RE: Stamina Warden Shalks (Sub Assault) Change

Skjaldbjorn

PVE Perspective

Having parsed a few times now;

• This change feels completely uninspired from top to bottom. It fails to address the biggest pains of Stamina Warden in any meaningful way. This feels like a PVP change exclusively to take away fracture, with no earthly idea how to add anything meaningful back to PVE.
  
• This takes an already clunky as hell rotation thanks to the awful birds change some patches ago, and adds 200% more clunk. Now you have to remember, after god knows how many patches, that your sub isn't every 3 skills, it's every 6. No one asked for this. Yes, we gain a global. It also wrecks sustain even harder, as Shalks is our cheapest "spammable" and birds is overpriced for what it does outside of Off-Balance.
  
• This change fails to address the lack of group utility Stamden has. It's their central pain. We bring nothing to a group outside of *** poor damage, and this change fails to resolve either of those issues. It won't be a meaningful DPS gain, as it's simply gaining a global every 3s at the cost of sustain. Theoretically, the one piece of group utility Stamden provided was AoE fracture. And now, like your money in South Park investment holdings, it's gone.
  
• I continue to feel as though no one in the actual dev/balance team has any idea how Stamden works, what makes them interesting/compelling to the player, and why they are such a meme in PVE. We finally get a change, and this...this is it? This is what we waited so long for? It's heartbreaking, disappointing and just pitiful.
  
• A much, much more meaningful change would have been to cap bird bleed stacks and unchain them from Off-Balance. It would have provided consistent, reliable damage for Stamden that doesn't crack our sustain in the skull even more, and give us a reason to slot birds again over Wrecking Blow.

I don't mean to be an ass, but unless you're willing to listen to people that actually play the class in PVE, just delete it.

nsmurfer

Shalks is not spammable. This change is a buff to sustain as now for every cast, you get a free cast.

ESO_Nightingale

Agreed.

Skjaldbjorn

nsmurfer wrote: »

Shalks is not spammable. This change is a buff to sustain as now for every cast, you get a free cast.

It's not, though. Shalks is our cheapest "spammable". Now we are weaving more birds, which means more sustain loss. This is a net sustain drop, not gain.

Alchimiste1

net sustain drop ? you can literally just not cast a skill and just light attack when you would normally sub before and you'll gain sustain.

Skjaldbjorn

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

net sustain drop ? you can literally just not cast a skill and just light attack when you would normally sub before and you'll gain sustain.

You don't play end-game PVE, do you Squidward?

Alchimiste1

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

net sustain drop ? you can literally just not cast a skill and just light attack when you would normally sub before and you'll gain sustain.

You don't play end-game PVE, do you Squidward?

not my best parse but there you go.
also isnt everyone gaining like 20% regen from major endurance/intellect ? that should be enough to help sustain more bird spam

Skjaldbjorn

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

net sustain drop ? you can literally just not cast a skill and just light attack when you would normally sub before and you'll gain sustain.

You don't play end-game PVE, do you Squidward?

not my best parse but there you go.
also isnt everyone gaining like 20% regen from major endurance/intellect ? that should be enought so help sustain more bird spam

If you're *ever* just spamming light attacks, there's something deeply wrong with your build, or your supports are memeing you for the lulz. Period. "Just light attack instead of casting a skill!" is not, in any way, a meaningful solution.

Also, dummy parses are cool, but not really the point. I'm not talking about dummy sustain.

Stamina Warden sustain is awful at the moment. Easily in the top-3 worst of the current stamina classes. Yes, the Major Endurance change would be a nice buff for us, but now we're pumping our drain because of a change that really doesn't even make sense.

When they changed birds, we had to retool our rotations from top to bottom. Shalks every 2 skills? No sir, now it's 3, with a 10s backbar rotation or fully dynamic rotation to keep up PI for Master's bow and the bird bleed. Now they want to screw around with it further by doubling our delay on Shalks? They just love to *** around with Stamden's rotation that everyone's been comfortable with for years.

KniteShayd

This is really only a boon to meta-wardens in PvP; especially on fleeing opponents, or charging groups.
I wish that instead of making flavor changes to existing abilities (like this an automatic re-fire), ZOS would just simply expand the existing morphs on skills (outside of adding new ones, gods forbid, 6 years later...).
This could've been a great 2nd morph on the skill, along with options to alter the range (i.e. a 5m 360° option for agressive melee builds; or a targeted ranged aoe option, a la Inevitable Detonation, for staff & bow builds).

#ButThatsJustMe

Alchimiste1

"Just light attack instead of casting a skill!" is me saying that just by doing something with less effort you'd gain more sustain. On top of that as I said people are going to benefit from an extra 20% regen gained from using potions. Also if you can weave in another skill your dps goes up which means you get better overall sustain because the kill is faster.

Skjaldbjorn

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

"Just light attack instead of casting a skill!" is me saying that just by doing something with less effort you'd gain more sustain. On top of that as I said people are going to benefit from an extra 20% regen gained from using potions. Also if you can weave in another skill your dps goes up which means you get better overall sustain because the kill is faster.

Do you play Stamina Warden in trials? Serious question.

Alchimiste1

I've lost interesting in this discussion, just keep your old rotation of casting sub every 2 skills. ez

Skjaldbjorn

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I've lost interesting in this discussion, just keep your old rotation of casting sub every 2 skills. ez

Bruh, if you don't play the class, I cannot explain to you why this change is awful. If we weren't tied down to the abysmal bird change some patches ago, i'd probably view this differently. But we are.

Mr_Arce88

From PvP perspective this is a enormous nerf to Warden. Wardens have already a lot on their bars and now they have to find a way to put there also source of breach, which also means loss in burst as it is one skill more that does not do a lot damage Sure for PvE trials group this is a no biggy, some other person will apply debuff, but for PvP... Also yes I know that S&B now can apply both but ony on 1 person and only from close up and not in the burst.

OlumoGarbag

Just slot the green healing skill for light attacks you get 250 stam per light attack if you are not the lowest ally and you stam is lower than your mag.

Skjaldbjorn

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Just slot the green healing skill for light attacks you get 250 stam per light attack if you are not the lowest ally and you stam is lower than your mag.

Again, in PVE, Warden cannot afford the bar space or the global. It isn't worth it. We're already having to use netch. Another non-DPS skill is a no go.

Waffennacht

It definitely looks to be PvP oriented. And with the amount of complaining stamdens have been receiving, it makes sense.

I doubt there be any substantial changes beyond what they've listed.

Skjaldbjorn

Waffennacht wrote: »

It definitely looks to be PvP oriented. And with the amount of complaining stamdens have been receiving, it makes sense.

I doubt there be any substantial changes beyond what they've listed.

Probably not. Seems to be the way of things.

PVPers: Crocodile tears
Zos: Nerf Stam Warden's PVP strength
Balance Team: Nerfs Stam Warden across the board
PVE Stamdens: Are we a joke to you?

The answer is yes. Definitively, yes.

CaffeinatedMayhem

nsmurfer wrote: »

Shalks is not spammable. This change is a buff to sustain as now for every cast, you get a free cast.

Technically, no, shalk is not spammable, however, it is necessary to cast as often as possible, being the bulk of warden's (meager) damage.

I'm all for the free extra cast. Makes more damage while I'm on my back bar, uses less resources, and DPS warden's don't need the (new) breach.

Now, for PvP warden can use the breach version, and for tanks that want to use that Breach instead of something reasonable like pierce armor. (for solo work I use elemental drain... or used to I guess. still, there are other ways to fracture armor when working solo)

MashmalloMan

I like the change. This patch wasn't meant for class balance or identity, lets not pretend they ever claimed it to be, we need to keep waiting on that unfortunately... All things considered, It was a good change as a quick pass to offer something different from the magicka morph so they're not completely the same. Hell.. Look at what Magicka Necro's have to deal with for the Blast Bones, the morph still provides nothing substantial.

So imo..Double the damage per cast, easier rotation management, major breach is easy AF to get in pve, especially with the potential rise of using universal skills like Razor Caltrops or Ele Drain which now provide both spell and physical penetration.

A part of why I think Wardens are so weak in group pve from a design perspective is because they have access to so many buffs/debuffs easily accessible within the class which I guarantee you, was considered for their overall power budget. It makes them an extremely strong solo class, but obviously this solo power is reduced in group content where those buffs/debuffs become quickly redundant. Maybe, the path to bettering Warden is the unfortunate reality that they need to lose some of the easily accessible buffs/debuffs they have at their disposal.

In the end, I really only see this hurting pvp wardens because they lose some of that solo power, but again there is alternatives to get your major breach and you can still rely on another player to provide it like most classes do currently.

I'm sorry but the sustain argument is such a huge stretch. Just because you cast it once every 6s instead of 3s and it's cheaper than an alternative skill, does not mean your sustain is hurt. +20-30% stamina regen this patch due to the minor/major endurance changes needs to be accounted for. Coupled that with the fact that you'll have an easier time casting cheap ultimates, like bear when they're ready due to an easier rotation or more casts on Executioner which is dirt cheap, your going to see more sustain than before. Lets be real with the comparison as well, Birds only cost 260 more stamina before cost reduction modifiers, we're not talking a massive amount here.

In terms of providing group utility. They will need to address this with a unique debuff the same way they did with Stam Sorc and Stam DK.. they're not perfect, but both had steps in the right direction. Aoe major fracture is not special. Just use Razor Caltrops when a Mag Necro isn't available.

ZarkingFrued

I'm not a fan of the change. At least it has some bonus to the skill with the double cast, but the debuff was what made the class worth running in pvp. Probably won't play it anymore.

NoSoup

OP's reasonning is wrecked, I get to skip so a cast and now have to cast something else so my sustain goes down. You could A. Cast nothing and your sustain/dps stay the same. B. Cast something else until you find your sustain sweetspot in which case your DPS goes up.

I don't believe you've actually been on the PTS and tested this as you're bringing nothing but unsound reasoning to the table. Come back with before and after parses....

Skjaldbjorn

NoSoup wrote: »

OP's reasonning is wrecked, I get to skip so a cast and now have to cast something else so my sustain goes down. You could A. Cast nothing and your sustain/dps stay the same. B. Cast something else until you find your sustain sweetspot in which case your DPS goes up.

I don't believe you've actually been on the PTS and tested this as you're bringing nothing but unsound reasoning to the table. Come back with before and after parses....

I was only able to get around 3 decent parses in because the game continuously crashed while parsing. Seemed perfectly stable when not directly in combat, not sure what the deal was. Don't think it was addon related, either. Condensed down to ADR, CMX and Bandit and still getting crashes every parse. Obviously, with lavafoot, parses weren't the issue as far as sustain. I am concerned overall about sustain, though. Not even memeing. Stamden sustain was already awful. However, if the buffs to major endurance allow us to drop netch, i'll gladly recant my statement and call it a win. I don't see it happening, though.

Skjaldbjorn

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I like the change. This patch wasn't meant for class balance or identity, lets not pretend they ever claimed it to be, we need to keep waiting on that unfortunately... All things considered, It was a good change as a quick pass to offer something different from the magicka morph so they're not completely the same. Hell.. Look at what Magicka Necro's have to deal with for the Blast Bones, the morph still provides nothing substantial.

So imo..Double the damage per cast, easier rotation management, major breach is easy AF to get in pve, especially with the potential rise of using universal skills like Razor Caltrops or Ele Drain which now provide both spell and physical penetration.

Fully aware this wasn't a "class balance" patch. Warden (particularly Stam) has been consistently ignored for those, too. There were a host of better options than this to bring power into Stamden's kit. This is rushed, half-assed and just adds more unpleasantness to an already wonky as hell rotation with the bird bleed.

A part of why I think Wardens are so weak in group pve from a design perspective is because they have access to so many buffs/debuffs easily accessible within the class which I guarantee you, was considered for their overall power budget. It makes them an extremely strong solo class, but obviously this solo power is reduced in group content where those buffs/debuffs become quickly redundant. Maybe, the path to bettering Warden is the unfortunate reality that they need to lose some of the easily accessible buffs/debuffs they have at their disposal.

I concur, as nonsensical as it is, that does seem to be the general approach. I can't for the life of my understand it.

In the end, I really only see this hurting pvp wardens because they lose some of that solo power, but again there is alternatives to get your major breach and you can still rely on another player to provide it like most classes do currently.

I'm sorry but the sustain argument is such a huge stretch. Just because you cast it once every 6s instead of 3s and it's cheaper than an alternative skill, does not mean your sustain is hurt. +20-30% stamina regen this patch due to the minor/major endurance changes needs to be accounted for. Coupled that with the fact that you'll have an easier time casting cheap ultimates, like bear when they're ready due to an easier rotation or more casts on Executioner which is dirt cheap, your going to see more sustain than before. Lets be real with the comparison as well, Birds only cost 260 more stamina before cost reduction modifiers, we're not talking a massive amount here.

We won't know until the patch is live in legit trial scenarios whether or not the sustain will dip enough to really hurt. We'll have to see. I did miss the change to Major Endurance initially, so with that in mind i'm hoping Stamden sustain can move above terrible. 260 every 5-6 seconds is pretty significant, though, whether you think that's a "stretch" or not.

In terms of providing group utility. They will need to address this with a unique debuff the same way they did with Stam Sorc and Stam DK.. they're not perfect, but both had steps in the right direction. Aoe major fracture is not special. Just use Razor Caltrops when a Mag Necro isn't available.

I won't hold my breath on a unique buff. They seem rigidly determined to leave Warden in the dirt, sadly.

Ingram

100% agree with you on everything you have said in this thread. I honestly think this was knee jerk reaction from horrible players crying on the forums that stam warden is too strong in pvp when in all honestly stamwarden has been in a good spot for the last year not the most overpowering class but certainly a high ranking one for pvp. With the removal of major fracture Stamdens are going to lose their group uniquness for not just pve but pvp groups as well. This is just another example of the devs removing skill based timings from a class as keeping your fracture up at all times and timing your burst around the second shalk hitting was the key to mastering warden for pvp. Fracture was the one debuff that felt unqiue to warden I know other classes had was to apply the debuff but aoe fracture was wardens thing. Without Fracture the second shalk hitting wont really matter and timing of your burst will now just be hit shalks once do everything you can in 6 seconds hit shalks again instead of managing major fracture timing.

Joxer61

on the flipside does this mean that Magden is going to see even more love cuz they can bring both now, in aoe form?

Artorias24

From a PvP perspektive:

Its a big damage loss. Wardens burst combo is already really predictable and loosing a big chunk of damage isnt going to help. This automatic recast also doesnt feel right at all. Its clunky and we are all used to recast it every 3 seconds. Pls give breach to both morphs and give each one a unique special effect. Dont remove breach.... Pls.

Luckylancer

This is a buff for PvE and nerf for PvP. Stamden lost a group utility but it was not significant in first place. Free cast is not better sustain, it is free a GCD. This will buff stamden dps but imo they will be still weak.

My stamden was 100% PvP so I am unhappy.

SidraWillowsky

I agree that it's really dumb to remove Fracture (or whatever it's called now).

One good thing to come of this, I think, is that bow/bow just became viable again when used in concert with the new arena bow. Granted, it's a melee bow/bow build which kind of defeats the purpose, but it feels REALLY strong-

I used precise perfected Vasjhdkswhatever Arena bow on the front bar with damage health poisons. Perfected Maelstrom back bar; infused + weapon damage enchant. Relequen + Twice Fanged- still need to figure out a second set since TFS isn't great for optimized groups, especially since penetration is going to be through the roof with some changes- probably Tzogvin's, which also eliminates the need for Trap, which allows for more snipe spamming...

The rotation I'm working with now that got me to 50k on the 6 mil is netch -> trap -> hail -> swap -> sub assault -> growing swarm -> Focused Aim x4 (used for the reduced cost + minor whatever; Lethal Arrow may be situationally better but I haven't tested extensively enough to be sure) -> sub assault -> focused aim x5 -> more or less repeat.

Not having to recast sub assault is huge when it comes to being able to spam focused aim.

Might also be worth slotting birds on your front bar to spam when an enemy goes off-balance since I'm wondering if that would still be stronger against off-balance targets than snipe.

Casul

Whew I'm glad I got off this train after 4 years. Too bad I joined the NB train and not the sorcerer one. Ah well least I have shadow image.

manny254

I don't understand why the magicka morph was the version that kept the debuff.

On release of Morrowind, the stam morph had both debuffs attached to it. It would make much more sense for the stam morph to return to how it started.