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15% or so increased PVE Tank incoming damage intended?
delkurz
✭
I wanted to check that the increased damage PVE tanks will be taking in U28 is intended. The changes to minor maim and minor protection represent a 15.4% increase in PVE tank incoming damage which seems like a big jump. Some other changes help/hurt some depending on the change but the maim and protection changes are pretty significant to PVE tanks.
Maths - lots of other mitigation is involved but isolating the maim and protection part below
Live:
minor maim lets 85% of the damage through
minor protection lets 92% of the damage through
With both up they let through 0.85*0.92 = 78.2% of the damage
PTS:
minor maim lets 95% of the damage through
minor protection letys 95% of the damage through
with both up they let through 0.95*0.95 = 90.25% of the damage
So onlive you would take 78.2 damage out of 100 (post all other mitigation)
While on PTS you take 90.25 damage out of 100 (post all other mitigation)
90.25 PTS versus 78.2 Live represents a 15.4% increase in damage taken moving from live to PTS.
Maths - lots of other mitigation is involved but isolating the maim and protection part below
Live:
minor maim lets 85% of the damage through
minor protection lets 92% of the damage through
With both up they let through 0.85*0.92 = 78.2% of the damage
PTS:
minor maim lets 95% of the damage through
minor protection letys 95% of the damage through
with both up they let through 0.95*0.95 = 90.25% of the damage
So onlive you would take 78.2 damage out of 100 (post all other mitigation)
While on PTS you take 90.25 damage out of 100 (post all other mitigation)
90.25 PTS versus 78.2 Live represents a 15.4% increase in damage taken moving from live to PTS.
11
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Kurat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tanking is too easy and boring, that's why theres not enough of them. And tanks are not needed for most content, including vets.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@delkurz
I think the math being used here is in a vacuum and as such is missing a lot of very pertinent calculations which is likely leading to inaccurate results. Since I am not wanting to hurt my brain with thinking right now I will tag @paulsimonps who is the foremost expert on the forums of damage mitigation.
You can also view his thread on damage mitigation below. It is updated for live, not PTS, but the formulas are still appropriate for both.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p12 -
Saubon✭✭✭There will be quite relliable source of major maim, so those changes won't be so dramatic if you actually need such reductions1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nothing special, this happens everytime.
1. Badly nerf old things,
2. Provide viable replacement but acquirable only in new DLC,
3. Profit.
Void Bash will make up for most of the mitigation lost. And in encounters where you need huge mitigation (e.g. hard mode Lord Falgravn, hard mode Nahviintas ...) off tanks usualy don't have special role so they can reliably keep Major Maim for you.3 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PVE is quiet EZ if you have a fixed group or in a PVE guild .
PUG is pretty hard especially you like to PUG VET DLC .0 -
Saubon✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Nothing special, this happens everytime.
1. Badly nerf old things,
2. Provide viable replacement but acquirable only in new DLC,
3. Profit.
Void Bash will make up for most of the mitigation lost. And in encounters where you need huge mitigation (e.g. hard mode Lord Falgravn, hard mode Nahviintas ...) off tanks usualy don't have special role so they can reliably keep Major Maim for you.
Just maybe, we'll see more sorc tanks next patch
0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.
Live
My resistance= 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 15%
Minor Protection = 8%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation
PTS
My resistance = 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 5%
Minor Protection = 5%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.
So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank(obviously it varies). But I see no problems for tanks with these changes at all. Now in PvP or the DPS and healers and in PvE might feel a pretty more significant difference from this but not the tanks. I mean in PvP some use Minor Maim as one of their main sources of mitigation and they don't get as many as us tanks so will probably hurt them far more than us.
But again, tanks, don't worry.
Oh and I did not account for the changes in resistance as Resolve is getting a slight buff as well. but it would not change this much at all, just close the gap slightly more.13 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.
Live
My resistance= 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 15%
Minor Protection = 8%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation
PTS
My resistance = 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 5%
Minor Protection = 5%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.
So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank(obviously it varies). But I see no problems for tanks with these changes at all. Now in PvP or the DPS and healers and in PvE might feel a pretty more significant difference from this but not the tanks. I mean in PvP some use Minor Maim as one of their main sources of mitigation and they don't get as many as us tanks so will probably hurt them far more than us.
But again, tanks, don't worry.
Oh and I did not account for the changes in resistance as Resolve is getting a slight buff as well. but it would not change this much at all, just close the gap slightly more.
Tanks won't be affected much but it's the group who will suffer the most from Minor Maim changes.1 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.
Live
My resistance= 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 15%
Minor Protection = 8%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation
PTS
My resistance = 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 5%
Minor Protection = 5%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.
So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank(obviously it varies). But I see no problems for tanks with these changes at all. Now in PvP or the DPS and healers and in PvE might feel a pretty more significant difference from this but not the tanks. I mean in PvP some use Minor Maim as one of their main sources of mitigation and they don't get as many as us tanks so will probably hurt them far more than us.
But again, tanks, don't worry.
Oh and I did not account for the changes in resistance as Resolve is getting a slight buff as well. but it would not change this much at all, just close the gap slightly more.
Tanks won't be affected much but it's the group who will suffer the most from Minor Maim changes.
Which is what I said.1 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭So on the PTS, for every 100 points of incoming damage they take 11.35 points of damage, which is a 15.8% larger number than the 9.8 points of damage they take on live.1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So "unoptimized" groups will get punished more than "optimized" groups, the opposite of the Dev Comments on the change.
But they clearly stated that they wanted to increase damage taken and reduce damage done. So yes. Intended.Edited by katorga on October 23, 2020 1:21PM1 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭They added some damage-taken reduction back into the game with changes to minor/major cowardice.
You can debuff targets with up to 645 reduced spell/weapon damage, but it involves running a set, or a poison, or a skill that reduces DPS.
They also removed the unique debuffs from those things, but I don't think a lot of people were using them.Edited by MudcrabAttack on October 23, 2020 2:02PM0 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So "unoptimized" groups will get punished more than "optimized" groups, the opposite of the Dev Comments on the change.
But they clearly stated that they wanted to increase damage taken and reduce damage done. So yes. Intended.
It's not uncommon for them to implement changes that have the opposite result than what they intended.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA5 -
delkurz✭paulsimonps wrote: »My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.
Live
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation
PTS
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.
So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank
Yes, 1.55% more absolute damage, which when starting at 9.8% damage taken, as @MudcrabAttack mentioned, is a ~15% increase in damage taken from live to PTS. If you take X damage on live, you will take about X*1.15 on U28 based on all the above.
2 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It appears to me as though ZOS is giving the people what they have asked for.
Healers have long felt (and have been in fact) superfluous for experienced dungeon runners and with these changes returning more damage to the group via the nerfed m/M Maims, more damage is being dealt to players which will necessitate stronger healing which will (potentially) necessitate an actual healer.
In other words, this is sort of achieving "Make PvE bosses do more damage (so that healers are needed)" by another means - nerfing mitigation rather than actually increasing raw boss damage.
Personally, I like the ideal of tanks having to build for survivability and healers focusing on healing, doing more of their on paper role rather than being relegated to "buff bots." Elite groups will, as usual, likely side-step these changes, but hopefully ZOS will get around to changing things for them with more targeted nerfs.6 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭There are other factors to consider.
Resistances got a buff, penetration got a huge buff (which increases DPS and reduces encounter times), sustain got a buff. Plus, Ice Staff is now a very good option which is an improvement over Lightning Staves.
I'm pretty sure that this will be a net gain for tanks when all the variables are factored in the full equation for next patch.
Let's see, though. "Tooltip Theorycrafting" rarely works.2 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭So "unoptimized" groups will get punished more than "optimized" groups, the opposite of the Dev Comments on the change.
But they clearly stated that they wanted to increase damage taken and reduce damage done. So yes. Intended.
It's not uncommon for them to implement changes that have the opposite result than what they intended.
Lol... This is so true it hurts to admit...1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »It appears to me as though ZOS is giving the people what they have asked for.
Healers have long felt (and have been in fact) superfluous for experienced dungeon runners and with these changes returning more damage to the group via the nerfed m/M Maims, more damage is being dealt to players which will necessitate stronger healing which will (potentially) necessitate an actual healer.
In other words, this is sort of achieving "Make PvE bosses do more damage (so that healers are needed)" by another means - nerfing mitigation rather than actually increasing raw boss damage.
Personally, I like the ideal of tanks having to build for survivability and healers focusing on healing, doing more of their on paper role rather than being relegated to "buff bots." Elite groups will, as usual, likely side-step these changes, but hopefully ZOS will get around to changing things for them with more targeted nerfs.
Yes. One of the reasons healers are not needed is that mechanics are usually black or white: either irrelevant or one-shots.
Increasing overall damage by a small amount is, IMO, the right way to make healers needed again.
Make that DOT just 10% more than a DPS can safely out-heal, and you need an extra heal boost.
Very nice observation!Edited by Calm_Fury on October 24, 2020 12:47AM1 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.
Live
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation
PTS
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.
So we got a difference in 1.55% total damage mitigation from those numbers as a basically meta tank
Yes, 1.55% more absolute damage, which when starting at 9.8% damage taken, as @MudcrabAttack mentioned, is a ~15% increase in damage taken from live to PTS. If you take X damage on live, you will take about X*1.15 on U28 based on all the above.
Which for tanks is basically nothing. Again, will only affect the non tank roles and PvP. I'm also gonna assume that this change was done to again limit damage done in Trials. What I think they might be trying is to make us take more damage again, via lowered mitigation, but we have seen time again that more damage taken has not change player behavior to incorporate more defensive styles, rather the opposite is more likely to happen as people will try to push past said mechanics.2 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »It appears to me as though ZOS is giving the people what they have asked for.
Healers have long felt (and have been in fact) superfluous for experienced dungeon runners and with these changes returning more damage to the group via the nerfed m/M Maims, more damage is being dealt to players which will necessitate stronger healing which will (potentially) necessitate an actual healer.
In other words, this is sort of achieving "Make PvE bosses do more damage (so that healers are needed)" by another means - nerfing mitigation rather than actually increasing raw boss damage.
Personally, I like the ideal of tanks having to build for survivability and healers focusing on healing, doing more of their on paper role rather than being relegated to "buff bots." Elite groups will, as usual, likely side-step these changes, but hopefully ZOS will get around to changing things for them with more targeted nerfs.
Yes. One of the reasons healers are not needed is that mechanics are usually black or white: either irrelevant or one-shots.
Increasing overall damage by a small amount is, IMO, the right way to make healers needed again.
Make that DOT just 10% more than a DPS can safely out-heal, and you need an extra heal boost.
Very nice observation!
Why they reworked Banis Torment, significantly increased uptime on Vrol Command or introduced Void Bash then?
Just by using Void Bash (a 2-piece set easily combined with Powerful Assault without losing Monster set) you can get to +- same group mitigation level as before patch. This still seems to me just another Iceheart/M.Ciannait change rather than effort to make healers relevant.Edited by Olupajmibanan on October 24, 2020 7:10AM0 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »It appears to me as though ZOS is giving the people what they have asked for.
Healers have long felt (and have been in fact) superfluous for experienced dungeon runners and with these changes returning more damage to the group via the nerfed m/M Maims, more damage is being dealt to players which will necessitate stronger healing which will (potentially) necessitate an actual healer.
In other words, this is sort of achieving "Make PvE bosses do more damage (so that healers are needed)" by another means - nerfing mitigation rather than actually increasing raw boss damage.
Personally, I like the ideal of tanks having to build for survivability and healers focusing on healing, doing more of their on paper role rather than being relegated to "buff bots." Elite groups will, as usual, likely side-step these changes, but hopefully ZOS will get around to changing things for them with more targeted nerfs.
Yes. One of the reasons healers are not needed is that mechanics are usually black or white: either irrelevant or one-shots.
Increasing overall damage by a small amount is, IMO, the right way to make healers needed again.
Make that DOT just 10% more than a DPS can safely out-heal, and you need an extra heal boost.
Very nice observation!
Why they reworked Banis Torment, significantly increased uptime on Vrol Command or introduced Void Bash then?
Just by using Void Bash (a 2-piece set easily combined with Powerful Assault without losing Monster set) you can get to +- same group mitigation level as before patch. This still seems to me just another Iceheart/M.Ciannait change rather than effort to make healers relevant.
We're not saying that they did made that change to make healers relevant. We're just saying that it might be one way to do it.
And you answered your own question: by using Void Bash (a 2 piece set). Having to use another set to get this is not nothing. Most groups will avoid having to do this at all costs.
I could also say "just drop Ebon / Alkosh" and use "Fortified Brass / Lord Warden". That is not a "small" change.
I don't think this is to make healers relevant or will make healers relevant. I just think that this would be ONE way to do it if they ever wanted that.
Most likely Minor Brittle and other changes to sustain will make damage increase once again in the final result and mechanics will just be skipped instead of healed or resisted through.0 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not really worried about change with my Tank.
I even play it vampire 4 and all is fine so..
[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
[ Khajiit ]
[ Templar - Healer ]
[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]0 -
Saubon✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.
Live
My resistance= 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 15%
Minor Protection = 8%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation
PTS
My resistance = 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 5%
Minor Protection = 5%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.
Oh and I did not account for the changes in resistance as Resolve is getting a slight buff as well. but it would not change this much at all, just close the gap slightly more.
Block bonuses (SnB, defensive stance, iron skin, bound aegis, footman set) stack additively. If you have SnB, iron skin, defensive stance 20%+10%+10% its flat 40% bonus mitigation instead of 0,8*0,9*0,9=35,2%.
LIVE: Total 0.5881*0.6*0.5*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.0911 aka 90.89% total mitigation
PTS: Total 0.5881*0.6*0.5*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1052 aka 89.48% total mitigation
The difference between 90,89% and 89,48% is 15,47% dmg taken
Now if you add major maim which will be much easier to get
PTS: Total 0.5881*0.6*0.5*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79*0.9=0.0946 aka 90.54% total mitigation
The difference between 90,89% and 90,54% is 3,84% dmg taken
Now if you add armor bonus from buffed resolve as you mentioned, the difference will be even less
EDIT: now I've realised you've made dmg mitigation guide I've been using whole time, sorry mate
Edited by Saubon on October 26, 2020 8:10AM2 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »My Current Set up with 5-1-1 armor, Yolna Alkosh with nothing other than Defensive stance being able to be considered adding to mitigation out of the current norm.
Live
My resistance= 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 15%
Minor Protection = 8%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.098 aka 90.2% Total mitigation
PTS
My resistance = 27187 aka 41.19%
Sword and Board = 20%
DK's Iron Skin = 10%
Blocking = 50%
Defensive Stance = 10%
Minor Maim = 5%
Minor Protection = 5%
Minor Aegis = 5%
Elemental Defender/Hardy = 12%
Ironclad/Thick Skin = 21%
Total 0.5881*0.8*0.9*0.5*0.9*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1135 aka 88.65% total mitigation.
Oh and I did not account for the changes in resistance as Resolve is getting a slight buff as well. but it would not change this much at all, just close the gap slightly more.
Block bonuses (SnB, defensive stance, iron skin, bound aegis, footman set) stack additively. If you have SnB, iron skin, defensive stance 20%+10%+10% its flat 40% bonus mitigation instead of 0,8*0,9*0,9=35,2%.
LIVE: Total 0.5881*0.6*0.5*0.85*0.92*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.0911 aka 90.89% total mitigation
PTS: Total 0.5881*0.6*0.5*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79=0.1052 aka 89.48% total mitigation
The difference between 90,89% and 89,48% is 15,47% dmg taken
Now if you add major maim which will be much easier to get
PTS: Total 0.5881*0.6*0.5*0.95*0.95*0.95*0.88*0.79*0.9=0.0946 aka 90.54% total mitigation
The difference between 90,89% and 90,54% is 3,84% dmg taken
Now if you add armor bonus from buffed resolve as you mentioned, the difference will be even less
EDIT: now I've realised you've made dmg mitigation guide I've been using whole time, sorry mate
you are right though that I made a mistake and used the old formula LOL. I was lacking sleep writing that one, thats my official excuse for messing up my own fricking formula
Though the effect of the changes still stay the same, mostly gonna effect DPS and PvP players, though don't think its actually gonna change anyone's set up or team comp Edited by paulsimonps on October 26, 2020 11:59AM2 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Tanking is too easy and boring, that's why theres not enough of them. And tanks are not needed for most content, including vets.
There are not enough of them because of people like this.
Do you try to tank some thing, may be normal FG ?
May be nFG is really easy, but not with DD who kill it for ages.Edited by AyaDark on October 26, 2020 2:48PM1
