The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Nerfing single proc set like Sheer Venom is a mistake becouse changes should be much deeper
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »And seeing as thats it right? I mean no more nerfs?
Can safely gold out my replacement for sheer now right?
Knowing Zos, proc nerfs will come next patch, most sets will be completely worthless after that.
And of course they won't balance classes again, since they're doing sets.1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »And seeing as thats it right? I mean no more nerfs?
Can safely gold out my replacement for sheer now right?
Knowing Zos, proc nerfs will come next patch, most sets will be completely worthless after that.
And of course they won't balance classes again, since they're doing sets.
Nerfed proc sets, aoe cooldowns, ally healing nerfs pushing people to self only heal morphs.... long live the tank meta!RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.0 -
FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭techyeshic wrote: »
I agree. You can go higher health and stage 3 vamp so much easier w procs0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »And seeing as thats it right? I mean no more nerfs?
Can safely gold out my replacement for sheer now right?
Knowing Zos, proc nerfs will come next patch, most sets will be completely worthless after that.
And of course they won't balance classes again, since they're doing sets.
Nerfed proc sets, aoe cooldowns, ally healing nerfs pushing people to self only heal morphs.... long live the tank meta!
Ironic that the "tank meta" is directly fueled by procs not scaling with your offensive stats weapon/spell damage or magicka/stam.
This means every single offensive investment you do reduces the effectiveness of your build as procs will still completely take care of your offence even when running a full tank build.
The way to go for stamden in no cp:
40k+ HP + 3 procs and putting everything into sustain and then kill people afk while they can't touch you through Arctic blasts heal
I too enjoy this complete abstinence of a tank meta...6 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Sheer venom wasn´t nerfed enough if you ask me. Effortless damage procs should be deleted from the game, or have hard proc conditions.
You equip Leviathan, your Poison Injections are more likely to proc Critical Damage. You equip Sheer Venom, instead it applies an additional DOT. I personally don't see such a strict dichotomy between effortful damage and effortless damage. It's a complicated game with many different things going on.
Comparing leviathan to sheer venom to support Your argumentation is literally one of the worst examples You could give. In no CP PvP everyone have now 20% basic crit dmg reduction and 50-60% crit dmg. Leviathan 5 piece gives us ~9% crit chance with effective 30-40% crit dmg after taking enemy crit dmg reduction into consideration. That means leviathan 5th piece in PvP gives us ~3% dmg increase. It's pretty common to see 15-25% dmg done by people in BG's to come from sheer venom (sometimes You can see even more). That means Sheer venom have potential to increase their damage output by 20%. That is almost 7 times more effective then leviathan and You can just use it on 1 bar. You still don't see strong dichotomy ?Edited by Juhasow on October 21, 2020 10:51PM3 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭That means Sheer venom have potential to increase their damage output by 20%. That is almost 7 times more effective then leviathan
Yeah so these sets are on the same continuum then, a set which increases your damage, Sheer Venom is just better. That's the part that isn't dichotomous. The dichotomy is that the 5 piece of damage proc sets doesn't scale with much of anything other than damage done / taken % and penetration, and you don't have to compromise as much in other areas to maximize these sets as you do to maximize a stat set. The dichotomy of "is a proc set" and "is not a proc set" isn't that important to balance, it seems to me to fundamentally be a matter of taste.
Let procs scale with stats, let them crit even, make them more conditional, all that, rather than nerf them back to irrelevance. Raise the top-ends of their damage, let a MagBlade in VD / Mech Acuity hit even harder, but commensurately make them even easier to find and kill, even if that means figuring out a way to make Red CP have a negative effect, or whatever.
You can't tell me with a straight face this isn't the best class balance BGs has ever seen, although Elsweyr was pretty good. I know it's in a roundabout way we've arrived at that, that sets are more meaningful than class skills and passives, but the overall point is proc sets can be used in an interesting and helpful way, they don't need to be altogether shunned to arrive at a better balance and more fun game.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭This means every single offensive investment you do reduces the effectiveness of your build as procs will still completely take care of your offence even when running a full tank build..
In general I agree with your post but this isn't completely true, mag procs hit harder in light armor, all of them hit harder with the Lover, etc. They do scale off a couple offensive stats. Please see the above post before this is taken as outright defense of everything about proc sets.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »That means Sheer venom have potential to increase their damage output by 20%. That is almost 7 times more effective then leviathan
Yeah so these sets are on the same continuum then, a set which increases your damage, Sheer Venom is just better. That's the part that isn't dichotomous. The dichotomy is that the 5 piece of damage proc sets doesn't scale with much of anything other than damage done / taken % and penetration, and you don't have to compromise as much in other areas to maximize these sets as you do to maximize a stat set. The dichotomy of "is a proc set" and "is not a proc set" isn't that important to balance, it seems to me to fundamentally be a matter of taste.
Let procs scale with stats, let them crit even, make them more conditional, all that, rather than nerf them back to irrelevance. Raise the top-ends of their damage, let a MagBlade in VD / Mech Acuity hit even harder, but commensurately make them even easier to find and kill, even if that means figuring out a way to make Red CP have a negative effect, or whatever.
You can't tell me with a straight face this isn't the best class balance BGs has ever seen, although Elsweyr was pretty good. I know it's in a roundabout way we've arrived at that, that sets are more meaningful than class skills and passives, but the overall point is proc sets can be used in an interesting and helpful way, they don't need to be altogether shunned to arrive at a better balance and more fun game.
Ive advocated for stat sets to be buffed to proc equivalent.
This will have a two pronged effect:
1. More set diversity and lessened pigeonholing
2. Decrease TTK - directly affecting the tank Meta
IMO lower TTK is better environment for PvP (ESP BGs), and with some new sets coming out, the tanks can easily run some insane damage.
The new arena staff + Zaan + Malacath on a swift wearing, snare and root using health build sounds insaneEdited by Waffennacht on October 22, 2020 12:49AM0 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »You can't tell me with a straight face this isn't the best class balance BGs has ever seen, although Elsweyr was pretty good. I know it's in a roundabout way we've arrived at that, that sets are more meaningful than class skills and passives, but the overall point is proc sets can be used in an interesting and helpful way, they don't need to be altogether shunned to arrive at a better balance and more fun game.
This isn't class balance, this is class diminishment. It makes things vastly less interesting.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”5 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »This isn't class balance, this is class diminishment. It makes things vastly less interesting.
C'mon man it's our time
Rollin on the ground, actin like a clown, it's never made me feel this close to the old PetSorcWaffennacht wrote: »Ive advocated for stat sets to be buffed to proc equivalent.
Yeah that's probably a much more practical solution in the near term. See how it shakes out. I agree I enjoy the low TTK, although playing a pure glass cannon StamDK in Cyro during the healing meta a few patches ago was fun for me.
Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭But yeah @MurderMostFoul you're right. It still is better balance though. I feel like a stats meta invariably reinforces class imbalance more than a proc meta. Refer to PVE composition, right? It's just a flip side of things. Of course I think most players want the best balance between everything possible - classes, sets, everything. Foods. I wish I had an appetite for more of these delicious Halloween foods besides Sugar SkullsXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Increasing damage output negatively affects non-tanks a lot more than it does tanks. If you're running a more "traditional" light armor build right now, many classes running stat sets can basically insta-gib you anytime their ultimate is ready. I'd really hate to see them delete people any faster than they do already, especially since block is so incredibly unreliable if you're not just holding it down constantly behind a 1h/shield.Waffennacht wrote: »Ive advocated for stat sets to be buffed to proc equivalent.
This will have a two pronged effect:
1. More set diversity and lessened pigeonholing
2. Decrease TTK - directly affecting the tank Meta
IMO lower TTK is better environment for PvP (ESP BGs), and with some new sets coming out, the tanks can easily run some insane damage.
The new arena staff + Zaan + Malacath on a swift wearing, snare and root using health build sounds insane0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Increasing damage output negatively affects non-tanks a lot more than it does tanks. If you're running a more "traditional" light armor build right now, many classes running stat sets can basically insta-gib you anytime their ultimate is ready. I'd really hate to see them delete people any faster than they do already, especially since block is so incredibly unreliable if you're not just holding it down constantly behind a 1h/shield.Waffennacht wrote: »Ive advocated for stat sets to be buffed to proc equivalent.
This will have a two pronged effect:
1. More set diversity and lessened pigeonholing
2. Decrease TTK - directly affecting the tank Meta
IMO lower TTK is better environment for PvP (ESP BGs), and with some new sets coming out, the tanks can easily run some insane damage.
The new arena staff + Zaan + Malacath on a swift wearing, snare and root using health build sounds insane
Light armor definetly feels bad rn, and with malacath theres little reason to run light on a lot of mag classes.
I definitely think damage shields need to reworked to be more generally useful to all Magicka classes as opposed to just sorcerers.
Maybe time for them to be put on the major/minor system.2 -
thisoneisdankSoul Shriveni dontWaffennacht wrote: »And seeing as thats it right? I mean no more nerfs?
Can safely gold out my replacement for sheer now right?
Knowing Zos, proc nerfs will come next patch, most sets will be completely worthless after that.
And of course they won't balance classes again, since they're doing sets.
Nerfed proc sets, aoe cooldowns, ally healing nerfs pushing people to self only heal morphs.... long live the tank meta!
well proc sets are what created the tank meta in the first place buddy
people died so easily against procs so they had to push more defence stats and higher hp
right now its so crazy cause people just play with 35-40k hp and use 2-3 procs sets with malacath
and can still kill people, cause of it you see now mag sorcs and stam nb with 26-30k hp
2 years ago they were 20-22k hp , top max hp you would see is 28k hp and now its the lowest you will see
(apart from pve players that just come to leach ap for tier 1 then you see low hp players)
now we have other proc meta cause zos want to sell greymoor for pvp players (malacath ring) ...2 -
J18696✭✭✭✭✭thisoneisdank wrote: »i dontWaffennacht wrote: »And seeing as thats it right? I mean no more nerfs?
Can safely gold out my replacement for sheer now right?
Knowing Zos, proc nerfs will come next patch, most sets will be completely worthless after that.
And of course they won't balance classes again, since they're doing sets.
Nerfed proc sets, aoe cooldowns, ally healing nerfs pushing people to self only heal morphs.... long live the tank meta!
well proc sets are what created the tank meta in the first place buddy
people died so easily against procs so they had to push more defence stats and higher hp
right now its so crazy cause people just play with 35-40k hp and use 2-3 procs sets with malacath
and can still kill people, cause of it you see now mag sorcs and stam nb with 26-30k hp
2 years ago they were 20-22k hp , top max hp you would see is 28k hp and now its the lowest you will see
(apart from pve players that just come to leach ap for tier 1 then you see low hp players)
now we have other proc meta cause zos want to sell greymoor for pvp players (malacath ring) ...
These tanks are also using procs because you dont actually need to have any dmg to deal dmg with procs hitting so hard i dont see why people find that so hard to understand XD im sure their are ways to make procs better maybe have them scale off player stats like everything else so you actually need damage to get damage out of them maybe make malacath not work with them not to sure but as they are dmg wise is to brain dead0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭thisoneisdank wrote: »i dontWaffennacht wrote: »And seeing as thats it right? I mean no more nerfs?
Can safely gold out my replacement for sheer now right?
Knowing Zos, proc nerfs will come next patch, most sets will be completely worthless after that.
And of course they won't balance classes again, since they're doing sets.
Nerfed proc sets, aoe cooldowns, ally healing nerfs pushing people to self only heal morphs.... long live the tank meta!
well proc sets are what created the tank meta in the first place buddy
people died so easily against procs so they had to push more defence stats and higher hp
right now its so crazy cause people just play with 35-40k hp and use 2-3 procs sets with malacath
and can still kill people, cause of it you see now mag sorcs and stam nb with 26-30k hp
2 years ago they were 20-22k hp , top max hp you would see is 28k hp and now its the lowest you will see
(apart from pve players that just come to leach ap for tier 1 then you see low hp players)
now we have other proc meta cause zos want to sell greymoor for pvp players (malacath ring) ...
These tanks are also using procs because you dont actually need to have any dmg to deal dmg with procs hitting so hard i dont see why people find that so hard to understand XD im sure their are ways to make procs better maybe have them scale off player stats like everything else so you actually need damage to get damage out of them maybe make malacath not work with them not to sure but as they are dmg wise is to brain dead
Crimson/Syvarra combo is popular on EU that even mag toons run it. Of course wheter you can call that a magicka toon at that point is another matter altogether:D
Ive tried Crimson briefly on my magplar with malacath. On average it was hitting for 4-4.5k, and thats with sharpened lightning staff giving me the only pen. Kinda bonkers.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You can just run Way of Fire instead of Sheer Venom
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/549176/updated-for-markarth-stamina-sorcerer-circuit-breaker#latest1 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Way of fire/Malacath paired with a single target weapon skill DOT -> consistent, controled proc pressure.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Some quick numbers from the videos:
With the Skill Enhancers
Match 1: 722k dmg in 7.5 minutes =96,266 dmg per minute
Match 2: 1.4 million dmg in 14.5 minutes = 96.5k dmg per minute
Without the Skill Enhancers
Match 1: 313k damage in 10 minutes = 31.3k dmg per minute
Simply explains the proc set meta.0 -
FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »That means Sheer venom have potential to increase their damage output by 20%. That is almost 7 times more effective then leviathan
Yeah so these sets are on the same continuum then, a set which increases your damage, Sheer Venom is just better. That's the part that isn't dichotomous. The dichotomy is that the 5 piece of damage proc sets doesn't scale with much of anything other than damage done / taken % and penetration, and you don't have to compromise as much in other areas to maximize these sets as you do to maximize a stat set. The dichotomy of "is a proc set" and "is not a proc set" isn't that important to balance, it seems to me to fundamentally be a matter of taste.
Let procs scale with stats, let them crit even, make them more conditional, all that, rather than nerf them back to irrelevance. Raise the top-ends of their damage, let a MagBlade in VD / Mech Acuity hit even harder, but commensurately make them even easier to find and kill, even if that means figuring out a way to make Red CP have a negative effect, or whatever.
You can't tell me with a straight face this isn't the best class balance BGs has ever seen, although Elsweyr was pretty good. I know it's in a roundabout way we've arrived at that, that sets are more meaningful than class skills and passives, but the overall point is proc sets can be used in an interesting and helpful way, they don't need to be altogether shunned to arrive at a better balance and more fun game.
Ive advocated for stat sets to be buffed to proc equivalent.
This will have a two pronged effect:
1. More set diversity and lessened pigeonholing
2. Decrease TTK - directly affecting the tank Meta
IMO lower TTK is better environment for PvP (ESP BGs), and with some new sets coming out, the tanks can easily run some insane damage.
The new arena staff + Zaan + Malacath on a swift wearing, snare and root using health build sounds insane
I agree with this. Problem is if they actually buffed stat based sets to be in line players would lose their minds at the amount of spell dmg and pen that would be given.1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with this. Problem is if they actually buffed stat based sets to be in line players would lose their minds at the amount of spell dmg and pen that would be given.
Would buffing stat sets throw PvE DD balance out of whack?
Adding co-efficients to procs is probably a massive undertaking, but can we make some guesses at what that could look like in a balanced state?
If VMA 2h and Unleashed Terror had the exact same co-efficient as Stampede... better or worse than the current state of these OP procs?
Edited by Urzigurumash on October 23, 2020 10:58PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »It isn't diverse😂 there are a limited amount of sets people are using. All activated from one attack. If they stopped the effectiveness of stacking proc sets there would be more diversity. Then yes using a proc set in a build could create diversity, at the moment everyone is just stacking them because they are a better alternative then using skills.
Yes I absolutely agree. See my above post. I think adding co-efficients to procs is the best solution from the point of view of overall balance. Maybe not the most practical solution however.
Edit: However there are some outlier proc sets which already have some sort of scaling system, without a co-efficient, and for which the underlying co-efficient of the activating skill already makes a pretty big difference whether the proc is useful on a high offensive stat vs low offensive stat build - in my experience.
Edited by Urzigurumash on October 23, 2020 11:23PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Buffing the stat sets shouldn't hamper PvE
Should actually help newer players because the static stat sets arent used in PvE
The trial gear, which is best for PvE are sets like Relequen are used and not Spriggan/Shacklebreaker etc
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭True. I wonder how PvE players would feel about some scaling on Relequen, besides damage done / penetration.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
hexentb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Proc sets definitely shouldn't be nerfed. Pvp is finally interesting and fun again. It was getting so boring when everyone was using the same old strategies every time. Now we're actually being forced to think things through in pvp and I love and welcome the challenge.0
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hexentb16_ESO wrote: »Proc sets definitely shouldn't be nerfed. Pvp is finally interesting and fun again. It was getting so boring when everyone was using the same old strategies every time. Now we're actually being forced to think things through in pvp and I love and welcome the challenge.
There is absolutely no thought process involved in current pvp.
See an enemy hit them with La+1 skill all your procs go off, wait for enemy to die while doing the same stuff you always did but with much more damage than before.
This gets reduced to only using 1 skill when you're zerging someone.
Hit poison injection sheer venom + syvarras proc, wait for your group to do the same ---> earn free AP repeat10 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭My impression: What @hexentb16_ESO describes can be accurate if you get into a BG with nobody running a target-attached DOT proc. What @BohnT2 describes is any situation where people are running these sets.
Can we find any skill co-efficient which could be slapped on these target-attached DOT proc sets which would balance them? Noxious Breath's DOT for Syvarra's Scales, Venomous Claw's for Sheer Venom, as I said above Stampede's for Unleashed Terror, etc. These are just random guesses, I haven't done any math to see how a hypothetical build would come out.
I would say start with this most OP category of damage procs, then look at other categories: ground-attached, direct damage, etc.
If anybody has the will to tinker, here are the numbers for skill co-efficients:
https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php
If anybody has any blanket refutation of this, and believes giving procs a co-efficient is a bad idea and won't work out, by all means please explain.
Edited by Urzigurumash on October 25, 2020 12:49AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1