RE: Stamina Warden Shalks (Sub Assault) Change

Arjuna1696 · September 2020

Access to major fracture was such a great utility for solo stam warden play - both pve and pvp. I agree with so many that this auto recast is clunky and uncreative. WTB better adjustment to the skill v_v

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

Access to major fracture was such a great utility for solo stam warden play - both pve and pvp. I agree with so many that this auto recast is clunky and uncreative. WTB better adjustment to the skill v_v

I honestly would have preferred the next cast just doing more damage. It's simple and effective. Chaining shalks on CD would be huge ramp, without the clunk. Wouldn't really affect PVP either, unless people just can't dodge shalks. Something like Shalks dealing damage increases the next Shalks' damage by ~20% or something. Could start it lower and have it stack up to like 5 or something for a max of 25% increased damage as long as you continue to chain Shalks on CD. Put a ~4-5s CD on the effect and voila, you've bolstered Stamden's damage tremendously in PVE, and rewarded PVP Wardens who can consistently land the skill consecutively on a target.

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

manny254 wrote: »

I don't understand why the magicka morph was the version that kept the debuff.

On release of Morrowind, the stam morph had both debuffs attached to it. It would make much more sense for the stam morph to return to how it started.

But then what do you do with the mag morph? This skill has always been budgeted very badly, if i'm honest.

relentless_turnip · September 2020

I think you guys may have misunderstood, apologies if you haven't. I think breach is on all morphs, but breach now is physical and spell penetration. I haven't got on PTS yet as I normally wait for EU copy.

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think you guys may have misunderstood, apologies if you haven't. I think breach is on all morphs, but breach now is physical and spell penetration. I haven't got on PTS yet as I normally wait for EU copy.

@relentless_turnip Nah, I checked the moment they brought the PTS up. Mag morph has breach, Stam morph has the auto-recast. No breach. It's clearly a PVP change to prevent burst abuse cases.

Ingram · September 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think you guys may have misunderstood, apologies if you haven't. I think breach is on all morphs, but breach now is physical and spell penetration. I haven't got on PTS yet as I normally wait for EU copy.

@relentless_turnip Nah, I checked the moment they brought the PTS up. Mag morph has breach, Stam morph has the auto-recast. No breach. It's clearly a PVP change to prevent burst abuse cases.

Anyone that thinks stamden burst was too strong for pvp has obviously no clue what they are doing sub assault burst was one of the most predictable thing in the game and anyone that pays attention can block/dodge away from it. People just refuse to learn how to counter things that beat them and call for relentless nerfs when they die instead of getting good.

relentless_turnip · September 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think you guys may have misunderstood, apologies if you haven't. I think breach is on all morphs, but breach now is physical and spell penetration. I haven't got on PTS yet as I normally wait for EU copy.

@relentless_turnip Nah, I checked the moment they brought the PTS up. Mag morph has breach, Stam morph has the auto-recast. No breach. It's clearly a PVP change to prevent burst abuse cases.

😂 Haha! I thought my PvP stamden was safe from the nerf... Nvm I'll be playing my other classes 😬

RealPhoenix · September 2020

I agree that the change is uninspiring and boring, but saying that its a sustain loss is just plain wrong.

You could literally cast a heavy attack in the time that you would usually cast the second shalk, do the same dps as before (assuming breach is on the target, which for any trial environment will be the case anyway) and gain both the extra damage from the heavy attack, aswell as the sustain from it.

So sure, its a boring change, but its definitely not sustain loss lmao

YandereGirlfriend · September 2020

manny254 wrote: »

I don't understand why the magicka morph was the version that kept the debuff.

On release of Morrowind, the stam morph had both debuffs attached to it. It would make much more sense for the stam morph to return to how it started.

I would argue that they just move Breach to the base morph and carry that through as its basic functionality. Then you can add something spicier to to the Mag Shalks and Stam Shalks gets to keep what it had before in addition to its double cast buff.

I am pro Warden losing some of its PvP buffs in order to justify power increases in PvE but Breach is not one of the ones that I think needed to go.

Ingram · September 2020

The issue right now is that they are changing both buffs and this skill. Right now we have no clue how warden will be affected by the major/minor buff changes. I would think a lot considering how buff reliant the class is. As of right now we don't need a major skill to be changed on top of the buff changes as we don't the extent warden is hurt by them.

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

RealPhoenix wrote: »

I agree that the change is uninspiring and boring, but saying that its a sustain loss is just plain wrong.

You could literally cast a heavy attack in the time that you would usually cast the second shalk, do the same dps as before (assuming breach is on the target, which for any trial environment will be the case anyway) and gain both the extra damage from the heavy attack, aswell as the sustain from it.

So sure, its a boring change, but its definitely not sustain loss lmao

The point of the change should be to increase DPS. If you're wasting time on a heavy attack, you're not doing that. The only way this is a gain is if you can comfortably weave another skill where you would typically be casting that shalk.

Commander_Kjlp · September 2020

Maybe i'm missing something with Stamina Warden.

if i'm getting this right, the Magic Warden Morph of Scorch - Deep Fissure stays the same? It still has Major breach which now has Major Fracture part in it aswell, two for one! Ok.. what exactly is the reason Stamina Warden can't have it aswell? So i'm doing dungeon as stamina warden and i'm not gonna have access to major fracture for AOE clears? Why? Every other class has it, including my own using magicka. Its actually hillarious reading posts here... you'd think people only attack bosses in this game? Did i really *** up making special AOE setup switch between the boss fights? Having spell that removes Physical Resistancee is pretty Major part of that.

Wasn't ZOS argument to help newer players or less optimized groups? How does this change do that? Lower CP surely loose big amount of damage now. The moment you get that skill, you are quite stronger. Sure, in dungeons every healer is running that weakness 100% of the time. Reality: it drops even on one boss standing in the middle of the room. I'm doing vet dungeon through finder (they are fine, mostly rush through) but keeping debuffs up is not on optimal level.

Why even remove it? Its *** PVE class, why not keep it for both morphs? Its just annoying. I don't like to test on 21K dummy, i do 3K dummy when i need check on dps and rotation. Bit useless now with no access to the new Major Breach. I just don't understand why *** class have to be made shittier on several objective uses in the game. Solo play, solo farm, less optimized group that i needed to be the guy to do the most in.. all of it is shittier now than before. Bit tired of this. I know only Trials, only 3 other friends running dungeons, only optimized groups - see no problem! Ofc thats completely going against ZOS own take on the situation. I legitimatley ran maybe 3 times out of 40 dungeons with properly optimized group. The old SA was doing a job on playstyle of majority of Wardens i bet.

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

Commander_Kjlp wrote: »

Maybe i'm missing something with Stamina Warden.

if i'm getting this right, the Magic Warden Morph of Scorch - Deep Fissure stays the same? It still has Major breach which now has Major Fracture part in it aswell, two for one! Ok.. what exactly is the reason Stamina Warden can't have it aswell? So i'm doing dungeon as stamina warden and i'm not gonna have access to major fracture for AOE clears? Why? Every other class has it, including my own using magicka. Its actually hillarious reading posts here... you'd think people only attack bosses in this game? Did i really *** up making special AOE setup switch between the boss fights? Having spell that removes Physical Resistancee is pretty Major part of that.

Wasn't ZOS argument to help newer players or less optimized groups? How does this change do that? Lower CP surely loose big amount of damage now. The moment you get that skill, you are quite stronger. Sure, in dungeons every healer is running that weakness 100% of the time. Reality: it drops even on one boss standing in the middle of the room. I'm doing vet dungeon through finder (they are fine, mostly rush through) but keeping debuffs up is not on optimal level.

Why even remove it? Its *** PVE class, why not keep it for both morphs? Its just annoying. I don't like to test on 21K dummy, i do 3K dummy when i need check on dps and rotation. Bit useless now with no access to the new Major Breach. I just don't understand why *** class have to be made shittier on several objective uses in the game. Solo play, solo farm, less optimized group that i needed to be the guy to do the most in.. all of it is shittier now than before. Bit tired of this. I know only Trials, only 3 other friends running dungeons, only optimized groups - see no problem! Ofc thats completely going against ZOS own take on the situation. I legitimatley ran maybe 3 times out of 40 dungeons with properly optimized group. The old SA was doing a job on playstyle of majority of Wardens i bet.

Again, it's clearly a PVP change. It's about reducing burst from the shalks > dizzy > etc combo. People get hyper tilted that Warden can time their burst well and just explode someone. Warden, especially Stamden, consistently gets shafted because of PVP lol. Have since release, honestly.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2020

I play Stamden too but no PTS for me because I’m on console.

Maybe it’s time to shelve birds forever and go with vDSA DW with rending slashes as spamable. Or stick to rending slashes like every other DW build out there.

Maybe crushing weapon from psijic? You can get the additional proc from the damage orb because you can spam 5x. Could get expensive to sustain but maybe it’s worth a look. Seems like it would synch well with new shalks.

So something like prebuff netch and SA then Rotation goes trap-endless hail-soul trap-poison injection-Barswap Growing swarm-SA-5X crushing weapon-SA-Barswap and repeat. Netch every second cycle and bear ultimate opposite netch cycle.

Anyhow I’m watching this thread closely. Good luck testing.

Saubon · September 2020

The change is a pve buff and pvp nerf, both is well deserved

Firstmep · September 2020

Mr_Arce88 wrote: »

From PvP perspective this is a enormous nerf to Warden. Wardens have already a lot on their bars and now they have to find a way to put there also source of breach, which also means loss in burst as it is one skill more that does not do a lot damage Sure for PvE trials group this is a no biggy, some other person will apply debuff, but for PvP... Also yes I know that S&B now can apply both but ony on 1 person and only from close up and not in the burst.

Yeah it's not like stamden on live is one of the, if not the strongest Stam bruiser.
About time they got "small reworks" Templar was hit last patch.
Imagine not having major fracture on one of the hardest hitting aoe delayed burst skill in the game.

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

Saubon wrote: »

The change is a pve buff and pvp nerf, both is well deserved

Effectively, it's a "buff" in that it gains a global every 3s. That's it. That's the whole upgrade. Hardly anything worth praising, if i'm honest. We'll see if it ends up negatively impacting sustain.

Brander12 · September 2020

And what do we get in return??? NOTHING! Remove then all major fractures from all the classes, DK, NB etc. And don't forget to give warden a class stun ability, because fighters guild fear it pretty useless. I'm mad by this nerf. Warden isn't the best class and you throw it into the rubish. OMG >>>

Saubon · September 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Effectively, it's a "buff" in that it gains a global every 3s. That's it. That's the whole upgrade. Hardly anything worth praising, if i'm honest. We'll see if it ends up negatively impacting sustain.

Sustain will be buffed aswell in next patch, so I guess you should be fine

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

Saubon wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Effectively, it's a "buff" in that it gains a global every 3s. That's it. That's the whole upgrade. Hardly anything worth praising, if i'm honest. We'll see if it ends up negatively impacting sustain.

Sustain will be buffed aswell in next patch, so I guess you should be fine

Yeah, that's something we'll have to wait until it basically goes live unless someone wants to take the time and effort to assemble a full raid team on PTS and run a trial.

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

Brander12 wrote: »

And what do we get in return??? NOTHING! Remove then all major fractures from all the classes, DK, NB etc. And don't forget to give warden a class stun ability, because fighters guild fear it pretty useless. I'm mad by this nerf. Warden isn't the best class and you throw it into the rubish. OMG >>>

I think, sadly, volume of crying/complaining plays a big role. It seems to be more centered around PVP from what I have seen. As someone who doesn't PVP a ton, I can't really speak to what is or isn't broken, but there does seem to be a lot of Chicken Little from that side of the game that results in some huge changes.

JohnOfMarkarth · September 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Brander12 wrote: »

And what do we get in return??? NOTHING! Remove then all major fractures from all the classes, DK, NB etc. And don't forget to give warden a class stun ability, because fighters guild fear it pretty useless. I'm mad by this nerf. Warden isn't the best class and you throw it into the rubish. OMG >>>

I think, sadly, volume of crying/complaining plays a big role. It seems to be more centered around PVP from what I have seen. As someone who doesn't PVP a ton, I can't really speak to what is or isn't broken, but there does seem to be a lot of Chicken Little from that side of the game that results in some huge changes.

yeeees. Any thread that is started about any kind of balance... slowly descends into the dark depths of hell's ninth circle called... "but in pvp!". And then it stays on topic of pvp. Because *pinkbunnies* any kind of majority of content of eso right? PvP is the important part. Crocodile tears n all over small things. Then yellow-private-parts-liquid (Cus... even natural processes are censored in this hellscape) on head of any pve complaint with "shush pve... my pvp"

Pink_Pixie · September 2020

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2020

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Maybe that’s the plan all along. People complaining about rapids would have to unlock rapids before caltrops!

YandereGirlfriend · September 2020

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Welcome to playing as a stamSorc xD

MashmalloMan · September 2020

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.

Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
- Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.
Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
- Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.
Major Fracture via Scorch?
- Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.
Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
- Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
Major Brutality via Netch?
- Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
- Covered from your healer.
Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
- Covered from your healer.
Minor Toughness?
- Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Skjaldbjorn · September 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.
Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.

Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.

Major Fracture via Scorch?
Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.

Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.

Major Brutality via Netch?
Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.

Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
Covered from your healer.

Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
Covered from your healer.

Minor Toughness?
Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

As I said previously, I personally would celebrate the removal of Minor Berserk, Major Brutality, Major Savagery and such for a unique group buff, such as access to Major Brittle through the bear ult. Something like that would make losing the solo buffs worthwhile.

MashmalloMan · September 2020

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.
Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.

Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.

Major Fracture via Scorch?
Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.

Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.

Major Brutality via Netch?
Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.

Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
Covered from your healer.

Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
Covered from your healer.

Minor Toughness?
Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

As I said previously, I personally would celebrate the removal of Minor Berserk, Major Brutality, Major Savagery and such for a unique group buff, such as access to Major Brittle through the bear ult. Something like that would make losing the solo buffs worthwhile.

Pretty good points, Bird of Prey slotting for dps is almost surpassed by just slotting Camo Hunter, which also carries over the Minor Berserk buff to back bar providing potentially higher uptime while also providing Major Savagery, which would be annoying to keep up using the lackluster Lotus Flower. Almost 2 skills in 1. 3% wpd vs 2% damage done is also very similar.

I think having Major Brutality on your sustain skill is great and should be lower on the chopping block, I personally hate playing classes without Major Brutality class skills, because the only universal options are 2H momentum and DW flying dagger, which are both lackluster for pve content, while feeling situational or a way to shoehorn your build in pvp.

Lotus Flower needs a complete rework, 1 loveley suggestion I saw would be to increase the duration and provide a unique poison/bleed damage buff. The 20s duration doesn't match Netch or Ice Fortress. I very much like the 33s or 40s from Crit Surge/Bound Armaments which support both 14s and 10s rotations (Endless Hail vs Arrow Barrage) with a large buffer.

Major Brittle would be pretty cool, but my hope is that ZOS plans on abolishing either the 20% crit damage from CP or lowering base crit damage from 150% to 130% to support introducing effects like Minor/Major Brittle. I'd personally prefer for Major Brittle to be applied from something outside of the bear to allow more options for Warden DD's. Not everyone likes the Bear AI and relying on it for end game dps is a problem. The second issue is the fact that Wardens have innate +10% crit dmg to chilled enemies, minor brittle 10% from frost staves and then potentially major brittle for another 20%. Thats pretty much +40% crit damage from 1 class which is a bit obscene, I think something would have to change drastically to support that idea.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.
Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.

Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.

Major Fracture via Scorch?
Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.

Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.

Major Brutality via Netch?
Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.

Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
Covered from your healer.

Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
Covered from your healer.

Minor Toughness?
Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Netch is required for sustain. Lotus is there for survival. Sub assault need to be aimed (and timed) properly. Bird of prey has to be slotted to get any real damage out of warden, you need that 8% plus 2% animal companion bonus passive. That also means to push out damage we have to slot cutting dive, which is an average at best spamable because to get the most out of that it requires the target to be off balance. Growing swarm is solid. Expansive frost cloak is actually decent when soloing against mobs.

Now there are some other interesting things you bring with solo warden and that’s gripping shards for a quick AOE/CC, best used against mobs of course but you’ll likely drop your class spamable for something like whirling blades for the AOE plus execute.

That’s the real killer of warden in PvE, no real execute. You have to use either whirling blades or poison injection on your back bar. Or be a rebel and use both.

I’m the end though in PvE, especially if you solo you have to buff up and weave 5 or more skills dynamically to keep them up and you still deal inferior damage. My Stam NB buffs with 4 skills that synch up much better and last a lot longer than and it hits way harder.

MashmalloMan · September 2020

Side note. While I do like the new Sub Assaults double cast and do not agree with it feeling "clunky", I will say it CAN feel odd because the animation that happens under the casters body does not restart after the first cast. This telegraph is not only important for other players and counterplay, but an excellent way to tell the casting warden with a visual queue when you should be ready for you next cast.

I was forced to count in my head. I do not think this was intentional from the devs and was simply an oversight, but I still thought I'd bring it up because I haven't seen 1 person mention it.