RE: Stamina Warden Shalks (Sub Assault) Change

Skjaldbjorn

ecru wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.

1. Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
   • Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.
2. Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
   • Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.
3. Major Fracture via Scorch?
   • Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.
4. Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
5. Major Brutality via Netch?
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
6. Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
   • Covered from your healer.
7. Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
   • Covered from your healer.
8. Minor Toughness?
   • Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Problem with stamden in pvp, is that they are the tankiest class atm, and thanks to malacath you can still have damage the rivals well built stamblades.
Yes malacath is a big part of the issue, but warden has a lot of built in damage modifiers as well, and Arctic blast scales just a little bit too well.
I would've preferred if they toned down Arctic blast, but something needed to be done to reign in stamdens.
It's kinda stupid that you can run around with emperor levels of hp and still dish out so much damage.
Now don't get me wrong 1v1 it's not really an issue, since warden burst is highly predictable, but you also won't kill a well built stamden 1v1 unless they fall asleep.
At the end of the day the class just has a bit too much going for it.
At any rate I think a big class overhaul is needed, as many base game classes run around atm with heavily outdated skills and passives.
I can't remember ever having to choose what class skills to run on my stamplar for example, vs my stamden or stamcro where I actually have think which amazing skills I can fit on my bar.

Agree 100%. The "epicdemic" of 40k hp stamdens still being able to instagib people needs to go. I was hit for 11.1k by dawnbreaker from a stamden with 54k hp in Cyrodiil the other day with ~30k resists and minor protection. I wasn't even paying attention to him because I thought there was no way a stamden with over 50k hp could be a threat, assuming he was a shieldbot or running something dumb like Harbinger or whatever, and next thing I know I take a 6k sub assault, 6k dizzy, 11k dawnbreaker, ~2.5k light attack, and ~9k executioner. It's just so far beyond what should be possible in this game and because it has been allowed to go on for so long, every other person I run into seems to be a stamden with a high hp pool.

This of course isn't just limited to good players, there are a whole lot of very very mediocre players doing this too, and while they aren't great at killing people, due to their high hp and the warden toolkit they're next to impossible to kill, which I guess is the goal. You know the players I mean--they generally don't do a whole lot as they aren't even great at executing their combo but the moment they get below 40% hp they'll hit sleet storm and hold block. They all got tired of getting dunked on by good players, realized they could just stack hp, still be effective, and rarely have to die again, so that's what they did.

Buff the hell out of them in pvp, fine, at the very least the minor buffs they don't need, that will be provided by a good group, need to go.

@ecru Not going to lie, contextually speaking, I cannot fathom how Stamden can do so much damage in PVP with 50k HP, and struggle mightily to even be remotely competitive in PVE while dumping everything into offensive stats/damage. I have no idea what the root cause is. It can't be the litany of mini buffs we get, because all those apply to PVE as well. There's some disconnect here that i'm simply not understanding at all. Is it the burst pattern with queued shalks? That's the only conclusion I can draw.

I can get with the unkillable part. Warden has a metric crapton of defensive tools. Fully aware of that. It is illogical that their offensive production is exceedingly high in PVP, but woefully behind in PVE. Where is the disconnect here?

Everest_Lionheart

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.

1. Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
   • Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.
2. Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
   • Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.
3. Major Fracture via Scorch?
   • Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.
4. Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
5. Major Brutality via Netch?
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
6. Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
   • Covered from your healer.
7. Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
   • Covered from your healer.
8. Minor Toughness?
   • Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Problem with stamden in pvp, is that they are the tankiest class atm, and thanks to malacath you can still have damage the rivals well built stamblades.
Yes malacath is a big part of the issue, but warden has a lot of built in damage modifiers as well, and Arctic blast scales just a little bit too well.
I would've preferred if they toned down Arctic blast, but something needed to be done to reign in stamdens.
It's kinda stupid that you can run around with emperor levels of hp and still dish out so much damage.
Now don't get me wrong 1v1 it's not really an issue, since warden burst is highly predictable, but you also won't kill a well built stamden 1v1 unless they fall asleep.
At the end of the day the class just has a bit too much going for it.
At any rate I think a big class overhaul is needed, as many base game classes run around atm with heavily outdated skills and passives.
I can't remember ever having to choose what class skills to run on my stamplar for example, vs my stamden or stamcro where I actually have think which amazing skills I can fit on my bar.

Agree 100%. The "epicdemic" of 40k hp stamdens still being able to instagib people needs to go. I was hit for 11.1k by dawnbreaker from a stamden with 54k hp in Cyrodiil the other day with ~30k resists and minor protection. I wasn't even paying attention to him because I thought there was no way a stamden with over 50k hp could be a threat, assuming he was a shieldbot or running something dumb like Harbinger or whatever, and next thing I know I take a 6k sub assault, 6k dizzy, 11k dawnbreaker, ~2.5k light attack, and ~9k executioner. It's just so far beyond what should be possible in this game and because it has been allowed to go on for so long, every other person I run into seems to be a stamden with a high hp pool.

This of course isn't just limited to good players, there are a whole lot of very very mediocre players doing this too, and while they aren't great at killing people, due to their high hp and the warden toolkit they're next to impossible to kill, which I guess is the goal. You know the players I mean--they generally don't do a whole lot as they aren't even great at executing their combo but the moment they get below 40% hp they'll hit sleet storm and hold block. They all got tired of getting dunked on by good players, realized they could just stack hp, still be effective, and rarely have to die again, so that's what they did.

Buff the hell out of them in pvp, fine, at the very least the minor buffs they don't need, that will be provided by a good group, need to go.

@ecru Not going to lie, contextually speaking, I cannot fathom how Stamden can do so much damage in PVP with 50k HP, and struggle mightily to even be remotely competitive in PVE while dumping everything into offensive stats/damage. I have no idea what the root cause is. It can't be the litany of mini buffs we get, because all those apply to PVE as well. There's some disconnect here that i'm simply not understanding at all. Is it the burst pattern with queued shalks? That's the only conclusion I can draw.

I can get with the unkillable part. Warden has a metric crapton of defensive tools. Fully aware of that. It is illogical that their offensive production is exceedingly high in PVP, but woefully behind in PVE. Where is the disconnect here?

It’s just a proportion of damage. That 6K shalk is taking ~15% off a competitors HP in PvP assuming 35K health.

That same shalk hitting 15K in PvE (2.5x stronger) assuming your target has 2 million health (vet dungeon bosses have way more as you know) hits for 0.75% of the total health. If it’s a 4 million HP target that’s 0.375% of the total HP.

Now of course in both game modes we are firing off way more than shalks and the damage will stack up. It like something doesn’t scale properly from one side of the game to the other. That and sustain is abysmal and get exposed in the longer fights. PvE generally we can’t just stand around and hold block while major resolve and minor protection are active and expect to survive one shot mechs.

I heavy attack a lot in PvE, so much that instead of burning through all my stamina and then heavy attacking to build up again I just incorporate them into appropriate spots of the fight where mechs force me in and out anyway. The forced mechs are a good time to buff back up and charge back in shalks while landing a heavy than shalk again, dots heavy, shalk, swap, backbar dots, swap, shalk, spam, mechs, repeat. No real penalty or overcasting netch other than DPS loss, what’s a few K DPS lost when you are already 20K behind everyone else?

ESO_Nightingale

ecru wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pink_Pixie wrote: »

The bad side to this change is, stamina wardens lose their only major fracture ability. So, we're forced to look outside of our skill set to get major fracture back. I'm reasonably sure every class has some form of breach/fracture in their toolkit. Unless something else is going to be changed in the stamina warden toolkit we'll be forced into using things like caltrops to have major fracture.

Lol, "reasonably sure"?..Only Stam DK and Warden currently have Major Breach.

Stam Templars have Minor Breach.

Stam Sorc, Templar, NB and Necro, all get it from Razor Caltrops or Night Mothers Gaze for solo content. Necro's may use Graveyard instead because although the damage scaling sucks, it costs magicka(sustain) and provides a group synergy which scales on the activators highest stats.

In pve groups, tanks automatically taunt and therefore apply major breach to high priority targets so you didn't really need to focus on applying it in the first place from a competitive standpoint. For aoe trash where you might be concerned, I would trust Razor Caltrops which snares and proivdes a larger aoe, over a skill that attacks in a straight line and has a 3s delay anyday, plus a support role can use Razor Caltrops easily to do it, over a DD.

Stam Warden has consistently been 1 of, if not the weakest stamina dps in the game for pve, while consistently being one of the best for pvp. It starts with how much access they have to innate buffs that promote them as an excellent solo class, taking away from their total powerbudget, but in groups, their utility is quickly deminished because most of their buffs/debuffs become redundant.

1. Minor Protection via Armor Buff?
   • Most of the 12 DD roles do not cast their dedicated armor buff, the only exception is Stam Sorc because it is an essential damage skill.
2. Major Protection via Sleet Storm?
   • Tank/Magicka skill, great for pvp.
3. Major Fracture via Scorch?
   • Tank taunts and if you want aoe fracture, their is 2 better options.
4. Major Savagery via Lotus Flower.
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
5. Major Brutality via Netch?
   • Use stam/crit/weapon damage pots.
6. Minor Berserk via Bird of Prey?
   • Covered from your healer.
7. Minor Vulnerability via Growing Swarm?
   • Covered from your healer.
8. Minor Toughness?
   • Covered from your healer/tank.

If we want stam wardens to be stronger from purely a dps perspective like so many claim, than it stands to reason they need to lose some of their swiss army knife tools to do so. If you're not comfortable with losing any of the above and continuing to be one of if not the best solo, tank and healing classes in the game, than give me 1 good reason why you think they deserve to have more dps than other classes that don't have as many innate buffs/debuffs. Something's gotta give at the end of the day..

Problem with stamden in pvp, is that they are the tankiest class atm, and thanks to malacath you can still have damage the rivals well built stamblades.
Yes malacath is a big part of the issue, but warden has a lot of built in damage modifiers as well, and Arctic blast scales just a little bit too well.
I would've preferred if they toned down Arctic blast, but something needed to be done to reign in stamdens.
It's kinda stupid that you can run around with emperor levels of hp and still dish out so much damage.
Now don't get me wrong 1v1 it's not really an issue, since warden burst is highly predictable, but you also won't kill a well built stamden 1v1 unless they fall asleep.
At the end of the day the class just has a bit too much going for it.
At any rate I think a big class overhaul is needed, as many base game classes run around atm with heavily outdated skills and passives.
I can't remember ever having to choose what class skills to run on my stamplar for example, vs my stamden or stamcro where I actually have think which amazing skills I can fit on my bar.

Agree 100%. The "epicdemic" of 40k hp stamdens still being able to instagib people needs to go. I was hit for 11.1k by dawnbreaker from a stamden with 54k hp in Cyrodiil the other day with ~30k resists and minor protection. I wasn't even paying attention to him because I thought there was no way a stamden with over 50k hp could be a threat, assuming he was a shieldbot or running something dumb like Harbinger or whatever, and next thing I know I take a 6k sub assault, 6k dizzy, 11k dawnbreaker, ~2.5k light attack, and ~9k executioner. It's just so far beyond what should be possible in this game and because it has been allowed to go on for so long, every other person I run into seems to be a stamden with a high hp pool.

This of course isn't just limited to good players, there are a whole lot of very very mediocre players doing this too, and while they aren't great at killing people, due to their high hp and the warden toolkit they're next to impossible to kill, which I guess is the goal. You know the players I mean--they generally don't do a whole lot as they aren't even great at executing their combo but the moment they get below 40% hp they'll hit sleet storm and hold block. They all got tired of getting dunked on by good players, realized they could just stack hp, still be effective, and rarely have to die again, so that's what they did.

Buff the hell out of them in pvp, fine, at the very least the minor buffs they don't need, that will be provided by a good group, need to go.

We are trying to get arctic blast addressed, and to get it turned into a legitimate damage and stun skill. that would be one of the best ways to address the health stacking, while polar wind would probably be the next skill they'd go after, there are ways to nerf that while keeping it relavant for pve tanks.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get arctic blast addressed, and to get it turned into a legitimate damage and stun skill. that would be one of the best ways to address the health stacking, while polar wind would probably be the next skill they'd go after, there are ways to nerf that while keeping it relavant for pve tanks.

Such as? I do a fair bit of Warden tanking. Polar Wind needs to be left alone, honestly. It's a solid heal, there's nothing broken about it really. It heals for less up-front HP than GDB with far fewer added buffs/effects.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get arctic blast addressed, and to get it turned into a legitimate damage and stun skill. that would be one of the best ways to address the health stacking, while polar wind would probably be the next skill they'd go after, there are ways to nerf that while keeping it relavant for pve tanks.

Such as? I do a fair bit of Warden tanking. Polar Wind needs to be left alone, honestly. It's a solid heal, there's nothing broken about it really. It heals for less up-front HP than GDB with far fewer added buffs/effects.

People have said before to have it's heal scale down in power based on your weapon or spell damage, but not max stam or magicka. That would be a great way to nerf it in pvp but not touch it too much, or even at all in pve depending on how it's done.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get arctic blast addressed, and to get it turned into a legitimate damage and stun skill. that would be one of the best ways to address the health stacking, while polar wind would probably be the next skill they'd go after, there are ways to nerf that while keeping it relavant for pve tanks.

Such as? I do a fair bit of Warden tanking. Polar Wind needs to be left alone, honestly. It's a solid heal, there's nothing broken about it really. It heals for less up-front HP than GDB with far fewer added buffs/effects.

People have said before to have it's heal scale down in power based on your weapon or spell damage, but not max stam or magicka. That would be a great way to nerf it in pvp but not touch it too much, or even at all in pve depending on how it's done.

Waitwut. So the heal would be reduced if you have spell or weapon damage? So raid buffs will nerf your heal? That's obnoxious and silly, honestly.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

We are trying to get arctic blast addressed, and to get it turned into a legitimate damage and stun skill. that would be one of the best ways to address the health stacking, while polar wind would probably be the next skill they'd go after, there are ways to nerf that while keeping it relavant for pve tanks.

Such as? I do a fair bit of Warden tanking. Polar Wind needs to be left alone, honestly. It's a solid heal, there's nothing broken about it really. It heals for less up-front HP than GDB with far fewer added buffs/effects.

People have said before to have it's heal scale down in power based on your weapon or spell damage, but not max stam or magicka. That would be a great way to nerf it in pvp but not touch it too much, or even at all in pve depending on how it's done.

Waitwut. So the heal would be reduced if you have spell or weapon damage? So raid buffs will nerf your heal? That's obnoxious and silly, honestly.

They could make it only work past a certain threshold. There are ways to make it work, another way is to make soothing spores and enchanted growth more desirable.

Edit: nerfing the ways to stack health also works. Such as removing the health from clever alchemist and making all sources of health the same as the other max stats instead of being slightly more powerful.

thadjarvis

@ESO_Nightingale
Polar Wind is the single Warden skill that never leaves a PvE tank's bar in any situation. Respectfully, you should refrain from advocating changing it until you've done a fair bit of vet hm tanking.

Health based healing in PvP is not a tank skill problem. It's the product of buffing Proc damage sets and introducing Malacath. The answer (if the goal is to revert back) is not to go nerf all class heals for PvE tanks. Fix (nerf) the PvP proc sets instead as they are isolated to PvP.

@Skjaldbjorn
I thought stamden was getting a more subtle but potentially substantional buff through minor brittle. Coordinated groups will apply minor brittle which also will activate Stamden's Glacial Presence 10% crit damage. So, they'll get a +20% crit while other classes get +10% next patch? Have you tried it or want someone to help test it? It's probably a pipe dream anyway because the Morag Tong buff is still such a lingering hurdle to surpass the necor/NB power.

ESO_Nightingale

thadjarvis wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale
Polar Wind is the single Warden skill that never leaves a PvE tank's bar in any situation. Respectfully, you should refrain from advocating changing it until you've done a fair bit of vet hm tanking.

Health based healing in PvP is not a tank skill problem. It's the product of buffing Proc damage sets and introducing Malacath. The answer (if the goal is to revert back) is not to go nerf all class heals for PvE tanks. Fix the PvP sets instead as they are isolated to PvP.

that was roughly one of the suggestions, if possible NOT needing to touch polar wind would be the best possible outcome. so if we get there that would be great. i don't want to unnecessarily take pve power out of polar.

thadjarvis

@ESO_Nightingale
I'm just massively confused as to what Polar Wind has to do with PvE Stamden (which this thread pertains to)

Skjaldbjorn

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Skjaldbjorn
I thought stamden was getting a more subtle but potentially substantional buff through minor brittle. Coordinated groups will apply minor brittle which also will activate Stamden's Glacial Presence 10% crit damage. So, they'll get a +20% crit while other classes get +10% next patch? Have you tried it or want someone to help test it? It's probably a pipe dream anyway because the Morag Tong buff is still such a lingering hurdle to surpass the necor/NB power.

@thadjarvis I don't see it being hugely significant, but that will require legit testing in a trial scenario. We have no idea what kind of uptimes we can expect from Minor Brittle. Chilled is also incredibly ineffective on non-Wardens. I've been in groups with Magcros, asylum staff users, tanks with frost staves, etc. Unless Stamden gets a way to apply chilled reliably, it's a very "meh" buff at best imo.

ESO_Nightingale

thadjarvis wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale
I'm just massively confused as to what Polar Wind has to do with PvE Stamden (which this thread pertains to)

well, if you would take some time to read previous comments, Ecru was talking about high hp stamdens wardens in pvp, and I responded with what we are trying to do to fix that. And then the topic went to that instead. Because as you may know, the state of stamden in pve is heavily linked to it's performance in pvp. so while it's slightly off topic, it's still somewhat relevant.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Skjaldbjorn
I thought stamden was getting a more subtle but potentially substantional buff through minor brittle. Coordinated groups will apply minor brittle which also will activate Stamden's Glacial Presence 10% crit damage. So, they'll get a +20% crit while other classes get +10% next patch? Have you tried it or want someone to help test it? It's probably a pipe dream anyway because the Morag Tong buff is still such a lingering hurdle to surpass the necor/NB power.

@thadjarvis I don't see it being hugely significant, but that will require legit testing in a trial scenario. We have no idea what kind of uptimes we can expect from Minor Brittle. Chilled is also incredibly ineffective on non-Wardens. I've been in groups with Magcros, asylum staff users, tanks with frost staves, etc. Unless Stamden gets a way to apply chilled reliably, it's a very "meh" buff at best imo.

as it's +10% critical damage from everyone in the group, people will be wanting to have as much uptime on it as possible, i can see it being a noticible buff as now stamdens will more often gain access to glacial presence.

thadjarvis

Yes, PvE warden (all roles) will be in flux until good trial groups test them.

Brittle
Tank: OT candidate to keep up brittle
Healer: if OT can do it then you don't need warden healer anymore.
Mag: if OT warden can't do it well or magden can can do it just as well without loosing tons of DPS than they are in play. If OT warden can maintain uptime, testing will have to see if magden can compete on DPS due to higher chill uptime (glacial passive)
Stam: can't apply brittle to a significant degree but if an OT warden can then possible relative DPS buff over other classes. Will it be enough...?

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Skjaldbjorn
I thought stamden was getting a more subtle but potentially substantional buff through minor brittle. Coordinated groups will apply minor brittle which also will activate Stamden's Glacial Presence 10% crit damage. So, they'll get a +20% crit while other classes get +10% next patch? Have you tried it or want someone to help test it? It's probably a pipe dream anyway because the Morag Tong buff is still such a lingering hurdle to surpass the necor/NB power.

@thadjarvis I don't see it being hugely significant, but that will require legit testing in a trial scenario. We have no idea what kind of uptimes we can expect from Minor Brittle. Chilled is also incredibly ineffective on non-Wardens. I've been in groups with Magcros, asylum staff users, tanks with frost staves, etc. Unless Stamden gets a way to apply chilled reliably, it's a very "meh" buff at best imo.

as it's +10% critical damage from everyone in the group, people will be wanting to have as much uptime on it as possible, i can see it being a noticible buff as now stamdens will more often gain access to glacial presence.

Context is important. It's going to require a frost staff front bar, which is a massive nerf for most mag DPS. Mag may not even be overly relevant next patch. This is the issue I have been trying to explain to you for months. Without a Magden in group, the passive is next to worthless, as will be Minor Brittle. With multiple Magcros, asylum users, ele weapon users AND at least one tank with frost blockade, chilled uptime was still in the 30-40% range. That's abysmal.

Max uptime will be a Warden applying it. So either a token Magden, or Stamden gets a way to apply it.

And even if Stamden gets a feasible way to apply chilled, you still need another person with a frost staff to proc brittle. Giving Stamden chilled now is just giving them half the combo. It's incredibly minor, but would benefit them hugely and give them a place.

thadjarvis

I thought the baseline idea is for Warden OT to do it:
double bar frost staff, charge/infused, frost enchant, winters revenge.

That's perfectly doable setup for encounters like CR mini tank, Yoln/Lokk OT

Yes on frost staff for magden; I mentioned to Night in another channel that the problem with brittle is that you have to use a frost a frost staff. He replied that that's no a problem. Frost staff is a support weapon which they reiterated hard with the patch notes. It is NOT a DPS weapon. That said DD's will gimp themselves if it's an overall group gain which would have to be trial tested. I'm guessing OT warden has the most promise but can;t know yet.

Skjaldbjorn

thadjarvis wrote: »

I thought the baseline idea is for Warden OT to do it:
double bar frost staff, charge/infused, frost enchant, winters revenge.

That's perfectly doable setup for encounters like CR mini tank, Yoln/Lokk OT

Yes on frost staff for magden; I mentioned to Night in another channel that the problem with brittle is that you have to use a frost a frost staff. He replied that that's no a problem. Frost staff is a support weapon which they reiterated hard with the patch notes. It is NOT a DPS weapon. That said DD's will gimp themselves if it's an overall group gain which would have to be trial tested. I'm guessing OT warden has the most promise but can;t know yet.

I suppose that makes sense, but it also sounds like aids for the OT tbh. I wouldn't want to have that job. That's trash. Especially a staff/staff build. Yikes.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

@Skjaldbjorn
I thought stamden was getting a more subtle but potentially substantional buff through minor brittle. Coordinated groups will apply minor brittle which also will activate Stamden's Glacial Presence 10% crit damage. So, they'll get a +20% crit while other classes get +10% next patch? Have you tried it or want someone to help test it? It's probably a pipe dream anyway because the Morag Tong buff is still such a lingering hurdle to surpass the necor/NB power.

@thadjarvis I don't see it being hugely significant, but that will require legit testing in a trial scenario. We have no idea what kind of uptimes we can expect from Minor Brittle. Chilled is also incredibly ineffective on non-Wardens. I've been in groups with Magcros, asylum staff users, tanks with frost staves, etc. Unless Stamden gets a way to apply chilled reliably, it's a very "meh" buff at best imo.

as it's +10% critical damage from everyone in the group, people will be wanting to have as much uptime on it as possible, i can see it being a noticible buff as now stamdens will more often gain access to glacial presence.

Context is important. It's going to require a frost staff front bar, which is a massive nerf for most mag DPS. Mag may not even be overly relevant next patch. This is the issue I have been trying to explain to you for months. Without a Magden in group, the passive is next to worthless, as will be Minor Brittle. With multiple Magcros, asylum users, ele weapon users AND at least one tank with frost blockade, chilled uptime was still in the 30-40% range. That's abysmal.

Max uptime will be a Warden applying it. So either a token Magden, or Stamden gets a way to apply it.

And even if Stamden gets a feasible way to apply chilled, you still need another person with a frost staff to proc brittle. Giving Stamden chilled now is just giving them half the combo. It's incredibly minor, but would benefit them hugely and give them a place.

seems like it'll be different next patch, as before only glacial presence applied to wardens in the group, but now the groups will be actively building someone for chilled uptime, i believe that the issue with chilled uptime in the group will be solved, but only time will tell when next patch releases.

Celestro

Man, having to juggle the 3s was already a little rough for me at times until I finally figured it out. Now 6s? Blah. Wish they could've just made a second cast of it cost nothing, somewhat in the same vein as the Fetcher Infection morph with its 50% damage increase. A freed up GCD is nice too I suppose but I'm not super proficient with stamdens./shrug

Skjaldbjorn

Celestro wrote: »

Man, having to juggle the 3s was already a little rough for me at times until I finally figured it out. Now 6s? Blah. Wish they could've just made a second cast of it cost nothing, somewhat in the same vein as the Fetcher Infection morph with its 50% damage increase. A freed up GCD is nice too I suppose but I'm not super proficient with stamdens./shrug

My preference is actually reducing the base damage a bit to help the burst pattern in PVP, but add a stacking damage ramp for every consecutive shalk cast within a certain timeframe. So basically, if you keep casting it on CD, it ramps up to like +25% damage or something.

CaffeinatedMayhem

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Shalks is not spammable. This change is a buff to sustain as now for every cast, you get a free cast.

Technically, no, shalk is not spammable, however, it is necessary to cast as often as possible, being the bulk of warden's (meager) damage.

I'm all for the free extra cast. Makes more damage while I'm on my back bar, uses less resources, and DPS warden's don't need the (new) breach.

Now, for PvP warden can use the breach version, and for tanks that want to use that Breach instead of something reasonable like pierce armor. (for solo work I use elemental drain... or used to I guess. still, there are other ways to fracture armor when working solo)

Ok, I'm going to retract this comment.

I was under the impression that MAGICKA was getting a free cast too... oh but no, we're not.
So stamina gets a free cast and Magicka gets an armor crack, that tanks already have other/better ways of implementing.

Welp, time to retire the PvE magden again. I guess someone told the combat team that magicka warden is for tanking not DPS, kinda like magicka templar is for healing not DPS. <

Olupajmibanan

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

Two flies killed in one hit, what more could you ask for?

Can't understand how people in this thread say it is not a strong change. I even fear they will nerf it because there are few (if any) abilities that do so much damage per cast. It might be against the almighty spreadsheet.

ESO_Nightingale

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

Two flies killed in one hit, what more could you ask for?

Can't understand how people in this thread say it is not a strong change. I even fear they will nerf it because there are few (if any) abilities that do so much damage per cast. It might be against the almighty spreadsheet.

i'm going to wait until people are definitely sure how stamden sits in pve before i re-release the warden roadmap. as the current updated suggestions will most likely make stamina warden extremely powerful in pve compared to everyone else, and i still need to tune the magicka warden suggestions. The idea is to make them viable and more fleshed out especially concerning pve. but the idea is not to make them definitively top tier in pvp or pve.

Joy_Division

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

Two flies killed in one hit, what more could you ask for?

Can't understand how people in this thread say it is not a strong change. I even fear they will nerf it because there are few (if any) abilities that do so much damage per cast. It might be against the almighty spreadsheet.

Here's what I'd ask for: how about solving these sorts of issues without resorting to gimmicks that encourage mindless gameplay. Automatic recasting of an ability take no skill, no thought, no strategy, no resources, no anything. Effective? Sure, but that's the problem: it's already a powerful skill and now the player doesn't even have to press a button half the time to use it. You said it yourself: uncreative. How low have we lowered the bar to actually be applauding that?

Also, you suggest another potential issue I can easily foresee down the road: it does do a ton of damage per cast and PvPers will not like it when such a powerful skill will be auto cast even when a player is stunned or getting outplayed. And this may definitely come up because Warden is such a popular group class and those ball groups are going to have an extra cooldown to spam even more heals than they already do.

I don't agree with the OP because they are basically arguing an extra GCD is worse because that means they have to use resources to cast something else or their rotation is messed up. That's crazy. It's a free cast; action economy is incredibly strong. I'd rather fight a warden with the old version of this skill.

ESO_Nightingale

Joy_Division wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

Two flies killed in one hit, what more could you ask for?

Can't understand how people in this thread say it is not a strong change. I even fear they will nerf it because there are few (if any) abilities that do so much damage per cast. It might be against the almighty spreadsheet.

Here's what I'd ask for: how about solving these sorts of issues without resorting to gimmicks that encourage mindless gameplay. Automatic recasting of an ability take no skill, no thought, no strategy, no resources, no anything. Effective? Sure, but that's the problem: it's already a powerful skill and now the player doesn't even have to press a button half the time to use it. You said it yourself: uncreative. How low have we lowered the bar to actually be applauding that?

Also, you suggest another potential issue I can easily foresee down the road: it does do a ton of damage per cast and PvPers will not like it when such a powerful skill will be auto cast even when a player is stunned or getting outplayed. And this may definitely come up because Warden is such a popular group class and those ball groups are going to have an extra cooldown to spam even more heals than they already do.

I don't agree with the OP because they are basically arguing an extra GCD is worse because that means they have to use resources to cast something else or their rotation is messed up. That's crazy. It's a free cast; action economy is incredibly strong. I'd rather fight a warden with the old version of this skill.

i think (provided it's actually really good in pve) that it's an okay temporary solution. but in the future, we should focus on giving stamden more identity towards bleeds on it's other skills. what the solution would be for subterranean assault at that point, i'm not sure.

Arjuna1696

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

Two flies killed in one hit, what more could you ask for?

Can't understand how people in this thread say it is not a strong change. I even fear they will nerf it because there are few (if any) abilities that do so much damage per cast. It might be against the almighty spreadsheet.

I've come around to this thinking. Having played around with it more on the PTS, the extra GCD is ... totally awesome. And I agree that it's a good balance for pvp warden - arguably a little less of a nerf than it seems because you'll still get some extra pressure dps from the GCD in pvp, too. Excited for Markarth.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

What about MAGICKA warden? We didn't get a recast.

Olupajmibanan

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

What about MAGICKA warden? We didn't get a recast.

Magwarden got Minor Brittle? He's the only reliable source of the debuff right now, especially for AoE situations. At least one magwarden has secured place in a magicka composition trial group. Better than nothing, I guess?

CaffeinatedMayhem

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

What about MAGICKA warden? We didn't get a recast.

Magwarden got Minor Brittle? He's the only reliable source of the debuff right now, especially for AoE situations. At least one magwarden has secured place in a magicka composition trial group. Better than nothing, I guess?

Oh yes “ sure we’ll let you in a trial group because you can easily apply a unique buff” is such a great feeling... not.

BTW, Warden tanks and heals can apply too. Plus using an ice staff is a 10k DPS drop for me.

Olupajmibanan

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Uncreative change? Yes it is. But it's definitely effective one.

Removal of Resistance debuff was enough to tone PvP warden down (if PvP warden needed toning down, that's for another discussion) but more importantly, automatic recast was enough to bring PvE warden from dead to top positions.

What about MAGICKA warden? We didn't get a recast.

Magwarden got Minor Brittle? He's the only reliable source of the debuff right now, especially for AoE situations. At least one magwarden has secured place in a magicka composition trial group. Better than nothing, I guess?

Oh yes “ sure we’ll let you in a trial group because you can easily apply a unique buff” is such a great feeling... not.

BTW, Warden tanks and heals can apply too. Plus using an ice staff is a 10k DPS drop for me.

Isn't it better than not being let in at all? You should look at the bright side.