which i guess is the majority?). vets know damn well what mechanics are good and what mechanics are cheese or exploits and thats what the class reps should be but i doubt y'all listen to them cause no one in their right mind would have said "yo lets remove block canceling to bring vets closer to new players". come on zos, bring good eso back please
Do casual players actually like these insane damage bursts that proc you to death in a microsecond? Because I doubt they do.
i mean when ever i ask people why they use proc sets they say "its in the game" or some half assed answer like they know its cheesy but its over performing and thats all it takes. do they like it? thats not really it, i think they dont care, they will use what ever is performing the best, lack of build diversity is another huge issue the current meta and recent changes to the game have brought on. i am pretty sure casuals dont care for the set but like the damage, they like the numbers and how the sets perform.
I consider myself a casual player and I loath and despise all these cheesy proc sets and the over-the-top offense. It's nearly ruined PvP for me. Luckily I've been able to find a niche build that can actually stay alive and be decently effective in certain types of battlegrounds. Otherwise I would have already quit this game's ______ PvP. So I'm basically hanging on by a thread.
That's also the number one complaint I hear from casual players I know who hate this game's PvP. It's how they just get melted and are practically incinerated as if the sun imploded into a black hole and sucked you inside. It's literally just a bunch of people darting around like chickens with their heads cuts off unleashing ridiculous burst damage then hiding behind rocks and healing. It feels more like a game of paintball on crack than any kind of hack and slash medieval combat. So I just really doubt casuals like this crapfest.
I would imagine the people who are more likely to enjoy this kind of PvP are coordinated PvP-focused players who have teams and synchronize their attacks to obliterate other players. In other words: the exact opposite of casual players. So if you're right and they actually are trying to appeal to casual players then I would contend they are doing a terrible job. But who knows: maybe I and others I know are the exception and most casuals do actually like this. If there are any casual players who do prefer this kind of PvP maybe they'll speak up in this thread and let themselves be known. Because I'm actually curious now.
YandereGirlfriend wrote: »You could also just make a special rule for Battle Spirit that proc set damage is nerfed 75% rather than the usual 50%.
You could then adjust that rule as necessary to make room for stronger PvE proc sets without also blowing up PvP balance.
OneForSorrow wrote: »why is zos pushing so hard for proc sets?
why is zos trying so hard to close the skill gap?
I'm tired of these janky mechanics and constant delays and desyncs just because we have to change block canceling, bash canceling, "lets remove anything skill based while adding things to make the game easier for players like insane damage proc sets", like why would anyone think thats a good idea? the game hasn't felt good in months, maybe almost a year. its not fun its frustrating feeling players just melt you with proc sets that you cant do anything about. how about we care about all players not just the casual base of players? how many dedicated vets left already because y'all dont pay attention to them. "listening to the community" isn't just listening to the majority only or to the casual base only (which i guess is the majority?). vets know damn well what mechanics are good and what mechanics are cheese or exploits and thats what the class reps should be but i doubt y'all listen to them cause no one in their right mind would have said "yo lets remove block canceling to bring vets closer to new players". come on zos, bring good eso back please
I am going to get completely wrecked for this but animation cancelling, specifically the "weave" version that is meta for all dps specs, should go the way of the dodo.
Animation cancelling should exist as a way of getting us out of harms way, yes, but not as a dps increase....
....At least, not in the game in its current form. I know it's not a bug but the game was never made with animation cancelling in mind. And boy howdy does a shoddy connection interfere with your ability to do it well. Also the servers interfere with your ability to do it well.
Now if they ever do a ESO II with better server structure and actually build cancelling into the game properly I'd actually be for that. I'm not against cancelling on principle.
All of that said gear sets that provide passive procs is probably not the most awesome way to even out dps between the vets and the new, no. There is nothing interesting about that.
YandereGirlfriend wrote: »You could also just make a special rule for Battle Spirit that proc set damage is nerfed 75% rather than the usual 50%.
You could then adjust that rule as necessary to make room for stronger PvE proc sets without also blowing up PvP balance.
this is a fair and smart idea. that could at least be tested
Recapitated wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »You could also just make a special rule for Battle Spirit that proc set damage is nerfed 75% rather than the usual 50%.
You could then adjust that rule as necessary to make room for stronger PvE proc sets without also blowing up PvP balance.
this is a fair and smart idea. that could at least be tested
People have come up with all sorts of overall solutions.
- Tune procs down, allow them to crit again, making them more usable in pvp
- make proc sets cause each other to go on a cooldown of a few seconds, so you have to engage for a few seconds to unload them on someone
- make them scale off offensive stats to discourage high health high sustain builds
- convert them to stat buffs, e.g. Sheer Venom could add 20% damage to your executes and up to 80% based on missing health. Instead of doing all the work for you that would create conditions you can exploit with a good combo.
Recapitated wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »You could also just make a special rule for Battle Spirit that proc set damage is nerfed 75% rather than the usual 50%.
You could then adjust that rule as necessary to make room for stronger PvE proc sets without also blowing up PvP balance.
this is a fair and smart idea. that could at least be tested
People have come up with all sorts of overall solutions.
- Tune procs down, allow them to crit again, making them more usable in pvp
- make proc sets cause each other to go on a cooldown of a few seconds, so you have to engage for a few seconds to unload them on someone
- make them scale off offensive stats to discourage high health high sustain builds
- convert them to stat buffs, e.g. Sheer Venom could add 20% damage to your executes and up to 80% based on missing health. Instead of doing all the work for you that would create conditions you can exploit with a good combo.
I don't think proc sets are the problem specifically. We've had proc sets before and PvP wasn't like this. The game is just balanced in favor of offense currently. They reduced healing and defenses then buffed damage - so it was easy to see this coming from a mile away. And many of us did.
Recapitated wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »You could also just make a special rule for Battle Spirit that proc set damage is nerfed 75% rather than the usual 50%.
You could then adjust that rule as necessary to make room for stronger PvE proc sets without also blowing up PvP balance.
this is a fair and smart idea. that could at least be tested
People have come up with all sorts of overall solutions.
- Tune procs down, allow them to crit again, making them more usable in pvp
- make proc sets cause each other to go on a cooldown of a few seconds, so you have to engage for a few seconds to unload them on someone
- make them scale off offensive stats to discourage high health high sustain builds
- convert them to stat buffs, e.g. Sheer Venom could add 20% damage to your executes and up to 80% based on missing health. Instead of doing all the work for you that would create conditions you can exploit with a good combo.
I don't think proc sets are the problem specifically. We've had proc sets before and PvP wasn't like this. The game is just balanced in favor of offense currently. They reduced healing and defenses then buffed damage - so it was easy to see this coming from a mile away. And many of us did.
Any meta is going to result from a perfect storm of factors but proc sets were buffed this patch (more damage and they took the "random" out of "probability of random occurence"), that's why they're so common. Previously they didn't do enough damage aside from a few exceptions and they weren't predictable enough to make them part and parcel of a combo.
You can tune them back down to what they were doing before but IMO they have the potential to add a lot of flavour to pvp combat beyond what your class has access to.
Do casual players actually like these insane damage bursts ... ?
Do casual players actually like these insane damage bursts ... ?
Yes.
But I dont care, at all, about PvP.
MMO PvP is almost always garbage if the game isnt designed around it, because MMO PC's are designed around killing and not being killed by things with tens of thousands to hundreds of millions more HP and significantly higher damage output. If your mechanics arent basically making PvP a different game, its either a BOOPfest, or youre playing until someone sneezes or coughs slightly more often and your war of who gets more incredibly tiny advantages can finally end.
why is zos pushing so hard for proc sets?
why is zos trying so hard to close the skill gap?
I'm tired of these janky mechanics and constant delays and desyncs just because we have to change block canceling, bash canceling, "lets remove anything skill based while adding things to make the game easier for players like insane damage proc sets", like why would anyone think thats a good idea? the game hasn't felt good in months, maybe almost a year. its not fun its frustrating feeling players just melt you with proc sets that you cant do anything about. how about we care about all players not just the casual base of players? how many dedicated vets left already because y'all dont pay attention to them. "listening to the community" isn't just listening to the majority only or to the casual base only (which i guess is the majority?). vets know damn well what mechanics are good and what mechanics are cheese or exploits and thats what the class reps should be but i doubt y'all listen to them cause no one in their right mind would have said "yo lets remove block canceling to bring vets closer to new players". come on zos, bring good eso back please
The salt due to cancelling mechanics changes is real... it's enough to salt a full cow and cook it!
Sorry, but although late, ZOS understood that shenenigans like theose force stuff that is not stated or intended as a mandatory mechanic. All your talk of floors and ceilings sums up to "i don't have that special trick anymore". Half this thread is not about proc sets, its about not enjoying something when the ground is more even.
I'm not saying we have perfect PvP, just the lag (EU here) is enough to drop the game enterely, but gear/abilities wise they have tried to make the ground more even, and that is where the supposed "skill" should shine.
Recapitated wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »You could also just make a special rule for Battle Spirit that proc set damage is nerfed 75% rather than the usual 50%.
You could then adjust that rule as necessary to make room for stronger PvE proc sets without also blowing up PvP balance.
this is a fair and smart idea. that could at least be tested
People have come up with all sorts of overall solutions.
- Tune procs down, allow them to crit again, making them more usable in pvp
- make proc sets cause each other to go on a cooldown of a few seconds, so you have to engage for a few seconds to unload them on someone
- make them scale off offensive stats to discourage high health high sustain builds
- convert them to stat buffs, e.g. Sheer Venom could add 20% damage to your executes and up to 80% based on missing health. Instead of doing all the work for you that would create conditions you can exploit with a good combo.
barney2525 wrote: »Too bad the system can't differentiate between PCs and NPCs. Could have X effect vs NPCs and Y effect vs PCs all on the same set.
Personally I think it would have been better to rebalance mobs rather than sets (when making changes to the game). For example if a set is performing not too great in PvP but over performing in PvE, just retune the mobs or at least just the boss, no need to destroy the set completely. As for PvP set balancing, I'm unsure but proc sets are a major issue and should not be in the state they are in currently (idk how they perform in PvE cause I never PvE).
Recapitated wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »Too bad the system can't differentiate between PCs and NPCs. Could have X effect vs NPCs and Y effect vs PCs all on the same set.
Honestly there's so many sets out there I really don't see the need to turn the 5pc bonuses into a Swiss army knife
One of the big complaints I see on here is that characters have to store multiple sets in inventory, depending on whether they are doing PvP or PvE. This way you could have one set you wear that is effective in both PvE and PvP.
Item storage problems should be solved with changes to item storage, not combat mechanics. Just add an armoury chest similar to the craft bag if that's the concern.
Recapitated wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »Too bad the system can't differentiate between PCs and NPCs. Could have X effect vs NPCs and Y effect vs PCs all on the same set.
Honestly there's so many sets out there I really don't see the need to turn the 5pc bonuses into a Swiss army knife
One of the big complaints I see on here is that characters have to store multiple sets in inventory, depending on whether they are doing PvP or PvE. This way you could have one set you wear that is effective in both PvE and PvP.
Item storage problems should be solved with changes to item storage, not combat mechanics. Just add an armoury chest similar to the craft bag if that's the concern.
With server performance being what it is Zos will not add an armory. It is why we got this stickerbook system they just added.
We know they will not add an armory because they already said they would not add a furniture bag and that would help crown sales. Since some players are bursting at the seams with furniture they are less willing to buy crown store furnishings. Zos noticed that there are a lot more unique items of furniture (just as there are a lot more of unique items in armor and weapons, and that increase the server load.
OneForSorrow wrote: »--snip.
at least we agree on the last part. as for animation canceling, i appreciate it for its highest skill ceiling. it adds different levels of skill tiers. low, low med, med, med high, high. that kind of stuff. i always compare it to tech skill in super smash bros melee.
OneForSorrow wrote: »OneForSorrow wrote: »--snip.
at least we agree on the last part. as for animation canceling, i appreciate it for its highest skill ceiling. it adds different levels of skill tiers. low, low med, med, med high, high. that kind of stuff. i always compare it to tech skill in super smash bros melee.
I appreciate the skill ceiling involved in cancelling and weaving in a perfect world. My issue, as I said, isn't with the idea of it. My issue is that the game doesn't actually support it. There are a looot of people who actually time out their weaves well but the server doesn't recognize that they've pushed a button when they did.
We need more stable servers if they want to push weaving as meta. I'm sure the PvP crowd would benefit from that too.