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Why wasn't vampire touched at all during this patch?

  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Can we stop talking about minorities here and get to the root of the problem?

    Love it or hate it vampire is a subclass due to the way ZOS set it up. Like werewolf some classes do NOT synch with it as well as we want it to, and the vampire playstyle is heavily based around stealth, being injured, and staying injured.

    Vampiric Drain after lots of testing I realized was doing its job as the devs intended. We want a reliable heal out of Drain but that's not what it is. Drain is designed to give you more health to spend, but not bring you to full health so your spammable deal more damage. Drain works with Vampire's current game design, but Vampire's design does NOT work with the mechanics of this game.

    In PVP we have these abilities called Executes. The moment you get into Execution range these abilities begin to deal exponentially more damage to the point they can finish you off in a single swing. Due to the presence of these abilities it forces PVPers to continuously heal themselves to stay out of execute range. Vampires only begin to get very powerful below 50% health which is where the execute range on many such abilities begins.

    In PVE Tank and Healers need abilities that aid their group or their own survival. Vampire offers survival tools in the form of Undeath and Mistform but ultimately these are of no good to a healer or DPS since the boss will one shot them anyway. It also lacks group synergies and other forms of group support making it not worthwhile. Why you see healers and some tanks staying stage 1. Another issue vampires have is the fact in trials and dungeons if they use abilities like Blood for Blood they alienate themselves from the group by making it impossible for healers to save them. Had anyone been using Blood Frenzy in my veteran hardmode Depths of Malatar run tonight we wouldn't have made it out alive.

    Vampire does not fit into the game very well, and while it can be incredibly powerful in the right hands, they are sacrificing a lot when there are more viable alternatives at hand. With all vampire abilities I can hit 50k DPS and with all normal abilities I can also hit 50k DPS. This is mostly due to my skill as a player since I struggle with my rotations, but if I was to cure vampirisim I could improve my sustain and not have to worry as much about it.

    This is ultimately the issue with vampire. We sacrifice sustain, make ourselves more susceptible to flame and fighter's guild abilities, and have lower or even no health regeneration for a set of abilities that standard class and weapon skills outperform. If ZOS buffed these abilities to be comparable or even just slightly outperform standard abilities then the skill line would be more balanced and threads like these would begin to die off.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    This is ultimately the issue with vampire. We sacrifice sustain, make ourselves more susceptible to flame and fighter's guild abilities, and have lower or even no health regeneration for a set of abilities that standard class and weapon skills outperform. If ZOS buffed these abilities to be comparable or even just slightly outperform standard abilities then the skill line would be more balanced and threads like these would begin to die off.


    So much this. I suppose the reason why I result to talking about minority opinion vs majority opinion is because even after many people have explained the issue, there still are some that for some reason don't believe we have vampire's best interest in heart. As you can imagine, it gets very tiring after a while. Anyways, moving on from that though.


    I do appreciate your post though and I agree with it entirely. The current iteration of vampire just does not fit with the current game mechanics. All ZOS has to do is just make these current abilities viable or make a couple swap-ins for some NPC abilities (like the much needed gap closer or the conjurable bat swarm AoE) and people would love the skill line. These complaint threads would cease to exist.

    At the end of the day we all just want a better vampire because we enjoy playing vampire and love them. These aren't just complaint threads whining about the lack of free stuff, they are usually made by passionate actual vampire fans who are just let down by the current state of things.





  • ManM
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    I understand that a significant number of people are happy they no longer have to subject their character to vampirism to be optimal. I believe that goal could have been accomplished without the negative issues people have identified, which would have made many more people happy.

    As it currently stands, I am left playing a "vampire" character with no need to drink blood. I believe that the requirement to drink blood to thrive is pretty much at the top of the list for any vampiric concept, yet this rework completely changed that.

    So, regardless of concerns about the viability of the skills at end-game, the fact that the rework fails to match the most basic and fundamental principle of what vampirism means is a far bigger issue for me.

    Just let it sink in. In ESO, you are a "vampire" that doesn't have to drink blood. Can anyone really defend that as making any sense at all?
    Edited by ManM on October 16, 2020 10:18AM
  • wheem_ESO
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    ManM wrote: »
    Just let it sink in. In ESO, you are a "vampire" that doesn't have to drink blood. Can anyone really defend that as making any sense at all?
    I think the defense of that would be avoiding tedium. That said, they could potentially get around some sort of annoying "need" to drink blood by having the Vampire skills fill that role (assuming that they were actually worth using). I don't want to constantly have to interrupt my PvP'ing to track down some NPCs to feed on, but if Vampire Drain were actually worth using, and could fulfill that role while I was playing the part of the game that I like, that would be just fine.
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    ManM wrote: »
    Just let it sink in. In ESO, you are a "vampire" that doesn't have to drink blood. Can anyone really defend that as making any sense at all?
    I think the defense of that would be avoiding tedium. That said, they could potentially get around some sort of annoying "need" to drink blood by having the Vampire skills fill that role (assuming that they were actually worth using). I don't want to constantly have to interrupt my PvP'ing to track down some NPCs to feed on, but if Vampire Drain were actually worth using, and could fulfill that role while I was playing the part of the game that I like, that would be just fine.

    Big agree! Some suggestions have also said that Vampiric Drain should add time onto your blood scion form too.
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    ManM wrote: »
    I understand that a significant number of people are happy they no longer have to subject their character to vampirism to be optimal. I believe that goal could have been accomplished without the negative issues people have identified, which would have made many more people happy.

    Exactly. And to be frank, even those that have negative issues with the skill line are glad that vampire isn't optimal. None of the people doing the complaining wanted it to be optimal, we just wanted it to be a viable play style similar to werewolf.

    Instead we got a boat load of negative issues....which is where people are unhappy.

    There certainly was a way to please many, many more people here.
  • MrZeDark
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    So interesting..

    I love the new vampire abilities, truly. Especially Simmering Frenzy.
  • Sephyr
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    This is ultimately the issue with vampire. We sacrifice sustain, make ourselves more susceptible to flame and fighter's guild abilities, and have lower or even no health regeneration for a set of abilities that standard class and weapon skills outperform. If ZOS buffed these abilities to be comparable or even just slightly outperform standard abilities then the skill line would be more balanced and threads like these would begin to die off.


    So much this. I suppose the reason why I result to talking about minority opinion vs majority opinion is because even after many people have explained the issue, there still are some that for some reason don't believe we have vampire's best interest in heart. As you can imagine, it gets very tiring after a while. Anyways, moving on from that though.


    I do appreciate your post though and I agree with it entirely. The current iteration of vampire just does not fit with the current game mechanics. All ZOS has to do is just make these current abilities viable or make a couple swap-ins for some NPC abilities (like the much needed gap closer or the conjurable bat swarm AoE) and people would love the skill line. These complaint threads would cease to exist.

    At the end of the day we all just want a better vampire because we enjoy playing vampire and love them. These aren't just complaint threads whining about the lack of free stuff, they are usually made by passionate actual vampire fans who are just let down by the current state of things.

    I'd also like to mention I've been in the threads from the start as well. A lot of us have had the same arguments coming from different people and it's almost easier to not engage with them because I genuinely feel they're not reading the content of the threads. No matter how hard we try to get them to realize something, it's their experience and we can't take that away from them. Unfortunately I've mostly given up considering that Gina didn't showcase a single ability in the Revamp stream, nor take any questions that weren't mount related in the chat. Which said to me that this is probably going to be how things are for the foreseeable future. It was rather a defeating moment.

    That being said though, there's a lot that @Vevvev mentions that hits home. Especially with the bit that "Vampire doesn't fit in the game very well", and that got me thinking about how much is lacking as a whole in terms of vampiric identity. We're vampires, why are we still not able to engage properly as a vampire? We don't even heal when we feed. The regeneration debuff thing is just... Excessive. There's more risks than there are rewards and the gimmicks that the line has to offer are often shadowed by the overwhelming detrimental effects. And that's where we get into the issue of balancing. This is something that ZoS unfortunately has a difficult time keeping a hand on. It may look fine on the spreadsheet, but the data only shows numbers and not how it actually feels in the game. Also, Mesmerize still needs to be fixed as you can't use it on the Solitude Bankers nor many of the bag upgrade merchants across Tamriel. That further adds to the lack of consistency with the line and just makes it clunky to use. I understand that some people like it, but there's some glaring issues with the line and they haven't really been all that transparent on how they've handled it so far. I would genuinely love for Lambert to answer the question on why Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of being a vampire so we can get further insight on that as well. Sadly, that'll never get answered.
  • ManM
    ManM
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    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    ManM wrote: »
    Just let it sink in. In ESO, you are a "vampire" that doesn't have to drink blood. Can anyone really defend that as making any sense at all?
    I think the defense of that would be avoiding tedium. That said, they could potentially get around some sort of annoying "need" to drink blood by having the Vampire skills fill that role (assuming that they were actually worth using). I don't want to constantly have to interrupt my PvP'ing to track down some NPCs to feed on, but if Vampire Drain were actually worth using, and could fulfill that role while I was playing the part of the game that I like, that would be just fine.

    That particular tedium is the fundamental conflict a vampire is supposed to be faced with though, and the way they handle it defines their character. This is true for every vampire in the game, except for a player infected with "vampirism". It's a jarring disconnect.

    In game mechanics, yes, there are absolutely ways that a proper vampiric thirst could be sated outside of feeding on NPCs, and drain seems like a perfect candidate to provide that sense of quenching the need for blood. I've argued that drain be given the property of an execute for that very reason, and a kill secured with drain could conceivably be used to interact with the vampire stage timer.

    Unfortunately, it appears that the development cycle for the vampire skill line has ended, and we are left with an experience that is more suited for academic case studies in design choices where game mechanics drastically diverge from lore. They really are trapped with it as well, as the rework was built on a fundamental flaw in core design. Truly fixing it won't be as trivial as tweaking a skill value here or there.

  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    MrZeDark wrote: »
    So interesting..

    I love the new vampire abilities, truly. Especially Simmering Frenzy.

    How? Why do you love a suicide button with barely any animations and provides very little functionality? And gives just raw stats in a very uncreative and tedious way?
    Edited by Vayln_Ninetails on October 16, 2020 2:17PM
  • craybest
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    people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    craybest wrote: »
    people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....

    Werewolf has been good since wolfhunter though? Some would argue maybe too good during some patches.

    And werewolf was ALWAYS better design wise than vampire because vampire was taken back then just for the regen passive. The actual ability play style of werewolf beat vampire's pathetic 3 abilities. Only time I'd say vamp was on par with Werewolf ability wise was when mistform gave a 70% unique speed boost and when ultimate wasn't capped and you could spam bats.

    I dont think you should count anything afterwards though because people were taking vamp for the wrong reasons when things became about the regen passive. Where as werewolf has always been a semi-viable play style that was made even better with wolfhunter.

    Edited by Vayln_Ninetails on October 16, 2020 2:25PM
  • daemondamian
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    I started off trying multiple vampire skills on my toons that are vampires after the last rework but now I only use 1: Swarming Scion - it's like a poor man's Goliath or DK Magma shell that often comes quite in handy given I solo a lot.

    I also started a magblade character specifically to be a hardcore vampire using multiple vampire skills but now he's almost exactly the same as the vampire magblade character I already had just his appearance looks best as a stage 4 vamp.

    Oh ok there's also the stage 4 invisible sprinting thing that I found useful in Cyrodiil & in other situations.
  • Ryuvain
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    craybest wrote: »
    people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....

    Werewolf has been good since wolfhunter though? Some would argue maybe too good during some patches.

    And werewolf was ALWAYS better design wise than vampire because vampire was taken back then just for the regen passive. The actual ability play style of werewolf beat vampire's pathetic 3 abilities. Only time I'd say vamp was on par with Werewolf ability wise was when mistform gave a 70% unique speed boost and when ultimate wasn't capped and you could spam bats.

    I dont think you should count anything afterwards though because people were taking vamp for the wrong reasons when things became about the regen passive. Where as werewolf has always been a semi-viable play style that was made even better with wolfhunter.

    I'm on the side of wanting vamp buffs, but this isn't true. Werewolf wasn't viable after their nerf for a very long time. Only this patch is where they have been seen again.

    Werewolves were always kicked or looked down upon for so long, and now that vamps need help I'm there. But that viability statement is so wrong.
    That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
    Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.
  • Sephyr
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    craybest wrote: »
    people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....

    But the problem isn't vampires vs. werewolves or vice versa. The problem is the clear disconnect ZoS has with both of these skill lines, the identity of them, and how both perform in tandem. We can't balance the two along with one another because the mechanics of both are vastly different. When werewolf underperformed, I was right there for my bite guilds to support them through dungeons and raids because they couldn't find reliable groups to run with due to being a werewolf and I encouraged solely vamp players to roll a werewolf. I would help them brainstorm, work numbers, grind sets. Not all of us want to stick it to werewolves. Both should be just as valid of a playstyle as the other. Not one or the other. The more we dabble in the latter, the more that ZoS's disconnect with these lines will be because both sides will forever be bitter and jaded to work with one another.
    Edited by Sephyr on October 16, 2020 3:29PM
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    Ryuvain wrote: »
    craybest wrote: »
    people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....

    Werewolf has been good since wolfhunter though? Some would argue maybe too good during some patches.

    And werewolf was ALWAYS better design wise than vampire because vampire was taken back then just for the regen passive. The actual ability play style of werewolf beat vampire's pathetic 3 abilities. Only time I'd say vamp was on par with Werewolf ability wise was when mistform gave a 70% unique speed boost and when ultimate wasn't capped and you could spam bats.

    I dont think you should count anything afterwards though because people were taking vamp for the wrong reasons when things became about the regen passive. Where as werewolf has always been a semi-viable play style that was made even better with wolfhunter.

    I'm on the side of wanting vamp buffs, but this isn't true. Werewolf wasn't viable after their nerf for a very long time. Only this patch is where they have been seen again.

    Werewolves were always kicked or looked down upon for so long, and now that vamps need help I'm there. But that viability statement is so wrong.

    Thought werewolves were semi-viable after wolfhunter. That is my bad, then.

    The design statement I feel still stands though.
    Edited by Vayln_Ninetails on October 16, 2020 10:14PM
  • JMadFour
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    I haven't been around for a bit.

    I take it Vampires are still basically unhealable in group play?

    I can't see how anyone would be happy with that.
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    JMadFour wrote: »
    I haven't been around for a bit.

    I take it Vampires are still basically unhealable in group play?

    I can't see how anyone would be happy with that.

    Correct. They are completely unviable for group play.
  • Vevvev
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    JMadFour wrote: »
    I haven't been around for a bit.

    I take it Vampires are still basically unhealable in group play?

    I can't see how anyone would be happy with that.

    Yep, they still have the three abilities that lock them out of healing. Mistform, Blood Frenzy, and Blood for Blood.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • DT-ARR
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    All they need to do is scale the abilities based on stage.

    Ex. Bfb stage 1 deals x dmg. Bfb stage 2 deals x1.25. Stage 3 deals x1.5. Stage 4 deals x1.5 and adds a life steal dot.

    This is nothing but an off the top scenario. Literally it could be anything.

    The point though...just give people a Real reason to advance in stage...while at the same time making it viable to those that commit.
  • Daemonai
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    @Vayln_Ninetails @Nova_J

    I state my opinion in threads like this because game forums tend to aggregate negative opinions; people who enjoy the game aren't complaining on the forums, they are in-game enjoying their free time. ZoS needs to know of the people who like the redesign and well as those who don't so that whatever changes they do make are measured by the totality of opinions, not just the loudest.

    Btw, you are not the majority just because you keep repeating it. As for minority, I would say the true minority are the malcontents complaining about trivialities like vampires not having to feed to not die, and the nebulous "vampiric themes" that no three players can even agree what those are or should be and are probably directly contradictory to what another group of player wants. Most players just don't give af, have moved on and/or will adapt. <---That's the majority

    Cheers!
    Edited by Daemonai on October 17, 2020 9:07AM
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    Daemonai wrote: »
    @Vayln_Ninetails @Nova_J

    I state my opinion in threads like this because game forums tend to aggregate negative opinions; people who enjoy the game aren't complaining on the forums, they are in-game enjoying their free time. ZoS needs to know of the people who like the redesign and well as those who don't so that whatever changes they do make are measured by the totality of opinions, not just the loudest.

    Btw, you are not the majority just because you keep repeating it. As for minority, I would say the true minority are the malcontents complaining about trivialities like vampires not having to feed to not die, and the nebulous "vampiric themes" that no three players can even agree what those are or should be and are probably directly contradictory to what another group of player wants. Most players just don't give af, have moved on and/or will adapt. <---That's the majority

    Cheers!

    The absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence I'm afraid, @Daemonai. The only statistic we can go off of is the people on the forums complaining and what many of us have witnessed **in game**. That said, what do you say to that? The people who complain and say they've witnessed bad experiences other players have had with vampire first hand?

    And according to what we can see at face value, we are the majority. Are you suggesting that ZoS not listen to the majority of feedback they receive on the forums and should assume with every change that "well, those people are just being loud. Surely there's a lot more that enjoy x change that simply dont have the time to post." That's a dangerous line of thought and if practiced would lead to no changes being made on player behalf. The entire feedback portion of the forums would become pointless.

    But as @Sephyr said in the other thread; keep projecting your lies. It isn't just me repeating myself. Look at this thread, do you see only me responding?


    And I do surely hope they work on the majority of feedback! Just like you said. Which again, unfortunately is people being unhappy with the design. I'm sorry but that is what they are getting feedback about. Genuinely not a single thread exists praising the new vampire. And I can tell you right now it isn't because people are out picking daisies and enjoying the line.

    And as to yout statement saying no three players can agree what the mising vampire themes are, I IMPLORE you to look around at any of these threads. You'll find many people agreeing on what is missing from vampire in regards to themes. It isn't that hard to find, you saying such proves to me you don't read any of these threads. Nobody is confused about what themes the vampire rework lacks lol.

    And once again I ask: what do you lose out of vampire being made better and getting more vampiric? Aside from the fact you'd be wrong?

    I hope this message finds you well! Cheers!
    Edited by Vayln_Ninetails on October 17, 2020 3:38PM
  • Daemonai
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    @Vayln_Ninetails

    And what themes would those be because they are conspicuously absent from your opening post? Within the many threads on Vampires, players can't even agree whether they want Vampires to need to feed to survive/progress or not. After years of bagging on the old Vampire drain, some players are now nostalgic for it. Players hated that Vampire was mandatory for every build, and now players hate that it is not. Some players want stamina morphs for Vampire abilities, others say that conflicts with the class design. You think there is a consensus on what players want from Vampires, but I promise there are people who want the exact opposite of what you want and ZOS has to perform the unenviable task of trying to mesh conflicting desires in a way that makes everyone happy...and everyone is never happy.

    My initial post was to simply serve as a counterbalance to the naysayers to hopefully mitigate any wild changes to Vampires, because, as I Implied, I think they have a good base that needs some minor tweaking.

    And of course, player feedback should be considered. In fact, ZOS has a peculiar habit of giving players exactly what they ask for which (surprise!) oftentimes leads to busted/broken item sets and classes that are either made useless—after which a silent, content group rises up to loudly voice their displeasure and ask for the changes to be reverted—or they are made so OP that they need to be nerfed the next cycle because players don't take power budgets and balance into consideration. Or ZOS goes and does whatever they want, regardless of opinion; minority, majority, or otherwise. For all you know, you might get a kiss curse you never wanted. But it is what it is.

    I am well, hope you are too. Cheers!
    Edited by Daemonai on October 17, 2020 6:00PM
  • Vayln_Ninetails
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    Daemonai wrote: »
    @Vayln_Ninetails

    And what themes would those be because they are conspicuously absent from your opening post? Within the many threads on Vampires, players can't even agree whether they want Vampires to need to feed to survive/progress or not. After years of bagging on the old Vampire drain, some players are now nostalgic for it. Players hated that Vampire was mandatory for every build, and now players hate that it is not. Some players want stamina morphs for Vampire abilities, others say that conflicts with the class design. You think there is a consensus on what players want from Vampires, but I promise there are people who want the exact opposite of what you want and ZoS has to perform the unenviable task of trying to mesh conflicting desires in a way that makes everyone happy...and everyone is never happy.

    My initial post was to simply serve as a counterbalance to the naysayers to hopefully mitigate any wild changes to Vampires, because, as I Implied, I think they have a good base that needs some minor tweaking.

    And of course, player feedback should be considered. In fact, ZoS has a peculiar habit of giving players exactly what they ask for which (surprise!) oftentimes leads to busted/broken item sets and classes that are either made useless—after which a silent, content group rises up to loudly voice their displeasure and ask for the changes to be reverted—or they are made so OP that they need to be nerfed the next cycle because players don't take power budgets and balance into consideration. Or ZoS goes and does whatever they want, regardless of opinion; minority, majority, or otherwise. For all you know, you might get a kiss curse you never wanted. But it is what it is.

    I am well, hope you are too. Cheers!

    The themes people can agree vampire is lacking:

    Bats, life-steal, mobility, blood magic, long-range spell casting, AoE damage outside of ultimate, and the lack of vampire-lord-like stuff (aka the ultimate is very lack-luster), etc.

    The themes people dislike about current vampire: The weird play style of secluding yourself from group-play despite practically all vampires we fight in the wild work in groups and are not solo. We play more like a bloodfiend, but even those run in packs. Our abilities do not tie into the vampire NPCs, causing a break of immersion. People do not enjoy the 'being at low health = more damage' play style. Blood Frenzy is a bad ability and should be replaced with a proper bat-themed one. (There is some differing opinions on this one, but most can agree that if these people enjoy blood frenzy then they'd enjoy a more complex, vampiric-themed ability that provides even more fun stuff to work with than a boring suicide toggle. It is a hard pill to swallow for them, but the pay-off is there.) Lastly, another reason why people hate Blood FRenzy is because in the vampire rework trailer the creative director says 'blood frenzy is a perfect example of what it means to be a vampire in ES,' yet literally NO other vampire in the entire universe drains their own HP for a pitiful amount of damage. Vampires are supposed to be cautious about dying because if they die their soul goes directly to molag bal for some after-life-torture fun. It literally breaks the lore to have 'blood frenzy' be the flagship skill for the skill line. Another common compromise for this that blood-frenzy lovers tend to accept is: Tossing the spell/weapon damage bonus of say, 700-ish onto the scion form. 'while you're in this form you get 700 extra spell/weapon damage.'

    And all posts I've seen have agreed upon vampires needing to feed to be stronger. As it stands we get weaker when we feed, much like the old skill line. I will say that you are right about the issue with stam abilities vs not, and the compromise I usually see with these people is if Eviscerate gets a morph that scales off of your highest stat in damage and is melee meanwhile the other morph makes it a long range blood bolt that scales purely off magicka.

    Players hated that vampire was mandatory, yes, but NOBODY misses that it isn't mandatory. You're wrong there. People hate that it simply isn't a viable play style. Take Werewolf for instance. It isn't mandatory. But guess what it provides? A unique viable play style that even encourages group play.

    There is an over all consensus on what the 'naysayers' want from vampire and I've best summarized it right here for you. There are some differences here and there, but you have to admit we all have the same common goal: We want vampire to be made better and more fun for people who enjoy being vampires. The people doing the most complaining are, you guessed it, vampire fans. Not min-maxers, not top tier trial players, literally just people wanting to play as an ES vampire. But they find this new iteration to be lacking and not living up to what was promised when they mentioned the rework.
    Edited by Vayln_Ninetails on October 17, 2020 6:10PM
  • Sephyr
    Sephyr
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    Some other things to consider in this discussion is that just because there's different opinions on how the line should be changed doesn't mean that we don't agree with each other. Most of those threads are, in fact, brainstorming threads if one actually reads them. Have discussions in the past got heated? Very rarely. Even then, most of the time it's someone coming in saying that vampire is actually good and that it has 'all the themes'. When asked, they're surprisingly quite mum when confronted about the lack of the following;
    • Why doesn't the player get healed when feeding?
    • Why did they remove the ability to bite enemy players in PvP that encouraged hunting players down in the Imperial City Sewers? Especially in groups (because vampires do hunt in numbers too y'know).
    • Why did they remove the gap closer that we had with Clouding Swarm?
    • Where's the versatility between Stamina and Magicka?
    • Why are we punished for trying to engage in the line/trying to play as a vampire? IE; Feeding. People still stay around Stage 1-2 for those passive benefits, JUST like people did with Supernatural Recovery (which is why the 'regen' argument doesn't work).
    • Why on NIRN are we using Health to deal damage, yet everything scales on magicka? Shouldn't it scale with your highest stat?
    • This goes for both Werewolves and Vampires; Why isn't there ANY hubs for either that isn't a shrine or the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, and why haven't we gotten any dailies for either? Rampages in towns. Kills in Werewolf/Blood Scion form. A weekly quest that rewards you for biting other players. Stuff like that also promotes the identity of the line, believe it or not. As it stands, the Justice System isn't threatening at all--even when it was bugged out and you'd randomly get a bounty for no reason at all.
    • What exactly is box-ticking about Blood Frenzy and how does it work lore-wise with other games of the franchise?

    We're not looking for meta cheese. We're not looking for special treatment. We're looking for group viability and actual Vampiric identity here, which no one that's came into the majority of these threads can quite explain where it is and explain why these things are missing along with many others. Magblade plays more like a vampire than Vampire. If Lamae Bal was my progenitor with what was live? I'd stake her myself for ruining her own bloodline.
  • Vayln_Ninetails
    Vayln_Ninetails
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    Sephyr wrote: »
    Some other things to consider in this discussion is that just because there's different opinions on how the line should be changed doesn't mean that we don't agree with each other. Most of those threads are, in fact, brainstorming threads if one actually reads them. Have discussions in the past got heated? Very rarely. Even then, most of the time it's someone coming in saying that vampire is actually good and that it has 'all the themes'. When asked, they're surprisingly quite mum when confronted about the lack of the following;
    • Why doesn't the player get healed when feeding?
    • Why did they remove the ability to bite enemy players in PvP that encouraged hunting players down in the Imperial City Sewers? Especially in groups (because vampires do hunt in numbers too y'know).
    • Why did they remove the gap closer that we had with Clouding Swarm?
    • Where's the versatility between Stamina and Magicka?
    • Why are we punished for trying to engage in the line/trying to play as a vampire? IE; Feeding. People still stay around Stage 1-2 for those passive benefits, JUST like people did with Supernatural Recovery (which is why the 'regen' argument doesn't work).
    • Why on NIRN are we using Health to deal damage, yet everything scales on magicka? Shouldn't it scale with your highest stat?
    • This goes for both Werewolves and Vampires; Why isn't there ANY hubs for either that isn't a shrine or the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, and why haven't we gotten any dailies for either? Rampages in towns. Kills in Werewolf/Blood Scion form. A weekly quest that rewards you for biting other players. Stuff like that also promotes the identity of the line, believe it or not. As it stands, the Justice System isn't threatening at all--even when it was bugged out and you'd randomly get a bounty for no reason at all.
    • What exactly is box-ticking about Blood Frenzy and how does it work lore-wise with other games of the franchise?

    We're not looking for meta cheese. We're not looking for special treatment. We're looking for group viability and actual Vampiric identity here, which no one that's came into the majority of these threads can quite explain where it is and explain why these things are missing along with many others. Magblade plays more like a vampire than Vampire. If Lamae Bal was my progenitor with what was live? I'd stake her myself for ruining her own bloodline.

    Exactly. One thing I see very rarely acknowledged by people who like the current iteration of vampire is how absolutely lore breaking the play style currently is. This 'staying at low hp to deal more damage' is not present in ANY other vampire in the entire franchise. In fact, it goes against the very lore that has been established for years in ES.

    Vampires do NOT want to sacrifice their own life essence for power. That goes against what a vampire is in ES. They literally want to absorb the life force and power from others and want to basically stay as far away from death as possible. Want to know why? Because if they die they go directly to Molag Bal. There is no reason for a vampire to want to go into a 'blood frenzy' unless said vampire is indeed a bloodfiend, not an actual vampire.


    Also how contradictory the Scion form is with ZoS's reasoning as to why we can't be a vampire lord. Their logic was: Vampire lord is too mythical to be used by us, the single player/vestige. Yet....they design an iteration of vampire that is UNIQUE and specific to just the vestige. Therefore becoming in its own way mythical. In fact, we fight more vampire lords in ESO than Blood Scions. Which literally means that if we could turn into vampire lords, we'd be less mythical than a blood scion. They also forget that we can join the pysijic order. You know, the most legendary order of mages ever that can literally control time and historical events in Elder Scrolls. They are arguably more mythical than vampire lords, yet we got a player-version of their line that stays within established lore. Why can't they do this for vampire lords?

  • JMadFour
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    Personally, I liked most if not all of the Greymoor changes. I was really enjoying my Vampire for a time, really getting into the concept.

    What set me off, and led me to quit this game for quite a while, is them making my favorite character type basically unusable in Group Play by making us virtually unhealable 80% of the time. I made a whole thread about it in this very forum, and it looks as if what I predicted came true.

    So, I would settle, at this point, for not being an auto-kick when I join a group. and as a Vampire Main, I would auto-kick me too. Literally just for being a Vampire, because a character who can't be healed by the group healer is a hindrance to the group.

    Period.
    Edited by JMadFour on October 19, 2020 2:02AM
  • DT-ARR
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    I maintain that the best way to fix vamps is to scale the abilities with stage increase, not just the passives.

    Is this something beyond ZOS technical ability to do?

    Or am i just that out of touch...
  • Daemonai
    Daemonai
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    Exactly. One thing I see very rarely acknowledged by people who like the current iteration of vampire is how absolutely lore breaking the play style currently is.

    That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.

    On themes, you say you'd like Vampires to have more, "bats, life-steal, mobility, blood magic, long-range spell casting, AoE damage..." I'd say the skill line already has most of those themes. But I'm curious, how many more of the 5 vampire abilities do you think should be devoted to bats? To fully incorporate all the themes you'd like, ZOS would likely need to add more abilities, which probably isn't going to happen.

    I feel that a lot of the discussion around Vampires has devolved into people venting about Vampire not adhering to their own personal aesthetic rather than if the skill line actually works as is. IMO, Vampire does work, just not as well as it should, which unsurprisingly is because of player feedback; Vampire worked much better with the 40% ability cost decrease, but players complained.

    My hope is ZOS takes the Vampire line and refines it so it's functional foremost, everything else should be secondary.
    Edited by Daemonai on October 20, 2020 10:29PM
  • ManM
    ManM
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    Daemonai wrote: »
    That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.

    The problem is that words and concepts do mean things. When we are talking about a "vampire" that has no actual need to drink blood, and who actually gets significantly weaker when they do drink blood, there is huge disconnect between the concept of a vampire and what was delivered. Much like people protested about vampires that sparkle in the sunlight, there are equally valid protests about "vampires" that don't need to drink blood.

    Even the dialog Lamae uses indicates that her scions are supposed to get stronger by feeding, but the in game play experience is precisely the opposite of the in game lore. I understand that some people simply don't care about such things, but I believe a fair amount of people do.

    When your stated design goal is to promote the behavior of a vampire regularly feeding, and then you release a skill line that punishes players for regularly feeding, there is a problem.
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