Why wasn't vampire touched at all during this patch?

Daemonai · October 2020

ManM wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.

The problem is that words and concepts do mean things. When we are talking about a "vampire" that has no actual need to drink blood, and who actually gets significantly weaker when they do drink blood, there is huge disconnect between the concept of a vampire and what was delivered. Much like people protested about vampires that sparkle in the sunlight, there are equally valid protests about "vampires" that don't need to drink blood.

Even the dialog Lamae uses indicates that her scions are supposed to get stronger by feeding, but the in game play experience is precisely the opposite of the in game lore. I understand that some people simply don't care about such things, but I believe a fair amount of people do.

When your stated design goal is to promote the behavior of a vampire regularly feeding, and then you release a skill line that punishes players for regularly feeding, there is a problem.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Vampires gets weaker by feeding? Currently, when Vampires feed they progress in stages, which grant them access to Vampires' increasingly powerful passives. And Vampire passives are perhaps the strongest, most transformative in the game. How is that getting weaker?

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Exactly. One thing I see very rarely acknowledged by people who like the current iteration of vampire is how absolutely lore breaking the play style currently is.

That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.

On themes, you say you'd like Vampires to have more, "bats, life-steal, mobility, blood magic, long-range spell casting, AoE damage..." I'd say the skill line already has most of those themes. But I'm curious, how many more of the 5 vampire abilities do you think should be devoted to bats? To fully incorporate all the themes you'd like, ZOS would likely need to add more abilities, which probably isn't going to happen.

I feel that a lot of the discussion around Vampires has devolved into people venting about Vampire not adhering to their own personal aesthetic rather than if the skill line actually works as is. IMO, Vampire does work, just not as well as it should, which unsurprisingly is because of player feedback; Vampire worked much better with the 40% ability cost decrease, but players complained.

My hope is ZOS takes the Vampire line and refines it so it's functional foremost, everything else should be secondary.

Man, I didn't know you spoke for most people. You hear that @ everyone? This dood apparently knows what you care about. Jokes aside. Surely he must be looking at some other statistic to get this idea than the forums because on the forums a very good portion (maybe not majority, but not in insignificant number) care about vampire. It isn't something everyone cares about, but the majority of people who do care about vampire agree something is messed up with it. Which is why these threads typically get a lot of traction. Back when the reveal was being spoken about, threads like this one littered the front page for months. Funny how not a single one talking about the good things regarding vamp can stay relevant for more than a few days.

And you still seem to miss the lore breaking I am referring to just as predicted. Vampires, even ones made by Lamae, go to Molag Bal when they die. Why would they want to use skills that kill themselves with this thought in mind? None of her dialogue explains that. In fact her dialogue and even the tutorial quest largely ignore blood frenzy's existence. Despite it being "the prime example of vampires in ES"

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

ManM wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.

The problem is that words and concepts do mean things. When we are talking about a "vampire" that has no actual need to drink blood, and who actually gets significantly weaker when they do drink blood, there is huge disconnect between the concept of a vampire and what was delivered. Much like people protested about vampires that sparkle in the sunlight, there are equally valid protests about "vampires" that don't need to drink blood.

Even the dialog Lamae uses indicates that her scions are supposed to get stronger by feeding, but the in game play experience is precisely the opposite of the in game lore. I understand that some people simply don't care about such things, but I believe a fair amount of people do.

When your stated design goal is to promote the behavior of a vampire regularly feeding, and then you release a skill line that punishes players for regularly feeding, there is a problem.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Vampires gets weaker by feeding? Currently, when Vampires feed they progress in stages, which grant them access to Vampires' increasingly powerful passives. And Vampire passives are perhaps the strongest, most transformative in the game. How is that getting weaker?

Might I point you to the boat load of weaknesses that gets increased each time they feed? And also the vampire passives are good, but they aren't exactly anything to write home about lol. And they certainly do not outweigh the negatives.

Daemonai · October 2020

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Might I point you to the boat load of weaknesses that gets increased each time they feed? And also the vampire passives are good, but they aren't exactly anything to write home about lol. And they certainly do not outweigh the negatives.

Perspective. You've chosen to focus on the negatives instead of the positives.

Vampires lose health regeneration, gain weakness to fire and an increase to non-vampire skill cost in exchange for an even greater decrease in Vampire skill cost, 30% stackable damage mitigation, no movement penalty on Sneak and a decrease in time to enter Sneak, and cloaking uptimes rivaling that of Nightblade on ANY class, with a spell/weapon damage buff on leaving cloak and a decrease to sprint cost.

The benefits far outweigh the negatives and it's ridiculous to claim otherwise. The Dark Stalker passive alone requires an entire armor set to get by non-Vampire means. Vampire passives are ridiculously strong.

Vevvev · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

cloaking uptimes rivaling that of Nightblade on ANY class

While I can marginally agree with your other points I must disagree on this one. If there is a stage that needs a buff it is stage 4 because the 3 seconds of sprinting required to get that cloak, and the amount of stupid stuff that can rip you out of it like stubbing your toe on a rock, makes the stage 4 passive worthless in a straight up fight. What it needs to make it more usable is a small speed increase like minor expedition to make it passively buff you in combat.

The only time you ever really sprint is when chasing someone down or running for your life, and in Cyrodiil what counts as 3 seconds could be like 10 seconds or more. Granted it is easy cheese in PVE, but in PVP its worthless.

Daemonai · October 2020

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Surely he must be looking at some other statistic to get this idea than the forums because on the forums a very good portion (maybe not majority, but not in insignificant number) care about vampire. It isn't something everyone cares about, but the majority of people who do care about vampire agree something is messed up with it.

Does everyone care about how many bat-flavored abilities there are or is that just you? While there may exist an idea that Vampire needs changes (I agree), as I said earlier there isn't nearly the consensus about what needs to be changed that you think there is. You know what you want, I know what I want, and we know what a fraction of the entire ESO community wants because most players don't even use the forums.

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

And you still seem to miss the lore breaking I am referring to just as predicted. Vampires, even ones made by Lamae, go to Molag Bal when they die. Why would they want to use skills that kill themselves with this thought in mind? None of her dialogue explains that. In fact her dialogue and even the tutorial quest largely ignore blood frenzy's existence. Despite it being "the prime example of vampires in ES"

I hesitate to say it because I don't want to sound overly rude but who cares about these extremely esoteric pieces of lore buried twenty branches deep into a dialogue tree except you? And how does it affect how Vampire functions gameplay-wise? Truthfully, neither of us should be making claims about what the majority wants but I'm 99.99% certain the majority of players are more interested in how Vampire plays and not strict lore adherence.

Should vampires also get sun weakness because it is lore consistent to previous E.S. games or do we acknowledge that Lamae Bal's strain of vampirism works differently than other vampires? And if we acknowledge that Lamae's strain works differently, then reverse-feeding, Blood Scions, Blood Frenzy, ect. should all be allowable and not conflicting with E.S. lore.

In the end, though, it's all academic because game lore is retconned all the time. And MMO's are rarely faithful to their solo counterparts. It's almost not worth arguing about.

ManM · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Vampires gets weaker by feeding? Currently, when Vampires feed they progress in stages, which grant them access to Vampires' increasingly powerful passives. And Vampire passives are perhaps the strongest, most transformative in the game. How is that getting weaker?

The passives are certainly situationally useful, but the cost paid for them is incredibly significant, especially considering what those drawbacks are, and what they represent psychologically.

Health regen is associated with being young and healthy. Usually, we associate a lack of healing with malnourishment, old age, and infirmity. Drinking blood, which is supposed to give a vampire strength, is instead providing a powerful message of increasing weakness.

The same thing can be said about energy levels. High energy levels and endurance is associated with fitness and well being. Those who need to rest after small bits of exertion are less healthy. Drinking blood, which is supposed to give a vampire sustenance, is instead significantly reducing endurance, which adds to the perception of growing weakness.

The monstrous appearance is a visual indicator that something is very wrong, but that's what we get when we drink blood, which is supposed to be good for a vampire.

Add in that actual use of vampire skills tends to do significant self damage, and you feel even more fragile for using them.

Outside of these powerful subjective indications that blood is making you frail and sickly, objective DPS performance against hard targets is significantly lower for a stage 4 vampire, due to sustain problems. That's a point of numbers and math, and not up for debate. The passives gained are situationally useful for solo play, but the negatives impact every aspect of the combat experience, and objectively reduces effectiveness as a DPS, tank, or healer.

Does that help you understand where I'm coming from? I'm supposed to be a vampire, and blood is my food. The way it's set up now, blood is acting like a poison, rendering me weak and frail in spite of the situationally useful passives. It's confusing and nonsensical.

Nova_J · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Surely he must be looking at some other statistic to get this idea than the forums because on the forums a very good portion (maybe not majority, but not in insignificant number) care about vampire. It isn't something everyone cares about, but the majority of people who do care about vampire agree something is messed up with it.

Does everyone care about how many bat-flavored abilities there are or is that just you? While there may exist an idea that Vampire needs changes (I agree), as I said earlier there isn't nearly the consensus about what needs to be changed that you think there is. You know what you want, I know what I want, and we know what a fraction of the entire ESO community wants because most players don't even use the forums.

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

And you still seem to miss the lore breaking I am referring to just as predicted. Vampires, even ones made by Lamae, go to Molag Bal when they die. Why would they want to use skills that kill themselves with this thought in mind? None of her dialogue explains that. In fact her dialogue and even the tutorial quest largely ignore blood frenzy's existence. Despite it being "the prime example of vampires in ES"

I hesitate to say it because I don't want to sound overly rude but who cares about these extremely esoteric pieces of lore buried twenty branches deep into a dialogue tree except you? And how does it affect how Vampire functions gameplay-wise? Truthfully, neither of us should be making claims about what the majority wants but I'm 99.99% certain the majority of players are more interested in how Vampire plays and not strict lore adherence.

Should vampires also get sun weakness because it is lore consistent to previous E.S. games or do we acknowledge that Lamae Bal's strain of vampirism works differently than other vampires? And if we acknowledge that Lamae's strain works differently, then reverse-feeding, Blood Scions, Blood Frenzy, ect. should all be allowable and not conflicting with E.S. lore.

In the end, though, it's all academic because game lore is retconned all the time. And MMO's are rarely faithful to their solo counterparts. It's almost not worth arguing about.

Lore is very important, especially when talking about something like Vampires and WW. They couldn't bring sunlight weakness into the game because the games day and night cycle cannot be set. This is a multiplayer game, so they have to cut some corners and one will ever complain about that.
If vampires drank water instead of blood you're telling me you wouldn't be bothered?? I find that very ridiculous that you think the lore isnt important. ES had already established vampires and what they are, they retconned them solely to align with new ultimate and nothing more. You realize that "scions" weren't even supposed to exist? The current iteration of vampire was not the devs original intent at all.

And if lore doesnt matter that much they wouldn't have bothered fixing the dialogue lines and would've let Lamae keep calling us vampire lords whe we aren't. The devs understand the importance of lore, even though the masses are ignorant to it.

Nova_J · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Exactly. One thing I see very rarely acknowledged by people who like the current iteration of vampire is how absolutely lore breaking the play style currently is.

That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.

On themes, you say you'd like Vampires to have more, "bats, life-steal, mobility, blood magic, long-range spell casting, AoE damage..." I'd say the skill line already has most of those themes. But I'm curious, how many more of the 5 vampire abilities do you think should be devoted to bats? To fully incorporate all the themes you'd like, ZOS would likely need to add more abilities, which probably isn't going to happen.

I feel that a lot of the discussion around Vampires has devolved into people venting about Vampire not adhering to their own personal aesthetic rather than if the skill line actually works as is. IMO, Vampire does work, just not as well as it should, which unsurprisingly is because of player feedback; Vampire worked much better with the 40% ability cost decrease, but players complained.

My hope is ZOS takes the Vampire line and refines it so it's functional foremost, everything else should be secondary.

Were you even there at that pts interval?? People SCREAMED at ZOS multiple different fixes for the vamp line. One of the main complaints was the cost increase. The reason why the vamp skills cost decrease was at 40% is because the increase for non vamp skills was at 20%.
It wasn't even usable for anything but dps. The only reason we are able to even have vamp on our healers and tanks is because
WE said something.

We made multiple threads explaining exactly what was going to happen to the line if they left it like it was. We offered them multiple threads of alterations that went completely ignored. I myself literally made 3 seperate threads that predicted exactly what would happen to BfB and blood frenzy. And now they were both put into the dirt.

Most of the feedback about the line's actual future was completely ignored. Literally week one of BfB launching people called out how BiS it would be, we warned them about blood frenzy and told them to just completely change the skill because it would either be to weak, or too strong, it's way to difficult to find middle ground for something like that. We told them how stupid the cost increase was and said specifically when they adjusted them, that they also need to adjust the cost of the skills, did they do it? No. The current vamp skills cost are still balanced around 40% cost reduction cap.

We tried to get them to fix/buff drain.
We told them about the stun.
We told them about frenzy.
We told them about Bfb.
We tried to get them to buff perfect scion.
Hell we even had to tell them to fix the voice lines lol.

But, they felt like what they did was enough.

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Might I point you to the boat load of weaknesses that gets increased each time they feed? And also the vampire passives are good, but they aren't exactly anything to write home about lol. And they certainly do not outweigh the negatives.

Perspective. You've chosen to focus on the negatives instead of the positives.

Vampires lose health regeneration, gain weakness to fire and an increase to non-vampire skill cost in exchange for an even greater decrease in Vampire skill cost, 30% stackable damage mitigation, no movement penalty on Sneak and a decrease in time to enter Sneak, and cloaking uptimes rivaling that of Nightblade on ANY class, with a spell/weapon damage buff on leaving cloak and a decrease to sprint cost.

The benefits far outweigh the negatives and it's ridiculous to claim otherwise. The Dark Stalker passive alone requires an entire armor set to get by non-Vampire means. Vampire passives are ridiculously strong.

1. All of vampire's skills are pretty bleh compared to literally any other skills, so the increase in vampiric cost reduction does basically nothing.
2. Once again, I agree that the passives are good. But it is absolutely ABSURD and ridiculous to claim that the positives outweigh the negatives. If that were the case, my friend, I can assure you'd see more vampires and less complaints about the skill line. Considering the latter is still very much in effect, something is wrong no matter how many times you try to slice it up and say 'oh but everything is fine'. Clearly with this many people who love vampire mind you dissatisfied then something isn't right. Objectively.
3. Glad you're having fun with the line, again go ahead. But don't step on our toes while we try to get the skill line to be made better and more in line with the lore and game.

Sephyr · October 2020

Nova_J wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Exactly. One thing I see very rarely acknowledged by people who like the current iteration of vampire is how absolutely lore breaking the play style currently is.

That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.

On themes, you say you'd like Vampires to have more, "bats, life-steal, mobility, blood magic, long-range spell casting, AoE damage..." I'd say the skill line already has most of those themes. But I'm curious, how many more of the 5 vampire abilities do you think should be devoted to bats? To fully incorporate all the themes you'd like, ZOS would likely need to add more abilities, which probably isn't going to happen.

I feel that a lot of the discussion around Vampires has devolved into people venting about Vampire not adhering to their own personal aesthetic rather than if the skill line actually works as is. IMO, Vampire does work, just not as well as it should, which unsurprisingly is because of player feedback; Vampire worked much better with the 40% ability cost decrease, but players complained.

My hope is ZOS takes the Vampire line and refines it so it's functional foremost, everything else should be secondary.

Were you even there at that pts interval?? People SCREAMED at ZOS multiple different fixes for the vamp line. One of the main complaints was the cost increase. The reason why the vamp skills cost decrease was at 40% is because the increase for non vamp skills was at 20%.
It wasn't even usable for anything but dps. The only reason we are able to even have vamp on our healers and tanks is because
WE said something.

We made multiple threads explaining exactly what was going to happen to the line if they left it like it was. We offered them multiple threads of alterations that went completely ignored. I myself literally made 3 seperate threads that predicted exactly what would happen to BfB and blood frenzy. And now they were both put into the dirt.

Most of the feedback about the line's actual future was completely ignored. Literally week one of BfB launching people called out how BiS it would be, we warned them about blood frenzy and told them to just completely change the skill because it would either be to weak, or too strong, it's way to difficult to find middle ground for something like that. We told them how stupid the cost increase was and said specifically when they adjusted them, that they also need to adjust the cost of the skills, did they do it? No. The current vamp skills cost are still balanced around 40% cost reduction cap.

We tried to get them to fix/buff drain.
We told them about the stun.
We told them about frenzy.
We told them about Bfb.
We tried to get them to buff perfect scion.
Hell we even had to tell them to fix the voice lines lol.

But, they felt like what they did was enough.

I was about to go into something like this, but then my dungeon popped. This is why I don't understand the claim that none of us can agree. Many of us just have different ideas and most of the disagreements are due to the balancing and engagement of the line, but we were all in those threads trying to warn them about what would happen if those abilities went live. I also remember the lore stream where they said they had to 'remove the wings'. If lore didn't matter, we'd all be vampire lords. I know I was /feedbacking in game quite a bit over those abilities though. Also the fact we couldn't heal after feeding is just so counter-intuitive that we all may as well just play cannibals.

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Surely he must be looking at some other statistic to get this idea than the forums because on the forums a very good portion (maybe not majority, but not in insignificant number) care about vampire. It isn't something everyone cares about, but the majority of people who do care about vampire agree something is messed up with it.

Does everyone care about how many bat-flavored abilities there are or is that just you? While there may exist an idea that Vampire needs changes (I agree), as I said earlier there isn't nearly the consensus about what needs to be changed that you think there is. You know what you want, I know what I want, and we know what a fraction of the entire ESO community wants because most players don't even use the forums.

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

And you still seem to miss the lore breaking I am referring to just as predicted. Vampires, even ones made by Lamae, go to Molag Bal when they die. Why would they want to use skills that kill themselves with this thought in mind? None of her dialogue explains that. In fact her dialogue and even the tutorial quest largely ignore blood frenzy's existence. Despite it being "the prime example of vampires in ES"

I hesitate to say it because I don't want to sound overly rude but who cares about these extremely esoteric pieces of lore buried twenty branches deep into a dialogue tree except you? And how does it affect how Vampire functions gameplay-wise? Truthfully, neither of us should be making claims about what the majority wants but I'm 99.99% certain the majority of players are more interested in how Vampire plays and not strict lore adherence.

Should vampires also get sun weakness because it is lore consistent to previous E.S. games or do we acknowledge that Lamae Bal's strain of vampirism works differently than other vampires? And if we acknowledge that Lamae's strain works differently, then reverse-feeding, Blood Scions, Blood Frenzy, ect. should all be allowable and not conflicting with E.S. lore.

In the end, though, it's all academic because game lore is retconned all the time. And MMO's are rarely faithful to their solo counterparts. It's almost not worth arguing about.

I shall address your statements in order. Please bear with me as this will be quite long:

Yeah, everyone cares that vampires use the same night magic as the vampires we fight. It provides immersion and back when the PTS for the rework was out, the majority suggestion was to replace Blood Frenzy with a night-magic ability.

I would disagree with there not being a general consensus on what needs to be changed. When I mentioned those topics, that quite literally is everything everyone has ever mentioned. We all seem to be in agreeance that is what needs to be added/changed somehow. The only thing that really stirs the pot typically is Blood Frenzy because some people do like that skill, as I mentioned. But compromises have been found and made. Are there *some* people who still want change yet want blood frenzy to stay? Yes. But at that point you have to listen to majority numbers and face the fact that if you like blood frenzy, moving its bonus to the ultimate would be just as likeable and it'd free up a skill slot for something more useful that may be liked even more.

And I can agree with you that a fraction of the community uses the forums. So I and many others only have our guild and ingame experiences to go off of plus what we can see here on the forum. And in general at least from everything I have seen and what people have told me they've seen, people DO NOT like the vampire skill line. In fact, literally just yesterday saw a dude in western skyrim asking about the rework and if he should become one for stamden. Many people in chat chimed in telling him that new vampire is a hinderance, especially on a stam character. My experiences and everyone else's experiences outside of the forums might be different though, which is why I often use the 'we can only measure the statistics we can see' argument. Which refers to us only being able to take what we can see on the forums at face value, which is that the majority of vampire-lovers have an issue with vampire one way or another and those that like the skill line number around 5-10 somewhere between there. Maybe 12.

And as for your lore bit: I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm not exactly the ONLY person talking on this thread or every other vampire thread about broken lore. Lore is very important in the ES universe as @Nova_J said. The fact that the current blood frenzy mechanic goes against it is very bothersome indeed. It effects how vampire functions gameplay wise because let me explain something to you: If my vampire acts 100% differently to the world's vampires and has broken-lore aspects that make no sense, it ruins immersion and that feeling of being a part of the world. Which is the entire point of Elder Scrolls. It's the point of building your character in a world to begin with.

I will semi-agree with you that a good chunk of players, since ESO is a casual game, do not care about the lore behind vampires and care more about how they play. BUT I will also explain this to you: You know what is keeping ESO in the top 3 mmo spot, right? You think it's gameplay? Class variety? Maybe customization? No. It's because it is Elder Scrolls. Which means people DO care about and love the lore. If this game wasn't an Elder Scrolls game, it would not have been able to make a comeback after the horrid launch. It would have died in 2015/2016.

However, I will use this common ground to explain to you while you are still wrong. Let's say they do care about how the vampire plays and don't know/care much about the lore. But you tell me this: How does a suicidal vampire sound fun to play? You think players who focus purely on gameplay are going to look at vampire and go "wow, awesome! I can't wait to kill myself! Can't wait to be forced into melee range as a magicka user! Can't wait to not have access to any mobility spells if Im player necromancer! Can't wait to have a re-skin of an existing ultimate as my ultimate! Can't wait to have the only stun in the entire game that does nothing else but stun! Can't wait to have the worst heal in the entire game!" Only thing people might get excited at is being able to become invis while running. Basically, what I'm saying is even people focused on gameplay DO NOT like vampire. Want to know how I know? I have invited around 10-ish friends who have never played elder scrolls ever to come play between greymoor launch and now. Every single one of them tried out vampire between greymoor launch and now with no prior knowledge from me first hand about the line. Want to know how many of them kept vampire? The nightblade. He was the only one. Reason being? Is because the passives were neat. He doesn't even use any of the skills because they are all BORING.

Another topic regarding your 'people caring about gameplay vs lore statement': How do you think it makes players feel to fight normal-rando vamps that can do cool stuff they can't? Like summon clouds of bats at people, turn into clouds of bats, use various AoE blood magic abilities, even summon death hounds and blood imps. Typically in MMOs if you're the same thing as a normal trash NPC, you expect to be able to do the same stuff. That's how it is in ever ES game and most other MMOs. That's why 'classes and skill lines' exist in the first place, to give you a tie-in connection to the NPCs of the world through gameplay.

It was already established that Lamae's line works different compared to other vampires in regards to sun damage. However, that does not mean that Lamae's line does not die and go to molag bal like every other vampire. Blood Scions are fine, even though they never existed before greymoor and (honestly had no reason to, since Lamae is more than likely a vamp lord herself) BUT regardless, you are aware that all vampires are still vampires, right? Therefore BLOODFRENZY cannot and does not make sense in lore neither does Blood For Blood. As vampires killing themselves literally has never been a thing ever and contradicts what a vampire is in Elder Scrolls. It literally **is not what a vampire is in this Universe**. They are supposed to want to PRESERVE themselves, that is the entire point. Not kill themselves for quite frankly pitiful amounts of power.

If lore didn't matter then Blood Scions wouldn't exist and we'd all just be vampire lords without a second thought. But clearly, the dev team thought it'd be important to make us different from them due to something regarding lore.

To retcon that vampires don't go to Molag bal when they die would literally destroy vampire lore in Elder Scrolls. As that ties in with their creation. Lore is very important in this game and it is supposed to be reflected in gameplay. Believe it or not, even though they might not be the majority, a BIG draw to ESO is the Elder Scrolls **lore.**

Sephyr · October 2020

I just think it's strange how people think that a vampire using it's own health, rather than the blood of the victims it consumes, is somehow lore friendly. Because it isn't. It'd be far better to use some kind of additional blood meter or something that takes your staging down and have Frenzy/Fury rely on the use of certain stages, particularly Stage 3 and 4 because those would be the hardest to get your health back (unless you're a Magblade).

Lamae's little 'experiment' was a failure and if her line is the line that's intended to fork into the different lesser vampire lines, it's probably because people down the road started experimenting on themselves to rid themselves of her and left her in the past - withered and forgotten. I'd have staked her myself.

Vevvev · October 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

I just think it's strange how people think that a vampire using it's own health, rather than the blood of the victims it consumes, is somehow lore friendly. Because it isn't. It'd be far better to use some kind of additional blood meter or something that takes your staging down and have Frenzy/Fury rely on the use of certain stages, particularly Stage 3 and 4 because those would be the hardest to get your health back (unless you're a Magblade).

Lamae's little 'experiment' was a failure and if her line is the line that's intended to fork into the different lesser vampire lines, it's probably because people down the road started experimenting on themselves to rid themselves of her and left her in the past - withered and forgotten. I'd have staked her myself.

Or have a blood meter alongside your stage timer. Feeding fills the bar to full and using drain restores some points every second. What the meter does is make all vampire abilities stronger, but using them consumes the blood in that meter. When the meter is at 0 the extra vampire ability strength will be at 0 so a vampire that doesn't feed or drain their victims will be weaker than one that does.

Daemonai · October 2020

This has been a great discussion but this is where I bow out. The lore discussion is just not as interesting or worthwhile (to me) as the mechanical one; how Vampire plays.

Hopefully, ZOS can extract something from this discussion to make Vampire better. And if we get more bats out of the deal I guess that's just a bonus. Cheers

Sephyr · October 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

I just think it's strange how people think that a vampire using it's own health, rather than the blood of the victims it consumes, is somehow lore friendly. Because it isn't. It'd be far better to use some kind of additional blood meter or something that takes your staging down and have Frenzy/Fury rely on the use of certain stages, particularly Stage 3 and 4 because those would be the hardest to get your health back (unless you're a Magblade).

Lamae's little 'experiment' was a failure and if her line is the line that's intended to fork into the different lesser vampire lines, it's probably because people down the road started experimenting on themselves to rid themselves of her and left her in the past - withered and forgotten. I'd have staked her myself.

Or have a blood meter alongside your stage timer. Feeding fills the bar to full and using drain restores some points every second. What the meter does is make all vampire abilities stronger, but using them consumes the blood in that meter. When the meter is at 0 the extra vampire ability strength will be at 0 so a vampire that doesn't feed or drain their victims will be weaker than one that does.

Yeah, that'd work as well considering that using the blood of your victims would make more sense than what obviously feels missing. Just something that makes feeding actually matter. Stage 4 for the most part isn't the best passive in the game and most builds that I've actually looked at rely on just Stage 3 and below to maximize on Undeath. I'm just feeling what was sorely missed while working with my Vampblade. With that, all the themes are there. Every other class? Smoke and mirrors. Just smoke and mirrors.

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Daemonai wrote: »

This has been a great discussion but this is where I bow out. The lore discussion is just not as interesting or worthwhile (to me) as the mechanical one; how Vampire plays.

Hopefully, ZOS can extract something from this discussion to make Vampire better. And if we get more bats out of the deal I guess that's just a bonus. Cheers

I have a lot of respect for you for making this choice.

Thank you for understanding and letting us try to get something better.

I wish most people that came on here trying to say that vampire is fine as is had whatever the heck you have that caused you come to this conclusion: If you like the current vampire; it being made better will only make you happier. Especially if we get more bats out of the deal!

Thank you again. Legit probably the FIRST ever vampire-skill-line liker I've ever seen finally understand that we are not on different sides here. Even if you're dipping out mainly for lore reasons, you still hope that ZoS can make the skill line better. Which is all we can ever ask.

Sephyr · October 2020

Something else that I've been noticing to address the whole "Now you have to actually BE a vampire" argument from others earlier. I've done some perusing through the various builds all over the internet, including a lot of the popular ones. I won't name any names, but I can without a doubt say that it was the most illuminating thing that I've seen this week.

For starters, most only use one or two abilities, including the ultimate, and literally stay at Stage 1-2. Stage 3 with three or more abilities, excluding the ultimate is uncommon, and I've only seen two builds that use Stage 4 with at least four abilities, excluding the ultimate. Other popular YouTubers have called Blood for Blood a "one patch wonder", meaning it was good for one patch and literally was nerfed into uselessness stating that they'd be skipping Vampirism, even with Simmering Frenzy which they also stated was too clunky to manage in any group content.

I wonder how many who use that argument are actually BEING a 'Vampire'. Just a little observation.

Fuzzybrick · October 2020

I can agree with a lot being said, but I also disagree. My biggest gripe in this game, is it seems the loudest screamers get their way. Personally I'm enjoying my vampire right now. Though some skills could be changed in my opinion. I can push her spell power to 8k when I want, and I've learned to not expect to get everything, the class could be changed again at any moment. Honestly though... I'd prefer it better if they were a true class of their own and fleshed out a little more. Anyway, I'm having fun with her and I just don't want them to do a sweeping change to the "class" again. I'd prefer Tweeks.

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

I can agree with a lot being said, but I also disagree. My biggest gripe in this game, is it seems the loudest screamers get their way. Personally I'm enjoying my vampire right now. Though some skills could be changed in my opinion. I can push her spell power to 8k when I want, and I've learned to not expect to get everything, the class could be changed again at any moment. Honestly though... I'd prefer it better if they were a true class of their own and fleshed out a little more. Anyway, I'm having fun with her and I just don't want them to do a sweeping change to the "class" again. I'd prefer Tweeks.

I am glad you enjoy the skill line.

The most major tweak to the skill line would be either completely reworking the ultimate (but still keep scions a thing, just give it another effect that makes it not a bone goliath clone.) or removing blood frenzy in favor of something else (most notably a bat night magic skill.)

I don't think the skill line needs a full blown 2nd rework. They just need to fix what is currently wrong with it.

Ryuvain · October 2020

Due to being a hybrid class, i don't think they can afford to make anything remotely strong sadly. But they could always improve mechanics like taking bloodknight notes for scion.

wheem_ESO · October 2020

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

I don't think the skill line needs a full blown 2nd rework. They just need to fix what is currently wrong with it.

But there's a lot wrong with it. The spammable isn't good in either PvP or PvE, the crowd control is absolute garbage in PvP, Blood Frenzy is really only usable when ganking, and even then doesn't often get utilized as far as I can tell. And Vampire Drain is so bad I almost forgot to even mention it.

The only things remotely useful for PvP in the Vampire skill line are Mist Form, which can sometimes bug out and instantly cancel itself (before completing the animation, even), and Blood Scion for some classes. If you can spam a gap closer, Blood Scion is actually kind of decent by itself...but once you account for all the associated drawbacks, I think it falls by the wayside.

As I repeatedly stated during the Vampire re-work's PTS cycle; the only classes that are capable of utilizing the Vampire's melee-based skills in PvP, won't. Magicka DKs and Templars aren't going to be running around with the Vampire spammable in place of whip or sweeps, and the other abilities and passives are by no means worth being in higher Vamp stages for. Honestly, I don't even know that Mist Form is worth it with the drawbacks of Stage-1, given how prevalent Dawnbreaker is (and has been for multiple years), but I'm still using it for now...more out of longstanding tradition than actual usefulness.

Sephyr · October 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

I don't think the skill line needs a full blown 2nd rework. They just need to fix what is currently wrong with it.

But there's a lot wrong with it. The spammable isn't good in either PvP or PvE, the crowd control is absolute garbage in PvP, Blood Frenzy is really only usable when ganking, and even then doesn't often get utilized as far as I can tell. And Vampire Drain is so bad I almost forgot to even mention it.

The only things remotely useful for PvP in the Vampire skill line are Mist Form, which can sometimes bug out and instantly cancel itself (before completing the animation, even), and Blood Scion for some classes. If you can spam a gap closer, Blood Scion is actually kind of decent by itself...but once you account for all the associated drawbacks, I think it falls by the wayside.

As I repeatedly stated during the Vampire re-work's PTS cycle; the only classes that are capable of utilizing the Vampire's melee-based skills in PvP, won't. Magicka DKs and Templars aren't going to be running around with the Vampire spammable in place of whip or sweeps, and the other abilities and passives are by no means worth being in higher Vamp stages for. Honestly, I don't even know that Mist Form is worth it with the drawbacks of Stage-1, given how prevalent Dawnbreaker is (and has been for multiple years), but I'm still using it for now...more out of longstanding tradition than actual usefulness.

For the Swarming Scion bit, I could decently accept the form having the gap closer tacked back onto it. At least that'd be something to keep up with your prey (because Magcro can't even keep up so all you can do is ranged).

I've a main Magcro that's a vampire as well and my main spammable is Arterial Burst. I've made it work, but it really needs to be better. I know a few MagDKs that use the same, but making it work is different than it needing to be better--I'm sure a lot of us agree on that. As for how to make those abilities better? I'm not sure. Blood for Blood would be interesting if there was some sort of bleed to health mechanic that would live up to it's name. Arterial Burst would maybe have something like a ramping up of damage and magicka, but resets after five swipes or something (if something like that can be balanced). These are examples here, most of which I'm sure ZoS won't look at given as many threads there are going on about it.

For the record, I'm one of the few that's been making actual Vampire builds with my vamps. Both with sets, using most of the abilities, as well as accepting some of the challenges. If I'm going to be a vampire, I'm going to commit to it entirely. No other class synergizes it as well as Magblade. It's so disappointing that THAT'S the only class that has the ultimate vampire experience. The class itself ticks more boxes than Blood Frenzy does with being a vampire, and Vampire just seems to enhance that fact. I definitely feel you about the whole line being underwhelming in PvP.

Vevvev · October 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

For starters, most only use one or two abilities, including the ultimate, and literally stay at Stage 1-2. Stage 3 with three or more abilities, excluding the ultimate is uncommon.

Yeah, my build is very uncommon lol! Farthest I've managed to dip into vampirisim and still be able to slug it out with everyone else on the fields of Cyrodiil. Reason I go stage 3 is because at 80% health the damage mitigation from Undeath is the same as a Major Resolve buff, which means if you have Major Resolve its effectively doubled.

Also at that stage the flame damage isn't that bad and I'm actually more worried about getting smited with a Dawnbreaker. o_o

Stages 3-4 are the only stages where picking Arterial Burst is better for your sustain than picking up something like Flame Lash, Force Pulse, and Elemental Weapon. Even then when you punch in the numbers your sustain would be better if you just dumped vampire entirely.

Jameson18 · October 2020

It's generally unusable on a necromancer. Mender and Syphon do not work during mist form or frenzy. A bit counter-productive.

Jameson18 · October 2020

Also, I question whether undeath is actually functioning. If not doing the opposite.

Vevvev · October 2020

Jameson18 wrote: »

Also, I question whether undeath is actually functioning. If not doing the opposite.

I've done a lot of testing and it works just fine. Problem is I don't know when its doing its damage reduction calculation so I have no idea how effective it really is. All I know is the lower my health goes the less damage I take and technically at 50% health its supposed to be 15% damage reduction. When you actually think about it 15% is a very small number which is why some people think it doesn't work.

Vayln_Ninetails · October 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

Also, I question whether undeath is actually functioning. If not doing the opposite.

I've done a lot of testing and it works just fine. Problem is I don't know when its doing its damage reduction calculation so I have no idea how effective it really is. All I know is the lower my health goes the less damage I take and technically at 50% health its supposed to be 15% damage reduction. When you actually think about it 15% is a very small number which is why some people think it doesn't work.

One thing I was hoping they'd add in with the vamp rework was a VISUAL indicator that a vampire was using undeath. And maybe the indicator changes based upon how many resistances they are getting.

Vevvev · October 2020

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

Also, I question whether undeath is actually functioning. If not doing the opposite.

I've done a lot of testing and it works just fine. Problem is I don't know when its doing its damage reduction calculation so I have no idea how effective it really is. All I know is the lower my health goes the less damage I take and technically at 50% health its supposed to be 15% damage reduction. When you actually think about it 15% is a very small number which is why some people think it doesn't work.

One thing I was hoping they'd add in with the vamp rework was a VISUAL indicator that a vampire was using undeath. And maybe the indicator changes based upon how many resistances they are getting.

Uhhhhh.... Then my character in the Open World would always be glowing at max intensity

YandereGirlfriend · October 2020

There morph choices for most of the vampire skills are largely redundant and could easily be merged in order to create room for some of the popular requests (e.g. gap-closer, unique DoT, party heal, etc.) that would help to fill in the blank spots in the sub-class toolkit.

Have Blood for Blood scale with highest stats (so usable for Stamina vampires).
Make Arterial Burst ranged and scale with highest stats (so usable for ranged classes and Stamina vampires).
Keep Sated Fury as-is.
Turn Simmering Frenzy into a Ring of the Pale Order-like group heal that heals allies in range for a % of your total damage dealt (gives healers an option from the class).
Keep Exhilarating Drain as-is.
Make Drain Vigor into a class DoT that behaves like Soul Trap and does either Bleed or Magic Damage depending upon which stats are highest (fills in DPS toolkit and allows Stamina vampires to use it as well).
Turn Hypnosis into a Turn Evil clone (unblockable, AoE stun) that applies an additional de-buff if the targets are facing you.
Make Stupefy into either the bat-cloud gap-closer that NPC vampires use or a teleport/blink ability or a bat-swarm version of Streak (provides mobility for PvP).
Give Mist Form Minor Expedition as part of the base morph or provide Minor Expedition via the Unnatural Movement passive.
Make Blood Mist scale with stats and do either Bleed or Magic Damage (again, so Stamina vampires can use it).

Bing-bam-boom we now have a feature-complete vampire sub-class that provides basically all essential functions and, most importantly, takes basically nothing away from anybody who currently enjoys the skills. All current skills retain a morph of essentially unchanged or improved utility while using the recycled morphs to fill in the overall class kit.

The Ultimate is omitted because I don't use it and thus have no real insights into it.