This is ultimately the issue with vampire. We sacrifice sustain, make ourselves more susceptible to flame and fighter's guild abilities, and have lower or even no health regeneration for a set of abilities that standard class and weapon skills outperform. If ZOS buffed these abilities to be comparable or even just slightly outperform standard abilities then the skill line would be more balanced and threads like these would begin to die off.
I think the defense of that would be avoiding tedium. That said, they could potentially get around some sort of annoying "need" to drink blood by having the Vampire skills fill that role (assuming that they were actually worth using). I don't want to constantly have to interrupt my PvP'ing to track down some NPCs to feed on, but if Vampire Drain were actually worth using, and could fulfill that role while I was playing the part of the game that I like, that would be just fine.Just let it sink in. In ESO, you are a "vampire" that doesn't have to drink blood. Can anyone really defend that as making any sense at all?
I think the defense of that would be avoiding tedium. That said, they could potentially get around some sort of annoying "need" to drink blood by having the Vampire skills fill that role (assuming that they were actually worth using). I don't want to constantly have to interrupt my PvP'ing to track down some NPCs to feed on, but if Vampire Drain were actually worth using, and could fulfill that role while I was playing the part of the game that I like, that would be just fine.Just let it sink in. In ESO, you are a "vampire" that doesn't have to drink blood. Can anyone really defend that as making any sense at all?
I understand that a significant number of people are happy they no longer have to subject their character to vampirism to be optimal. I believe that goal could have been accomplished without the negative issues people have identified, which would have made many more people happy.
Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »This is ultimately the issue with vampire. We sacrifice sustain, make ourselves more susceptible to flame and fighter's guild abilities, and have lower or even no health regeneration for a set of abilities that standard class and weapon skills outperform. If ZOS buffed these abilities to be comparable or even just slightly outperform standard abilities then the skill line would be more balanced and threads like these would begin to die off.
So much this. I suppose the reason why I result to talking about minority opinion vs majority opinion is because even after many people have explained the issue, there still are some that for some reason don't believe we have vampire's best interest in heart. As you can imagine, it gets very tiring after a while. Anyways, moving on from that though.
I do appreciate your post though and I agree with it entirely. The current iteration of vampire just does not fit with the current game mechanics. All ZOS has to do is just make these current abilities viable or make a couple swap-ins for some NPC abilities (like the much needed gap closer or the conjurable bat swarm AoE) and people would love the skill line. These complaint threads would cease to exist.
At the end of the day we all just want a better vampire because we enjoy playing vampire and love them. These aren't just complaint threads whining about the lack of free stuff, they are usually made by passionate actual vampire fans who are just let down by the current state of things.
I think the defense of that would be avoiding tedium. That said, they could potentially get around some sort of annoying "need" to drink blood by having the Vampire skills fill that role (assuming that they were actually worth using). I don't want to constantly have to interrupt my PvP'ing to track down some NPCs to feed on, but if Vampire Drain were actually worth using, and could fulfill that role while I was playing the part of the game that I like, that would be just fine.Just let it sink in. In ESO, you are a "vampire" that doesn't have to drink blood. Can anyone really defend that as making any sense at all?
So interesting..
I love the new vampire abilities, truly. Especially Simmering Frenzy.
people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....
Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....
Werewolf has been good since wolfhunter though? Some would argue maybe too good during some patches.
And werewolf was ALWAYS better design wise than vampire because vampire was taken back then just for the regen passive. The actual ability play style of werewolf beat vampire's pathetic 3 abilities. Only time I'd say vamp was on par with Werewolf ability wise was when mistform gave a 70% unique speed boost and when ultimate wasn't capped and you could spam bats.
I dont think you should count anything afterwards though because people were taking vamp for the wrong reasons when things became about the regen passive. Where as werewolf has always been a semi-viable play style that was made even better with wolfhunter.
people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....
Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »people quickly forget how much werewolf sucked during years meanwhile everyone was a vampire. now that the tables are changed just for a short time they're complaining....
Werewolf has been good since wolfhunter though? Some would argue maybe too good during some patches.
And werewolf was ALWAYS better design wise than vampire because vampire was taken back then just for the regen passive. The actual ability play style of werewolf beat vampire's pathetic 3 abilities. Only time I'd say vamp was on par with Werewolf ability wise was when mistform gave a 70% unique speed boost and when ultimate wasn't capped and you could spam bats.
I dont think you should count anything afterwards though because people were taking vamp for the wrong reasons when things became about the regen passive. Where as werewolf has always been a semi-viable play style that was made even better with wolfhunter.
I'm on the side of wanting vamp buffs, but this isn't true. Werewolf wasn't viable after their nerf for a very long time. Only this patch is where they have been seen again.
Werewolves were always kicked or looked down upon for so long, and now that vamps need help I'm there. But that viability statement is so wrong.
I haven't been around for a bit.
I take it Vampires are still basically unhealable in group play?
I can't see how anyone would be happy with that.
@Vayln_Ninetails @Nova_J
I state my opinion in threads like this because game forums tend to aggregate negative opinions; people who enjoy the game aren't complaining on the forums, they are in-game enjoying their free time. ZoS needs to know of the people who like the redesign and well as those who don't so that whatever changes they do make are measured by the totality of opinions, not just the loudest.
Btw, you are not the majority just because you keep repeating it. As for minority, I would say the true minority are the malcontents complaining about trivialities like vampires not having to feed to not die, and the nebulous "vampiric themes" that no three players can even agree what those are or should be and are probably directly contradictory to what another group of player wants. Most players just don't give af, have moved on and/or will adapt. <---That's the majority
Cheers!
@Vayln_Ninetails
And what themes would those be because they are conspicuously absent from your opening post? Within the many threads on Vampires, players can't even agree whether they want Vampires to need to feed to survive/progress or not. After years of bagging on the old Vampire drain, some players are now nostalgic for it. Players hated that Vampire was mandatory for every build, and now players hate that it is not. Some players want stamina morphs for Vampire abilities, others say that conflicts with the class design. You think there is a consensus on what players want from Vampires, but I promise there are people who want the exact opposite of what you want and ZoS has to perform the unenviable task of trying to mesh conflicting desires in a way that makes everyone happy...and everyone is never happy.
My initial post was to simply serve as a counterbalance to the naysayers to hopefully mitigate any wild changes to Vampires, because, as I Implied, I think they have a good base that needs some minor tweaking.
And of course, player feedback should be considered. In fact, ZoS has a peculiar habit of giving players exactly what they ask for which (surprise!) oftentimes leads to busted/broken item sets and classes that are either made useless—after which a silent, content group rises up to loudly voice their displeasure and ask for the changes to be reverted—or they are made so OP that they need to be nerfed the next cycle because players don't take power budgets and balance into consideration. Or ZoS goes and does whatever they want, regardless of opinion; minority, majority, or otherwise. For all you know, you might get a kiss curse you never wanted. But it is what it is.
I am well, hope you are too. Cheers!
Some other things to consider in this discussion is that just because there's different opinions on how the line should be changed doesn't mean that we don't agree with each other. Most of those threads are, in fact, brainstorming threads if one actually reads them. Have discussions in the past got heated? Very rarely. Even then, most of the time it's someone coming in saying that vampire is actually good and that it has 'all the themes'. When asked, they're surprisingly quite mum when confronted about the lack of the following;
- Why doesn't the player get healed when feeding?
- Why did they remove the ability to bite enemy players in PvP that encouraged hunting players down in the Imperial City Sewers? Especially in groups (because vampires do hunt in numbers too y'know).
- Why did they remove the gap closer that we had with Clouding Swarm?
- Where's the versatility between Stamina and Magicka?
- Why are we punished for trying to engage in the line/trying to play as a vampire? IE; Feeding. People still stay around Stage 1-2 for those passive benefits, JUST like people did with Supernatural Recovery (which is why the 'regen' argument doesn't work).
- Why on NIRN are we using Health to deal damage, yet everything scales on magicka? Shouldn't it scale with your highest stat?
- This goes for both Werewolves and Vampires; Why isn't there ANY hubs for either that isn't a shrine or the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, and why haven't we gotten any dailies for either? Rampages in towns. Kills in Werewolf/Blood Scion form. A weekly quest that rewards you for biting other players. Stuff like that also promotes the identity of the line, believe it or not. As it stands, the Justice System isn't threatening at all--even when it was bugged out and you'd randomly get a bounty for no reason at all.
- What exactly is box-ticking about Blood Frenzy and how does it work lore-wise with other games of the franchise?
We're not looking for meta cheese. We're not looking for special treatment. We're looking for group viability and actual Vampiric identity here, which no one that's came into the majority of these threads can quite explain where it is and explain why these things are missing along with many others. Magblade plays more like a vampire than Vampire. If Lamae Bal was my progenitor with what was live? I'd stake her myself for ruining her own bloodline.
Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »Exactly. One thing I see very rarely acknowledged by people who like the current iteration of vampire is how absolutely lore breaking the play style currently is.
That's because most people do not care. You assume everyone shares your worry about the fidelity to previous E.S. game lore, but that's your own personal hang-up; most people just want a functional, cohesive, unique, and cool experience. ZOS has even provided in-game lore for why Lamae Bal's children are different from other vampire spawn, you've just chosen to reject it, which is again a personal hang-up. Mind you, the reason we have the current feeding mechanics is because players complained about the previous iteration, and now different players are complaining, which goes to show that trying to cater to forum sentiment is a futile exercise.