Nerfing single proc set like Sheer Venom is a mistake becouse changes should be much deeper

Nordic__Knights

the problem here aint x set or y set its being able to put x and y together zos needs to make it so there is an GCD on procs and an ordering system to when they do proc so that no two damage procs can hit together , also with this system procs could be used more skillful not just freely

Wolfpaw

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Step out of CP-Enabled Cyrodiil for a bit and you'll see why Sheer Venom is getting nerfed. It's not the only thing that needs to be toned down, but it's well past time for it to take a hit. Or maybe it would be better to start with making the Malacath Ring not affect procs; either way, something definitely needs to be done.

That unfortunately is the problem of adding stuff in a game that really wasn't intended in the original design.

Just a mess.

No bg's and housing should have never been introduced imo.

Merforum

Swordancer wrote: »

LOL this is possibly the worst example you could show. Look at this video one more time. Look how many tactics this guy is doing to get his results. This is what this game is suppose to look like. You are using your brain and skill to win. This is pure example of build that might work against tanky builds that you don't want to be too close to becuse they can drain you and heal themeselfs. This also might look nice, but ask him to repeat it live with other pro group.

If you take that set away, whats going to happen is that such tactics will work the same way just instead of sheer venom you will use Deadly Strike or Pillar of Nirn or some other. Check in Combat Metrics how much of damage your set can do with the same bars, then compare it to spamming leeching poison and other skills. This is just bonus for better draining results. Higher overtime damage. This guy can be easly killed with proper counter build and right skill bar without any problem becouse can't stand for too long in direct combat against high penetration critical damage. He have to go away to get back resources so he can strike again. This is pure example gg and skill.

This video do not even show the true potential of Sheer Venom which comes with group execute ability like whirling blades and you are talking you know this set and it's OP. It looks like it is OP to you. You get killed with it couple times and Oh, no! This is so OP.

I respect your opinion. Don't doubt it. I belive you might have different expirience than me, maybe you actually know something I don't but I do not have such problems with the guys using this set and Im using it in ranged combat or to inject posion to entire group to help other guys to kill zergs quicker. If you have build ready to any situation then you are much better than others.

Nerfing this set is just pointless becouse Sheer Venom doesn't make you goodlike, it doesn't give you super DPS comparing to other sets. It is just set like many other and thats it. Nerf is just fulfilling the whims of complaining people becouse they die and can't or won't upgrade thier builds or addapt them to current combat by using some addon. Sets are popular becouse some videos.

People think that this set is so OP becouse some guy on video killed 20 people with it in some battleground. It's becoming popular, people starts complain it get nerfed. Some guy is publishing another video, Im using Deadly strike now, look I killed 20 people with it. It is becoming popular, it gets nerfed.

Same story all these years. I am just so tired with this nonsense. xD

FrankonPC wrote: »

Swordancer wrote: »

Battlegrounds are more role based. This is not good example. In Cyro there is a wild west. You can get small group and use mechanics but large zerg group will kill you anyway. Same tactics works in one battle, doeasn't work in some other. Thats why having build for any situation is important in Cyro. Battlegrounds are just battlegrounds. Meet good opposing team and you are done with any build. Cyro is more based on developed probability. You know what kind of builds are most popular and you adapt or play only specific tactics to get best results. I

t's a choice between a universal build and a tactical one. Nerfing sets that anyone can use is just pointless when there are many others and there will be more of them.

I'm sorry I didn't see this before I commented. I was playing deathmatch which has the same objective as open world pvp. If i posted an open world cyrodiil build you'd just counter with some argument that I am playing bad players, it won't work vs zergs, etc etc.

Sheer venom and proc sets like it are much, much stronger than any stat based counterpart currently. They are so strong that I am able to push out as much dmg using just poison injection + procs as I would a pretty solid aoe dmg build. I can do this with one skill.

There is currently no stat based build where I could come close to this type of damage output. If I ran a build that was running new moon acolyte, I could replace that set with briarheart, clever alchemist, stuhn, titanborn, spriggans etc and they would be relatively close in overall damage output. Some with more burst, some with less but more healing etc. These sets are close on the balance scale. Sheer venom is infinitely better than all of them.

No matter how hard you can try you won't get the same results every time. In many battles you have to switch your build to get better results. If you are using just one with some character then it might be hard to win every single time. If you can't handle tank you switch to such build like guy from video for high ranged damage, some posion injection with execute or some other counter tank build and you are ok. Nerfing this set might take some part of that from you. Nerfs of sets doesn't usually works. It makes the game more confusing and tiring.

I really respect your opinion but i still think it leads us nowhere.

Totally agree with you. I stopped using sheer venom because it's not that powerful, and just put on Torug pact bow with frost enchant (watch next they'll say enchantments are OP because I stacked infused and torug). BTW that would actually make sense if their argument was correct (That the problem is stacking). Or is it just stacking procs, but not stacking stam or stacking weapon damage or stacking crit, wth.

Anyway with Torug I got my first 5000+ score in BG a few weeks ago. And I'm still not good. But if you stay back with a bow and pick off people with lowest health or just spam LA and bow skills you will always get this much damage. And if you are really good at running around and hiding like that dude, you can get that kind of score on any bow build. I actually saw some vids of that guy many weeks ago, go back and check his youtube channel, he talks like that even when he is trying to be serious. One vid he is explaining how everyone in IC sucks and that is why his werewolf build can take on 12 people. He wouldn't tell anyone the build, don't know why.

Now I am literally using 3 defensive/sustain sets because doing objectives in BG is more important than just killing people but even with defensive stuff if I am up high or floating around outside the pile up with bad players I get the same scores. The thing that is OP in these situations is how easy stealth bow builds are to just steal everyone's kills. Literally it is like shooting fish in a barrel. These dudes use these EXACT same tactic no matter what equipment they wear. Ranged staff can do similar but without stealth you'll eventually get jacked.

BTW I switched from sword and board to 2hander and my close range kills have gone through the roof. Executioner is more powerful than any proc set, and almost as easy to use just jump on a guy with low health and clobber him one time. I don't know why we both posting, guess just to pose different point of view than same complaints over and over.

FrankonPC

Merforum wrote: »

Totally agree with you. I stopped using sheer venom because it's not that powerful, and just put on Torug pact bow with frost enchant (watch next they'll say enchantments are OP because I stacked infused and torug). BTW that would actually make sense if their argument was correct (That the problem is stacking). Or is it just stacking procs, but not stacking stam or stacking weapon damage or stacking crit, wth.

The amount of weapon damage, crit and stam that you *can* stack currently with sets does not give you close to the same value of stacking procs with the current proc conditions. Sheer venom and a vast array of other proc sets like it are just so much better than other sets in the game right now that it's not better as a damage dealer to run other things. That's imbalance.

Anyway with Torug I got my first 5000+ score in BG a few weeks ago

Congratulations! It's not always easy to get 5k in battlegrounds. I got it using light attacks and poison injection with sheer venom on my first bg using the build. So something that has taken you(and many others) a while to do, I was able to do with sheer venom and one skill. You still don't think it's that powerful?

But if you stay back with a bow and pick off people with lowest health or just spam LA and bow skills you will always get this much damage.

Seriously, please do what I did. Put on new moon and another stat based set like clever alchemist. Go into bgs and hit ONLY light attacks and poison inject. Tell me how much damage you get.

One vid he is explaining how everyone in IC sucks and that is why his werewolf build can take on 12 people. He wouldn't tell anyone the build, don't know why.

This is not true. I streamed and shared the build on twitch. I talk and share the build in my discord, but I won't do a build video. There's a big difference between not talking about a build and not providing a build video with in depth detail on how to use a health based heal to make an extremely annoying and oppressive x v 1 build.

the video you are mentioning is talking about where players make mistakes. What I did in that video wasn't special, a lot of players could do it because the people I fought were ill equipped to fight a moving target.

Now I am literally using 3 defensive/sustain sets because doing objectives in BG is more important than just killing people but even with defensive stuff if I am up high or floating around outside the pile up with bad players I get the same scores.

This was team deathmatch. The objective IS to kill people and proc sets in battlegrounds are the best for completing this objective.

The thing that is OP in these situations is how easy stealth bow builds are to just steal everyone's kills. Literally it is like shooting fish in a barrel. These dudes use these EXACT same tactic no matter what equipment they wear. Ranged staff can do similar but without stealth you'll eventually get jacked.

There's no denying the bow toolkit is quite powerful containing arguably the current most broken skill in the game(snipe). I wasn't using snipe though. I was using an underwhelming dot that manages to proc 3 different sets at the same time and I got 1.4 million damage doing it.

Merforum

FrankonPC wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Totally agree with you. I stopped using sheer venom because it's not that powerful, and just put on Torug pact bow with frost enchant (watch next they'll say enchantments are OP because I stacked infused and torug). BTW that would actually make sense if their argument was correct (That the problem is stacking). Or is it just stacking procs, but not stacking stam or stacking weapon damage or stacking crit, wth.

The amount of weapon damage, crit and stam that you *can* stack currently with sets does not give you close to the same value of

But you have been playing PVP for a long time, I only started PVP several weeks ago, that's why it took that long. I did get 4000 pnts with Sheer Venom before that but it was easier to get 5000 with Torugs. This is similar to the test you did. With Torug/engine guardian/alessian I got 4-5K several times, but it is situational. When there are 6-8 players fighting each other in a group and I'm above or keeping distant and just hitting them over and over with la/PsnInj and if they get close magnum shot, go invis, sneak around and start peppering again. If anything the LA weave is doing way more damage than sheer venom.

Now if there are 2 good players on either or both of the teams they will track me down and kill me over and over. Unless I have a good player on my team who is helping me. Maybe you are good enough to avoid getting killed by 2 good players, so you can get high score most of the time. Also when there are good players they steal most of my kills too. But when they aren't that good I steal their kills. The BOW plus staying at range stealing low health target kills IS what accounts for most of the point, STYLE not Sets.

I bet you can wear just about any sets and do the same thing with the same technique and similar level of opponents. Here's another test for you, try using the same setup but instead of bow using 2hand and spamming Executioner. Should be way more damage that way but would that play style allow you to get high score.

I already stopped using those sets so I don't care either way but I don't agree that they are OP. And don't understand how stacking permanent damage is less powerful than a conditional damage with cooldown and purgable. Seems like this is a case of a handful of people that want everyone to adopt their play style so they can dominate them, and anything that is different or competitive with it must be Nerfed.

Urzigurumash

JinxxND wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Sheer venom wasn´t nerfed enough if you ask me. Effortless damage procs should be deleted from the game, or have hard proc conditions.

You equip Leviathan, your Poison Injections are more likely to proc Critical Damage. You equip Sheer Venom, instead it applies an additional DOT. I personally don't see such a strict dichotomy between effortful damage and effortless damage. It's a complicated game with many different things going on.

[Quoted post was removed]

Math is a good skill, so is reading. Leviathan was a random example, I was discussing whether there's an ontological difference between stat and proc sets as it relates to "effortless" damage. Whether any random proc set is stronger than any random stat set was completely irrelevant.

Swordancer

Madhatten512 wrote: »

Swordancer wrote: »

Don't get me wrong. I like to play as tank, sometimes I like even troll others with such build but we are too powerfull. Lately you nerfed one of the most usless sets, red mountain. You doing that becouse of performance. You knew that this set is doing a lot of calculations per each hit, even aoe one so you nerfed it to be more usless just to get your performance better. Now you are doing the same with sheer venom. You are not trying to balance this game but just trying get little more performance and we are not blind and stupid we can see what is the true reason. 10k damage overs 6 seconds when in this time I can heal myself for 20k, oh what a great problem.

Nerfing damage sets is pointless. We have large problems with too tanky builds. Leeching poision, Crimson Twilight, Earthgore and many others. Playing as tank is the only way to play fair right now with such lags. Sheer Venom is not OP set at all and yet you are nerfing it so tanky sets could become more popular than ever. This set is good to slowly drain health bars but let be honest, it is not OP set at all. This set is suppose to drain health, that is idea behind it and we can infect entire group and this is the true reason why you are nerfing it. If you nerf it you will just make tanks harder to kill and that is huge problem right now.

Im playing trolly tank myself. Draining my health bar is a nightmare and yet I am able to kill Sheer Venom users and almost all pure damage builds, not all builds but yet it is not so hard. By nerfing damage sets right now you will make this game much worse, less balanced. The damage/healing gap between healing sets and damage sets is too low.

In my opinion healing sets should make you harder to kill, pure damage sets should make you a better killer but lets be honest. For now combat with tanky guys like me takes too much time. We can jump around, be almost killed just to get huge healing buff and do it again. Simetimes I can troll people for 20 minutes just to get bored or killed when there is too much of them coming or somone got good build against me. Yeah there are clever damage builds that knows how to handle tank by draining his health and resources.

Rememeber that nerfing damage makes tanks stronger, tanks causing combat to take too much time. When the battle is too long there are performance issues. If you do not belive me just look at you tube when tank can troll 10 ppl killing one by one becouse this is how balance looks like right now.

Sheer Venom is crutch. Proc sets are overperforming. Calling Sheer Venom a damage set without calling it what it really is a free damage set is a joke.. I agree that damage sets need a buff, but proc sets need nerfed. In fact they need completely reworked so they don't stack on top of each other. Sets like Fury, New moon, Titanborn stat based sets that add weapon damage have been nerfed, but all these proc sets buffed to the moon. Its made the game beyond a joke. Anyone want a good laugh go check out Isth3reno1else's last two youtube videos where he does close to a mill damage in bgs using 1 damage skill and a bunch of procs.. Its hilarious, but also so sad to see what the combat in this game has become.

Then we must nerf all free healing, free shielding sets, free resource sets xD What the hell are you talking about? Do you realize that this is all the same thing? It is meant to give you advantage over some other sets and builds. Sheer Venom doesn't make you OP. You can be OP to losers with it only.

Now nerf one "free damage set". Then what about Leeching Plate? What about Crimson? What about Earthgore? This sets heals you for free, do damage, makes you immortal. You can handle WB without even doing anything, all you need is just standng. You can handle most of the players without quite much effort. Now nerf "free damage set" without nerfing these and what we got? Godlike fest.

Do you realize what im trying to say all this time? Nerfing one stupid set is not the solution when we got all the others. It's a problem, it's another balance problem.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Swordancer wrote: »

LOL this is possibly the worst example you could show. Look at this video one more time. Look how many tactics this guy is doing to get his results. This is what this game is suppose to look like. You are using your brain and skill to win. This is pure example of build that might work against tanky builds that you don't want to be too close to becuse they can drain you and heal themeselfs. This also might look nice, but ask him to repeat it live with other pro group.

Please tell me you're joking...

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Then we must nerf all free healing, free shielding sets, free resource sets xD What the hell are you talking about? Do you realize that this is all the same thing? It is meant to give you advantage over some other sets and builds. Sheer Venom doesn't make you OP. You can be OP to losers with it only.

Now nerf one "free damage set". Then what about Leeching Plate? What about Crimson? What about Earthgore? This sets heals you for free, do damage, makes you immortal. You can handle WB without even doing anything, all you need is just standng. You can handle most of the players without quite much effort. Now nerf "free damage set" without nerfing these and what we got? Godlike fest.

Do you realize what im trying to say all this time? Nerfing one stupid set is not the solution when we got all the others. It's a problem, it's another balance problem.

Great points, I also have been saying a long time. I keep hearing about 'FREE damage' or 'lazy players' but the Proc sets they are complaining about have way more 'requirements' than every other set they like (special triggers/PROC, some percent chance, DOT changed from burst, cooldown). A lot of Stat/Damage sets give you permanent stats/damage WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.

And they conveniently forget about how stat/damage/crit give FREE damage to many different skills and attacks. If you add up all that extra FREE damage it is massively more FREE damage than any of the Proc sets. And so called 'lazy or bad' players mostly are spamming the skills that cause the proc because the game is so glitchy that you literally have to spam (poison injection for instance to make sure it even procs, if you do it just once it might not work). I have to hit my Ult like 3 time before it goes off in BG, but in PVE dungeon that never happens.

If anything is OP it is Crit damage and Executes. They gave FREE crit resist to address this but it would be nice to test just removing crit damage from PVP and see how that works. And maybe have execute max at 100% extra FREE damage. 400% is insane FREE damage, no cooldown.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Urzigurumash wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Sheer venom wasn´t nerfed enough if you ask me. Effortless damage procs should be deleted from the game, or have hard proc conditions.

You equip Leviathan, your Poison Injections are more likely to proc Critical Damage. You equip Sheer Venom, instead it applies an additional DOT. I personally don't see such a strict dichotomy between effortful damage and effortless damage. It's a complicated game with many different things going on.

[Quoted post was removed]

Math is a good skill, so is reading. Leviathan was a random example, I was discussing whether there's an ontological difference between stat and proc sets as it relates to "effortless" damage. Whether any random proc set is stronger than any random stat set was completely irrelevant.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Maybe my brain is having a hard time with your big words. Are you trying to ask if there is a clear distinction damage wise between a proc set applying an additional dot vs a stat set giving you a flat damage increase? It's defiantly a complicated question. I'll quote someone else from this thread because I think they compare stat based sets to a proc set nicely.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Spriggans vs Sheer in no CP:

the penetration of Spriggans will allow my attacks to deal 5.24% more damage to my opponent.

Currently Sheer gives 8766/6 dmg per sec minimum, or 1461 per sec; after BS 780.5

For Spriggans to increase the damage on my target by 780.5 real damage, I need to be dealing 29,790 damage per sec (tootltip) or 14,895 after BS...

Another way to look at it is:

The increase of damage from 473 Wpn damage increase will buff my damage from a specific attack by 539 dmg or 8%. Sheer in its current form increases the damage during the same GCD by 780.5 or 12%.

Essentially Sheer is giving a buff value of like approximately 630? And that can potentially double; with no cost.

Unfortunately though, sheer is far from an outlier as a proc set. A lot provides numbers similar to this. And many are not limited to a single target per duration

@Merforum this is what free damage is. So everything you said above is 100% wrong. Proc sets take 0 skill and they are free. Proc sets activate for free. No, the recourses used on the skill that activates the proc does not count. They are two different skills. They do not share the Global Cooldown like other skills, which means when you use a skill, the proc is activated for FREE. No wasted GCD, no wasted resource. It's literally free damage/pressure.

To be honest I really can't tell if the people defending procs are trolling or not. If they are, then bravo to them.

Urzigurumash

@FangOfTheTwoMoons

Yeah, you put on a set, you get damage. My comment wasn't about whether various stat and proc sets need further adjustment to be balanced, just that I don't understand the sentiment that no proc sets should exist. Does this sentiment exist on the PvE side? Are trials teams which use Relequen's held in contempt? Proc sets which do damage outside of the GCD and which require no condition to proc should be adjusted to do less damage than those which proc off a skill. However many of the procs which damage outside of the GCD have some other limiting factor - a cooldown, they can be dodged, etc., and so that should be considered in their tooltips.

Sheer Venom was a clear standout among proc sets, it was also bugged and proccing Poisoned too much, so now it's been adjusted, and we all know Spriggan's/Spinner's need a buff. Absolutely as things stand right now all flat Weapon/Spell Damage sets need a buff, in my opinion.

The clear intent in this recent large revision of sets was to make the most amount of sets as relevant as possible in some capacity. There was nothing interesting about every class, mag or stam, wearing Balorgh + NMA + Potatoes backbar, it didn't encourage players to test things out, it didn't encourage PvP players to group up to farm obscure dungeons, etc., things which are probably healthy for the overall economy of the game, and which give players a sense of discovery and reward when some trick build they came up with actually works.

Now as for whether the Balorgh / NMA / Potatoes meta allowed for easier class/skill balancing, that's a different matter. I think some of us just find a sort of banal sanctimony in the idea that "putting a proc set on means you're a bad player", we are not trolling.

Of course I would agree that we should find the uppermost limits of performance in flat stat sets, to encourage players learning timing, combos, sustain, etc. Of course, this would also include using Malacath's, since Crits are procs.

Swordancer

@FangOfTheTwoMoons and what would you do when they going to nerf it?

Will you stop crying becouse someone poisoned you to death? xD What about all other sets, what about all free healing, free resource, other free damage sets? By nerfing one set you need to do proper nerf to many others. Devs are unable to predict how it is going to impact PvP. Sheer Venom will be replaced for drain builds with something else. You will still be crying when poisoned or bleeded to death. Users of this build will be pissed becouse it require to farm some other trash. ZoS will be happy becouse grinding people are playing people. Tanky trolls like me are going to be harder to drain by nightblades. Godlikefest until they replace thier ranged drain builds with other ranged drain builds. Poison injectors are old like this game.

Until ZoS decide to do massive rebalance any singular nerf is just bringing more chaos to the game. Causing us to waste more of our time and at the end result is the opposite becouse we are starting to use better sets that no one showed in some video during zerg butcherfest.

Urzigurumash

Kidding about the Malacath thing, but I hope you get my overall point, proc sets make the game more interesting. That's really all there is to it, it's a roleplaying game, so there should be cool items you have to search out. Not just find a 9 trait crafter, run March of Sacrifices, hit Vlastarus, you're set forever with any class, at least as far as being competitive in PvP is concerned.

I think we should assume most players want as much diversity in classes and playstyles they encounter in PvP as possible, to keep things interesting and keep us experimenting as well as practicing our skills. More diversity in sets should result in more diversity of playstyles, no?

relentless_turnip

Merforum wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Totally agree with you. I stopped using sheer venom because it's not that powerful, and just put on Torug pact bow with frost enchant (watch next they'll say enchantments are OP because I stacked infused and torug). BTW that would actually make sense if their argument was correct (That the problem is stacking). Or is it just stacking procs, but not stacking stam or stacking weapon damage or stacking crit, wth.

The amount of weapon damage, crit and stam that you *can* stack currently with sets does not give you close to the same value of

But you have been playing PVP for a long time, I only started PVP several weeks ago, that's why it took that long. I did get 4000 pnts with Sheer Venom before that but it was easier to get 5000 with Torugs. This is similar to the test you did. With Torug/engine guardian/alessian I got 4-5K several times, but it is situational. When there are 6-8 players fighting each other in a group and I'm above or keeping distant and just hitting them over and over with la/PsnInj and if they get close magnum shot, go invis, sneak around and start peppering again. If anything the LA weave is doing way more damage than sheer venom.

Now if there are 2 good players on either or both of the teams they will track me down and kill me over and over. Unless I have a good player on my team who is helping me. Maybe you are good enough to avoid getting killed by 2 good players, so you can get high score most of the time. Also when there are good players they steal most of my kills too. But when they aren't that good I steal their kills. The BOW plus staying at range stealing low health target kills IS what accounts for most of the point, STYLE not Sets.

I bet you can wear just about any sets and do the same thing with the same technique and similar level of opponents. Here's another test for you, try using the same setup but instead of bow using 2hand and spamming Executioner. Should be way more damage that way but would that play style allow you to get high score.

I already stopped using those sets so I don't care either way but I don't agree that they are OP. And don't understand how stacking permanent damage is less powerful than a conditional damage with cooldown and purgable. Seems like this is a case of a handful of people that want everyone to adopt their play style so they can dominate them, and anything that is different or competitive with it must be Nerfed.

You don't understand they are op because by your own admission you only started PvP a few weeks a go. You are also in low MMR BG as a result of only playing PvP a few weeks, again this makes your perspective questionable imo.

relentless_turnip

Swordancer wrote: »

@FangOfTheTwoMoons and what would you do when they going to nerf it?

Will you stop crying becouse someone poisoned you to death? xD What about all other sets, what about all free healing, free resource, other free damage sets? By nerfing one set you need to do proper nerf to many others. Devs are unable to predict how it is going to impact PvP. Sheer Venom will be replaced for drain builds with something else. You will still be crying when poisoned or bleeded to death. Users of this build will be pissed becouse it require to farm some other trash. ZoS will be happy becouse grinding people are playing people. Tanky trolls like me are going to be harder to drain by nightblades. Godlikefest until they replace thier ranged drain builds with other ranged drain builds. Poison injectors are old like this game.

Until ZoS decide to do massive rebalance any singular nerf is just bringing more chaos to the game. Causing us to waste more of our time and at the end result is the opposite becouse we are starting to use better sets that no one showed in some video during zerg butcherfest.

Yes reducing free damage, free healing etc... Is what is being suggested. My opinion stop them being able to stack so effectively and job done.

Relequen still requires the use of a rotation to be effective... A set that increases your stats under a condition is different to 3 sets that do all of your damage for you for light attacking. Surely you understand this? I put on briar heart and I still need to use an offensive rotation(i.e more than one skill) for it to be effective. Compared to wearing sheer venom and smite and pressing poison injection. The latter does far more damage...

relentless_turnip

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Kidding about the Malacath thing, but I hope you get my overall point, proc sets make the game more interesting. That's really all there is to it, it's a roleplaying game, so there should be cool items you have to search out. Not just find a 9 trait crafter, run March of Sacrifices, hit Vlastarus, you're set forever with any class, at least as far as being competitive in PvP is concerned.

I think we should assume most players want as much diversity in classes and playstyles they encounter in PvP as possible, to keep things interesting and keep us experimenting as well as practicing our skills. More diversity in sets should result in more diversity of playstyles, no?

It isn't diverse😂 there are a limited amount of sets people are using. All activated from one attack. If they stopped the effectiveness of stacking proc sets there would be more diversity. Then yes using a proc set in a build could create diversity, at the moment everyone is just stacking them because they are a better alternative then using skills.

Firstmep

Okay to summarize:

The OP already admitted to only playing cp cyro.

Not sure he understands why these sets are such a problem then.

In no cp, people have significantly lower healing than in cp.

You throw in bgs, where you dont get a free 25% extra healing from the pvp passive for being near an objective, and you end up with builds that have 1-1.2k vigor ticks. Suddenly that sheer venom and venomous smite deals as much if not more damage than your low heals, and thats just from 1 player. In bgs you can expect to have pretty much most people running these dot procs, and suddenly if you cant get rid of the dots you wont be able to heal up.
I have had times when i had vigor rolling and spamming dark deal on stamsorc for 10 seconds straight and i still couldnt get back to full hp.

In cp pvp my stamplar can easily rock 3k vigor ticks, have more resource to work with etc. These sets are of course not as much of an issue there.

But in no cp theyre making the gameplay very unenjoyable.

And to be fair procsets arent a new thing for non cp, but between the gross overbuffing and adding certain sets, and completely unnecessary healing nerf(for no cp), made them just too strong.
Sets like sheer venom give you more damage on your poison inject(by far), than adding another 2k weapon damage to your build.

Swordancer

Firstmep wrote: »

Okay to summarize:

The OP already admitted to only playing cp cyro.

Not sure he understands why these sets are such a problem then.

In no cp, people have significantly lower healing than in cp.

You throw in bgs, where you dont get a free 25% extra healing from the pvp passive for being near an objective, and you end up with builds that have 1-1.2k vigor ticks. Suddenly that sheer venom and venomous smite deals as much if not more damage than your low heals, and thats just from 1 player. In bgs you can expect to have pretty much most people running these dot procs, and suddenly if you cant get rid of the dots you wont be able to heal up.
I have had times when i had vigor rolling and spamming dark deal on stamsorc for 10 seconds straight and i still couldnt get back to full hp.

In cp pvp my stamplar can easily rock 3k vigor ticks, have more resource to work with etc. These sets are of course not as much of an issue there.

But in no cp theyre making the gameplay very unenjoyable.

And to be fair procsets arent a new thing for non cp, but between the gross overbuffing and adding certain sets, and completely unnecessary healing nerf(for no cp), made them just too strong.
Sets like sheer venom give you more damage on your poison inject(by far), than adding another 2k weapon damage to your build.

To be clear I almost not using sheer venom at all becouse I got better results with other builds, I prefer tanky one. Sheer Venom users is a fart, easy target. When I see poison fart on me I know this guy is goint to die when I sneak to him. Thats it. Just like that, another farting medium armor user that can stay and die or walk away and try to kill me on distance or by suprise. All I got to do is to sneak to him again, and try one more time.

What is annoying is fighting for 20 minutes with one guy until he make mistake and Im not talking about nightblades.

Firstmep

Swordancer wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Okay to summarize:

The OP already admitted to only playing cp cyro.

Not sure he understands why these sets are such a problem then.

In no cp, people have significantly lower healing than in cp.

You throw in bgs, where you dont get a free 25% extra healing from the pvp passive for being near an objective, and you end up with builds that have 1-1.2k vigor ticks. Suddenly that sheer venom and venomous smite deals as much if not more damage than your low heals, and thats just from 1 player. In bgs you can expect to have pretty much most people running these dot procs, and suddenly if you cant get rid of the dots you wont be able to heal up.
I have had times when i had vigor rolling and spamming dark deal on stamsorc for 10 seconds straight and i still couldnt get back to full hp.

In cp pvp my stamplar can easily rock 3k vigor ticks, have more resource to work with etc. These sets are of course not as much of an issue there.

But in no cp theyre making the gameplay very unenjoyable.

And to be fair procsets arent a new thing for non cp, but between the gross overbuffing and adding certain sets, and completely unnecessary healing nerf(for no cp), made them just too strong.
Sets like sheer venom give you more damage on your poison inject(by far), than adding another 2k weapon damage to your build.

To be clear I almost not using sheer venom at all becouse I got better results with other builds, I prefer tanky one. Sheer Venom users is a fart, easy target. When I see poison fart on me I know this guy is goint to die when I sneak to him. Thats it. Just like that, another farting medium armor user that can stay and die or walk away and try to kill me on distance or by suprise. All I got to do is to sneak to him again, and try one more time.

What is annoying is fighting for 20 minutes with one guy until he make mistake and Im not talking about nightblades.

Oh wait you are playing a nightblade? KEKW

You realise that shadowy disguise supresses all dots right? SO you dont take damage from them.

Come on dude you are making this way too easy XD

Swordancer

You don't need to be nightblade to sneak you know. xDDDD Most powerfull tanks are necro and dk in my opinion, Try one, slot the right potion. Try it yourself. Oh and use underrated purge if you have problems with some poison folk. People do not understand that thier builds might suck against others and they have to switch. Always few builds on each class to be ready.

DK btw. DK but yest sometimes nightblade too.

Swordancer

Firstmep wrote: »

Swordancer wrote: »

You don't need to be nightblade to sneak you know. xDDDD Most powerfull tanks are necro and dk in my opinion, Try one, slot the right potion. Try it yourself. Oh and use underrated purge if you have problems with some poison folk. People do not understand that thier builds might suck against others and they have to switch. Always few builds on each class to be ready.

DK btw. DK but yest sometimes nightblade too.

[Quoted post was removed]

Looks like you are trying to provoke me. It's not gonna happen my friend. I need to end this discussion because I can see that it doesn't lead to anything. Play your style and be happy.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@FangOfTheTwoMoons

Yeah, you put on a set, you get damage. My comment wasn't about whether various stat and proc sets need further adjustment to be balanced, just that I don't understand the sentiment that no proc sets should exist. Does this sentiment exist on the PvE side? Are trials teams which use Relequen's held in contempt?

The problem doesn't exist in PVE because it simply cannot. It's just impossible. PVE shouldn't be brought up at all in this context. The problem occurs when players use these sets against one another. Optimizing your DPS with a proc set in PVE hurts no one and takes no skill away from that part of the game. Your rotation will always be the same weather you're wearing Rele or not, and you will always have to follow mechanics. PVP has much more complexity, the dynamic changes completely against another human.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@FangOfTheTwoMoons

Proc sets which do damage outside of the GCD and which require no condition to proc should be adjusted to do less damage than those which proc off a skill. However many of the procs which damage outside of the GCD have some other limiting factor - a cooldown, they can be dodged, etc., and so that should be considered in their tooltips.

If they do not nerf Procs that activate off skills, then they need to make a downside for them. As it stands, with set combos like Unleashed Terror, Maelstrom 2H, and sheer venom (could really be any other proc set) you place 5 Dots on your opponent, maybe even 7 if you're using a 2H Axe and the bleed procs alongside some double dot poisons. I can't argue that some do have cooldowns but that hardly is much of a downside. Do you suggest everyone run purge to take care of them?

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@FangOfTheTwoMoons

Now as for whether the Balorgh / NMA / Potatoes meta allowed for easier class/skill balancing, that's a different matter. I think some of us just find a sort of banal sanctimony in the idea that "putting a proc set on means you're a bad player", we are not trolling.

Stop trying to sound smart. It's starting to sound unoriginal to you guys now because a majority of the community knows how unskilled proc sets are.

Throwing on proc sets is just as unoriginal as Balorgh / NMA / Potatoes. It could be considered more boring too since so much damage can be dealt without even trying. All we did was trade one meta for another. The fact is there will always be a meta, and people will follow that meta. Build diversity shouldn't come at the cost of reducing skill, cause no matter what anyone says, this is what the proc sets do.

To be honest it sounds like you're playing Devil's advocate and you aren't helping their cause much.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

techyeshic

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Another ridiculous post...

https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

Here one button build winning all BG's .

Whatever hurts a tank hurts everyone else much harder... There is zero logic here...
You need to reduce the tankiness, the tools to kill people are there without free damage provided by these idiotic sets.
I too kill most players I encounter, those too tanky cannot kill me.

These aren't builds... They are armor designed to play the game for those incapable. The problem is people who are capable put these on and resentfully run one button builds.

Any defence for proc sets just reveals the complete ignorance for the basic mechanics of the game.

Lol I wonder how many people dont know his other videos and miss the sarcasm.

techyeshic

Waffennacht wrote: »

Spriggans vs Sheer in no CP:

the penetration of Spriggans will allow my attacks to deal 5.24% more damage to my opponent.

Currently Sheer gives 8766/6 dmg per sec minimum, or 1461 per sec; after BS 780.5

For Spriggans to increase the damage on my target by 780.5 real damage, I need to be dealing 29,790 damage per sec (tootltip) or 14,895 after BS...

Another way to look at it is:

The increase of damage from 473 Wpn damage increase will buff my damage from a specific attack by 539 dmg or 8%. Sheer in its current form increases the damage during the same GCD by 780.5 or 12%.

Essentially Sheer is giving a buff value of like approximately 630? And that can potentially double; with no cost.

Unfortunately though, sheer is far from an outlier as a proc set. A lot provides numbers similar to this. And many are not limited to a single target per duration

And that's not the end of the advantage. it's not just they outpace the damage boost. They do not rely on other stats to do so, so you can stack health and armor, and people are.

FrankonPC

Great points, I also have been saying a long time. I keep hearing about 'FREE damage' or 'lazy players' but the Proc sets they are complaining about have way more 'requirements' than every other set they like (special triggers/PROC, some percent chance, DOT changed from burst, cooldown). A lot of Stat/Damage sets give you permanent stats/damage WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.

And they conveniently forget about how stat/damage/crit give FREE damage to many different skills and attacks. If you add up all that extra FREE damage it is massively more FREE damage than any of the Proc sets.

this isn't true. If you think it is, do what I did. Slap on pi and go spam it in a bg with light attacks. You should do even more damage than i did! It's been shown in multiple threads now that proc sets are giving more than what stat based sets give.

relentless_turnip

techyeshic wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Another ridiculous post...

https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

Here one button build winning all BG's .

Whatever hurts a tank hurts everyone else much harder... There is zero logic here...
You need to reduce the tankiness, the tools to kill people are there without free damage provided by these idiotic sets.
I too kill most players I encounter, those too tanky cannot kill me.

These aren't builds... They are armor designed to play the game for those incapable. The problem is people who are capable put these on and resentfully run one button builds.

Any defence for proc sets just reveals the complete ignorance for the basic mechanics of the game.

Lol I wonder how many people dont know his other videos and miss the sarcasm.

From the reactions I've seen when posting it. A lot of people believe it is in defence of proc sets 😂 which goes to show you the kind of people we are arguing with...

Merforum

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Totally agree with you. I stopped using sheer venom because it's not that powerful, and just put on Torug pact bow with frost enchant (watch next they'll say enchantments are OP because I stacked infused and torug). BTW that would actually make sense if their argument was correct (That the problem is stacking). Or is it just stacking procs, but not stacking stam or stacking weapon damage or stacking crit, wth.

The amount of weapon damage, crit and stam that you *can* stack currently with sets does not give you close to the same value of

But you have been playing PVP for a long time, I only started PVP several weeks ago, that's why it took that long. I did get 4000 pnts with Sheer Venom before that but it was easier to get 5000 with Torugs. This is similar to the test you did. With Torug/engine guardian/alessian I got 4-5K several times, but it is situational. When there are 6-8 players fighting each other in a group and I'm above or keeping distant and just hitting them over and over with la/PsnInj and if they get close magnum shot, go invis, sneak around and start peppering again. If anything the LA weave is doing way more damage than sheer venom.

Now if there are 2 good players on either or both of the teams they will track me down and kill me over and over. Unless I have a good player on my team who is helping me. Maybe you are good enough to avoid getting killed by 2 good players, so you can get high score most of the time. Also when there are good players they steal most of my kills too. But when they aren't that good I steal their kills. The BOW plus staying at range stealing low health target kills IS what accounts for most of the point, STYLE not Sets.

I bet you can wear just about any sets and do the same thing with the same technique and similar level of opponents. Here's another test for you, try using the same setup but instead of bow using 2hand and spamming Executioner. Should be way more damage that way but would that play style allow you to get high score.

I already stopped using those sets so I don't care either way but I don't agree that they are OP. And don't understand how stacking permanent damage is less powerful than a conditional damage with cooldown and purgable. Seems like this is a case of a handful of people that want everyone to adopt their play style so they can dominate them, and anything that is different or competitive with it must be Nerfed.

You don't understand they are op because by your own admission you only started PvP a few weeks a go. You are also in low MMR BG as a result of only playing PvP a few weeks, again this makes your perspective questionable imo.

Not going to bait me with irrelevant MMR discussion. But even if I was super high MMR on one account what stops me from creating another account with no MMR and create a vid of me beating a bunch of beginners.

If anything is broken it is this (I think he knows it by calling it Overpowered in title and not being sarcastic)
https://youtu.be/48SCalMMtX4?t=563

When you can snipe, LA, poison inject and roll dodge almost instantly that is broken. He even explains how with a keyboard it is one key press. Snipe has high damage and FREE poison and FREE defile.The risk/reward is that Snipe has 1 second cast time (where someone by design has a chance to interrupt you), but if you can cancel the cast time by roll dodging or cloaking or blocking, which also allows you to avoid all damage but still land the snipe, that is broken.

This happened to me, I did toppling charge just as someone was lining up snipe (totally should have interrupted) but instead they rolled away, causing me to miss any damage, and STILL get hit by snipe. And don't get me started on jabbers, who can bash and/or light attack in between to get the full damage plus FREE extra damage.

If any skill has a cast time/channel (which give high damage and FREE effects at the cost of potentially getting interrupted) but you can CANCEL the cast time/channel using a skill that eliminates the chance to interrupt/damage while still providing all the FREE damage and FREE effects, that needs to be fixed.

ZOS needs to either make those skills INSTANT attacks with corresponding reduction in FREE damage, or make it so cancelling with roll dodge/etc also cancels the attack. These type of exploits are way more problematic than any proc sets. Also the fact that simmering frenzy can proc continuously in battleground instead of after you engage the enemy is broken too.

I don't take anything away from the skill of maneuvering and other stuff explained in the video, just the insane FREE/easy to obtain Damage and instant kill potential of all the exploits being used.

MentalxHammer

Swordancer wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I've barely ran proc sets this patch and there's not many tanks I have an issue with killing. Are there some? Absolutely...but go after what makes the tank function so well.

Sheer venom is still extremely powerful even after the nerf. It could honestly use an even larger nerf than it has received due to the scaling execute.

Show me. Show me how powerfull is sheer venom. Go Cyro, press win + g, start recording and kill some ppl using it. I want to see who kills you first, another sheer venom user or simple but soilid tank. As I said this build is usefull in particular situations but it isn't OP at all. It's a myth.

IsThereNo1Else did a test the other day in BG's where he ONLY used light attacks and poison injection to deliver damage to prove a point of how OP proc sets are. With just one skill and light attacks he was dealing around 700k damage per game, this is not okay.

Proc sets are literally destroying pvp in this game, sheer venom is a good start.

relentless_turnip

Merforum wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Totally agree with you. I stopped using sheer venom because it's not that powerful, and just put on Torug pact bow with frost enchant (watch next they'll say enchantments are OP because I stacked infused and torug). BTW that would actually make sense if their argument was correct (That the problem is stacking). Or is it just stacking procs, but not stacking stam or stacking weapon damage or stacking crit, wth.

The amount of weapon damage, crit and stam that you *can* stack currently with sets does not give you close to the same value of

But you have been playing PVP for a long time, I only started PVP several weeks ago, that's why it took that long. I did get 4000 pnts with Sheer Venom before that but it was easier to get 5000 with Torugs. This is similar to the test you did. With Torug/engine guardian/alessian I got 4-5K several times, but it is situational. When there are 6-8 players fighting each other in a group and I'm above or keeping distant and just hitting them over and over with la/PsnInj and if they get close magnum shot, go invis, sneak around and start peppering again. If anything the LA weave is doing way more damage than sheer venom.

Now if there are 2 good players on either or both of the teams they will track me down and kill me over and over. Unless I have a good player on my team who is helping me. Maybe you are good enough to avoid getting killed by 2 good players, so you can get high score most of the time. Also when there are good players they steal most of my kills too. But when they aren't that good I steal their kills. The BOW plus staying at range stealing low health target kills IS what accounts for most of the point, STYLE not Sets.

I bet you can wear just about any sets and do the same thing with the same technique and similar level of opponents. Here's another test for you, try using the same setup but instead of bow using 2hand and spamming Executioner. Should be way more damage that way but would that play style allow you to get high score.

I already stopped using those sets so I don't care either way but I don't agree that they are OP. And don't understand how stacking permanent damage is less powerful than a conditional damage with cooldown and purgable. Seems like this is a case of a handful of people that want everyone to adopt their play style so they can dominate them, and anything that is different or competitive with it must be Nerfed.

You don't understand they are op because by your own admission you only started PvP a few weeks a go. You are also in low MMR BG as a result of only playing PvP a few weeks, again this makes your perspective questionable imo.

Not going to bait me with irrelevant MMR discussion. But even if I was super high MMR on one account what stops me from creating another account with no MMR and create a vid of me beating a bunch of beginners.

If anything is broken it is this (I think he knows it by calling it Overpowered in title and not being sarcastic)
https://youtu.be/48SCalMMtX4?t=563

When you can snipe, LA, poison inject and roll dodge almost instantly that is broken. He even explains how with a keyboard it is one key press. Snipe has high damage and FREE poison and FREE defile.The risk/reward is that Snipe has 1 second cast time (where someone by design has a chance to interrupt you), but if you can cancel the cast time by roll dodging or cloaking or blocking, which also allows you to avoid all damage but still land the snipe, that is broken.

This happened to me, I did toppling charge just as someone was lining up snipe (totally should have interrupted) but instead they rolled away, causing me to miss any damage, and STILL get hit by snipe. And don't get me started on jabbers, who can bash and/or light attack in between to get the full damage plus FREE extra damage.

If any skill has a cast time/channel (which give high damage and FREE effects at the cost of potentially getting interrupted) but you can CANCEL the cast time/channel using a skill that eliminates the chance to interrupt/damage while still providing all the FREE damage and FREE effects, that needs to be fixed.

ZOS needs to either make those skills INSTANT attacks with corresponding reduction in FREE damage, or make it so cancelling with roll dodge/etc also cancels the attack. These type of exploits are way more problematic than any proc sets. Also the fact that simmering frenzy can proc continuously in battleground instead of after you engage the enemy is broken too.

I don't take anything away from the skill of maneuvering and other stuff explained in the video, just the insane FREE/easy to obtain Damage and instant kill potential of all the exploits being used.

😂😂😂😂 This video is not in service of your argument! It is satirical, mocking the ease of use in stacking proc sets. Listen to the end of the video... MMR is relevant because we are talking about 2 different types of PvP, beginner PvP(where you are matched with beginners) and high MMR PvP(where players with considerable experience are fighting). Thank you for saving me the trouble of a full reply by using this video😂